77 replies to this topic

[SteveT]

I just added "The End" to the first draft of my second novel, and it's not even past my bed time. So that's pretty cool

[SteveT]

This is a fun little thing:

http://iwl.me/

Dumpe some of your writing in there. The more, the better. It takes it and analyzes your style to compare it to some known author.

In my case, my natural style is like Harry Harrison. I'd never heard of him, and assuming that this whole thing was a snake-oil novelty, I downloaded one of Harrison's books...and holy crap, it was accurate.

[Selena]

Huh!


Depending on what I put in, I got:


Mario Puzo (on short story)
....James Joyce. XD (another short story)
Arthur C. Clark (lengthy novel excerpt)

[Chikara Nadir]

Okay, so this amuses me. If I put my posts in the Chronicles into the thing separately, most of them say I'm Lovecraft. But if I put them all in together, I get Dan Brown.

[JRPomazon]

My poetry is James Joyce, my prose is Lovecraft. However, certain fragments are more like other authors.

[Egann]

Apparently that last post of mine in Wall of the Gods was written like Douglas Adams.


Huh? I don't get how that works, but I'll take it.


I also get David Foster Wallace, Harry Harrison, and J.K. Rowling on other stuff I've done. That's...an awkward combination, really....

Interesting, fun, but I can't say I can see this as particularly meaningful without seeing the program's logic.

[SteveT]

If it was me, I would start with average and mean deviation on word length, sentence length, and page length.

Then I'd take probabilities on punctuation marks and grammar quirks (such as starting a sentence with a conjunction, split infinitives, etc).

After that, check for key words that will indicate subject matter.

Apply similar algorithms to various authors, and take the best fit for the sample.

[Egann]

See, if I were designing it, I'd start with sentence complexity and syntax, then diction, then look for rhetorical use. I doubt that computers will be good at detecting rhetorical devices, however, any time in the near future.


Interesting discussion starter: What do you think are the defining forces of prose style and what do look for when appraising prose, especially your own? What about poetry?

[SteveT]

Well, I already gave my answer: idiosyncracies in syntax. Diction is also a factor.

If the algorithm was smart enough to classify words as noun, verb, etc, that's another data point. Then you can consider general sentence structure trends and relative probabilities of each kind of word.

e.g. Does the author have a tendency to use short verbs next to adverbs, or long verbs and few adverbs?

Edited by SteveT, 04 January 2011 - 08:25 PM.

[Selena]

Since my problem is openings, I thought I'd try pitching the first two pages of a manuscript here to see if it manages to hook interest. Rough draft, no editing, just writer vomit at this stage.

Spoiler

Kalisha was going to kill her best friend. It would have been an idle threat on any other occasion, but the stars had aligned to ensure that her desire for murder corresponded with the day she had received a set of personalized weaponry. Patience was the key. It would be a simple thing to do, but she would have to wait until the end of graduation day. When all of the other young people went off to have their drunken celebrations, Kalisha could slip away and use a coilgun to put a metal slug through Nanshe's forehead.

“I don't see why you don't believe me. I'm not – no, I'm not! I won't be stuck here like everyone else when there are better things to see. Who wants to stay on Izina when a planet like Taskarin is out there? You just watch. I'm going to be transferred there, and I'll become queen of the social nightlife! I'll have the best clothes and have the strongest drinks and be chased after by herds of gorgeous men and then I'll invade a planet. A whole system!”

Ah, drunken rambling. It was a vital component of any genuine celebration. The latest session was being brought to the public by a curvaceous blonde woman standing on top of a stone bench in the middle of town. Raia had always been the alpha female in their academic cohort. People were disarmed by her looks, as she had been blessed with good genes from both sides of her family, but beneath the surface lurked a venomous streak that kept people in check if they dared to step beyond her established boundaries. That combination of wit and beauty had given Raia a large entourage and an even larger group of distant admirers, all of whom acted as her eyes and ears throughout the city. Better still, she was the cousin of Kalisha's intended victim. Why waste time hunting when someone could point you in the right direction?

“Raia,” Kalisha called, “can I talk to you?”

Raia had opened her mouth to entertain her thirty-some followers with another impressive monologue, but she stopped short when her gray eyes fell upon the new arrival. Her face lit up and she scrambled off the stone bench with all the grace of a one-legged dancer in order to race over and give Kalisha a hug. She smelled of sweet perfume and wine, but it was difficult to tell which scent was stronger.

