139 replies to this topic

[Showsni]

Ocarina implies Hyrule is created, and then the Triforce goes into the Sacred Realm, and stays there until Ganondorf touches it. There is no room for a King to hold the completed Triforce.

No it doesn't. If anything, OoT implies the opposite; that the triforce has left the SR before. The SR in OoT has a compicated lock, with the Master Sword, three gems and an ocarina holdin it shut; this shows quite clearly that at some point people have tried to seal the SR to protect the triforce. This is quite different to the IW and ALttP, where the SR has no man made barriers but pretty much just has the natural portals.

In any case, ALttP by itself invalidates the SZ story. Sleeping Zelda must be the first Zelda and the ToC is hidden at this time; but ALttP is a prequel with a princess Zelda and the ToC, contradiction.

Anyway, this thread went way off topic. A discussion of AoL's town names leading to whether Salona are Subrosians and where the SZ story comes? You should really make new threads for new topics.

[jacensolo06]

1. She IS supposed to be the first Princess Zelda.

She was originally meant to be, but, as you've said, later games makes this impossible. I think making her the first Zelda of the naming tradition is the simplest method of resolving this.

And now I see Showsni's post about staying on topic, oh well.

Edited by jacensolo06, 05 December 2008 - 01:02 PM.

[Impossible]

It never says she was the FIRST Zelda, just that after her tragedy all princesses HAD to bear her name.

Please read the japanese translations first. It specifically states that the Zelda is the "First Generation" Zelda. Which if you cannot tell right now, means she is the first.

http://en.wikipedia....venture_of_Link

Release date(s) NES/FDS version
JP January 14, 1987

OBVIOUSLY nothing can change in 21 years and 12 new games. It's not possible. ALttP was always before LoZ, and in that game, Link obtains the full Triforce. Why the hell would they leave the sleeping Zelda to sleep after that? She had to have been put to sleep AFTER the Triforce was split for the last time before LoZ. Which was AoL's backstory, which is after ALttP.

I never said it was the name of their race. We don't even know that they ARE a specific race, so there's not much for the whole "Subrosian" idea however you want to put it. There's no connection to Zelda in any case.

If they are subrosians then it has a lot of connection to Zelda.

FFS, it's the mirror garbage all over again. It's a self-perpetuating theory that's only relevant if it's already assumed to be true. Only this time, IT'S NOT EVEN IN A ZELDA GAME, and is supported by no real evidence. Nothing suggests that they're Subrosians, nor would it exactly make any sense.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Link and Zelda have been told clearly that their new home will not be called Hyrule.

As a matter of correction, Daphnes says this in response to Tetra's request for him to come with them, meaning that it must first be interpreted in this context. This means that Daphnes is saying foremost that he will not go with them because any new land they find will not be Hyrule (because Hyrule, to him, is the land that was sealed away). To say that Daphnes is prohibiting them from constructing a new Hyrule imposes the theory on the interpretation.

It's simple; ALttP explains the origins of Hyrule, the Triforce and of Ganon.

ALttP's backstory does, and then everything from its backstory was adopted into another game, namely OoT. ALttP has a theme of sort of bringing antiquity full-circle, which doesn't necessarily suggest that it's before (or after) anything else. Its history clearly goes back further than LoZ's, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the here and the now of the game events is before. Rather like how TP explored events that happened prior to OoT but came after.

That's not to say that, at the time of its release, this was a bad way of looking at it. Just that it never had to be the ONLY way of looking at it.

Miyamoto most certainly did not retcon ALttP's timeline placement because he admits to having no interest or responsibility for the direction of the game storylines.

Miyamoto: "I'm afraid that people think that I ignore story lines or that I don't feel that the story has any value. My first priority is whether [...] a player is actively involved in the game. [...] Of course, the scenario, characters and graphics are all important, but it?s this active attitude that is the most important element."

Miyamoto says you're wrong.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 06 December 2008 - 11:33 AM.

[Raien]

As a matter of correction, Daphnes says this in response to Tetra's request for him to come with them, meaning that it must first be interpreted in this context. This means that Daphnes is saying foremost that he will not go with them because any new land they find will not be Hyrule (because Hyrule, to him, is the land that was sealed away). To say that Daphnes is prohibiting them from constructing a new Hyrule imposes the theory on the interpretation.

