139 replies to this topic

[Lexxi Aileron]

Actually, I hinged on a number of points, starting from TWW's naming of Zelda being the only evidence of an actual decreed naming tradition (the name Zelda appears at intervals in the other games, but this was the one time it was seemingly a mandate), moving on to Daphnes being the only king shown to gain possession of the Triforce, then finally concluding from Daphnes's wish that he was indeed the scroll writer due to the fact that both his wish and the scroll end with the same wordage (rather like how Ganondorf quotes the Triforce from ALttP's original manual in TP) and seem to be directed toward very similar purposes. I never expected that this parallel wording would have been an insert by NoA, and the other points already suffered from other blows of a similar calibur (either a Japanese translation that weakened the evidence for the idea or certain revelations I've made about AST and other material I'd never seen before in the past several days).

I (along with many others) still don't see eye-to-eye with you on the so-called "big problems" and in fact see them as entirely the opposite: as necessary means to an end. The IW, for example: both ALttP Sound & Drama and AST, both released after ALttP and both referencing ALttP, suggest that Ganon obtained the Triforce in an event taking place in the very year of ALttP, and that's definitely not the Imprisoning War (which took place generations before ALttP). Material released after Sound & Drama and AST still stubbornly omits Ganon from the IW dialogue. Kind of hard to say that Nintendo is all that concerned about maintaining the Imprisoning War as ALttP's direct backstory given that the IW not being ALttP's direct backstory seems like a recurring theme.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 11 December 2008 - 10:58 AM.

[Impossible]

The IW, for example: both ALttP Sound & Drama and AST, both released after ALttP and both referencing ALttP, suggest that Ganon obtained the Triforce in an event taking place in the very year of ALttP

Whaaat? Why is it that there are such amazing, significant points that I somehow never hear of until you choose random moments to obliquely reference them? Is it because you're clearly hiding something here, as always? Because ALttP also STATES, as a fact, that Ganon obtained the Triforce when he, you know, touched it. In the Imprisoning War. S&D wouldn't be considered canon by anyone, but I just have no idea what this AST reference is meant to be.

Shocked to see you acknowledge that some of your points hinged on semantics that were shattered by the simple rewording of a translation, though.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Nintendo of America's translations often make reference to something that's not there, don't we all know that? This would seem to have been one such case, at least that's what it appeared, tracing the other similarities to AoL. The small references to AoL in PH seemed to support it, but now I really don't see enough evidence to say that elements from AoL's backstory were co-opted for TWW (like the IW being co-opted for OoT). You guys seem to have this idea that I'm totally inflexible and that I refuse to accept new information; I don't know where that's coming from. XD

As for AST, a recap of ALttP says that Ganon took the Triforce "six years ago," much different than him taking it the "generations/centuries ago" when the IW happened.

"The legendary kingdom of Hyrule.
6 years ago, in this once-peaceful country,
the Prince of Thieves Ganondorf took the Triforce,
became the demon king Ganon, and was attempting to conquer the land.
The priest Agahnim, possessed by Ganon,
tried to sacrifice the descendants of the seven sages one by one
and break the seal.
Zelda, princess of Hyrule, was also a descendant,
and was therefore imprisoned by Agahnim in the dungeons of Hyrule Castle.
However, Zelda called frantically from her cell.

"Link, a boy of Hyrule, heard her cries.
He began a quest to save the princess and defeat Ganon.
Numerous dangers lay in wait,
but Link, mustering his courage, wisdom, and power,
was at last able to defeat Ganon.
He then departed to search for new adventure.
The people of Hyrule, extolling the tales of his deeds, came to revere the hero Link.
An era of peace descended upon Hyrule."

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 11 December 2008 - 11:25 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

According to the context, though, is that LTTP happened six years ago, not the Imprisoning War.

But way to deliberately mislead people.

[Raien]

In the context of TP referencing ALttP, it's understandable why you thought there was a deliberate connection between TWW and AoL (and you must excuse me for I did not see any parallels in the speech myself). TWW and TP both make it obvious that NOA like adding timeline references where they don't really exist. But that said, we should all remember the fact that game references are not all by nature timeline references; they have to refer to two contexts in order to to connect two events. I did not interpret Ganondorf quoting the Triforce in TP as a timeline reference because it did not address the context of ALttP, and for the same reason, I would not call Daphnes' speech in TWW a timeline reference, even if the "ray of hope " line was in the Japanese script.

