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#91 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 03:52 PM

The Hero's Shade may be a hero, but he may not be a Link. Even the Knights of Hyrule were heroes. Look at the Imprisoning War at the beginning of aLttP, the Knight's of Hyrule, with help of the sages, took part in the sealing of Ganon. Link wasn't even involved with that battle. In that war, Ganon acquired the entire Triforce, and yet the legendary heroes are the sages/knights.

Also, the Sages in TP make no mention of Link and we do not see Link in TP's explanation of how Ganon was sealed. We all know that the ending to Ocarina of Time doesn't match up to the explanation that TP gives. Yes, things could've happened differently and Ganon's plans are thwarted in child Link's time, but why don't the TP Sages (who are not remotely close to the Sages we saw in OOT) make any mention of a legendary hero helping them? Therefore I know for sure the Hero's Shade is at least NOT Ocarina of Time Link.

#92 Average Gamer

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 05:12 PM

The Hero's Shade may be a hero, but he may not be a Link. Even the Knights of Hyrule were heroes.


That was the entire group, not an individual hero. OoT/MM Link is repeatedly called a hero throughout TP, and no one else is. With everything in mind, the Hero's Shade is either OoT/MM Link, the only person we know is a hero, or some completely random dude who's exploits aren't even remembered.

Also, the Sages in TP make no mention of Link and we do not see Link in TP's explanation of how Ganon was sealed.


Presumably because he didn't help stop Ganon on the CT. The Gorons and Zora still honor OoT/MM Link as a hero.

#93 FDL

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 10:26 PM

It's not just the Gorons and Zoras, and the green tunic is stated as coming from a hero who saved Hyrule from a calamity, not just the Gorons and Zoras. The Sages not specifically referencing that Link does nothing to indicate he's some obscure hero.

Edited by FDL, 10 November 2009 - 10:27 PM.


#94 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 12:32 PM

That was the entire group, not an individual hero. OoT/MM Link is repeatedly called a hero throughout TP, and no one else is. With everything in mind, the Hero's Shade is either OoT/MM Link, the only person we know is a hero, or some completely random dude who's exploits aren't even remembered.


The latter would make sense, since the Hero's Shade keeps lamenting his failures.

#95 Masamune

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 12:38 PM

The Hero's Shade is the Link who didn't appear in The Wind Waker's backstory, due to being born in the wrong Timeline by a complete oversight on behalf of the goddesses. Naturally this makes him sad.

#96 Average Gamer

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 02:17 PM

The latter would make sense, since the Hero's Shade keeps lamenting his failures.


Lamenting his failures? All he says is that he couldn't find a person to pass his skills on to. Seeing as how Hyrule seemingly became a kingdom of wimps in the transition from OoT to TP (as evidenced by the military), the inability to find a successor could apply to OoT/MM Link.

Anyway, back to Spirit Tracks.

#97 SOAP

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 05:52 AM

I thought we were past the Hero Shade=OoT Link debates.

Really it's something that all we can do is agree to disagree because arguing over it never solves anything. If he is OoT Link there aren't any obvious clues and some of the subtler hints are too easy to write off. On the other hand saying they can't be the same because they don't look the same is unfair because even if two people/objects/locations are blatantly simmilar they still not the same unless otherwise stated by the caretors themselves. You acn't win either way. I say give the theory a benefit of the doubt. it doesn't seriously mess up anything other than potential paradox of having two copies of the same reincarnated soul interacting with each other. But then again other forms of fiction get away with it pretty easily (cough...Caprica..cough you CAN copy a soul.)

Anyways, what makes me think he's OoT Link (or possibly any Link) has nothing to do with fancy footwork or the fact he's a hero. One subtle hint is the blade of his sword. The hilt is completely different but the blade is exactly the same as the Master Sword, down to the Triforce emblem. The Master Sword is Link's trademark weapon. No other character has ever been shown to use it. Sure other swords are simmilar such as the White Sword, the Noble Sword, the Phatom Sword ect but they're used by incarnations of Link. It's just too specific a detail to write off.

Another thing is how the Shade also appears as a golden wolf. The fact that he appears as a wolf probably means nothing but the color gold itself is repeatedly associated with the Triforce, and by extension the Triforce Bearers. TP is no exception anything related to the Triforce is emphasized by this color. If he's some random hero, why all the gold?

Edited by SOAP, 12 November 2009 - 05:54 AM.


#98 Raien

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 02:33 PM

Gold makes the wolf easier to see when travelling. Most people (especially gamers) are subconsciously trained to look for gold because it carries the promise of a reward.

