238 replies to this topic

[DarkJuno]

Sidenote: "This Mission just got a lot more cock."

Being able to hear all those Google Subs in the character's voices makes it that much more priceless.


Anyway, my EMS basically fell to crap so I didn't play it last night. Messing with datapad all day today while on break and whatnot should make it good enough for me to take the dive tonight. Granted, I was never that upset over it as others, but I'm curious since it's such a big file.

[SL the Pyro]

Well, I just saw the new endings, and I have to say this is much better. Honestly don't see why they didn't do this before since all it required was a few extra lines, screenies and animations, but maybe that's just me...

...Although I have to admit that the Rejection ending made me chuckle. Contrary to their earlier efforts, this was a nice "STFU" from Bioware to the ME fanatics. The original three endings were fine, they just needed some more fleshing out, and now that this was done the hardcore fans have to live with it. They wanted a new ending? The Rejection ending is Bioware's method of "be careful what you wish for."

[Selena]

Actually, there's a big chunk of fans that requested the rejection ending and are pleased to have had it added, so the notion that it's a "fuck you" from Bioware is false. They were catering to fan wishes.

[SteveT]

I think that notion it was a spiteful ending came from how it was handled.

"Oh, you don't like my superior space logic? You think you know better? WELL GUESS WHAT? REAPERS WIN. SUCK IT, fans SHEPHERD!"

And given that the people who requested the rejection option wanted it solely because they, as people, rejected the logic presented by the star child, turning their desire into a non-standard game over was kind of a slap in the face.

Edited by SteveT, 10 July 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[Selena]

Well, more accurately, this cycle "loses," but Rejection's new stargazer scene implies that all your efforts throughout the series - along with Liara's archives - allow the next cycle to outright defeat them without being forced into a questionable ultimatum. So the Reapers lose. Rejection just takes the longer, more sacrificial route to victory. There is no way to win the final battle in a conventional way. You either use the Crucible, or you invest all your chips into the next cycle of life and do as much short-term damage as you can. It's the honor before reason ending. But it's still a victory -- just one you aren't around to see. Which is technically true for every ending apart from Destroy.

I thought it was the worst of the endings, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it a "slap in the face."

A bit surprising when I did my "shoot the starchild" tradition on my way up the Destroy ramp. Not a slap in the face. It's the most painful one, because you lose everything you personally cared about, but the Reapers lose in the next cycle and life goes on. With your pride intact in the digital afterlife for telling the evil squid machines to go fuck themselves.


(Not that any of the endings are good. Or the majority of the game. I've been enjoying multiplayer sessions way more than the actual game, which is quite sad.)

[Fin]

having seen the rejection ending, i'd say it comes across as an unintentional slap in the face (at least to players like me). i don't think bioware were being spiteful in the least, but they were so wrapped up in the logic of their desired ending that it presumably never occurred to them that a player who rejects the starchild's logic would specifically be looking for a victory that reflects that decision. a reapers win ending should be triggered by having too few war assets, since those were the terms for losing that the game laid out from the start. being punished for making the wrong choice is a stupid way to lose.

linking to dan hemmens again

Edited by Fin, 11 July 2012 - 10:32 AM.

[Selena]

Most fans agree that the Starchild / Crucible / final ultimatum were the main problems with the story in general. But we all knew those weren't going to change, so the EC completes what it was meant to do. It changes the tone of the endings into something less vomit-worthy. That's all it was ever going to do. The "explanation" bits of the EC weren't the important parts. We'd already filled in those gaps with accurate head-canon. The EC's success is adding a much needed epilogue that takes the sting off the abrupt and uncomfortable original endings.

There is no "wrong" ending. There is no "right" ending. There is no punishment for picking one ending over another. The Reapers lose in every single scenario. Each ending has its own positive and negative outcomes. The player has to decide which one is best for them. Everyone dies in rejection, yes, but - again - the next cycle beats the Reapers without having to use the Crucible at all due to the advanced warning. Which is sensible within the context of what they set up. Just uncomfortable.

To get an ending that's actually good, you'd have to remake the entire game. ME3 (and the entire series) will ultimately go down as wasted potential. Dialogue and combat may have been improved, but the story itself took a nose-dive after ME1. And there's no excuse for having the Suicide Mission outshine the final conflict of the entire series after all that asset building.

Since you can't really fix a fuckup of that magnitude, all you can do is appreciate the EC for doing as much as it could and cut your losses.

