271 replies to this topic

[Raien]

Just because a woman wrote a book without the typical vampire storyline doesn't mean that it is crap. And so what if Edward is whiny and clingy...his character is a bit annoying at times..the fact of the matter is that most girls like to feel special and loved. Not every girl is after sex..and sometimes the thought of a character who isn't a sexed crazed maniac is a nice change of pace. I personally don't really like the Edward Character..but the story in itself is entertaining non the less.

You're saying it's nice to see male protagonists who aren't obsessed with sex, and yet the way that all the male characters are portrayed as beautiful people with ripped abs, it's quite clear that the female Twilight audience don't exactly have virtuous fantasies. It's the sort of hypocrisy that made the teenage girl fanbase of the Spice Girls so hilarious. Just listen to the chorus of "Wannabe":

If you wanna be my lover,
You got to get with my friends.
Make it last forever.
Friendship never ends.

If you wanna be my lover,
You have got to give.
Taking is too easy,
But that's the way it is.

So the message here is, love can only work under the condition that the boyfriend submits himself to the girl's friends, and boys must often give presents to the girl (no mention that the girl should give presents to the boy. Fuck no!). Is it any wonder that young girls fell in love with the Spice Girls?

Young girls can say the quality of a book or song doesn't matter as long as it feeds their fantasies, but often good quality songs/books come about from a representation of genuine, substantial love between both partners. Twilight doesn't give that, because Bella doesn't love Edward for his personality (he doesn't have one), and hence the book is seen for the crap that it is.

Edited by Raien, 03 December 2009 - 08:30 PM.

[Emiko]

Just because a woman wrote a book without the typical vampire storyline doesn't mean that it is crap. And so what if Edward is whiny and clingy...his character is a bit annoying at times..the fact of the matter is that most girls like to feel special and loved. Not every girl is after sex..and sometimes the thought of a character who isn't a sexed crazed maniac is a nice change of pace. I personally don't really like the Edward Character..but the story in itself is entertaining non the less.

You're saying it's nice to see male protagonists who aren't obsessed with sex, and yet the way that all the male characters are portrayed as beautiful people with ripped abs, it's quite clear that the female Twilight audience don't exactly have virtuous fantasies. It's the sort of hilarious hypocrisy that made the teenage girl fanbase of the Spice Girls so hilarious. Just listen to the chorus of "Wannabe":

If you wanna be my lover,
You got to get with my friends.
Make it last forever.
Friendship never ends.

If you wanna be my lover,
You have got to give.
Taking is too easy,
But that's the way it is.

So the message here is, love can only work under the condition that the boyfriend submits himself to the girl's friends, and boys must often give presents to the girl (no mention that the girl should give presents to the boy. Fuck no!).

Young girls can say the quality of a book or song doesn't matter as long as it feeds their fantasies, but often good quality songs/books come about from a representation of genuine, substantial love between both partners. Twilight doesn't give that, because Bella doesn't love Edward for his personality (he doesn't have one), and hence the book is seen for the crap that it is.

Why the heck are you comparing it to a crappy song? Just because he is a "vampire" doesn't mean that he doesn't have a personality..you are arguing about a character in a book. He doesn't have a "personality" because he isn't real. You call it crap..millions of others call it art. Most of the time people don't like it because of the way he "sparkles". So what? It is a depiction of a made up character. You can say the same thing about the werewolves in Underworld. The werewolf myth in general are that they are uncontrollable beasts that take wolf form in the light of a full moon. The concept that they can change at will goes against everything the original character was created for...as a monster.

As for personality, if you are saying he has no personality because he is a vampire..Dracula had a personality. His character was a sad an depressing character who only wanted to be with his love again. If you go by the Bram Stokers Dracula story...the one with Anthony Hopkins..you know the movie.

In the story, Bella does love Edward for his personality..in fact if you say she only loves him for the "gifts" he gives her it is ludicrous since she flat out refuses every "gift" he gives her.

As for the whole ripped abs; every girl loves the thought of a beautiful male figure loving them. In today's media skinny is the new "in". Females are not the only ones who like to see ripped male figures. Men have obsessions with skinny large breasted women.

Back to your song..you don't get it...what they are saying is that if a guy wants to be with a girl then he must be accepting of her friends; not giving them presents. It's like any relationship. if you want to be with someone, you have to be able to put up with their friends and family.

Men have their fantasies, what is wrong with girls having their own.