Hyrule is not defined by Daphnes, it is defined by the goddesses as a holy land. A new land that Link and Zelda will not become a holy land, and thus it cannot become Hyrule. The death of the holy land is symbolised by the departure of the Triforce to heaven and the loss of the title.

Miyamoto: "I'm afraid that people think that I ignore story lines or that I don't feel that the story has any value. My first priority is whether [...] a player is actively involved in the game. [...] Of course, the scenario, characters and graphics are all important, but it’s this active attitude that is the most important element."

Miyamoto says you're wrong.

This is so fucking typical. When I said "game storylines", you fucking knew I meant the details that everyone keeps picking at to create supposed timeline connections. After all the crap I've had to go through differentiating the meaning of individual game storylines from the timeline, you cannot claim to be ignorant of the point I was making.

Edited by Raian, 06 December 2008 - 01:09 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Hyrule need not be limited to the land of the gods were the Triforce was once hidden, as ALttP's manual seems to suggest that "Hyrule" is where the Hylians live, and AoL shows that "Hyrule" refers to territories outside the holy land regardless. It's not shown to be a title given to a holy land, it comes from the root word for Hylians.

This is so fucking typical. When I said "game storylines", you fucking knew I meant the details that everyone keeps picking at to create supposed timeline connections.

If that's what you meant, you shouldn't have said "direction of the game storylines" which has completely different connotations.

[MikePetersSucks]

Hyrule need not be limited to the land of the gods were the Triforce was once hidden, as ALttP's manual seems to suggest that "Hyrule" is where the Hylians live, and AoL shows that "Hyrule" refers to territories outside the holy land regardless. It's not shown to be a title given to a holy land, it comes from the root word for Hylians.

Yea, except no. LTTP's manual suggests no such thing, and AOL makes no such claim (Hyrule was originally one, so they're both derivative of the holy land). And either way, there's the issue of the Sacred Realm being a mirror of Hyrule. I doubt the Sacred Realm floats around, mirroring wherever Hylians choose to live (especially since Hylians live all over the damn place as the dominant species, and they don't get to call THEIR homelands Hyrule).

[Lexxi Aileron]

I thought the Dark World mirrored Hyrule as a result of Ganon's wish?

Also: "Hyrule, where many Hylian relics have been left, is an area very much tied to myth."
and
"The Hylians (also the root word for the word Hyrule) were the people closest to the gods."

The title of Hyrule comes from the Hylians who lived there.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 06 December 2008 - 04:10 PM.

[Raien]

Hyrule need not be limited to the land of the gods were the Triforce was once hidden, as ALttP's manual seems to suggest that "Hyrule" is where the Hylians live, and AoL shows that "Hyrule" refers to territories outside the holy land regardless. It's not shown to be a title given to a holy land, it comes from the root word for Hylians.

Also: "Hyrule, where many Hylian relics have been left, is an area very much tied to myth."
and
"The Hylians (also the root word for the word Hyrule) were the people closest to the gods."

Israel was the holy land named after the Israelites, but the land does not change depending on where the Israelites decide to live. Israel was chosen as the holy land by God, and it remains steadfast in that geographical location. Hyrule is likewise tied to one geographical location, which is cemented with the Triforce and the elemental magics. Even if the kingdom of Hyrule stretches to other lands, the holy land of Hyrule remains the same. After all, TP distinguishes "Hyrule proper" from the outer reaches of the kingdom, like Ordon Village. AoL fits perfectly within this definition.

Edited by Raian, 07 December 2008 - 09:36 AM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

I'm not claiming that any new Hyrule territory will be holy land, though (ALttP only hearkens back to a former age and no other 2D game even suggests the idea), so I don't see what the problem is.

[Raien]

I'm not claiming that any new Hyrule territory will be holy land, though (ALttP only hearkens back to a former age and no other 2D game even suggests the idea), so I don't see what the problem is.

The problem is that hearkening back to a holy age is fundamentally reliant on continuing visible connections with divinity. The holy lands, holy people and divine relics of faiths exist to show people a time when their ancestors conversed with the god/s. In TWW, Daphnes destroyed the divine connections in Hyrule, and in doing so, essentially destroyed the islanders' ties to their holy past. Hyrule essentially becomes a Garden of Eden; a place of divine prosperity that cannot be re-created anywhere on Earth. And since Eden cannot be re-created, people simply don't try. It would only come across as a cheap imitation.