[Fin]

well yeah, i understand that the ending is ultimately unsalvageable. but i'd still argue that killing off every main character you've grown to care about comes across as the 'bad' ending, especially when (iirc) there's no time taken to show them dying valiantly or, uhm, at all. mass effect has always explored its themes through the characters we actually get to know and care about. i don't give a rat's ass about anyone in the next cycle.

it's also much shorter than the other endings. oh, and supposedly you don't get the 'mission accomplished' achievement for it. which is... whatever. but still kind of a dick move.

Everyone dies in rejection, yes, but - again - the next cycle beats the Reapers without having to use the Crucible at all due to the advanced warning. Which is sensible within the context of what they set up. Just uncomfortable.

just gonna quote a bit from the bottom of that ferretbrain article, because it does a nice job of coming up with an alternative way to handle this without really sacrificing the logic of the scene.

One: Keep Shooting the Starchild but make it trigger Destroy. The Destroy ending already feels like a conventional military victory, it already involves Shepard shooting up the Citadel, and it quite specifically destroys the Starchild. Making the “shoot first ask questions later” approach trigger the “roll over and take it” ending is equivalent to having the sucker's ending in Jade Empire triggered by choosing to fight your master, rather than by choosing to let him take over.

Two: Keep the Failure Ending but make it trigger from low War Assets. A lot of people wanted a “Reapers Win” ending, but we wanted it to result from a failure to play the game properly, not from the perfectly reasonable decision not to trust a creature which you know to be your enemy, and also know to be personally responsible for literally trillions of deaths.

Three: Keep Rejection but make it a diplomatic victory. Let Shepard actually convince the Starchild that it is wrong, that by annihilating all life in the galaxy every fifty thousand years it is only perpetuating the problem it believes itself to be solving. Let rejecting the Starchild's “solution” mean something other than “let the Reapers wipe us out.”

Edited by Fin, 12 July 2012 - 12:37 PM.

[Selena]

Well, yeah, the endings are all broken logic either way. That was never going to be fixed. They just suck less now.



On a sidenote, found these little gems on the youtubes. Sam Hulick has an account and uploaded some eaaarly concepts of ME1's musical score. The original galaxy map track, and a version of the Mass Effect 1 theme written when all they had was a written description of what happens. It's pirate-y. It was done for that whole opening sequence with the prologue, main title, and Shepard walking through the Normandy. Enjoy!






They were going to have another ME1 DLC mission, but it was scrapped. This was a track for it:




Early Jack theme:





He's got lots of cool ME things on there -- including him playing "An End Once and For All" on his own keyboard.

[Shekey the Green]

My personal favorite of the "fuck you" ending is when the producer literally says "So Be It" and it cuts to Liara's thingy playing underground. Saw that gem after Ninja told me about it.

[DarkJuno]

All right, so now that the unexpected dramatic roadbump and all the accompanying baggage is more or less being dealt with, finally got around to playing it. Late to the party, but oh well.

Not a perfect ending by any means and I still disagree with the logic, but that was a much better and more satisfactory ending then the original version. Went Synthesis/Green, and I'm pleased with how they did take the time to cover the flat out plotholes that are there whether or not you conceptually agree with the ending, and it was nice they did throw in some epilogue scenes to show what everyone is doing - I also note that the obscured but maskless Quarian looks closer to some of the concept art in the Artbook then that crappy photoshop job Tali got. I think I'm good now, and while the cynical part of me thinks this was the whole point, I'm totally open for more single player DLC now, though now we get stuck with the same bit Dragon Age II had, except maybe a little more darkly humorous - both games are being told as a story to someone else, in that game it was Varric to Cassandra and here it's Buzz Aldrin to the kid. This just makes it seem like an old man who keeps remembering random stories after he's allegedly done with his tale, and I can picture his grandson rolling his eyes at his senile old grandpa getting lost in old stories again.

Ah well. Happy (enough) now. Though, did they also replace that "BUY DLC!!!" thing at the end? Reading it now comes across more like "We want to make more games set in this unvierse" then a blatent advertisement.

Edited by DarkJuno, 29 July 2012 - 08:28 PM.

[Nevermind]

Necro-romanced because I'm looking for some folks on XBox to play with in the multiplayer. I've been just jumping from PUG to PUG and that's fine on Bronze which is simple as all hell. Anything from Silver and above needs some proper teamwork and whilst I've been lucky at times with groups that mesh well, it'd be nice to have some regulars from here with which to effectively co-ordinate primes/detonations and the like and make the bump up to Gold. I don't suck at the game anymore, so I'm more than willing to help carry people through rounds and help them get the experience they need/want.