[Showsni]

Well, they've definitely lowered their standards by "Say You'll Be There;"

I'm (I'm) giving you everything (I give you everything)
all that joy can bring
this I swear (yes I swear)
and (and) all that I want from you (all I want from you)
is a promise(is a promise) you
will be there
Yeah, I want you
Any fool can see they're falling,
gotta make you understand
I'll give you everything
on this I swear
Just promise you'll always be there

Did this come out after Wannabe? The lines "Last time that we had this conversation I decided we should be friends" make it seem like a continuation a little...

[Raien]

Why the heck are you comparing it to a crappy song? Just because he is a "vampire" doesn't mean that he doesn't have a personality..you are arguing about a character in a book. He doesn't have a "personality" because he isn't real. You call it crap..millions of others call it art. Most of the time people don't like it because of the way he "sparkles". So what? It is a depiction of a made up character. You can say the same thing about the werewolves in Underworld. The werewolf myth in general are that they are uncontrollable beasts that take wolf form in the light of a full moon. The concept that they can change at will goes against everything the original character was created for...as a monster.

As for personality, if you are saying he has no personality because he is a vampire..Dracula had a personality. His character was a sad an depressing character who only wanted to be with his love again. If you go by the Bram Stokers Dracula story...the one with Anthony Hopkins..you know the movie.

Nothing that I said in my post has anything to do with Twilight being a vampire story. The vampire bit is completely irrelevant to most people's complaints about the book (at least the people who don't care about vampires anyway).

In the story, Bella does love Edward for his personality..in fact if you say she only loves him for the "gifts" he gives her it is ludicrous since she flat out refuses every "gift" he gives her.

And yet she goes on and on about his beautiful face and body. How often do they talk about Edward's character? His interests, his passions, his view of life, etc? It's all very well saying that Bella's supposed "love" isn't materialistic, but it's still superficial.

As for the whole ripped abs; every girl loves the thought of a beautiful male figure loving them. In today's media skinny is the new "in". Females are not the only ones who like to see ripped male figures. Men have obsessions with skinny large breasted women.

Right, but you don't see men calling it "art". We know perfectly well how unrealistic and degrading it is, and we're happy to take all the criticism from women about it. That's why women jumping in to defend their own fantasies from criticism as if it had some higher meaning becomes a perfect example of irony. The fact that women say it's not about sex only makes everyone laugh louder.

Back to your song..you don't get it...what they are saying is that if a guy wants to be with a girl then he must be accepting of her friends; not giving them presents. It's like any relationship. if you want to be with someone, you have to be able to put up with their friends and family.

Lol no. The Spice Girls were aimed squarely at stereotypical young teenage girls, whose marketed interests revolved around material objects, a general idea of "having fun" and the usual supposed rebellion against parents. Since girls establish their friends first, those friends become a comfort zone from which to start the more unfamiliar dating scene. With the usual sexist stereotype established that boys are cheating scum by nature, the comfort zone of girl friends are thus reconfirmed. Hence, the Spice Girls say friends are more important than boys.

As for whether the song specifies the boy giving gifts or not, it's still the same message. At no point is the girl suggested to accept his friends or give anything to him. It's a one-way relationship, just how young girls love it. I mean, what sacrifices did Bella have to make in order to win Edward's heart?

Edited by Raien, 03 December 2009 - 09:21 PM.

[Emiko]

I mean, what sacrifices did Bella have to make in order to win Edward's heart?

Ok you have a point about Bella..I read all four books...and she doesn't mention much about his interests....she does complain that she isn't good enough for him.

As for what she gave up, she gave up her humanity and her friends to be with him. Her mother, her father...

granted she ended up having a child with him..but that is another story in itself...and if people question how a vampire can have a child with a human..go talk to Marv Wolfman about Blade. He opened the doors to the human/vampire relationships.

My point to this whole shenanigan is that girls are allowed to have their fantasies...it might be a emo sparkly vampire or a tanned young Native American shape shifting wolf...the same as men have their fantasies. The Twilight series is a phase, like Harry Potter....it is going to pass...making fun of it and degrading a woman (The authors) art (because words are art) is silly. Everyone has their own opinion on what they view as "pretty" art, just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it is stupid.

[Nevermind]

To be fair though, we at least recognise them as just fantasies and mindporn, rather than over-hyped novels and art


Put a decent story in there that hasn't been seemingly built around the sole purpose of having an empty shell of a human character chased after by two good looking superhuman men and I'd consider it textual art like any other good story.

[Twinrova]

Yes, defend Twilight all you want, but please for the love of god do not call it art. Just because it (unfortunately) got published does not mean it is automatically art.