Edited by Raian, 07 December 2008 - 05:49 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I thought the Dark World mirrored Hyrule as a result of Ganon's wish?

It was always a parallel plane to Hyrule, though it's form was altered by Ganon's wish, Link's wish seems to imply that the natural state of the Sacred Realm is a paradise, which probably makes sense, given TP's implication that the Sacred Realm was originally part of it.

[Lexxi Aileron]

The problem is that hearkening back to a holy age is fundamentally reliant on continuing visible connections with divinity.

Clearly the people of the great sea do have connections with gods; are you saying that this ended with the finale of TWW, and if so, where is your evidence (and how do you explain PH which implies quite the opposite)?

The holy lands, holy people and divine relics of faiths exist to show people a time when their ancestors conversed with the god/s. In TWW, Daphnes destroyed the divine connections in Hyrule, and in doing so, essentially destroyed the islanders' ties to their holy past. Hyrule essentially becomes a Garden of Eden; a place of divine prosperity that cannot be re-created anywhere on Earth.

I agree with you 100% in everything you have said here, to varying interpretation, aside from the bolded which I think is preposterous as you cannot take away someone's history.

And since Eden cannot be re-created, people simply don't try. It would only come across as a cheap imitation.

The problem being that this is fairly inconsistent with actual human behavior.

It was always a parallel plane to Hyrule

I don't find that to really be the case, IMO, especially not taking OoT to mind.

[Impossible]

The title of Hyrule comes from the Hylians who lived there.

So why would a land without Hylians be named Hyrule? Especially given the King's assertions that Hyrule was gone forever?

[Raien]

Clearly the people of the great sea do have connections with gods; are you saying that this ended with the finale of TWW, and if so, where is your evidence (and how do you explain PH which implies quite the opposite)?

The islanders do have connections to the gods, but in a completely different context to the connections found in Hyrule. The Jewish people, the descendants of Israelites, have established synagogues around the world through which they can converse with God. But synagogues do not replace Israel, the Jewish holy land; anything created by God cannot be re-created by humankind. And the same goes with divine relics and people from all faiths; the Bible cannot be rewritten because it is the word of God (and no, "translation" is not the same thing as "rewriting"). The Dalai Llama cannot simply be chosen because his holy spirit can only be reborn in someone who was born at the moment the previous Dalai Llama died.

The guardian deities of old Hyrule still live among the islands. The people still remember the gods and worship them. But there is no holy land for the islanders to re-claim, and thus there is no land that the people can call Hyrule.

Edited by Raian, 08 December 2008 - 08:22 AM.

[Raien]

Sorry for double-posting, but I have an update:

A quote in ALttP states that the Hylians once inhabited the same land that their descendants do:

Long ago a prosperous people, known as the Hylians, inhabited this land... Legends tell of treasures with mystical powers that remain from the Hylian age... The Master Sword, a mighty blade forged to thwart those with evil hearts, is one...

This cannot be possible if the land of Hyrule was destroyed, as it was done in TWW.

[Impossible]

Any suggestion that ALttP happens in a different Hyrule to its backstory is as ridiculous as the suggestion that ALttP has a different Ganon to its backstory.

Edit: I was confused for a second because that quote was different to both the US and Zelda Legends translations of that line, then I realised it was from the GBA version. Good choice, as it's pretty much always accurate anyway. Someone should do a translation comparison for that one... We do already have the translation, after all.

Edited by Impossible, 08 December 2008 - 08:51 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

A quote in ALttP states that the Hylians once inhabited the same land that their descendants do

Long ago a prosperous people, known as the Hylians, inhabited this land... Legends tell of treasures with mystical powers that remain from the Hylian age... The Master Sword, a mighty blade forged to thwart those with evil hearts, is one...

This cannot be possible if the land of Hyrule was destroyed, as it was done in TWW.

The ALttP manual says that the Hylian descendants "rooted themselves in all parts of the world," so this line could of course refer to whatever land is presently inhabited in ALttP, regardless of whether or not it was the Hyrule destroyed by Daphnes.

But there is no holy land for the islanders to re-claim, and thus there is no land that the people can call Hyrule.

I don't ascribe to your concept that Hyrule is and only can be the holy land. As I already stated, and as the manual supports, Hyrule's name comes from the Hylians.

