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The Postman Problem and Resultant Debate


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#31 Person

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 02:52 PM

Alternatively, it's the Postman from TP, and he pulled a Legend of the Fairy by going to Termina and then to the other timeline where TWW is.

Or he's not a real Rito and just one of those guys playing dress-up like those two running the Deku Leaf minigame.

#32 GuardianNinja

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 03:48 PM

dress up o.O they only let deku link play

#33 Average Gamer

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 04:43 PM

Uh, not really. There would be no reason to mention that his ancestor was a postman if it wasn't a reference to the guy who lived centuries earlier who is also a postman and looks just like him.


As Person said, it could easily just be a strange easter egg, not to mention that knowledge of the past on the Great Sea has generally been ravaged. The guy also just looks like a Rito instead of a hybrid.

And the Running Man doesn't necessarily have to become a postman for it to work. Maybe it was the Postman from Majora's Mask. People CAN travel between Hyrule and Termina.


Wouldn't the Lost Woods potentially kill them?

#34 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 01:44 PM

Who says Lost Woods was the only portal?

#35 Average Gamer

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 05:19 PM

Who says Lost Woods was the only portal?


To our knowledge, no portal to Termina exists outside of the one in the Lost Woods. Claiming that other portals exist would be a total assumption.

#36 Duke Serkol

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:08 PM

Not if we are speculating it in order to explain how the Rito postman could descend from the Termina postman, who was the only eligible candidate for that reference at the time.
Not to mention we also have the legend of the fairy, at least another indication of a connection to Termina after Link's adventure in it, which occurred after the timeline split and in the other timeline.
Which would seem to indicate that the split did not affect Termina and that there is in fact a second portal that leads to the Hyrule of the other timeline (either that or the one portal "fluctuates" and leads to either timeline randomly, I guess).

...not that I think the lost woods would necessarily have killed the postman.
1) They take their time to kill people, it's not instantaneous.
2) We are not even sure that it's those woods the portal was in.
3) The condition of Lost Woods can apparently be gained and lost over time since those of OoT don't seem to be the same seen in ALttP (location wise), and in actuality it's not necessarily the postman himself who'd need to have moved into Hyrule, could be one of his descendants.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 07 August 2009 - 08:13 PM.


#37 Average Gamer

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:36 PM

Not if we are speculating it in order to explain how the Rito postman could descend from the Termina postman, who was the only eligible candidate for that reference at the time.
Not to mention we also have the legend of the fairy, at least another indication of a connection to Termina after Link's adventure in it, which occurred after the timeline split and in the other timeline.


Again, couldn't the Hyrulian parallel of MM's Tingle have simply heard about the Hero of Time's story and made up his own to go with it? Tingle was deluded enough to claim that fairy magic powered his tower when his brothers were working like slaves right in front of him.

...not that I think the lost woods would necessarily have killed the postman.
1) They take their time to kill people, it's not instantaneous.


But people get lost in them, which is why everyone eventually perishes.

2) We are not even sure that it's those woods the portal was in.


They look like the Lost Woods, not to mention that the Lost Woods were connected to Zora's Domain and Goron City by what appeared to be portals in OoT.

3) The condition of Lost Woods can apparently be gained and lost over time since those of OoT don't seem to be the same seen in ALttP (location wise),


The Lost Woods in ALttP were just a haven for thieves though. They might be a different place with the same name.

Edited by Average Gamer, 07 August 2009 - 09:43 PM.


#38 Person

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:43 PM

Can't they just be easter eggs we don't have to overanalyze and bring interspecies interdimensional romance over on it?

#39 GuardianNinja

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:11 AM

You have to for multiple Ganons dont you? and besides im starting to see a pattern, Ganon always knows that Link is Link, even if its a different one than that he fought last time......

#40 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 02:17 PM

To our knowledge, no portal to Termina exists outside of the one in the Lost Woods. Claiming that other portals exist would be a total assumption.


There's multiple portals to every other dimension, why not Termina?