[Emiko]

Yes, defend Twilight all you want, but please for the love of god do not call it art. Just because it (unfortunately) got published does not mean it is automatically art.

Rova, I love you...but any type of literary work..is in fact art...even the ugliest drawings/paintings/stupidest stories is in fact art. Things do not have to be "beautiful" to be art. I don't like the Dragon Ball art style..but it is still art.. Even porn can be considered art...and if that can pass as art..then well..you know

[Nevermind]

It is at these points when there needs to be drawn a line as to what is art and what is labeled as art.

[Green Goblin]

There's a two-fold attack on Twilight, but both have their own motivation.

The first is the one that gets most of the attention. They hate sparkly vampires. They hate the armies of preteen girls and women stuck in arrested development essentially creaming themselves the instant sharkboy takes off his goddamn shirt. And the reason they hate these things is because it's annoying. Don't try to deny that it isn't, but in that same vein, one could argue that they're just as annoying as any other niche fanbase (except for the screaming. They've cornered the fucking market on screaming). But of course what separates the Twihards from the HP and Star Wars fans is what the other half of the attack is all about.

The key difference between Harry Potter/Star Wars/Other Nerdcore things and Twilight is that Harry Potter/Star Wars/etc. is actually GOOD. And Twilight isn't. Let's start with the characters (who all have little to none, btw). Bella's a depressed whiny bitch who seems content in giving up all her individuality for a completely one-sided relationship to a guy she only just met. Edward is a seemingly wounded pretty-boy rebel who has no real passions or interests (outside of lightning storm baseball, apparently) and for some reason seems to love torturing himself by holding close something that he's supposedly trying to get away from. Jacob is the only character of substance and positive nature, yet he pines after this completely batshit girl who wants the 1-dimensional fop. And they don't change. There's virtually no character development in any of the books. They all stay within that same comfort zone, flaws and all, and the story REWARDS THEM FOR IT.

In Harry Potter, characters change. Harry changes from humble boy, to moody teen, to confident courageous man. Hermione changes from rigid bookworm to slightly less rigid bookworm to allowing Luna Lovegood go on about non-existant creatures without feeling the need to butt in. Ron goes from dumbshit, to depressed second-banana to true friend and partner. There are characters whose motivations are hidden for years at a time, subplots that playout for months and some throughout the entire span of the series. And all of this, factored in to the fact that the series caters to EVERYONE, young and old, male and female.

Kawaii: I've read the first book (refused to pay money for it. DLed a PDF). The thing reads like a bad fanfiction by a completely submissive borderline-masochistic author. Bad books turned into worse films, and that's not just my say. That's the majority of critics out their as well.

Hell, I'm just trying to think of what would be the male equivalent to this, and the only thing that comes to mind is porn. But at least we ADMIT porn is shallow gratification...

Edited by Green Goblin, 04 December 2009 - 05:20 AM.

[CID Farwin]

Never mind.

Edited by CID Farwin, 04 December 2009 - 10:39 PM.

[Emiko]

Hell, I'm just trying to think of what would be the male equivalent to this, and the only thing that comes to mind is porn. But at least we ADMIT porn is shallow gratification...

I like porn though. lol

My view is that I don't care is people "don't like it" It just gets so old to see all these posts about how stupid it is.. and how much people hate it...seriously...

it is a phase...like anything else..in a couple years it will blow over...

[JRPomazon]

There's a two-fold attack on Twilight, but both have their own motivation.

The first is the one that gets most of the attention. They hate sparkly vampires. They hate the armies of preteen girls and women stuck in arrested development essentially creaming themselves the instant sharkboy takes off his goddamn shirt. And the reason they hate these things is because it's annoying. Don't try to deny that it isn't, but in that same vein, one could argue that they're just as annoying as any other niche fanbase (except for the screaming. They've cornered the fucking market on screaming). But of course what separates the Twihards from the HP and Star Wars fans is what the other half of the attack is all about.

The key difference between Harry Potter/Star Wars/Other Nerdcore things and Twilight is that Harry Potter/Star Wars/etc. is actually GOOD. And Twilight isn't. Let's start with the characters (who all have little to none, btw). Bella's a depressed whiny bitch who seems content in giving up all her individuality for a completely one-sided relationship to a guy she only just met. Edward is a seemingly wounded pretty-boy rebel who has no real passions or interests (outside of lightning storm baseball, apparently) and for some reason seems to love torturing himself by holding close something that he's supposedly trying to get away from. Jacob is the only character of substance and positive nature, yet he pines after this completely batshit girl who wants the 1-dimensional fop. And they don't change. There's virtually no character development in any of the books. They all stay within that same comfort zone, flaws and all, and the story REWARDS THEM FOR IT.