You mentioned Israel as Judaism's holy land and said that no other place could be the holy land. Christianity makes the claim that with the coming of Christ, with the coming of the Messiah, the entire world has become the new Israel--all nations are God's holy people. Daphnes seems to be burying the holy land of Hyrule but consequently wishes for blessings to shine on the future of the entire world. Can this not be understood in the same type of context?

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 09 December 2008 - 02:08 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

The ALttP manual says that the Hylian descendants "rooted themselves in all parts of the world," so this line could of course refer to whatever land is presently inhabited in ALttP, regardless of whether or not it was the Hyrule destroyed by Daphnes.

Way to completely contradict the intent of the passage. I swear, you have no concept of "Spirit of the Word", do you?

[Lexxi Aileron]

I would say that the Hylian descendants spreading to all parts of the world as described in ALttP's manual is shown with the spreading out of people from Hyrule after the flood. You clearly disagree, but that doesn't make the idea any less valid.

[Raien]

The ALttP manual says that the Hylian descendants "rooted themselves in all parts of the world," so this line could of course refer to whatever land is presently inhabited in ALttP, regardless of whether or not it was the Hyrule destroyed by Daphnes.

What do the movements of the Hylian's descendants have to do with the Hylians themselves? Unless you can show that the Hylians inhabited other lands after TWW, then you have no point.

I don't ascribe to your concept that Hyrule is and only can be the holy land. As I already stated, and as the manual supports, Hyrule's name comes from the Hylians.

Israel was named after the Israelites, but it is still a holy land tied to one location. There is nothing here that supports your argument.

You mentioned Israel as Judaism's holy land and said that no other place could be the holy land. Christianity makes the claim that with the coming of Christ, with the coming of the Messiah, the entire world has become the new Israel--all nations are God's holy people. Daphnes seems to be burying the holy land of Hyrule but consequently wishes for blessings to shine on the future of the entire world. Can this not be understood in the same type of context?

1) I think you misunderstand my application of the Israel example. I am not saying Nintendo were working with Israel as a basis, but that the Israel example is follows a more general understanding as to what a "holy land" represents in myth; a land blessed by God/s. Mount Olympus as the "holy land" of the Ancient Greek religion is another good example. And most importantly, the name of the holy land does not affect its' status.

2) Just like your previous argument that the mission of Christianity was to re-create the Garden of Eden, I have never heard of this argument anywhere before. And to the contrary, Wikipedia says that Israel is a "holy land" to the Christian faith through the birth of Jesus Christ, which I think is an idea more prominently recognised than the idea you have just presented. I seriously doubt that Nintendo will recognise a concept that is not prominent in Christian mythology, regardless of whether it is true.

Edited by Raian, 09 December 2008 - 07:00 AM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

What do the movements of the Hylian's descendants have to do with the Hylians themselves? Unless you can show that the Hylians inhabited other lands after TWW, then you have no point.

Many characters in the Ocean King's sea, particularly certain members of the Cobble, have long Hylian ears. As I've already discussed with you, so do many people in the Hyrulean Great Sea.

There, happy?

1) I think you misunderstand my application of the Israel example. I am not saying Nintendo were working with Israel as a basis, but that the Israel example is follows a more general understanding as to what a "holy land" represents in myth; a land blessed by God/s. Mount Olympus as the "holy land" of the Ancient Greek religion is another good example. And most importantly, the name of the holy land does not affect its' status.

2) Just like your previous argument that the mission of Christianity was to re-create the Garden of Eden, I have never heard of this argument anywhere before. And to the contrary, Wikipedia says that Israel is a "holy land" to the Christian faith through the birth of Jesus Christ, which I think is an idea more prominently recognised than the idea you have just presented. I seriously doubt that Nintendo will recognise a concept that is not prominent in Christian mythology, regardless of whether it is true.

It is clear from the reality of the Christian mission that when scripture says that Christ saved Israel it refers to the entire people of God, who come from every nation, not only the physical nation of Israel. A journalist put it best: "To be Christian means to abandon one's gentile, that is, tribal, character and become part of another nation, a new Israel." This is central to Christian theology, and in fact a very prominent idea; where the Jews were God's holy people and were very secluded within their ethnicity, Christianity extended the family/kingdom/nation of God to all men. All men became part of the new Israel.