You have to for multiple Ganons dont you? and besides im starting to see a pattern, Ganon always knows that Link is Link, even if its a different one than that he fought last time......


Green clothes, Master Sword, Triforce of Courage...it's not that hard to figure out.

#41 Duke Serkol

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 02:24 PM

couldn't the Hyrulian parallel of MM's Tingle have simply heard about the Hero of Time's story and made up his own to go with it? Tingle was deluded enough

It's certaily possible, but is it at all likely to be what the programmers intended when they made the reference? I would say no, that the only immediately evident connection at the time would have had to be MM's Tingle.
The only other viable alternative I see, is to do as Person and dismiss these things as pointless Easter Eggs. I don't feel the need to dismiss these as uncanon easter eggs, but I have no qualms if he wants to.

But people get lost in them, which is why everyone eventually perishes.

Isn't it only the persistent ones? In most games we've seen them, the Lost Woods usually have one easy way out (which isn't necessarily the way one came from).

They look like the Lost Woods, not to mention that the Lost Woods were connected to Zora's Domain and Goron City by what appeared to be portals in OoT.

I'm not saying they aren't the Lost Woods, I'm saying we can't consider it a fact.

The Lost Woods in ALttP were just a haven for thieves though. They might be a different place with the same name.

Yes, but the Lost Woods of LoZ were in the west, tus matching with those of ALttP and not those of OoT (that were instead in the east).

#42 GuardianNinja

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 03:03 PM

What if Hyrule migrated?

#43 Average Gamer

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 04:50 PM

There's multiple portals to every other dimension, why not Termina?


Multiple? That only applies to the Sacred Realm in ALttP. In OoT there was apparently just one portal to the Sacred Realm and the Twilight Realm in TP had only one portal as well.

It's certaily possible, but is it at all likely to be what the programmers intended when they made the reference?


There are quotes in TWW supporting the Split Timeline. Majora's Mask already showed us that pretty much everyone in Termina is based off of someone in Hyrule. In TWW we presumably saw the man that MM's Tingle was based off of. The Hero of Time's legend was popular in Hyrule and Tingle in TWW works with maps and has a balloon as well, so he could have simply made up his own legend.

Isn't it only the persistent ones? In most games we've seen them, the Lost Woods usually have one easy way out (which isn't necessarily the way one came from).


However, in OoT Link was raised by the Kokiri and was used to the forest, not to mention that he had a fairy. That "easy way out" may have only been known to him. Additionally, the Lost Woods in ALttP don't appear to have the same effects as the Lost Woods in OoT.

I'm not saying they aren't the Lost Woods, I'm saying we can't consider it a fact.


The Lost Woods are, however, the most likely candidate, and I doubt that Skull Kid would have ever left the Lost Woods in the first place.

Yes, but the Lost Woods of LoZ were in the west, tus matching with those of ALttP and not those of OoT (that were instead in the east).


Did the Lost Woods of LoZ even do anything though?

Can't they just be easter eggs we don't have to overanalyze and bring interspecies interdimensional romance over on it?


Hopefully, but considering how adamantly people treated "Triumph Forks" in TMC, it sadly doesn't look like it.

#44 Hana-Nezumi

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 05:01 PM

Can't they just be easter eggs we don't have to overanalyze and bring interspecies interdimensional romance over on it?

No way! Interspecies interdimensional romance is the best kind of romance!

#45 GuardianNinja

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 05:07 PM

It's certaily possible, but is it at all likely to be what the programmers intended when they made the reference?


There are quotes in TWW supporting the Split Timeline. Majora's Mask already showed us that pretty much everyone in Termina is based off of someone in Hyrule. In TWW we presumably saw the man that MM's Tingle was based off of. The Hero of Time's legend was popular in Hyrule and Tingle in TWW works with maps and has a balloon as well, so he could have simply made up his own legend.


Nuh Nuh No. The developers even stated that they look similar because the team reused models to finish the game faster, that was the only reason. If they wanted to take there time, we would have seen characters that looked different from OoT.