As for AST, it's a clear over-simplification of ALttP's story, in the same way that TWW over-simplifies OoT's story. It's pretty obvious that the Sacred Realm was not immediately sealed before the events of ALttP.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Everything there is said to have taken place 6 years before, including Ganon's seizure of the Triforce. Sound & Drama actually put forth a similar story three years before the release of AST, in 1994, placing Ganon's theft of the Triforce as occurring during ALttP Link and Zelda's lifetime.

For clarification: I am not suggesting that they say that the Sacred Realm was sealed a few years before; I'm suggesting that the way they (both S&D and AST) introduce Ganon's theft of the Triforce in ALttP (in the year the events took place) makes it impossible for it to have occurred in the IW (hundreds of years before the events took place). This would make the connection between ALttP Ganon's theft of the Triforce and the IW tenuous at best as of 1994, with each new reference to ALttP demonstrating its fragility time and again:

1996: AST is released. Ganon steals the Triforce 6 years before AST instead of hundreds of years before in the IW.
1998: OoT is released. The Triforce splits when Ganon obtains it in the IW instead of Ganon having a wish granted. (Miyamoto states the timeline is OoT-LoZ/AoL-ALttP)
2002: ALttP GBA is released. Ganon is no longer mentioned in the IW story.
2003: TWW is released. The Ganon from the Adult events of OoT dies instead of remaining sealed all the way to ALttP.
2004: FSA is released. Ganon's history is unknown to anyone up to the events of the game.
2006: TP is released. It is impossible for the IW exist on the Child timeline without substantial revisions to the content of the event, for which no evidence exists.

That's seven separate times in which we've found that ALttP's original story or its original significance with respect to the series at large has been compromised. I honestly can't see what reason there is to uphold any of it at present.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 11 December 2008 - 01:57 PM.

[Raien]

What is Sound & Drama?

[Lexxi Aileron]

Sound & Drama was the official release of the ALttP soundtrack, and contained a "radio drama" voice performance (like the Star Wars Radio Drama) that talked about the events of Link and Zelda's lives immediately before ALttP. The translated script appears here. AST seems to follow the Sound & Drama in that it ignores the IW and instead has Ganon stealing the Triforce in the very year of ALttP. Otherwise, Sound & Drama adds a number of things to the background of ALttP that weren't there in the game, including Link encountering the Crest of Courage (which was again seen in OoT).

[wring]

Nintendo of America's translations often make reference to something that's not there, don't we all know that? This would seem to have been one such case, at least that's what it appeared, tracing the other similarities to AoL. The small references to AoL in PH seemed to support it, but now I really don't see enough evidence to say that elements from AoL's backstory were co-opted for TWW (like the IW being co-opted for OoT). You guys seem to have this idea that I'm totally inflexible and that I refuse to accept new information; I don't know where that's coming from. XD

As for AST, a recap of ALttP says that Ganon took the Triforce "six years ago," much different than him taking it the "generations/centuries ago" when the IW happened.

"The legendary kingdom of Hyrule.
6 years ago, in this once-peaceful country,
the Prince of Thieves Ganondorf took the Triforce,
became the demon king Ganon, and was attempting to conquer the land.
The priest Agahnim, possessed by Ganon,
tried to sacrifice the descendants of the seven sages one by one
and break the seal.
Zelda, princess of Hyrule, was also a descendant,
and was therefore imprisoned by Agahnim in the dungeons of Hyrule Castle.
However, Zelda called frantically from her cell.

"Link, a boy of Hyrule, heard her cries.
He began a quest to save the princess and defeat Ganon.
Numerous dangers lay in wait,
but Link, mustering his courage, wisdom, and power,
was at last able to defeat Ganon.
He then departed to search for new adventure.
The people of Hyrule, extolling the tales of his deeds, came to revere the hero Link.
An era of peace descended upon Hyrule."

I believe they ment six years ago, Ganon had already taken the Triforce, and was currently attempting to conquer Hyrule. Besides, that would make the Maidens like five years old.

[Raien]

Upon reading Sound & Drama, I notice some exciting parallels:

-Zelda controls the gateway that leads to the Triforce.
-Ganondorf is looking for Zelda in order to get the Triforce.
-Ganondorf invades the castle and kills the King of Hyrule.
-Link gets the power of Courage from the Triforce.

This is clearly the inspiration for OoT's story! Awesomeness! And it makes no sense in the context of ALttP, just like OoT! Double awesomeness!