A new Hyrule would also involve the chosen of the gods, but in another sense. TWW says that the gods chose people who would built a new country and they fled to the mountaintops. These "chosen ones" would be the chosen of the next Hyrule. In that sense, Hyrule would still in a sense be the land of those chosen by the gods. It would not necessarily be holy in the sense that it would not be the land where the goddesses left the Triforce at the creation of the world, but if the land were to be blessed by the Triforce (either as a result of Daphnes's wish or some future wish), that would suffice as well, would it not?

This is not central to my theory, so I don't really place too much emphasis on it, but it seems clear that, in AoL for instance, when Link reunites the Triforce he uses it to restore Hyrule to some lost glory. The AoL scroll and crystals were supposedly set aside until the next time that a "great king" would come (that Link implied to be Link). Since LoZ/AoL's world is a "world of chaos," I would say that it is in a state without the Triforce's blessing, and that AoL Link, by accepting the quest to reunite the Triforce for his generation, becomes the "light of hope" that dispels the chaos and brings order. I think that this chaos fits perfectly with the world we see in TWW, in which the world is made up of scattered peoples on scattered islands and pirates roam the seas, and that AoL Link by becoming the "light of hope" fulfills Daphnes's wish for hope for the people.

It's an imaginative theory, and puts completely different meanings of TWW's ending to use than what you have come to agree with, but I will not have someone tell me that it's not a viable interpretation. I'm working with a different understanding and placing the emphasis on Daphnes's primary wish for hope instead of Daphnes's secondary response to Tetra's invitation to come with them.

[Raien]

Many characters in the Ocean King's sea, particularly certain members of the Cobble, have long Hylian ears. As I've already discussed with you, so do many people in the Hyrulean Great Sea.

We have discussed this, and everyone except you came to the clear conclusion that not only did the far majority of the islanders have short round ears, but that it was necessary in order for the kidnapped girls to be distinguished by their long ears. Saying that there's a pattern of the kidnapped girls having long ears makes no sense in the context of everyone having long ears. But let's not debate this again; god knows it created enough headaches the first time.

It is clear from the reality of the Christian mission that when scripture says that Christ saved Israel it refers to the entire people of God, who come from every nation, not only the physical nation of Israel. A journalist put it best: "To be Christian means to abandon one's gentile, that is, tribal, character and become part of another nation, a new Israel." This is central to Christian theology, and in fact a very prominent idea; where the Jews were God's holy people and were very secluded within their ethnicity, Christianity extended the family/kingdom/nation of God to all men. All men became part of the new Israel.

So you're saying that all people in the Zelda universe, regardless of long ears, become Hylian? And that, according to this definition, all lands in the world become Hyrule? There's a problem I have with this; namely the lack of evidence. The reason I referred to Israel is because there were some clear visible parallels between the Jewish holy land and Hyrule, which I was also able to apply to other faiths (like the Mount Olympus example). Not only can you not apply this Christian theology to Hyrule, but you cannot apply it to any other mythological context to lend it a sense of universality in myth.

A new Hyrule would also involve the chosen of the gods, but in another sense. TWW says that the gods chose people who would built a new country and they fled to the mountaintops. These "chosen ones" would be the chosen of the next Hyrule. In that sense, Hyrule would still in a sense be the land of those chosen by the gods. It would not necessarily be holy in the sense that it would not be the land where the goddesses left the Triforce at the creation of the world, but if the land were to be blessed by the Triforce (either as a result of Daphnes's wish or some future wish), that would suffice as well, would it not?

Alright, let's establish some missing context here. The gods built a tower to test the worthiness of men, until one individual could establish the right to wield the Master Sword and slay Ganon. The King of Hyrule said that the people would one day revive the holy land of Hyrule (the Japanese translation places "Hyrule" in the context of the land that the goddesses sealed away), and he also said that these people were chosen to build a new country. I would consider it obvious within this context that the gods intended the holy land of Hyrule to be revived in order for the islanders to re-establish the kingdom there. As for the term, "build a new country", it can either refer to rebuilding Hyrule from the ground-up, or it can refer to the establishment of a new country until the old Hyrule can be awakened. It doesn't contradict the obvious intent that the Hyrulians were meant to rebuild the kingdom of Old Hyrule.