#99 FDL

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 02:40 PM

Well, some new Famitsu scans have come out, and apparently the person who raised/lives with Link in this game is old man Niko, who appears to actually be the one from TWW.

http://www.zeldauniv...the-wind-waker/
http://gonintendo.co...y.php?id=103905

Interesting choice for a return character...

#100 Person

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 05:03 PM

Well, some new Famitsu scans have come out, and apparently the person who raised/lives with Link in this game is old man Niko, who appears to actually be the one from TWW.

http://www.zeldauniv...the-wind-waker/
http://gonintendo.co...y.php?id=103905

Interesting choice for a return character...

It will be interesting to see if the TWW Link is still around.

#101 SOAP

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 03:16 AM

Well, some new Famitsu scans have come out, and apparently the person who raised/lives with Link in this game is old man Niko, who appears to actually be the one from TWW.

http://www.zeldauniv...the-wind-waker/
http://gonintendo.co...y.php?id=103905

Interesting choice for a return character...


It certainly would set up a totally new precendant. As far as I recall never has the same incarnation of the same character appeared in two games taking place in seperate eras aside from Ganondorf. Especially not a minor character such as Niko. Reincarnations are one thing but this is something totally different for the Zelda games and I kinda like it. I wonder if this implies the ST Link is a direct decendant of TWW Link if ST Link is being raised by a friend of TWW Link?

#102 Fin

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 03:26 AM

I hope this trend of tight continuity on the Wind Waker timeline continues in future games.

#103 Masamune

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 11:06 AM

Well, some new Famitsu scans have come out, and apparently the person who raised/lives with Link in this game is old man Niko, who appears to actually be the one from TWW.

http://www.zeldauniv...the-wind-waker/
http://gonintendo.co...y.php?id=103905

Interesting choice for a return character...


It certainly would set up a totally new precendant. As far as I recall never has the same incarnation of the same character appeared in two games taking place in seperate eras aside from Ganondorf. Especially not a minor character such as Niko. Reincarnations are one thing but this is something totally different for the Zelda games and I kinda like it. I wonder if this implies the ST Link is a direct decendant of TWW Link if ST Link is being raised by a friend of TWW Link?


Well, there was the Great Deku Tree, but that is admittedly a bit different. But that's awesome they're bringing back Niko. Maybe there is something to the old woman Tetra...

#104 FDL

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 04:10 PM

Well now the opening of the game can be found here. Nothing new is said but I figured someone may wanna check it out.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and judging from this video Niko is the one telling the story in the first one.

Edited by FDL, 13 November 2009 - 04:19 PM.


#105 Average Gamer

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 05:15 PM

Good find with the first video FDL.

#106 Mad Scrub

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 05:21 PM

I'm kind of split down the middle about Niko. Yes, it's nice that the games seem to be flowing together better now but it also takes some of the mystery out of it. You can still be vague without spelling it out for people (i.e. use words like Legendary Hero to refer to a previous Link and so on). Still looking forward to it.

#107 Average Gamer

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 09:08 PM

As pointed out to me by Lex, the Japanese ST website now features a good shot of Link's shield. The page might not load, so click on something else then click on the first box on the top-left to make the image show up.

http://www.nintendo....dex.html#/touch

#108 Person

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 09:12 PM

As pointed out to me by Lex, the Japanese ST website now features a good shot of Link's shield. The page might not load, so click on something else then click on the first box on the top-left to make the image show up.

http://www.nintendo....dex.html#/touch

Interesting that there's no Triforce on it, even if the familiar bird symbol is.

#109 Sign of Justice

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 03:50 AM

I'm kind of split down the middle about Niko. Yes, it's nice that the games seem to be flowing together better now but it also takes some of the mystery out of it. You can still be vague without spelling it out for people (i.e. use words like Legendary Hero to refer to a previous Link and so on). Still looking forward to it.

In the context of theorizing, I'm glad it's as non-vague as possible. Otherwise we'd get "that ain't Niko" stupid theories.

It's a lot nicer when it IS obvious, that way you don't waste time looking at stupid ass theories that go against what is clear.

#110 SOAP

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 04:04 AM

As pointed out to me by Lex, the Japanese ST website now features a good shot of Link's shield. The page might not load, so click on something else then click on the first box on the top-left to make the image show up.

http://www.nintendo....dex.html#/touch

Interesting that there's no Triforce on it, even if the familiar bird symbol is.


No, what's really interesting is that the intro includes a FOUR golden triangles depicted in one one of images of the battle between Mallard and the spirits of good. Not to resurface any tetraforce thories but this couple by the fact "New Hyrule" seems associated by a new singular upside down triangle which the fourth piece of the triforce is often depicted as... it just seems rather too odd to be a coincidence.

