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#31 Neon Z

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 03:56 AM

Now there are several different theories that could be explained here. One could say that Link never made it back from Termina to save Hyrule from Ganondorf's return.

Generations pass between Ganon's defeat and Ganon's counter attack. Even if Link had returned to Hyrule, he wouldn't be alive to face Ganon. In my opnion, no theory is really necessary to explain that, if you take in account the time gap.

I just noticed your response Neon Z and I thought that the alternate realities were created by an entity that infused with Schala, hence the name the Time Devourer. Though you can correct me on this if I am wrong, never played Crono Cross that much, but I loved the original Crono Trigger.


SPOILERS For Chrono Cross





The entity which fused with Schala to create the Time Devourer is Lavos. But it wasn't the responsible for the creation of a new timeline, it just had influence on the one which was not under FATE's control.

EDIT: Meh... Chrono Cross timelines are confusing... I've just remembered that the dimension which had a surviving Lavos is not one of the two playable in the game. Those two were created later on, when Schaila tried to save the main charachter... IIRC, the dimension with the surviving Lavos was erasen by FATE.

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 09:33 PM

Now I know I stated that there are several different theories one could take, but I did mention about the generations span. Basically to summarize what I said before, was that maybe the Hylians thought that Link could transcend any time and save them, since he was the "Hero of Time", but we know by playing the game that he could not.

As for the Crono Cross deal Neon Z thanks for clearing that up, the storyline for it was not as straightforward as the one in Crono Trigger.

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Posted 16 December 2004 - 09:57 PM

single timeline...ive always believed that since the dawn of Zelda...

#34 Guest_BlackHawkA100_*

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 05:20 PM

I had a really nice long retort all typed up (a few times actually) but it seems that every computer that I've used for the past few days simply hates me, so I'll do my best to explain my view briefly.

If they knew that the man Ganondorf (not the monster, Ganon) was attacking the castle, and did not think that he was their ally (thus giving him an edge) the strength of the Castle and it's gaurds would have been able to hold out. It wasn't until after Ganon had returned from the Sacred Realm that the real attack occured, the other was simply a raid as far as I can see.

The Chrono Trigger point is moot.

Your Timeline: Link defeats Ganon and is sent back in time, Ganon is sealed in both times (though it really doesn't matter, because by your timeline the adult timeline ceased to exist when Link was sent back) the little boy who nobody knew about because as far as they knew he had never really done anything of merit leaves for Termina and perhaps never returns, Ganon escapes and ravages Hyrule, the great flood.

My Timeline: Link defeats Ganon and is sent back in time to his child life thus eliminating him from the adult timeline, the legend of the hero who traveled through time and then dissapeared just as quickly lives on in the adult timeline, Ganon escapes and the people wait for the hero's return, but he never comes back as he is incapable of doing so, Ganon ravages the land, the great flood.

In the child timeline Link leaves for Termina after a period of time living in Hyrule, this has no effect on later games, as time passes Ganondorf finds other means of entering the Sacred Realm and Imprisoning War as told in ALttP occurs, Link is not around at that point, perhaps never returned from Termina, who knows.

I hope that clears up my stance, I'll post a longer response to all of your points as time permits. Sorry for the long wait.

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 05:38 PM

Long ago, there existed a kingdom where a golden power lay hidden. It was a prosperous land blessed with green forests, tall mountains, and peace.

But one day, a man of great evil found the golden power and took it for himself. With its strength at his command, he spread darkness throughout the kingdom. But then, when all hope had died and the hour of doom seemed at hand...

...a young boy clothed in green appeared as if from nowhere. Wielding the blade of evil's bane, he sealed the dark one away and gave the land light.


By my split timeline theory, the Imprisoning War according the adult timeline, though that's not what it's called.

Now there are several different theories that could be explained here. One could say that Link never made it back from Termina to save Hyrule from Ganondorf's return. We do know however that he was sealed by the hero, but we do not know what happened to the hero. Another theory could be that since the people of Hyrule believed that Link was a Hero of Time, they may have thought he could have transcended any timeline, because his tale was passed down through generations until it became legend. But we know that Link could only travel from his childhood past, to his adulthood future, not to any timeline he deemed worthy to enter. The citizens of Hyrule could have misunderstood this, and maybe that is why they believed that the hero would return. Ganondorf did claim that he would gain revenge on thier descendants, so perhaps this is somewhat farther from the last events of the Ocarina of Time than one may have anticipated.