This is not central to my theory, so I don't really place too much emphasis on it, but it seems clear that, in AoL for instance, when Link reunites the Triforce he uses it to restore Hyrule to some lost glory. The AoL scroll and crystals were supposedly set aside until the next time that a "great king" would come (that Link implied to be Link). Since LoZ/AoL's world is a "world of chaos," I would say that it is in a state without the Triforce's blessing, and that AoL Link, by accepting the quest to reunite the Triforce for his generation, becomes the "light of hope" that dispels the chaos and brings order. I think that this chaos fits perfectly with the world we see in TWW, in which the world is made up of scattered peoples on scattered islands and pirates roam the seas, and that AoL Link by becoming the "light of hope" fulfills Daphnes's wish for hope for the people.

So let me get this straight; Daphnes is a good guy, and he brings a ray of hope to the world with his wish on the Triforce. Link is a good guy, and he brings a ray of hope to the world with his wish on the Triforce. You're saying that this theme of bringing hope to Hyrule thematically ties TWW and AoL, and thus connects them in the timeline? You don't think the simple act of destroying evil, an entity of chaos, brings hope to the world? That theme not only connects all the Zelda games ever made, but also the Lord of the Rings trilogy and other fantasy stories. Oh, and btw, the Japanese translation of Daphnes's speech doesn't refer to a "ray/light of hope". I hope you weren't reading too much into that...


PS: For simplicity's sake, I'm moving the debate from the "New Timeline" topic here:

I disagree. Daphnes destroyed Hyrule so that the new kingdom would be one of his descendants' making. TWW already implies that the kingdom survived via the people who the gods commanded to flee to the mountaintops and avoid destruction. "The gods knew that to seal the people away would grant Ganon's wish for the destruction of the land..."

The Japanese translation does not refer to the "destruction of the land"; never is it suggested that the holy land of Hyrule diminishes with the absence of the Hylians. What is said to diminish is the kingdom, which makes sense because a land without people cannot be called a kingdom. And with that said, I think it's quite obvious that the kingdom of Hyrule is a holy communion between the land and people. When the land was sealed, the people were chosen to awaken it, as the King of Hyrule said they were destined to do.

Edited by Raian, 10 December 2008 - 06:32 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

I just read the ending translation. I thought I had already and seen the "light of hope" line, but I was wrong. I admittedly hinged on Daphnes's similarities to the scroll writer and it seems the most important one--his wish lining up with the apparent wishes of the scroll writer--does not exist.

As of now I opt for "no timeline."

[Impossible]

...Er, Raian, I think you broke Lex.

[MikePetersSucks]

Holy shit.

[Raien]

I'm just shocked that Lex actually hinged his timeline on that one broad term, as if the three/four paragraphs of actual substance in that post wasn't really important. Oh wait... no, I'm not shocked.

Edited by Raian, 11 December 2008 - 09:40 AM.

[Impossible]

I'm getting a sense of deja vu from this. The crux of Lex's points is usually something so bizarre and seemingly insignificant we can only find it if we stumble upon it through sheer random chance, that's why this never happens. But I think there was one other time, I just can't recall what it was now. Still, not exactly shocking. I mean, the most perfectly formed argument with all the appropriate evidence on the most important aspects of this issue, taken completely in context and interpreted properly and realistically, would obviously never work. I've seen far better and more relevant arguments against him than this. (See the entire TWW section of my document.) But it's only natural that someone who uses evidence that is often irrelevant, twisted or taken out of context, and responds to posts in a way that is often irrelevant, twists what they said or takes them out of context, would admit a problem when forced to concede on something completely peripheral to the big problems.

Edited by Impossible, 11 December 2008 - 06:42 AM.

[Arturo]

People, please, now, stop.

[Impossible]

Fair enough.

Anyway, what are we doing now? The Dark World topic made me think that more poll topics might be a good way to stimulate something new, as we can both discuss an issue and see where we stand on it (I did something like this on GameFAQs, with the polls after the huge discussion topics). Not sure how many people are left around here, though. Or what the best thing to address is. Because I tried it with TMC, and people insist on being ridiculous there regardless of evidence, so I'm not sure there's any more room for progress. What about FS and FSA? Or Oracles just for fun. And there IS still that nagging IW thing.

We also need to completely compile and sort the translations, but who knows when that'll happen. Ideally we'd want translation tables a la ALttP for TP, TWW and FSA. Obviously incomplete, but it would be a good way to make sure we've got everything we want.