“Kali! Happy graduation! How has your night been?”

“Not quite as entertaining as yours, I suspect.”

"The night's not over yet," Raia laughed. "You want something to drink?"

“I'm fine, but thank you,” said Kalisha. “I'm looking for Nanshe. Have you seen her?”

“You're asking me? You're the one that's with her all the time. Did you lose her? No, wait, nobody ever loses Nanshe.” Raia began to lean against Kalisha's shoulder as the conversation progressed, but she didn't seem to be aware that she was doing it. “Nanshe only disappears when she doesn't want to be found. Why would she hide from you? You're the trusty sidekick.”

Kalisha balled her right hand into a white-knuckle fist but spoke in monotone. “She thinks I'm angry.”

Raia waved a hand in dismissal. “Well, that's silly! I've never seen you upset. There's been a ton of people asking about her, though. It's a just shock. Why would someone with her service and academic record refuse to enlist? It's not like there's any opportunity as a civilian here.”

Time to redirect the drunk back to the original topic. “Do you know where she is?”

“She came by not long ago to congratulate me on being the top student." A smug grin worked its way onto Raia's face. “She and the rest of the hunters were going to the eastern outskirts of town to have their own party. She invited me, but we both knew I'd never go. You people get your kicks jumping into rivers and rolling around in the dirt. I'm classier than that.”

Kalisha began to walk away. “Thanks, Rai.”

With the sudden absence of support, Raia fell forward onto the street. She didn't seem too bothered. Even while lying prone, Raia waved one hand and said, “No problem!”

My opinion/worries on the matter:

Spoiler

- Publishers (not so much other authors) want a definite hook in the first page, if not the first few sentences. Most editors looking at manuscripts will put them down if they don't hook in the first couple paragraphs due to the volume of submissions they get. They want tension from the very start, even if nothing is necessarily happening. Just a feeling of uneasiness or entertainment that keeps you reading.

- As such, I've pushed some things back to pages 3 and 4 - internal monologue, physical description of the main character, and details on the immediate setting. Wondering if that's a good idea.

- Tried to get out the broadest surface-personalities of the mentioned characters from the get-go. Kalisha speaks in monotone but is very angry beneath the surface - thus someone who is very good at hiding her emotions. She and Raia are also at least somewhat friendly because they use shortened names with each other.

Nanshe is described as being high achieving (mentions of her academic record) but a potential delinquent (she's neglected to do something important and nobody can find her unless she's made it so they can).

Raia is popular, but there is mention of her having an inner cruelty. Wondering if it's better to hold off on mentioning Raia's cruel side until it actually manifests itself when she gets pissed off later on. Better to be shocked by that, or does it make her more intimidating knowing from the start that she has the immediate potential to snap at any time? The main character, at least, is very well aware of it by this stage in her life.

- Anything that's just.... weird? Would you keep reading?

[SteveT]

For some reason, something isn't clicking for me. One suggestion is to add some narration around the whole thing and really try to capture Kalisha's malice. For someone plotting a murder, she feels a little detached.

- Publishers (not so much other authors) want a definite hook in the first page, if not the first few sentences. Most editors looking at manuscripts will put them down if they don't hook in the first couple paragraphs due to the volume of submissions they get. They want tension from the very start, even if nothing is necessarily happening. Just a feeling of uneasiness or entertainment that keeps you reading.

Well, when you start with the opening sentence you did, a hook isn't the problem.

- As such, I've pushed some things back to pages 3 and 4 - internal monologue, physical description of the main character, and details on the immediate setting. Wondering if that's a good idea.

It's a little too plot focused now, in my opinion. I think inner monologue would be advantageous, and maybe a quick summary of the setting. You can go into more detail later. Physical description of the main character can wait.

- Tried to get out the broadest surface-personalities of the mentioned characters from the get-go. Kalisha speaks in monotone but is very angry beneath the surface - thus someone who is very good at hiding her emotions. She and Raia are also at least somewhat friendly because they use shortened names with each other. Nanshe is described as being high achieving (mentions of her academic record) but a potential delinquent (she's neglected to do something important and nobody can find her unless she's made it so they can).

The problem is, you show hints of anger, but not enough. What POV are you using for this? If it's 3rd limited focused on Kalisha, you can do more to show her inner rage along with her attempts to suppress it. There are hints, but I don't think it's quite coming through. Raia seems kind of flat at this level of detail. Can't comment on Nanshe, since she's only alluded to.