Now my argument is that Link didn't cease his adult timeline or else it would not have become legend. Also Ganondorf would not remember a battle with the Hero of Time if it had not happened, and the words from the King of Red Lions make things look all the more promising.


I hope my attempt at explaining my OoT timeline helped to clear this up, but I do not believe that the adult timeline never happened, that would be you, whether you realize it or not. Rather, I believe that when Link returned to his childhood he was taken out of the adult timeline, to exist solely in the child timeline, the adult timeline became a world of it's own, with a history the same as that of the child timeline up to the point of OoT.

My explanation of Link's absence is that he no longer existed in the adult timeline, yes, he had preformed all of the feats as told in OoT, explaining why he became legend there but he simply no longer existed there. Do you understand what I'm getting at here?

#36 Guest_Darkseid_*

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 10:01 PM

Sorry about this BlackHawkA100, but I still fail to see that I am trying to take away the adult Link timeline. The King of Red Lions stated that Link defeated Ganon and brought peace to Hyrule. He and Zelda both had the Triforce of Wisdom and the Triforce of Courage, but when Link went to Termina, he was seperated from the Triforce of Courage. Legends of the Wind Waker recall his events in the Adult Timeline, the King of Red Lions remembers both the adult timeline, and the childhood timeline. To me they both coexisted, but if I am somehow trying to take away the adult timeline, please tell me what it is that I am saying that is taking it away.

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 10:48 PM

The King never said "Termina." His words could mean Termina, but I always interpreted it as meaning that he lost the ToC when Zelda sent him back. After all, the Hylian writing in the intro says that the hero "escaped into the mists of time" or something to that effect.

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Posted 18 December 2004 - 10:59 PM

Sorry about this BlackHawkA100, but I still fail to see that I am trying to take away the adult Link timeline. The King of Red Lions stated that Link defeated Ganon and brought peace to Hyrule. He and Zelda both had the Triforce of Wisdom and the Triforce of Courage, but when Link went to Termina, he was seperated from the Triforce of Courage. Legends of the Wind Waker recall his events in the Adult Timeline, the King of Red Lions remembers both the adult timeline, and the childhood timeline. To me they both coexisted, but if I am somehow trying to take away the adult timeline, please tell me what it is that I am saying that is taking it away.


I apologize, but as I see it, if you say that there is no adult timeline, you say that it stops existing, therefore you say that it never happened right? Wait...that was just me jumping to a conclusion. It's probably just the fact that I'm thinking split timeline at the moment, but what is your theory on the OoT timeline? I'm surethat would to wonders in helping me understand your thinking. I really do apologize if I offended you, as that was not the intent of my post.

I believe that my confusion comes from the fact that you take for granted the fact that the events of OoT adult Link must still happen. I have yet to see your explanation of how it all takes place (without the use of time travel, as Zelda said that was not the way it was meant to happen and sends Link back in time). Logically the events of the Future cannot effect the events of the Past, and yet you argue that it can which also confuses me. Anyway, I would greatly appreciate an explanation of your OoT timeline, not that of any of the other games, only of OoT from beginning to end, it would make my analysis of your posts much simpler and less prone to misunderstanding.

Again, I apologize if I offended you in any way. I look forward to a response to this and my previous posts.

#39 Doopliss

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 12:55 AM

Ah, well people, I'll tell you, not everything is easy in this world, and I do believe that explaining the Zelda storyline is not one of them.

I believe in single timeline theories, they are far more difficult to elaborate than multiple timelines theories, but they are more persuasive and they are not the easy way out, you know, the games can almost be placed in any order with multiple timelines theories.

BlackHawkA100, I like your theory, but you are contradicting yourself: you say that TWW takes place in the Adult Link timeline, don't you? Well, then why is Link referred as a young boy in TWW's backstory if it's happening in the Adult Link timeline?