#111 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 12:50 PM

Force Gems are often depicted upside down and golden, too.

#112 Erimgard

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 01:09 PM

The Triangles likely represent Force (as we know you collect Force Gems, as well as the similarly functioning Tears of Light) and the fact that there are four of them likely indicates the four corners/dungeons to which the Tracks connect.

#113 SOAP

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 03:41 PM

The Triangles likely represent Force (as we know you collect Force Gems, as well as the similarly functioning Tears of Light) and the fact that there are four of them likely indicates the four corners/dungeons to which the Tracks connect.


Yeah exactly. It's the Force from the FS games and PH. Represented as golden triangles as it was in PH and TMC. And now there's four of them. What would you call that?

Personally I wouldn't want it to be the Tetraforce. Introducing a fourth piece this late in the series would be a bad move and just comes across as fanficcy. It mostly just has to do with Force gems like in PH. I'm just pointing out the whole four theme they seem to be heading in. Might have more to do with the the Four Sword if ST does indeed lead into the FS games. If not, then it's an odd coincidence.

#114 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 01:17 PM

Or it's just a form of Monadism, in Numerology, the number begets the next, so the three goddesses designed a world based on four.

(I once wrote a kinda crappy fanfic where the purpose of Hyrule's existence turned out to be to nurture the birth of a fourth Goddess from it, to complete the sisters.)

#115 ganonlord6000

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 05:36 PM

The ST opening is interesting. What is Mallard supposed to be? From the fire and the shape of his head, he looks like a dragon of some sort. I could tell from the opening that this guy is a lot nastier than Ganon was (at least OOT's Ganon. Classic Ganon is about as nasty). Looks like a good game. Maybe OOT and ALTTP finally met their match. Seriously. People are obsessed with those and ignore the other games. And NP has some interesting ST info. Apparantly, ST looks like a short game. There are only four part of the temple to be restored and it turns out that the demon train from the trailer belongs to Cole. Sometihng interesting that someone on ZI brought up: according to Japanese mythology, there can only be one maiu (I think that is the term) can exist is one universe at a time. If that applies to Zelda, the OOT's Ganon is gone forever. Speaking of ZI, it seems that they ignore all of the OOT=IW contradictions and ignore TP's foreshadowing ALTTP.

#116 SOAP

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 01:31 AM

Or it's just a form of Monadism, in Numerology, the number begets the next, so the three goddesses designed a world based on four.

(I once wrote a kinda crappy fanfic where the purpose of Hyrule's existence turned out to be to nurture the birth of a fourth Goddess from it, to complete the sisters.)


I just thought of something. Maybe it's four triangles representing four Light Spirits.

Edit: To clarify, it's just four triangles representing the spirits that did battle against mallard and sealed him up, with nothing to do with Triforce pieces whatsoever other than to denote their divinity.

Edited by SOAP, 16 November 2009 - 02:35 AM.


#117 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 01:44 PM

Sometihng interesting that someone on ZI brought up: according to Japanese mythology, there can only be one maiu (I think that is the term) can exist is one universe at a time. If that applies to Zelda, the OOT's Ganon is gone forever. Speaking of ZI, it seems that they ignore all of the OOT=IW contradictions and ignore TP's foreshadowing ALTTP.


That guy is totally speaking out of his ass. Japanese mythology has atleast a few tails of Maou fighting over territories to expand their power. The Maou isn't anything analogous to a "Satan" figure.

#118 Erimgard

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 05:24 PM

@ganonlord

I believe you're referring to something I said.
I had been told that generally in anime and video games, there's usually only one Maou and/or the primary antagonist was often known as Maou, and thus, the emergance of a new Maou could mark the end of Ganon in the adult timeline.

I'm well aware that "Maou" is in no way synonymous to "Satan".
Thanks for clarifying on the multiple Maous issue MPS.

#119 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 12:44 PM

I had been told that generally in anime and video games, there's usually only one Maou and/or the primary antagonist was often known as Maou, and thus, the emergance of a new Maou could mark the end of Ganon in the adult timeline.


LOL, anime.

Maou have territories, so if the setting is local enough, then yes, there's only one Maou. But mostly there's only one in stuff like anime and games because multiple villains is usually complicating and unnecessary. I do agree Ganon's possibly gone, though.

#120 SOAP

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Posted 18 November 2009 - 05:17 PM

It's a new land, so it makes sense there's a new Maou along with it. I don't know if this means ganon's gone for good. Let's just hope this game doesn't get hijacked by Ganon like TP and FSA did.




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