In Harry Potter, characters change. Harry changes from humble boy, to moody teen, to confident courageous man. Hermione changes from rigid bookworm to slightly less rigid bookworm to allowing Luna Lovegood go on about non-existant creatures without feeling the need to butt in. Ron goes from dumbshit, to depressed second-banana to true friend and partner. There are characters whose motivations are hidden for years at a time, subplots that playout for months and some throughout the entire span of the series. And all of this, factored in to the fact that the series caters to EVERYONE, young and old, male and female.

Kawaii: I've read the first book (refused to pay money for it. DLed a PDF). The thing reads like a bad fanfiction by a completely submissive borderline-masochistic author (Though, to be fair, Meyers IS a conservative Mormon, so that doesn't really surprise me). Bad books turned into worse films, and that's not just my say. That's the majority of critics out their as well.

Hell, I'm just trying to think of what would be the male equivalent to this, and the only thing that comes to mind is porn. But at least we ADMIT porn is shallow gratification...

And Goblin wins the thread.

I'm not a fan of Twilight franchise, however I can understand why some people might consider this art. For as much praise it receives, there is criticism as well (which is nice). I don't have any strong feelings about the book, it can exist without having to interfere with my life but what I can't stand is the Vampire craze that has overwhelmed the media. Goth kids know how the be hard core sometimes and let's face it, there is an emo kid in all of us. However, someone puts on make-up and pretends to be a vampire (even to the point of drinking blood), then I begin to worry. Vamp kids are the result of the Twilight franchise and that alone is enough to make me want to gag.

Edited by JRPomazon, 03 December 2009 - 11:52 PM.

[Green Goblin]

Honestly, vamp kids tend to stay away from public and remain relatively quiet. I'd take them over screaming obsessive 'tweeners anyday.

And Vamps existed long before Stephanie Meyer got to writing, with the likes of Anita Blake. Vamps don't bug me, mainly because real vamps from what I've gathered tend to hate Twihards too.

Edited by Green Goblin, 03 December 2009 - 11:58 PM.

[JRPomazon]

Honestly, vamp kids tend to stay away from public and remain relatively quiet. I'd take them over screaming obsessive 'tweeners anyday.

Point taken. Tweeners are a plague. Despite the fact that they eventually grow out of it to some extent, new ones pop up like zits on a greasy face.

[wisp]

Guys, I am seriously not pleased with the direction this thread is going in. It's starting to sound more like one of contro's mudslinging parties than a civil discussion about a book/movie franchise. Some of you have bordered on personal insults against each other, and honestly GG... the comment about Mormons and masochism was entirely inappropriate.

The fact is, whether or not the series is good, for any reason... is largely a matter of opinion. And I am sick of seeing people in here implying that anyone who likes the series has something fundamentally wrong with them.

Play nice or don't say anything at all.

[Nevermind]

I'm sorry but I just haven't been seeing anyone here being ostracised or personally attacked for liking the movie. There's mudslinging at the film itself but that's the gist of any negative critique or movie review, though I admit the Mormon comment could have been left out.

Whether a series is good or not is largely personal opinion but it is also largely based on paradigms to which these authors try and adhere for the most part. It's because of these paradigms that the relevance of the subject to the criteria can be compared and reviewed. The only exception is when a story creates its own divergent paradigm, which the case in point - Twilight - does not. It falls neatly into preset criteria for the numerous genres through which it tries to present itself and does not stumble from any of these paths.

I'm not undermining you here, wisp but thanks to such things as paradigms, these people have a reason to call it boring, stale, or uneventful. In the world of today, those things in a film or novel just lead the reviewers and readers alike to "piece of crap". Was this particular series trying to actively pursue a personal layout, then judgements would have to be put down to individual opinions but it isn't so they don't have to be.

[wisp]

Quite as broad of an assumption as my own assumption of The Only Ones Who Like Twilight are teenagers who have never been in a true relationship or women with something lacking in their marriage.

This in particular, along with the comment about Mormons, is something that I feel is toeing the line between acceptable and inappropriate. Hence why I said, "bordering on personal insults" rather than, "You all are totally out of line and I am closing the thread." For some ungodly reason, this franchise always seems to make enemies out of friends wherever it is brought up, and I am not okay with this thread taking any steps in that direction. People may be slinging the mud mostly at Twilight itself, but that doesn't mean that we don't need to be mindful of where we may indirectly be insulting each other... and I would rather speak up now, before it turns into a big problem, than let these comments slide and let that potentially encourage more of the same.