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 01:26 PM

"Adult" Link could still be considered a kid, or a young man more properly.
After he defeats Phantom Ganon in the Forest Temple, Ganondorf calls him "Kid"

Plus, we don't know how old exactly that Link was.
using looks alone you can surmise that young link was probably about 9-14 which would make adult Link 16-21.
The fact is, that we don't know. Whatever age he truly is though, my point is that "adult" Link is still pretty young.

#41 Kairu Hakubi

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 01:50 PM

'using looks alone' i'd put young link at 6-10 -max- but that's my ope-inyun. still, i should hope he's reached nearly his total adult height by 12 .. and young link is much much shorter than adult link.

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 04:31 PM

I apologize, but as I see it, if you say that there is no adult timeline, you say that it stops existing, therefore you say that it never happened right? Wait...that was just me jumping to a conclusion. It's probably just the fact that I'm thinking split timeline at the moment, but what is your theory on the OoT timeline? I'm surethat would to wonders in helping me understand your thinking. I really do apologize if I offended you, as that was not the intent of my post.
 
I believe that my confusion comes from the fact that you take for granted the fact that the events of OoT adult Link must still happen. I have yet to see your explanation of how it all takes place (without the use of time travel, as Zelda said that was not the way it was meant to happen and sends Link back in time). Logically the events of the Future cannot effect the events of the Past, and yet you argue that it can which also confuses me. Anyway, I would greatly appreciate an explanation of your OoT timeline, not that of any of the other games, only of OoT from beginning to end, it would make my analysis of your posts much simpler and less prone to misunderstanding.  
 
 Again, I apologize if I offended you in any way.  I look forward to a response to this and my previous posts.


It's alright you never offended me, I just couldn't understand as to how I was taking away the adult timeline, but I think I am starting to grasp what you were saying. First though my timeline would go like this.

Ocarina of Time (childhood timeline)
Majora's Mask
Ocarina of Time (adult timeline)
Generations pass and backstory to the Wind Waker
Hundreds of years later and...
The Wind Waker

Okay I think you meant by me saying that if the Ocarina of Time sealing happened both in the past and in the future, then I would be taking away the future timeline, by sealing Ganondorf in the past. That actually makes sense, but it was not what I had intended. I had meant that Link had sealed up Ganon in the future timeline, he went back to the childhood timeline. The events that had occured in the future would still be remembered, but as Link went back in time and went on his Termina adventure, he never did re-seal Ganon back into the void, thus allowing Ganon to escape in the future timeline, allowing the civilians of Hyrule to appease to the gods for help.

Though after I started thinking about this, and re-looking at the Wind Waker backstory I believe that Link did his events in the future, then went back in the past and did his Termina adventure. Then as he returned the future events once again happen and Ganon is sealed in the void. According to the Wind Waker backstory, generations pass of the Hero of Time's legend, and when Ganon freed himself from his accursed realm, the people believed that the Hero of Time would once again save them, but he couldn't because he done lived his life, and it was generations after he defeated Ganon, so he couldn't help them. This is why the people of Hyrule asked for the goddesses' help, and with that they froze the ancient land in time and flooded the world. Hundreds of years later, and the people speak of the legend on Outset Island.

This theory might be a bit revised from the last one, but hey no one is perfect. Still if you have questions about my new theory please comment on it as well.

#43 Doopliss

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 09:00 PM

"Adult" Link could still be considered a kid, or a young man more properly.
After he defeats Phantom Ganon in the Forest Temple, Ganondorf calls him "Kid"

Plus, we don't know how old exactly that Link was.
using looks alone you can surmise that young link was probably about 9-14 which would make adult Link 16-21.
The fact is, that we don't know. Whatever age he truly is though, my point is that "adult" Link is still pretty young.

I think he called him in that way just to be despective, plus, in the booklet he's referred as an adult, and he's not called just a boy in TWW's backstory but a young boy.

By the way, is there anything to determine if the party at Lon Lon Ranch happened in the adul or young time?

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Posted 19 December 2004 - 10:08 PM

The celebration happened in the adult timeline, as Malon was a young adult in the ending. The only parts of the childhood ending we see, are Link leaving the Temple of Time, Navi flying out of the window in the Temple, and Link visiting Zelda at Hyrule Castle.