#46 Fin

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 05:13 PM

It's certaily possible, but is it at all likely to be what the programmers intended when they made the reference?


There are quotes in TWW supporting the Split Timeline. Majora's Mask already showed us that pretty much everyone in Termina is based off of someone in Hyrule. In TWW we presumably saw the man that MM's Tingle was based off of. The Hero of Time's legend was popular in Hyrule and Tingle in TWW works with maps and has a balloon as well, so he could have simply made up his own legend.


Nuh Nuh No. The developers even stated that they look similar because the team reused models to finish the game faster, that was the only reason. If they wanted to take there time, we would have seen characters that looked different from OoT.


That's just the production reason. It's explained away (at least in my version of the manual) by the alternate universe thing.

#47 Showsni

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 06:44 PM

Time constraints caused the resued character models caused the Termina is an alternate world explanation; I wonder if Termina would just have been another place in the same world if they'd have had more time?

Did the Lost Woods of LoZ even do anything though?


They're like the Lost Woods of OoT; to get through them you have to follow a certain pattern. Same with the "Lost Hills" in LoZ.

The Lost Woods are, however, the most likely candidate, and I doubt that Skull Kid would have ever left the Lost Woods in the first place.


Why not? He's not even from Hyrule, he's from Termina; and he certainly goes all over Termina.


#48 Masamune

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 06:49 PM

What if there was more than one postman in the entire world.

#49 Showsni

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 06:54 PM

That's ridiculous. That's like saying people need to eat to live.

#50 GuardianNinja

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 07:07 PM

XD

#51 Duke Serkol

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 07:24 PM

There are quotes in TWW supporting the Split Timeline.

Of course there are, which is why I said this can be indication that Termina has another portal connecting to TWW's Hyrule.

Majora's Mask already showed us that pretty much everyone in Termina is based off of someone in Hyrule. In TWW we presumably saw the man that MM's Tingle was based off of.

The first part of this statement is more or less correct, yes. MOST people in Termina have counterparts in Hyrule, but not just everyone. But if Tingle did, I imagine it would have been someone we didn't meet during OoT, not someone who we encounter centuries later.

The Hero of Time's legend was popular in Hyrule and Tingle in TWW works with maps and has a balloon as well, so he could have simply made up his own legend.

Oh! You're suggesting that the legend was made up by the very Tingle we see in TWW, not an ancestor of his, I see...
well no, that doesn't persuade me at all, sorry. It seems a way to deliberately misread what we see in the game.

in OoT Link was raised by the Kokiri and was used to the forest, not to mention that he had a fairy. That "easy way out" may have only been known to him.

He learned the easy way out and not the easy way in?
And he did also in LoZ were he was officially a stranger?

I doubt that Skull Kid would have ever left the Lost Woods in the first place.

Good point: we meet the Skull Kids in the Lost Woods during OoT so it's reasonable that MM starts with an encounter with one also happening in there (though it of course has to be a different part of the woods that is off of Hyrule's borders).

Did the Lost Woods of LoZ even do anything though?


They're like the Lost Woods of OoT; to get through them you have to follow a certain pattern. Same with the "Lost Hills" in LoZ.

Well put Showsni.
Lost Hills is, I believe, a fanmade name. The closest thing to an official name would be Hebra Hill, from FSA.

What if there was more than one postman in the entire world.

There certainly is more than one postman. The issue here is that we had already met a postman with that very same face and it was the one in MM, hence the reference was supposedly to him.
It's that simple.

If this bothers you, just write it off as a random easter egg of no importance.

#52 Average Gamer

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:52 PM

Why not? He's not even from Hyrule, he's from Termina;


Seeing as how the Lost Woods are in Hyrule, it's more likely that Skull Kid was once a person from Hyrule who got lost there.

and he certainly goes all over Termina.


Yet the portal to Termina is apparently in the Lost Woods, and in the ancient tale he only hung around the Giants.

Of course there are, which is why I said this can be indication that Termina has another portal connecting to TWW's Hyrule.