If you're unsure what it entails, the multiplayer works as co-op gameplay in its purest form. You pick your class same as the campaign but are only given a total of three powers, each set unique to a class and race. From there you use your attacks, powers, firepower to take out the waves of enemies, as well as combine said powers with any of the other three team-mates in order to pull off special combo attacks like Tech Bursts or Biotic Explosions for maximised damage. The mechanics in the multiplayer game are all geared towards team-mates contributing to the overall effort by adding their own individual powers and play-style, watching each others backs, and ensuring the objectives get done. Like I said, co-op at its finest! There are ten waves, each progressively harder, including three objective waves, and then a final extraction wave (so 11 in total). You may fight Geth, Reapers, or Cerberus troops, each faction with its own unique bosses. There is no PvP, so you're dealing with AI rather than assholes, and everyone gets an even split of experience points and credits, because it is a TEAM game.


So....





WHO'S UP FOR ADVENTURR?!




Yes, all of that shit can be done in its entirety.

Edited by Lazurukeel, 26 August 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[Chiaki]

I do still have a month subscription card I can redeem if people are interested in playing. Won't be able to play until tomorrow, though.

[Nevermind]

Yes, excellent, Chiaki. We should play again. I can also assure you I've become much better since last time.


Anyone else? Come on, it's fun. It's real fun. Join Chiaki, Lena (she's a given) and I in some whoosh-crikey, biosplosion fun!

[Fin]

When I get my X-Box Live set up in a millun years I'll join you guys in a game.

[Nevermind]

Excellent. What do you need to get set up?

[DarkJuno]

So, Leviathan?


...anyone? <.<


Well, I went through it, and it's actually not a bad mission path at all. It's much better then Javik's mission and is structured like a fully fledged mission rather then a sidequest, with the moving around multiple locations and doing more then just shooting groups of enemies. Story's also pretty decent, though playing it after the fact and especially after the Extended Cut is somewhat troubling. Major, major spoilers, even if you've beaten the game.

Spoiler

It seems to take place near the end, but given Shepard's lack of depression probably before Illos, though technically nothing stops it from taking place right before the Cerberus Base Assault - other then the weirdness of Shepard being ready to get some revenge but then deciding, nah, let's take a side trip instead. Anyway, so, you know how in the Extended Cut, the starchild tells you how the Reapers were built by an original race and they modeled themselves in their image before killing them of in the first cycle/harvest? Yeah, the Leviathans of myth aren't reapers, but the last remnants of that original race. While the one you speak to is kind of a dick, it does ultiamtely side with you and becomes a war asset. It's too bad Bioware probably isn't willing to add anything to the ending (again) because having these guys and seeing them outright on your side in the final push towards Earth would be a trip. Also some interesting tidbits, such as Harbinger being the first reaper, though that just makes his silence that much more maddening. I'm a little torn on the story though, because while stuff like this being sprinkled throughtout the game would've made the choices in the ending a lot clearer and not nearly as random, it's also DLC, and most of us are playing it after the fact, so there's no real way to gauge how it would fit in if the story implications were learned in the "proper" order rather then this way. While what the Crucible does remains a mystery in the storyline, now Hackett and the scientists and everyone around them all know about the reapers' origin.

So it's actually pretty well worth a playthrough, it's substantially longer then that first DLC and while I liked the Dragon Age II quests, this one is substantially longer and feels much meatier. The added flirty exchanges between Garrus and Tali are cute, I have to admit, and you also get the best cabin decoration ever - 'cept maybe for the hamster. Anyone else willing to play or am I just a victim of being "all in" for games even to my own detriment?

Edited by DarkJuno, 01 September 2012 - 09:08 PM.

[Nevermind]

It should be no question that I got this but I started a new game plus on insanity (after playing the multiplayer, insanity difficulty is a breeze) and have just completed Priority: Mars, so haven't yet reached anything Leviathan related. Also have yet to try out some of the sweet multiplayer guns in single-player with the Firefight Pack. The general consensus over at the Bioware forums seems to indicate the same as you've said: best DLC yet and worth a play through.

You also should have gone 360 and played multiplayer with me/us.

Edited by Lazurukeel, 01 September 2012 - 11:22 PM.

[Selena]

I just watched the full playthrough on youtube. I'm glad I did it that way. While it has an intriguing dark/ominous atmosphere going on, the gameplay is pretty much the same this-level-is-on-rails stuff from the regular campaign with some bonus gimmicks from recent multiplayer expansions. The plot is also questionable.