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 06:31 PM

BlackHawkA100, I like your theory, but you are contradicting yourself: you say that TWW takes place in the Adult Link timeline, don't you? Well, then why is Link referred as a young boy in TWW's backstory if it's happening in the Adult Link timeline?


A lot of people have already commented on this, but I'll do it again. Relatively speaking, a young boy could be anywhere up to his twenties, and I generally don't think of Link getting to be anything over that. Also, even though he was in an adult body, he still had the mind of a child, and since everybody on these boards always cites the unreliability of backstories, the true age could have been lost in the ages that passed.

Though after I started thinking about this, and re-looking at the Wind Waker backstory I believe that Link did his events in the future, then went back in the past and did his Termina adventure. Then as he returned the future events once again happen and Ganon is sealed in the void. According to the Wind Waker backstory, generations pass of the Hero of Time's legend, and when Ganon freed himself from his accursed realm, the people believed that the Hero of Time would once again save them, but he couldn't because he done lived his life, and it was generations after he defeated Ganon, so he couldn't help them. This is why the people of Hyrule asked for the goddesses' help, and with that they froze the ancient land in time and flooded the world. Hundreds of years later, and the people speak of the legend on Outset Island.


That makes sense, though you would have to eliminate time travel from the equation to accomodate that theory. If you do that then there's no use in calling him the Hero of Time, right? Time travel is taken out because it wasn't used, you said that it happens over again the exact same way, without. Anyway, this is a short response, I'll post another as time allows.

#46 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 11:22 AM

A lot of people have already commented on this, but I'll do it again. Relatively speaking, a young boy could be anywhere up to his twenties, and I generally don't think of Link getting to be anything over that. Also, even though he was in an adult body, he still had the mind of a child, and since everybody on these boards always cites the unreliability of backstories, the true age could have been lost in the ages that passed.

You should also take into account the statue of Adult Link (Hero of Time) within the Castle in TWW.

That makes sense, though you would have to eliminate time travel from the equation to accomodate that theory. If you do that then there's no use in calling him the Hero of Time, right? Time travel is taken out because it wasn't used, you said that it happens over again the exact same way, without. Anyway, this is a short response, I'll post another as time allows.


Which would be a good spot for a split timeline-esque explanation.

In the TWW timeline the Hero of Time went back into the past, and is now separate of that timeline...as TWW timeline goes on. So he's regarded as the Hero of Time in this timeline.
When Hero of Time returns to the past, that timeline goes on as it's own timeline as well, only this one will have Link staying. In this timeline the IW happens a different way, without Link travelling through time or anything like that.

This is like the worse and briefest way I ever explained my split theory, but I'm tired of always posting it.



#47 Doopliss

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 09:17 PM

That makes sense, though you would have to eliminate time travel from the equation to accomodate that theory. If you do that then there's no use in calling him the Hero of Time, right? Time travel is taken out because it wasn't used, you said that it happens over again the exact same way, without. Anyway, this is a short response, I'll post another as time allows.

He would still travel in time to appear as if from nowhere (as the leyend says.)

Your argument about Adult Link being able to be called a young boy is good, but it doesn't convince me completely because he's never called that way in the game.

#48 SOAP

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 01:48 AM

This is like the worse and briefest way I ever explained my split theory, but I'm tired of always posting it.

For some reason that made me laugh! Anyways, we know how it works, Tri. At least I'm ASSUMING everyone else knows all about how the Timeline Split works. I just think most people either don't buy it or feel it takes away from the series being about one big collective legend.

The Time Loop is a different story altogether. In fact it might even explain how it could happen after MM and still have a statue of Adult Link. Though, it's not really neccessary to go that far. It's not stated but it's very obvious Link returned to Hyrule after MM. People seem to think he never returned for some reason...:s:

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 03:10 AM

That makes sense, though you would have to eliminate time travel from the equation to accomodate that theory.  If you do that then there's no use in calling him the Hero of Time, right?  Time travel is taken out because it wasn't used, you said that it happens over again the exact same way, without.  Anyway, this is a short response, I'll post another as time allows.