Yet if time itself was split in two, shouldn't all things influenced by time be split as well? The separate timelines are, after all, timelines, so I doubt that they coexist in the way Hyrule does with the Twilight Realm or something.

The first part of this statement is more or less correct, yes. MOST people in Termina have counterparts in Hyrule, but not just everyone.


Yet that can be explained by the Hyrulian person living somewhere Link didn't travel to, having died before Link's journey, or having not been born yet. The people are parallels but their ages are different. When Ruto was a child, her Terminian parallel was an adult and expecting children.

But if Tingle did, I imagine it would have been someone we didn't meet during OoT, not someone who we encounter centuries later.


As I said above, though the people are parallels, their ages aren't. Heck, depending on your views regarding the Fierce Deity Mask, Link could have had a Terminian parallel that preceded him by ages.

well no, that doesn't persuade me at all, sorry. It seems a way to deliberately misread what we see in the game.


How?

He learned the easy way out and not the easy way in?


He was raised in the forest by forest spirits. He could have been familiar with the whole place.

And he did also in LoZ were he was officially a stranger?


It may have been a different place seeing as how there were no apparent zombie curses or forest people. In LoZ the Lost Woods and "Lost Hills" could have been more like the swamp in MM.

#53 GuardianNinja

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 10:14 PM

Why not? He's not even from Hyrule, he's from Termina;


Seeing as how the Lost Woods are in Hyrule, it's more likely that Skull Kid was once a person from Hyrule who got lost there.

and he certainly goes all over Termina.


Yet the portal to Termina is apparently in the Lost Woods, and in the ancient tale he only hung around the Giants.


Bold:

No, its canon that he is indeed a Termanian not a hyrulian person, as in he was born and grew up there.

Underline:

No, its also canon that hes friends with them but they left to do there duties, thats why he was sad in MM and stole the mask.

#54 Average Gamer

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 11:22 PM

No, its canon that he is indeed a Termanian not a hyrulian person, as in he was born and grew up there.


What's the proof? I've never heard of anything claiming that Skull Kid was a Terminian.

No, its also canon that hes friends with them but they left to do there duties


I know that. I pointed out that he was friends with the Giants and mainly hung out with them until they left.

Edit: Just in case a translator missed the initial request, here it is again.

Hopefully this isn't seen as any sort of thread necro.

Anyway, theorists on Zelda Universe are beginning to think that Hylians and Zoras might be the same species only because of the Rito Postman Koboli in The Wind Waker.

http://images4.wikia...9/91/Koboli.jpg

Because of his resemblance to the Running Man of OoT and his figurine description:

Koboli
Birthplace: Windfall Island
Occupation: Mail sorter

Koboli is the third generation in a family
of postmen, but rumor has it that an
ancestor of his in an age gone by was also
a postman...


People are beginning to think that the Running Man screwed a Zora and had kids. Could somebody please look at the Japanese figurine description of Koboli to see if this is shot down by the original translation or not? Thanks in advance.


Edited by Average Gamer, 09 August 2009 - 12:05 AM.


#55 GuardianNinja

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 10:16 AM

While Link first encounters the Skull Kid in the Lost Woods of Hyrule, dialog in Majora's Mask suggests that the Skull Kid is possibly from Termina.


Im sure someone else could give better evidence.

#56 Duke Serkol

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 10:42 AM

if time itself was split in two, shouldn't all things influenced by time be split as well? The separate timelines are, after all, timelines, so I doubt that they coexist in the way Hyrule does with the Twilight Realm or something.