I would definitely not say that it's the best Mass Effect DLC. I have little interest in downloading this one. Just about every major ME2 DLC trumps it by a long shot.

Spoiler

"Leviathan" was good for building up some suspense about what Shepard might find at the end of his/her hunt -- the sense that you probably shouldn't be messing with this thing. Still nothing quite like the ominous dread of the derelict Reaper mission in ME2, though.

Well, yes, the whole thing is better than the Prothean DLC. It's an actual mission with travel, discussions, and multiple areas of combat. So that's good. I don't think it's anywhere near the quality of the ME2 DLCs, though. Even "Bring Down the Sky" arguably had better pacing.

Most of the "detective work" scenes just have Shepard walking around a lab, clicking on highlighted objects, and listening to quick autodialogue from EDI about what they are. Fairly dull exposition dumps with minimal interaction. Once a location is acquired, Shepard ships out and scans a planet or two until we find our next level.

The combat is just like any other mission. No twists, no surprise, no new enemies. You get to escort drones on certain levels, which might feel new to single-player people, but is now old news for anyone who has done multiplayer recently. There still no real exploration on combat levels. Just "run down the only path and shoot things" or "stay here until you survive this wave of enemies" stuff. They look pretty enough, but the pretty is offset by the fact that you can't really do much while you're there. The Leviathan ocean level has a nice atmosphere to it -- this ship bobbing in an angry ocean that reminds me of being out on a fishing boat -- but that's all.

And then, once you actually find the Leviathan, everything stops. You're taken out of the action because the last encounter is just a huge info-dump. There's no climax, really. It just sort of builds, then... stops. Which is really rather frustrating. And it doesn't really impact the rest of the game. Just adds war assets. Your support characters saying "this changes everything" at the end of the mission feels pretty forced, because anyone that's already beaten the game is aware that it alters nothing at all.

As for the Leviathan's true nature... eh. I would have rather they left the origins of the Reapers alone, or at least didn't involve them quite that much. You get the sense that the Leviathan race is somehow worse than the Reapers. Because they're effectively what we thought the Reapers were going to be until the "synthetics created to protect organics from synthetics" theme got involved -- they're a big race of super-powerful overlords who see all other species as their servants. They have powerful mind-control abilities, are full of themselves, had the galaxy enslaved during their time, and consider themselves to be the apex species.

Take away the Reapers, and you're stuck with these guys coming back in full force after a few centuries. And they don't have some broken-but-predictable AI telling them what to do. They're nightmarish overlords because they want to be.

- No new enemies
- No real new challenges
- No genuine exploration
- Combat levels still on rails
- Dialogue options still pretty limited
- Awkward pacing
- Dry info-dumping rather than learning as you go

Would not bang.

[SteveT]

Normally, I'd be all over this, but I have trouble getting excited about Mass Effect again. I'm still mad at Bioware.

Maybe when it's on sale.

[Nevermind]

I just watched the full playthrough on youtube. I'm glad I did it that way. While it has an intriguing dark/ominous atmosphere going on, the gameplay is pretty much the same this-level-is-on-rails stuff from the regular campaign with some bonus gimmicks from recent multiplayer expansions. The plot is also questionable.

I would definitely not say that it's the best Mass Effect DLC. I have little interest in downloading this one. Just about every major ME2 DLC trumps it by a long shot.

Spoiler

"Leviathan" was good for building up some suspense about what Shepard might find at the end of his/her hunt -- the sense that you probably shouldn't be messing with this thing. Still nothing quite like the ominous dread of the derelict Reaper mission in ME2, though.

Well, yes, the whole thing is better than the Prothean DLC. It's an actual mission with travel, discussions, and multiple areas of combat. So that's good. I don't think it's anywhere near the quality of the ME2 DLCs, though. Even "Bring Down the Sky" arguably had better pacing.

Most of the "detective work" scenes just have Shepard walking around a lab, clicking on highlighted objects, and listening to quick autodialogue from EDI about what they are. Fairly dull exposition dumps with minimal interaction. Once a location is acquired, Shepard ships out and scans a planet or two until we find our next level.

The combat is just like any other mission. No twists, no surprise, no new enemies. You get to escort drones on certain levels, which might feel new to single-player people, but is now old news for anyone who has done multiplayer recently. There still no real exploration on combat levels. Just "run down the only path and shoot things" or "stay here until you survive this wave of enemies" stuff. They look pretty enough, but the pretty is offset by the fact that you can't really do much while you're there. The Leviathan ocean level has a nice atmosphere to it -- this ship bobbing in an angry ocean that reminds me of being out on a fishing boat -- but that's all.