Okay then I'll eliminate time from my theory:lol:. Well actually I was just kidding about eliminating time from my theory, but I do have a suggestion. When Link drawed the Master Sword from its pedastal he was too young to weild the blade of evil's bane, and the Sword placed him in a stasis field until he became worthy of the mighty weapon, so really he wasn't time traveling, just sleeping in suspended animation for seven years.

Still though Link could go back to his childhood days by placing the Master Sword back into its pedastal. Perhaps Link had made some bondage with the sacred blade, and the blade had placed him in some reverse stasis that allowed him to be the child that was not yet ready to weild it. The Master Sword is said to be like a key of sorts, distributing all sorts of powers besides just vanquishing evil, so who knows what powers it might display.

Wow, that does sound a bit far-fetched, still Link never really traveled through the future, but he did travel through the past, but I assume that the Hylians thought that the hero was a time traveler, and thus why they dubbed the nickname to him as the "Hero of Time". If one should really consider on which Link was a time traveler it would have to be the Oracle of Ages Link (same as the Oracle of Seasons Link, but he didn't time travel in that legend). In the Oracle of Ages he spanned four hundred years in the past, and four hundred years back to the present, that would most certainly be considered time travel. If any Link should be called a Hero of Time it should be the Oracle of Ages Link. Okay that was a bit of ranting on my part, lets get back to the subject.

So here is what I have come up with, Link pull the Master Sword out as a child, ends up in a stasis field, and ends up as an adult. Link as an adult puts the sword back into its pedestal and Link becomes a child again, by traveling back in time. Link then places the Master Sword back into its pedestal and goes through the stasis motion again, but of course he doesn't realize it, so to him it is just like going back and forth. Link defeats Ganon, and Zelda and the Six Sages place him in the tainted Sacred Realm. Zelda returns Link back to the past so that he can enjoy his childhood life, and he does. He visits Zelda at the end, and months later decides to go find his valuable friend in the legend of Majora's Mask. Link does all kinds of crap reinacting events of three days over and over and over again, until he defeats the demonic Mask of Majora. He saves the land of Termina, and lets assume he makes it back to Hyrule. Link this time does not go through a stasis enactment, but rather living the time that he had lost. Link then later defeats Ganon repeating the whole process. Generations pass, and the Hylians recall a legendary hero who could travel freely through time, or so they believed.

They believed this so much that when Ganon had freed himself from his accursed prison that the Hero of Time could simply just warp in thier era and save them. This however did not happen and Ganon almost plunged the world in to total darkness. The Hylians appealed to the gods, yadda, yadda, yadda, you know the picture and we move on to the Great Sea saga.

These legends had been passed down for many years and they tell the story of the Hero of Time, and the people spoken of in the backstory legend must've even made a statue of this hero, so his story was never ever forgotten. The King of Red Lions recalls a bunch of excerpts, and yakkity smackity, well you get the concept.

Okay I started getting bored of explaining towards the end, but still I don't think it looks to rough to understand.

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 03:43 AM

Darkseid, thats exactly what I was thinking while playing TWW. Because a split timeline does (or I feel it does) take away from the legend as a whole. Took the words right out of my mouth.

#51 FDL

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 08:35 AM

This may sound stupid to some people and if the rumors of the "Bridle of Melancholy" are true I doubt this will happen but perhaps LOZ:2005 will have Link unifying the two timelines and having to battle Ganon once again. Then at the end he can leave Hyrule and continue his search for Navi.

#52 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 01:15 PM

Hrm....Unifying the Timelines? (assuming for the sake of debate that they do exist) How would that even work? Would they like, remerge again and share the same materials, making it twice as large? Would everyone meet their other selves? and what would we do about the world having two histories? (Oh god! We've argued over this before! ><)

#53 FDL

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 08:38 PM

No I mean Hyrule and all its people merge with their other versions. This is, of course, if there are two timelines.

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 08:58 PM

It's complicated isn't it. Or so it seems. In my mind melding the two timelines wouldn't be too difficult to explain, although it wouldn't really be a melding at all, simply a sharing of the same history to a certain point, a separation at a difference in history, and a melding at the point that history once again (if ever it does) becomes the same in both lines. But that's beside the point.