Raia is popular, but there is mention of her having an inner cruelty. Wondering if it's better to hold off on mentioning Raia's cruel side until it actually manifests itself when she gets pissed off later on. Better to be shocked by that, or does it make her more intimidating knowing from the start that she has the immediate potential to snap at any time? The main character, at least, is very well aware of it by this stage in her life.

I think the cruel side can wait, but I think you need to establish her red herring personality here.

- Anything that's just.... weird?

Nothing I haven't already mentioned.

Would you keep reading?

I would keep reading at least until I figured out who Nanshe is and why she needs to die.

One idea is to go more through Kalina's thought process regarding stalking Nanshe, slipping between graduation parties (I assume) until she bumps into Raia, and questioning her. A few paragraphs of narration toward the beginning would go a long way.

Edited by SteveT, 06 January 2011 - 09:51 PM.

[Egann]

Unlike Steve...it DID click with me, and for all the wrong reasons. Compare:

Kalisha was going to kill her best friend. It would have been an idle threat on any other occasion, but the stars had aligned to ensure that her desire for murder corresponded with the day she had received a set of personalized weaponry.

The thousand injuries of Fortunato I had borne as best I could; but when he ventured upon insult, I vowed revenge.

From the second sentence, this excerpt reminded me of The Cask of Amontillado. It's strength to pull me along came because I was AWARE of a borrowed strength. Yes, I found myself wanting to read more, but not out of a desire to enjoy it for what it stands for on it's own, but how much it falls in Poe's shadow. And after the party with booze and the protagonist seeming to be a social outsider -shades, both of the Amontillado being the spirits and Montresor looking enviously on Fortunato being a Mason- I can't say that you really did a lot in this excerpt to douse that first appraisal.

It's good that your hook is so similar; if you AREN'T trying to rip Poe (and us) off, then this is because it's a formula you know works. It just isn't quite working here.


Starting up IS hard, but it's not complicated once you understand what's involved. It has two aspects; 1) establishing an emotional connection between reader and character and 2) raising implicit questions to drive the reader further along. The beginning thrives on the question, even if the story never answers it. Think again of the Poe line. What question IMMEDIATELY comes to your mind when reading it? What injuries of Fortunato, be sure, but most importantly, What insult has driven Montresor to this end? We never find out, but it compells the reader to continue.

What do we get here? Do we see Kalisha's motivation in sufficient clarity to even ask a question about it? No. And then there's personalized weaponry and slugs in the head. Answers instead of questions, answers which come off as exposition slowing things down, rather than questions speeding things up.

[Selena]

Thank you, Steve. Adding more narration was something I figured on as well.


Egann, your advice.... is somewhat contradictory and I'm not really sure what to do with it. I haven't read to work you're referring to, but you mention that you never receive an answer to the questions that the vague opening line poses. I don't see how my two opening lines are any more/less vague than the one you quoted, and I also don't give any answers at this stage, so in either case the reader just has the question.

And yes, I fully understand what's involved with starting a story. But just because you understand what's involved does not make it any less complicated. The opening of a story is, by nature, one of the most complicated parts of the entire manuscript no matter how good you are. And if you don't get it perfect, you get rejected almost immediately.

I also can't apologize for not being Poe.





I have an alternate way to start it off. Might write that out just to see the difference.

[SteveT]

What length manuscript are we talking about, incidentally?

I have similar problems with beginnings. The modern reader demands that they are enraptured before they even get to the first word, it seems. It's obnoxious, and gives the writer no freedom in the beginning of anything.

[Selena]

This will be a novel length manuscript. Currently very unfinished. This is just the first (semi-sarcastic) question that leads to more questions that leads to more questions.

[Egann]

Questions? What mean you by questions?


In any case, what I meant was that you provide answers for questions before the reader has even had time to think them; in this case how the murder will happen is answered before the audience has even been given a sentence which would trigger wondering why there will be a murder in the first place. Even if the "answers" I refer to are red herrings, at this stage in the game it doesn't come across that way.

I have never had a hard time starting up a story because I was worried about quality of the start. I have ALWAYS had problems because I'm staring at a blank piece of paper. The start comes in a content vacuum, so the "next logical piece" doesn't exist yet. Usually, I just write a start, then after I've finished draft one I come back and reconsider the beginning, so that when I'm writing the true intro or redrafting the old beginning, it is NOT being written in a context vacuum, but is "what is the previous logical piece." What's the point in worrying about perfection if I'm going to redraft this, anyways?