I don't know about the Twilight Realm, it isn't exactly clear what that dimension is, whether it is a one the Goddesses created specifically for the Twili's ancestors or it existed already.
But Termina, unlike the Sacred Realm which has deep ties to Hyrule (some, including me, even speculating that it was once part of it), is a completely separate dimension, one in which time seems to move at a different pace than Hyrule (consider all the things Skull Kid did after he got the Mask and that Tatl doesn't know about. They must have happened after she got ditched with Link. And in that span of time, Tael was able to learn about the giants).
If time is not a constant for the two dimensions, why should a timeline split in one affect the other?
The timelines may not coexist in quite the same way as two separate dimensions, but they do both continue to exist, and being able to travel between them doesn't seem any more unlikely/implausible to me than traveling between different dimensions/realities.
And being that the case, having no reason to rule out travel between timelines as any more unlikely than that between dimensions, why shouldn't I presume that it did occur when one of the game presents me something that seems to indicate that it did in fact happen?

well no, that doesn't persuade me at all, sorry. It seems a way to deliberately misread what we see in the game.


How?

What you suggest is either that TWW Tingle went and placed the legend of the fairy inscriptions within the Tower of the Gods before Link got there (which seems impossible), or that he made them up on the spot (even producing the documents he reads out to Link out of nowhere without him realizing it).
What player would go and think of this, rather than take them at face value as some inscriptions that were left into the Tower of the Gods ages ago?

He was raised in the forest by forest spirits. He could have been familiar with the whole place.

But apparently he wasn't, or we wouldn't always be brought back to the entrance.

It may have been a different place seeing as how there were no apparent zombie curses or forest people. In LoZ the Lost Woods and "Lost Hills" could have been more like the swamp in MM.

Perhaps. But just because we don't see a curse taking effect doesn't mean there isn't one (and the forest people aren't keen on being seen by outsiders, are they?), so I'd rather think that they share more than just the name and the magical maze properties.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 09 August 2009 - 11:33 AM.


#57 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 01:41 PM

Multiple? That only applies to the Sacred Realm in ALttP. In OoT there was apparently just one portal to the Sacred Realm and the Twilight Realm in TP had only one portal as well.


The portals of LTTP were just never accessed in OOT. :P There's also the few gates of the Minish Realm and FSA's Dark World, and according to Word of God the portals Midna and Link use to teleport technically tunnel through the Twilight Realm in some weird quantum way.

#58 Average Gamer

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 05:01 PM

While Link first encounters the Skull Kid in the Lost Woods of Hyrule, dialog in Majora's Mask suggests that the Skull Kid is possibly from Termina.


Zelda Wiki sucks. It's poorly edited, only uses NoA quotes, and anything can get posted on there. On ZU someone mentioned that Zelda Wiki's Sacred Grove page says that TP might take place on the Adult Timeline.

But Termina, unlike the Sacred Realm which has deep ties to Hyrule (some, including me, even speculating that it was once part of it), is a completely separate dimension, one in which time seems to move at a different pace than Hyrule (consider all the things Skull Kid did after he got the Mask and that Tatl doesn't know about. They must have happened after she got ditched with Link. And in that span of time, Tael was able to learn about the giants).


Yet despite the different flows of time, Hyrule and Termina are both effected by time regardless. If Zelda split time itself, shouldn't all things effected by time be split as well?

If time is not a constant for the two dimensions, why should a timeline split in one affect the other?


Because both places are still influenced by time and it was time itself that Zelda split.

The timelines may not coexist in quite the same way as two separate dimensions, but they do both continue to exist, and being able to travel between them doesn't seem any more unlikely/implausible to me than traveling between different dimensions/realities.


In MM, Link came from CT Hyrule and went back to CT Hyrule. I doubt that he could have somehow ended up on the Adult Timeline.

And being that the case, having no reason to rule out travel between timelines as any more unlikely than that between dimensions, why shouldn't I presume that it did occur when one of the game presents me something that seems to indicate that it did in fact happen?


The reference is on an easter egg level and Koboli the Rito just looks like a Rito, not some sort of half-breed. If anything it's more likely that the Running Man became a postman instead of a postman in a different dimension settling down in Hyrule.

What you suggest is either that TWW Tingle went and placed the legend of the fairy inscriptions within the Tower of the Gods before Link got there (which seems impossible), or that he made them up on the spot (even producing the documents he reads out to Link out of nowhere without him realizing it).