I don't care if people think the series is crappy; in fact, I recognize that it's just a bunch of horrible purple prose even though I still admit that I did enjoy reading the books. I mean... people don't read, for example, Harlequin romance novels for their literary value; there is some other kind of enjoyment that is coming from those. But we aren't seeing people sitting here saying that everyone who likes those books must be a vapid teenager or have something missing from her romantic partnership.

All I'm saying is that I don't want to see any more of those types of comments that are indirectly insulting to people, whether they be fans of the books, or whether they be members of the same religion as the author. It's not appropriate.

[Green Goblin]

Mormon zinger edited out. Apologies.

[wisp]

Thanks, GG.

Also, this is relevant:

[Raien]

I've just had an interesting thought that's never come to me before. Men complain about the popularity of Twilight and the Spice Girls as cheap exploitations of women's fantasies, but is that popularity only due to a general lack of this exploitation in the media?

Think about it, beautiful women that appeal to the "male gaze" appear in every visual medium like films, television (news anchors often have one old man and one young beautiful woman), comic books (especially comic books), etc. It's hard for any single product to become popular on the basis of a beautiful woman because practically everyone's doing it! But if there's a market for female fantasies that almost no one is pandering to, is it any surprise that the odd product that does pander to women sells by the millions?

It sounds to me like exploiting female fantasies would not only make a fantastic business opportunity, but end the rage over whether Twilight should be celebrated as a classic piece of literature.

Edited by Raien, 04 December 2009 - 10:47 AM.

[wisp]

I fully support the idea of having more media that cater to women's fantasies, whether it solves the Twilight problem or not.

Women are socially expected to be somewhat asexual (at least as compared to men), I suppose... so I guess the people in charge of the entertainment industry assume that we don't need to see films and such that exploit attractive men.

Down with this inequality, I say! Give me more male exploitation! XP

[Emiko]

Thanks, GG.

Also, this is relevant:

LMAO!!!!

THAT IS FREAKIN HILAROUS!!!

XD

Raien, we never said it should be a classic....its my opinion that I like it..and your opinion that it sucks...so be it....just opinions...nothing to argue about....

but..that picture..I am going to have to send it to my sister cause she absolutely LOVES lil Eddie...

[JRPomazon]

When am I going to be able to go to a grocery store and not see Edward Cullen's face?

[Raien]

oh jesus...

[Emiko]

oh jesus...

That's going a bit to far O_O

I would rather have Johnny Depp there.. lol

[Twinrova]

oh jesus...

....

I have no words. NO. WORDS.

[Masamune]

Actually that might be the best thing ever. The new chastity belt. Any guy looking for a good time would almost be guaranteed to lose their drive after seeing that.

[Emiko]

Actually that might be the best thing ever. The new chastity belt. Any guy looking for a good time would almost be guaranteed to lose their drive after seeing that.

lol..I know if I was a guy...I wouldn't want to see another guys face plastered over a girl's ...area..

[CID Farwin]

I'm sorry but I just haven't been seeing anyone here being ostracised or personally attacked for liking the movie. There's mudslinging at the film itself but that's the gist of any negative critique or movie review,

Something I've found is that when mud is slung at something, it tends to splash on its fans.

I've just had an interesting thought that's never come to me before. Men complain about the popularity of Twilight and the Spice Girls as cheap exploitations of women's fantasies, but is that popularity only due to a general lack of this exploitation in the media?

Think about it, beautiful women that appeal to the "male gaze" appear in every visual medium like films, television (news anchors often have one old man and one young beautiful woman), comic books (especially comic books), etc. It's hard for any single product to become popular on the basis of a beautiful woman because practically everyone's doing it! But if there's a market for female fantasies that almost no one is pandering to, is it any surprise that the odd product that does pander to women sells by the millions?

It sounds to me like exploiting female fantasies would not only make a fantastic business opportunity, but end the rage over whether Twilight should be celebrated as a classic piece of literature.

The Twilight franchise can be summed up thus: a lower quality product which takes advantage of an unforeseen market (Teenage girls being part of the void left behind by Harry Potter), having different values from it's competitors(focus on romance and rather than plot or characterization.) It's more accessible than other books of its type.

thanks to such things as paradigms, these people have a reason to call it boring, stale, or uneventful. In the world of today, those things in a film or novel just lead the reviewers and readers alike to "piece of crap".

Laz's comment here perfectly illustrates how Twilight's 'values' are different than a normal book.

This, my friend, is disruption at work, which may explain some of the hate towards Twilight.