In any case, I'll go ahead and post my manuscript's start.

Spoiler

"Leyn's having a good time hanging out with the merchant's daughter," Miran pointed out. "Why don't you try joining them?"

Kira replied with a glare and went back to staring at them. "Leyn probably thinks those green eyes of hers are pretty. He sure looks at them a lot." She dropped her head. "I wish I had green eyes. Not a muddy brownish green like hers; green like young leaves. How long 'till Ender gets back?"

"He didn't say. Anxious to keep moving or something?"

"Yeah. Something like that."

Miran smiled. "You want Leyn away from her, don't you?" She nodded towards the merchant's daughter. "Come here." Miran wrapped her arms around Kira in a tight hug. "I've been through these things before, too. Don't worry about it."

"Thanks, Miran." Kira snuggled into her chest, then looked Miran in the eyes. Miran's eyes widened in shock. "What is it?"

"I..uh...nothing." Miran stammered. She took Kira's hand with a smile. "Come with me. Just for a moment." There was something wrong with the smile. It didn't feel like it had been a smile at all. Around the corner of a rabbit trail, Miran thrust Kira face-down against a tree stump.

Kira felt the cold of Miran's sword touch the back of her neck. "Wha-?! Miran?" She looked back at Miran's face. Hate, fear, and affectionate reluctance were all written in the grit of her teeth.

"Hold still."

"Whatever did I do wrong?!"




Three weeks earlier....

Thoughts:

Spoiler

Flash-forwards are really really rare, but I'm particularly happy (although not dead-set) on the structure it got going on here. I get to cut directly to a cliff-hanger just after parallel plot threads start to emerge AND it gives a subtle hint for what Miran saw that re-readers might pick up on. FYI: It takes several chapters for the plot to catch up with the flash-forward, and when they reintegrate, the scene is reiterated from Miran's POV.

That said, there are a few problems. I'm REALLY unhappy with the prose-smithing here. It just feels dead and/ or predictable. Hopefully the redrafting after full first draft will take care of that. BUT a more troublesome complication is that it is simultaneously too short and too long. Too short because it feels set in a vacuum, too long because it takes about 100 words to actually start and I don't see how I could change that in any redraft. It might not be structurally possible.

EDIT: Oh, Lena, I thought I should stick an idea in your craw; a private manuscript/ draft discussion sub-forum that only logged in members can see. Generalized beyond just writing, of course. We don't exactly have a lot of activity on showcase, but perhaps a private forum would open up a creative beta-reviewer side of the members? I don't know. Just thought I'd float the idea past you.

Edited by Egann, 07 January 2011 - 01:03 PM.

[SteveT]

I don't see a problem with starting the story at a point in the future, then going back to show how you got there. Authors do it all the time.

My main complaint about yours is that it's more dialog-heavy than I would prefer. More narration would help.

And I may as well join the party. This is the prologue of my current WIP. It assumes some knowledge of the previous book, but not a whole lot.

The sun was bright, and I had a headache, so I put a cloud in the sky. It was a simple thing, really. I still don’t know why I never thought to do it before. The Elves had figured it out, of course, but the thought that humans could do it, too….well, no one had even considered it. But a thought, a gesture…that was all it took to bring me an hour of comfort. Effortless. Obvious.

Magical.

Still, and I didn’t pay any attention to this at the time, right after I did it, I felt something inside me wither. There’s no way to describe it, except that I felt ever so slightly weaker, and maybe even older. Perhaps not older, but less young, if that you can understand.

So I told everyone what I had done, and soon we were as powerful as the Elves. Perhaps moreso, since we had learned to live our lives without it. We weren’t dependent on magic. We weren’t creatures of magic. We just…used magic as we would any other tool. It was as much a part of us as a
hammer, except that we always had it nearby.

The Elves tried to warn us, but of course we didn’t listen. They said that it was shortening our lives, that our women would all die in childbirth, which was of course absurd. Death. Humans didn’t die. The Elves were projecting their own fears onto us.

Apparently not. My daughter, who had grown up with the knowledge of magic, used it for everything. If she wanted to climb a tree, one sprouted up from the ground, and she was hanging on its branches. When she fell out of the tree, the air thickened to slow her decent. When she was hungry, berries appeared in her hand. She used more magic than the rest of us combined, and her talent was remarkable.