Need I remind you that this is the guy who claims that his tower is powered by fairy magic when his brothers are pushing on it like slaves? He's not right in the head.

What player would go and think of this, rather than take them at face value as some inscriptions that were left into the Tower of the Gods ages ago?


If MM's Tingle lived in Termina as a map maker to help out his father, what would make him go to Hyrule in the first place? Additionally, Tingle from TWW could have had an equally deluded ancestor who wrote the initial tale. Purlo in TP, after all, was supposed to be based off of Tingle, and in TP King Zora from OoT had only died recently.

But apparently he wasn't, or we wouldn't always be brought back to the entrance.


If anything that shows that Link can find his way back instead of being trapped forever like regular people.

Perhaps. But just because we don't see a curse taking effect doesn't mean there isn't one


Yet the effects of the area in LoZ are not exclusive, as shown by the "Lost Hills". ALttP also shows us that a place can bear the name Lost Woods without being cursed either.

(and the forest people aren't keen on being seen by outsiders, are they?),


True, but Link could meet them as an adult in OoT and they weren't really freaked out by him.

The portals of LTTP were just never accessed in OOT.


I know. I just said apparently in case someone would argue that the IW or Agahnim somehow created those ALttP ones.

There's also the few gates of the Minish Realm


Wasn't there only one real portal that opened every hundred years or something?

and FSA's Dark World,


Wasn't that just made up of various parts of Hyrule that Ganon corrupted?

and according to Word of God the portals Midna and Link use to teleport technically tunnel through the Twilight Realm in some weird quantum way.


Could you please link to that Word of God statement? Also, it seems like the Mirror of Twilight was the only way to properly get into the Twilight Realm.

#59 Duke Serkol

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 06:12 PM

Yet despite the different flows of time, Hyrule and Termina are both effected by time regardless. If Zelda split time itself, shouldn't all things effected by time be split as well?

Time and space are inscindible. If you move at a sufficient speed, time slows down. If you find yourself within a sufficiently strong gravitational pull, time slows down.
Time isn't it's own thing. If the dimensions are distinct then so can be their time continuum. Especially if they have two distinct flows of time that occur at different speeds.

In MM, Link came from CT Hyrule and went back to CT Hyrule. I doubt that he could have somehow ended up on the Adult Timeline.

Which is why I keep saying again and again that this may suggest the existence of other portals. Are you reading my posts before replying?

The reference is on an easter egg level and Koboli the Rito just looks like a Rito, not some sort of half-breed.

Didn't I say you may freely write it off as such? I'm not going to argue against that interpretation.

Need I remind you that this is the guy who claims that his tower is powered by fairy magic when his brothers are pushing on it like slaves? He's not right in the head.

Need I remind you that Link isn't blind and should not be so easily deceived by not realizing (and not have the player realize) that Tingle is reading inscriptions that do not exist?
Or that no player in the right of their mind would think of that?

If MM's Tingle lived in Termina as a map maker to help out his father, what would make him go to Hyrule in the first place?

I said before it doesn't have to be him, it could be anybody who knew about him and could pass down the legend.
...not that it really is necessary to find a reason for Tingle to start traveling.

Additionally, Tingle from TWW could have had an equally deluded ancestor who wrote the initial tale.

They could, but why should the player assume so when the candidate that most readily comes to mind is another?

If anything that shows that Link can find his way back instead of being trapped forever like regular people.

Ok, this is where I give up talking to you. I've brought up once again how the very same mechanic occurs in other games in which Link can not know the forest, yet you refuse to listen. At this point, I see no use in continuing to waste my time repeating the same responses over and over.

Please, no discussion in the translation thread. To continue this discussion, someone start a new thread, and I'll move the relevant posts across.

Sorry Showsni; that's ok, I was done anyway.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 09 August 2009 - 06:29 PM.


#60 Average Gamer

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  • Location:The Haunted Wasteland

Posted 09 August 2009 - 07:27 PM

I'll just PM a response to you.




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