So here is what I have come up with, Link pull the Master Sword out as a child, ends up in a stasis field, and ends up as an adult. Link as an adult puts the sword back into its pedestal and Link becomes a child again, by traveling back in time. Link then places the Master Sword back into its pedestal and goes through the stasis motion again, but of course he doesn't realize it, so to him it is just like going back and forth. Link defeats Ganon, and Zelda and the Six Sages place him in the tainted Sacred Realm. Zelda returns Link back to the past so that he can enjoy his childhood life, and he does. He visits Zelda at the end, and months later decides to go find his valuable friend in the legend of Majora's Mask. Link does all kinds of crap reinacting events of three days over and over and over again, until he defeats the demonic Mask of Majora. He saves the land of Termina, and lets assume he makes it back to Hyrule. Link this time does not go through a stasis enactment, but rather living the time that he had lost. Link then later defeats Ganon repeating the whole process. Generations pass, and the Hylians recall a legendary hero who could travel freely through time, or so they believed.
 
They believed this so much that when Ganon had freed himself from his accursed prison that the Hero of Time could simply just warp in thier era and save them. This however did not happen and Ganon almost plunged the world in to total darkness. The Hylians appealed to the gods, yadda, yadda, yadda, you know the picture and we move on to the Great Sea saga.
 
These legends had been passed down for many years and they tell the story of the Hero of Time, and the people spoken of in the backstory legend must've even made a statue of this hero, so his story was never ever forgotten. The King of Red Lions recalls a bunch of excerpts, and yakkity smackity, well you get the concept.

A lot of that seems really really apparent to me and doesn't do much to back up a single timeline theory, as for the rest... What I really want to know is where does the legend of the Hero of Time come from if in the end, as far as the people of Hyrule see, there is no time travel? Time travel in this case does mean his sleeping in a stasis of sorts until he reappears at the time which he is old enough to wield the sword of Evil's Bane. In the case of your theory, the entire legend of the Hero of Time as told in TWW is completely incorrect and has no roots in the people of Hyrule. This is one of the reasons I tend to stick with the split timeline theory, in my opinion it best explains inconsistencies.

He would still travel in time to appear as if from nowhere (as the leyend says.)

I still can't accept that, first of all because you didn't explain yourself. If Link still appears as out of nowhere to save Hyrule what was the point of Princess Zelda sending him back in time to relive his childhood? If Link went back to relive his childhood how did he go forward in time to become legend as the Hero of Time? Curious isn't it? I haven't yet found somebody who can satisfactorily explain this to me. If there is anybody out there I'd love to hear it, I want to know what's going through single timeline theorist's heads.

Sometimes the simplest way of explaining things is in fact the correct one. Often times people blow their solutions so far out of proportion that they lose track of the problem at hand.

EDIT: Also, Darkseid, your grammar seems to be slipping (either that or I never noticed before) I would suggest being more careful with it in the future, it's hard to take even the best of arguments seriously if they're written carelessly.

#55 Doopliss

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 10:09 PM

BlackHawkA100, I won't quote your post since this is following yours.

When Zelda sent Link back to the past to "live his life" he logically traveled in time, from the future to the past, that's why the legend says that he appeared as if from nowhere. I believe that Link went to Termina and never returned to Hyrule, because otherwise there would be two Links at the same time.

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 10:24 PM

Yes he logically traveled back in time, but that has nothing to do with the legendary Hero of Time as far as your single timeline goes does it? When he traveled back he traveled to become a child, not to become the hero. The legend speaks of the hero who appeared and saved the land of Hyrule from Ganon.

#57 Doopliss

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 10:33 PM

I do believe he traveled to a time before OoT even happened, the people just confused him with the "other" Link. That's the best way to accomodate a single timeline theory from my point of view.

#58 Guest_BlackHawkA100_*

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 10:44 PM

...alright... If I wasn't before, I am now officially confused.

#59 Doopliss

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 10:47 PM

Just ask me.

#60 Guest_BlackHawkA100_*

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 10:59 PM

Really, the question is too big to simply state. What exactly did you mean by that last post? I can't understand it.




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