She used up the last of it when she was eight years old. She died that night.

I mourned for weeks. How could one of us die? What had we done to deserve it? What was the point of a huge, magnificent world full of life and magic if my daughter only had eight years to experience it? It wasn’t fair. It wasn’t right. It wasn’t fair.

I gathered what was left of her and carried her to the mountains where the gods dwelled. I lifted her bones up to them, and demanded their attention. I pleaded and argued and cursed them for hours.

Finally, they agreed. It wasn’t fair. They were impressed not by my devotion to my daughter, but my curiosity about their world, and they proposed a compromise. They would never grant humans true immortality, but they would create a place for our spirits to rest. I would never see my daughter again and they would take away our ability to perform unaided magic, but they would create the Underworld. They would install me, me who was so curious, as the king of the Underworld, where I would listen to and catalog the tales of the dead.

I accepted their proposal.

There was a bright light in the sky. I remember it vividly. A luminous, orange-red shockwave spread across the heavens, spiraled and descended in a thick cloud. I breathed it in. I had no choice.

When it was over, I felt different. I couldn’t quite tell at the time, but I know now that whatever it was that allowed me to command magic had been compressed and reappropriated as a copy of myself, a copy that would be sent away to the Underworld upon my death, where I would reign forever. Then I coughed out the orange smoke and the gods faded away. I slowly sank into the earth, but my daughter’s bones remained on the altar. I sank deeper and deeper until I fell into a cavern where the orange smoke still hung in the air. I sank into the Underworld. It was empty for years.

What I learned later was that not all humans breathed in the orange smoke. Some of them instinctively used their magic to shield themselves from it. They remained as they were – full of magic, devoid of souls. None of them ever came to my kingdom. I have only heard the tales of these special people who were between Elf and human. They were called sorcerers, and if the stories are any indication, they should have never survived.

[Egann]

Ooh. I like. It catches my attention from the start and challenges my preconceived notions for fantasy worlds. It's unique and that uniqueness -along with carefully seeded exposition- leads me to have questions. That, and the narration flows naturally. You make it tempting and easy to keep going, so that qualifies as a good beginning for me. But there are a few problems. Well, not so much a few as one which caught my eye in a big way.

Let me put this up front; I am not good at monologues like this. I naturally lean away from monologues and towards dialogue or action. Why? Monologues are either quite slow or entirely static (as this one is). There is little to no action, so the monologue has to have enough content and personality of its own that this is not a problem.

You definitely have the content. In fact, depending on the other 49,500 words + of your manuscript, you may be able to get away with even less. The problem I notice is that the narrator doesn't have any personality. He seems human, don't get me wrong, but human like something happens to his daughter and he feels bad is almost like human like you eat too much and get sick. It's a reflexive humanity. When I ask myself "what makes this character unique" I come to a blank answer. I can say a few rather important things that have happened to him, even if only in the broadest strokes, but he has no emotional "face" so to speak.

That's a problem because monologues hinge upon both the content and the personality of the narrator to color that content. Content alone is sufficient for your purposes, but it's a waste when you're using as intimate a point of view as first person, which draws it's strength from being ABLE to color content in ways other POV's can't.

[SteveT]

While I see what you're saying, and this probably makes me a bad writer, people's stupid emotions bore me, and would bore me to write about. Besides, this is an ancient character describing things that happened to him millenia ago. I'm not entirely certain how he could be anything other than emotionally detached. I wonder if pointing that out somehow would help, maybe a tinge of guilt because he no longer gets worked up about it.

He's meant to have a somewhat dry personality. He's essentially a historian god, the ultimate librarian.

Anyway, this is the only section of the book with a first person POV. I like my prologues to be stylistically different from the rest of the book, for good or ill. I switch back to a standard 3rd person limited for all remaining content.


Thanks for the comments. I'll take it under consideration.

[JRPomazon]

Here is a question for you all, what can I do to prepare myself for an extensive writing assignment? I have an independent study this semester for my minor in writing and I have to write a lengthy story, 70+ pages. Now, I know that is a small number compared to most books but it will be the longest thing I have ever written. What can I do to prepare myself to write something decent with that kind of length?

[Egann]

@ SteveT:

*shrug* It's my personal opinion that if emotion is done and it's boring, it's because it hasn't been done well. To each, his own, though. Your explanation of the narrator character DOES explain the apparent lack of personality.