And then, once you actually find the Leviathan, everything stops. You're taken out of the action because the last encounter is just a huge info-dump. There's no climax, really. It just sort of builds, then... stops. Which is really rather frustrating. And it doesn't really impact the rest of the game. Just adds war assets. Your support characters saying "this changes everything" at the end of the mission feels pretty forced, because anyone that's already beaten the game is aware that it alters nothing at all.

As for the Leviathan's true nature... eh. I would have rather they left the origins of the Reapers alone, or at least didn't involve them quite that much. You get the sense that the Leviathan race is somehow worse than the Reapers. Because they're effectively what we thought the Reapers were going to be until the "synthetics created to protect organics from synthetics" theme got involved -- they're a big race of super-powerful overlords who see all other species as their servants. They have powerful mind-control abilities, are full of themselves, had the galaxy enslaved during their time, and consider themselves to be the apex species.

Take away the Reapers, and you're stuck with these guys coming back in full force after a few centuries. And they don't have some broken-but-predictable AI telling them what to do. They're nightmarish overlords because they want to be.

- No new enemies
- No real new challenges
- No genuine exploration
- Combat levels still on rails
- Dialogue options still pretty limited
- Awkward pacing
- Dry info-dumping rather than learning as you go

Would not bang.

Sorry, I meant best ME3 DLC. So....better than From Ashes. Shadowbroker was by far the best of the lot, followed by Kasumi's secret agent DLC. At least for me.

[Tom_TomVll]

I wish the Indoctrination Theory was cannon to ME3's story ._.

I've seen the new endings and they are great and all but still it would of been interesting an maybe it would of made a nice set up to a hypothetical ME4

Video just in case anyone hasn't heard of it but I'm sure 90% of you already have.

[Nevermind]

There is a whole lot of discussion about it on the BSN. It generally stays within those few threads though, since pretty much everyone else hates it. I'm more a fan of the "Does this prove IT?" pseudo-meme they've got going on over there.

[Tom_TomVll]

I just think its an interesting concept because it would make sense for reapers to try and model. the new human reaper after Shepard. Still I do like the new expanded endings including the "fuck you star child" ending so I guess it all works out lol

[Selena]

I was a fan of IT when it first came out, since there was a glimmer of hope that Bioware was going to release a "real" ending after the game had been released in all regions for a while in order to prevent early ending leaks, but... yeah. I think the developers considered indoctrination for a time, and there are little clues scattered here and there, but the idea was ultimately scrapped. Just like dark energy/the Illusive Man boss fight they decided against/etc.

At the end of the day, the indoctrination theory isn't real.

Was always fun to read, though.

[Nevermind]

I‘m glad they scrapped it. “In the end it was all a dream“? Yeah, no thanks.

[Selena]

If they were to do it proper, I doubt they would have ended it on that note. A behind-the-scenes thing that came out not long after the game was released said they were going to have indoctrination featured in the finale before the big Illusive Man smackdown that never happened.

Though, hey, a deus ex machina is no less cliche than "it was all a dream!"

[Nevermind]

It is a touch less cliche and a sight more philosophical. If it was done properly it might be alright but if hallucinations are so much like the real thing then they‘d certainly have to impliment a mechanic to discern reality and indoctrination or specifically state what is real and what is not.

[Selena]

Oh, come on, you tend to like surreal not-quite-sure-if-reality-or-trippin-balls endings in other works. It's heavy on symbolism, causes you to question your actions and convictions, all sorts of things.

Yes, in the notes, Shepard was going to break indoctrination and carry on. It wasn't going to be "it was all a dream the end!"

There were multiple variants of the IT back when I was lurking the Bioware forums, some way more plausible than others, and some incredibly well thought out. Not all of them took the "it was a dream" approach. A lot of them went along the Fight Club route, where you're always in reality, just not necessarily aware of your own failing mental health. And you genuinely make a choice at the end, not just wake up. Something of a test, given how much you've learned in previous games about all of the villains, their misguided goals, and the Reapers.

But, of course, IT isn't true no matter what. But would definitely argue against a deus ex machina being less cliche / more philosophical.

[Tom_TomVll]

A Boss fight with the Illusive Man would of been so cool, when I first played Mass Effect 2 I was just waiting for it to happen.