@ JRP:

You know, I've written a couple of fanfics that went into the 100 page range. Sad that to date the longest thing I've written was a fanfiction almost five years ago, really, so once you finish this...I'll be asking you questions.


Pre-writing:

In general, the longer a work of fiction the more important pre-writing is, not because pre-writing is somehow less vital to short fiction so much as you can fit all the notes for a short work of fiction in your head comfortably. Not so for longer works.

Research: read up on the material known about your universe. If it's set in a fantasy world, grab a few books on swordsmanship and medieval social structure. If it's set in the mountains, grab a book on mountaineering. Like Lena said on page one, the tendency is to dump this material (and it is hard to hold back, I admit) but NOTHING ruins the suspension of disbelief quite like an author proving he doesn't know jack about what he's writing by saying something stupid when the reader knows better.

ALSO research what other people have written that is similar to your own. You don't need to be exhaustive in either your search for the nitty-gritty or the fiction, but it's good to be aware of the details, to know what other authors have done and -perhaps most importantly- to know how successfully the other authors did those other things.

You may want to take notes and outline, you may not. I tend to use a big folder of unorganized scrap paper with thousands of scribbles all over the place.


Actually writing:

Bear in mind that this isn't a short story; quality is still important, but you don't need to polish EVERYTHING with the same sort of vigor you had to with short stories. The beginning, end, and key scenes in the middle still need to be polished, though. You have time and space, so don't try to get ahead of yourself. If you get to a spot where you know what you want to happen but not how to say it "just right" DON'T let that interfere with the flow. Just spit out an awkward line or two, highlight it for future editing, and move along.

[Selena]

Here is a question for you all, what can I do to prepare myself for an extensive writing assignment? I have an independent study this semester for my minor in writing and I have to write a lengthy story, 70+ pages. Now, I know that is a small number compared to most books but it will be the longest thing I have ever written. What can I do to prepare myself to write something decent with that kind of length?

First: Don't stress. You're a very good writer, so I feel safe in saying (from my own brief experience in a writing course) that you'll do better than at least 80% of your peers even if you just slap together all your Chronicles posts and just hand that it. You'll do fine on a lengthy original piece.

Normally, you'd start off with an idea and just write it out.

In your case, you know your target length - 70 pages, which I suspect is double spaced due to standard formatting practices. This gives you a window in which to put a story. That's about 30 pages in a 'real' book, depending on the publisher, so it'd be about two or three chapters worth of writing. Another comparison would be the length of a (standalone) TV show episode. Keeping this length in mind will keep you from undershooting or overshooting your goal.


So....

- Remember your word count/page count goal.

- Brainstorm the main 'idea' of the story. It's going to be longer than most simple musings found in short stories, but not long enough to be a novel. Think the TV episode plot range.

- Describe and flesh out your character(s). You can do this one ahead of the 'idea' if it's more of a character-based thing, or at the same time. How they act on the surface, and how it compares to how they really feel inside, plus any mental quirks that might rule their actions against their will. Or maybe they're someone who's just blunt and wears their heart on their sleeve - some people legitimately aren't complicated. But that can be less interesting to read about.

- I do a general outline of what I want to happen - this helps with pacing. Don't get too detailed on the outline, however, or you'll get bogged down a bit when you actually go write it out.

- I don't set out to do 'drafts.' I do a single draft and tinker with it. Unless it looks like it needs a major facelift, at which point I do a rewrite. But for some people, it's much easier to just vomit up their idea in a rough draft, then rewrite it in a final draft. Whichever style suits you.

- Write. If you get distracted, unplug your modem. I have a problem with ADD if I write on the computer, because I'm always tempted to surf the net. You might even try writing on a notebook if it makes it easier. I get hand cramps, though.







....Any ideas on what you might do?

[SteveT]

My process is a lot like Selena's.

I would also add that you have to remember that this is a long-term project, not something you can bang out overnight. Try to write ever day. My rule is: any I open the file of a draft, I have to add something to it before I leave that window. I also like to carry a notebook around with me at all times. Unlike Egann, I don't do a whole lot of pre-planning. I'll have a general idea of where I want the story to go, but I only create detailed plans a few chapters ahead of time. Sometimes the story doesn't go exactly where I expect it, and I'd rather adapt to where the story wants to go than force it in a predefined direction.

@ SteveT:

*shrug* It's my personal opinion that if emotion is done and it's boring, it's because it hasn't been done well. To each, his own, though. Your explanation of the narrator character DOES explain the apparent lack of personality.

Emotions pretty much always bore me. Filthy humans and your mind-altering hormone secretions!

Edited by SteveT, 16 January 2011 - 12:00 AM.

[Egann]

Just one thing I want to mention before we get off the multiple/ single draft thing.

Redrafting more than doubles the amount of time needed to write. Triples, really, when you include sitting and letting the ideas congeal. That said, it gives you the opportunity to directly handle the narration, presentation, and even organization AFTER the thinking has already been done. That means that, while writing on superficial level is easier and faster with just a single draft, all your higher level writing techniques, like using a mix of direct and indirect narration to simulate tachypsychia or presenting the material in a non-chronological order to simulate a mental disease, is either a result of pure genius or several true redrafts. (I bet some of you didn't even know either of those WERE possible.) The idea of the story is finished, so all the writer's attention can go to presentation and organization.

So is redrafting always a good idea? NO. Most writers most of the time don't go around wondering about how to emulate tachypsychia with their narration, and most readers aren't reading critically enough to appreciate the effect, either. But it does make the result a work of beauty if the author is willing to put forward the time. For most short fiction, it's unnecessary. For most long fiction, it's impossibly impractical. In either case, good pre-writing can emulate a first draft, even if only partially, and it's the ONLY practical way to go for long fiction. In the end, it's all up to the writer's discretion for how much time to dedicate to what part of creation.

[SteveT]

I'm not entirely sure that you and I think of drafts the same way. If you're suggesting without extensive prewriting, the first draft is just word vomit with no merit, that's simply not what I was suggesting. You should know what you write before you write it, and aim to have a solid first draft. I just don't think you need to do every single bit of research and planning up front. To use the tachypsychia example, there's nothing wrong with writing the ten chapters before any character experiences it before you research tachypsychia to make sure you get the technique right. I know that I, personally, need to get started to stay motivated. That said, I write fantasy. If I were writing a mystery novel or a political thriller or somesuch, things might be different.

[Selena]

There's no "correct" way to write, and no one should be conditioned to adopt a technique that doesn't personally suit them, regardless of what's considered "normal" by the majority of writers. Some people consider writing tricks as they write, and then incorporate them as needed. Others don't even think about things such as (in)direct narration or free indirect speech or anything else you'd know by name from an English class. They just write what they feel, and it works. Some people are artistically minded like that, and they don't have to prepare beforehand. Most of the "masters" of literature never took a proper creative writing course in their lives - they just practiced and, from having read extensively, they knew how things were supposed to flow and what they could play with.

And that's not even getting into how you might use different methods of creation from story to story. I extensively prewrite some things to the point where 50% of my world-building notes will never be used, and with other things I don't prewrite at all.

There's no "ONLY practical way" to anything in an artistic field.

Some people enjoy extensive prewriting - even to the point where they like world-building more than the actual writing. Others cannot stand prewriting at all and spill out whatever's in their imagination, letting their creativity take them where it may. Neither method guarantees success or failure. It depends on how the brain of the author works.

With either approach, the author usually has at least a vague idea of what they'd like to have happen before they pick up the pen/push the keys, and that's often enough to just go and write.

[SteveT]

I extensively prewrite some things to the point where 50% of my world-building notes will never be used, and with other things I don't prewrite at all.

.
That's what Appendices are for! Or in the case of David Eddings, The Rivan Codex.

And while I'm here, read it, suckers

Edited by SteveT, 17 January 2011 - 09:59 PM.

[SOAP]

What do you write? Novels, fanfics, RPs, vidjamagame scripts?
Novels, though I've never completed one. I procrastonate too much... Hey, I have a Bachelors in Game Art to finish, I have an excuse!

What genre do you prefer? Sci-fi, fantasy, horror?
Scifi, especially alternate history or epic fantasies.

What are some of your favorite stories?
The Red Mars Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson, Sun of Suns by Karl Schroeder, Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card, His Dark Materials by Phillip Pullman, City of Ember by Jean DuPrua, and the Keys to the Kingdom by Garth Nix. A Song of Ice and Fire by Goerge RR Martin and the Wheel of Time by James Oliver Rigney Jr. have peaked my interest over the years but I keep forgetting to buy those books. I also need to actually read some of the Disc World books instead of just watching the movies,

Any writing pet peeves? What type of stuff annoys you when you're reading?
Writer on board. I had this problem with His Dark Materials in either the second or third book. I can't remember which one but at one point the whole Anti-Cristianity thing got a little too obvious and I felt like the author was forcing his own bias opinions against religion down my throat. And I'm an staunch atheist. It got really bad when the witches started referencing real world witch hunts which A)In most cases the accused weren't even witches to begin with and B.)Had nothing to do with their world where witches are oddly enough left completely alone by a world dominated by Christians. The hell!

Also, anything SteveT mentioned. I especially hate card-carrying villians. Unless it's a comedy or supposed to be ironic or something. I don't really don't mind plunky farm boys though. I guess that's because I play too much Zelda over the years that I've grown accustom to it.

Speaking of SteveT, I really need to buy his book. Next paycheck HONEST.

And what do you prefer instead?
Books that challenge conventional thought, including my own. I don't want to read a book I already know I agree with. If a book written by a Christian actually makes me question my atheist stance, then that's a really good writer.

Also, a novel for gay people that's actually good that doesn't come across an amatuerish slash fic. If someone knows of one I'm all for it!

Tips and tricks of the trade?
Since I've never actually finished anything just take everything I do and do the opposite of that. LOL

Edited by SOAP, 31 January 2011 - 06:55 AM.

[Egann]

I've been thinking through this for a while, and since this thread's been kind of dull lately, I thought I would go ahead and post this. It's a bit of a disorganized mini-essay on character construction.


Tier 1 Characters: Coat-hangers.
Examples: A Sound of Thunder (Ray Bradbury)

Tier 1 characters have very limited internal workings. What's going on in their heads is either purely reactive to the action or very simplistic thoughts required by the plot. Generally, such characters are unpublishably simple-minded, but an expert writer CAN use them effectively because their simple-mindedness won't hinder other parts of the story. Case in point with "A Sound of Thunder"; the characters don't exist to be their own entities, but to facilitate the idea of the story across.

Please note that "A Sound of Thunder" is a short story at 4,300 words. The action and characters are simple because the point is the idea, and once the idea is done the story ends. Generally, stories with Tier 1 characters have to be short to work because longer stories naturally require more characterization.


Tier 2 Characters: Single Paradigm (Cardboard Characters)
Examples: Sherlock Holmes, Any character from Star Wars, Star Trek, Harry Potter, The Wheel of Time, etc.

90% of characters in fiction are Tier 2 in one shade or another. Tier 2 characters are defined by having a single paradigm of how their minds work, and whatever happens they will always react in accordance to that paradigm.

In 1st Person and 3rd Person Limited, tier 2 or higher characters may project a unique presence in the narration by how they notice some things, ignore others, or just how they phrase things. All thought is based on the paradigm, so it arranges thought in a predictable pattern. In fact, most of the effort of writing tier 2 characters comes from getting used to thinking in that paradigm so that the writer can actually think from the character's point of view.


Tier 3 Characters: Paradigm Shift* (Round Characters)
Examples: Some characters in The Lord of the Rings, Memento, Shrek (weakly)

Tier 3 characters are relatively uncommon because they're significantly harder to write than tier 2 characters, but unless other parts of the story are specifically crafted to compliment the character there's seldom enough payoff. Tier 3 characters act like tier 2 characters most of the time, but under just the right circumstances, they shift paradigms and the reader becomes aware that the tier 2 was only ever a facade.

The key thing about Tier 3 characters is that they either have layered paradigms or an internal contradiction which forces a change in their thought paradigm...and then ON TOP of that, there's also a paradigm the writer is aware of which dictates what circumstances will put which paradigm in control. In many ways, tier 3 characters' thought paradigms act a lot like interacting tier 2 characters, with how they can reveal things about the character wholy unknown to anyone.

Shrek is a good (albeit very simple) example. From the start his thought paradigm of being a disgusting monster bachelor is explicit, but by the end of the story he shifts paradigms to care for Fiona (sp?). Viewers aren't really suprised by this --not only does it follow the cliche of the genre, it also was spoiled by Shrek's "onion metaphor" earlier-- but from Shrek's point of view, the paradigm shift comes as a great surpise.



So...that's how Egann thinks characters work in fiction. Hope it helps.

*Terminology shamelessy stolen from FF XIII.

[JRPomazon]

So I've started working on the story in the fashion I've always done things, half-assed and on the fly. I'll post samples when I write them.