PS: It's quite clear from this that AST is referring to the events in S&D, rather than the IW. Since S&D story is clearly not canon (as it makes no sense with regards to the events in ALttP), the relevance of AST is nullified as a consequence.

Edited by Raian, 11 December 2008 - 03:29 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

(as it makes no sense with regards to the events in ALttP), the relevance of AST is nullified as a consequence.

Wouldn't OoT itself be nullified as a necessary next step? =P

Silliness aside, OoT was always just as nonsensical as a prequel to ALttP (Ganon never got the full Triforce and made a wish, after all), but does that makes its designation as the IW (when it was released) any less sound?

[Raien]

Silliness aside, OoT was always just as nonsensical as a prequel to ALttP (Ganon never got the full Triforce and made a wish, after all), but does that makes its designation as the IW (when it was released) any less sound?

I'm sure that when S&D was released, it was created as an official explanation of events in ALttP's back story.
I'm sure that when OoT was released, it was created as an official explanation of events in ALttP's back story.

Neither of them connect to ALttP on a fundamental level, and neither of them have been referenced in relation to ALttP since their initial release. I personally think that's very telling.

[Lexxi Aileron]

I'd personally disagree, as as you said yourself S&D seems clearly to have been the backdrop for AST, and Ganon's role in the IW doesn't seem to be as important to ALttP as of the GBA rerelease. So I'd say the most recent indications show that the current direction in terms of ALttP HAS been influenced by the S&D. Same goes for OoT: TWW seems to say that it doesn't directly connect, but that should have been obvious from the S&D, AST, and OoT itself already, and then TP goes and describes conflicts involving the Sacred Realm that seem to have taken place before OoT (clearly pulling from the ALttP manual).

The IW seems to no longer be an integral part of the ALttP standalone story, as far as I can see, and thus I take no issue with S&D and AST both being altogether canonical. Even if it is, it's a confusing mess working out where ALttP fits either way.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 11 December 2008 - 05:12 PM.

[Raien]

I'd personally disagree, as as you said yourself S&D seems clearly to have been the backdrop for AST, and Ganon's role in the IW doesn't seem to be as important to ALttP as of the GBA rerelease. Same goes for OoT: TWW seems to say that it doesn't directly connect, but that should have been obvious from the S&D, AST, and OoT itself already, and then TP goes and describes conflicts involving the Sacred Realm that seem to have taken place before OoT (clearly pulling from the ALttP manual).

I said that AST was clearly using S&D as a reference to explain the timeline, which shows that S&D was, at some point, officially believed to be canon. But it obviously isn't canon now because it makes no sense and Nintendo don't acknowledge it. So why can't we say that OoT=IW isn't canon because it makes no sense and Nintendo don't acknowledge it? I mean, they killed Ganon and flooded Hyrule, for goodness' sake!

The IW seems to no longer be an integral part of the ALttP standalone story, as far as I can see, and thus I take no issue with S&D and AST both being altogether canonical. Even if it is, it's a confusing mess working out where ALttP fits either way.

The IW is integral to ALttP GBA.

-Hyrule was attacked by Ganon's forces in the Dark World.
-The Dark World was sealed by Seven Sages.
-The Knights of Hyrule were killed protecting the Seven Sages.

That's the Imprisoning War in all but name. Are you seriously saying that because the name "Imprisoning War" is not mentioned, that suddenly every reference to it in ALttP GBA magically does not exist?

Edited by Raian, 11 December 2008 - 05:30 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

By "the IW is not integral to ALttP GBA" I mean "the IW is no longer used to explain how Ganon got the Triforce in ALttP GBA." And it's not, is it? Since Ganon controls the Sacred Realm, it's still important as he needs to break the seal to go on to conquer the light world. And since S&D and AST both supply a different Triforce scenario than the original SNES ALttP, I would say that there's no reason to assume that the SNES ALttP's story is the most correct, since it now makes no sense and Nintendo doesn't acknowledge it.

[Impossible]

Of course Lex didn't mention that S&D's story is nothing like ALttP. And obviously not canon.

The IW doesn't stop existing or become a separate event just because the GBA version's manual was heavily abridged. That argument has been had before, it was clear that it's the same story. At least the meaning is the story, and we're not nitpicking at a single word. *cough* I trust ALttP over AST, and definitely over S&D.

I'm wondering where you got that AST quote from, though, because I haven't seen it.

[Raien]

By "the IW is not integral to ALttP GBA" I mean "the IW is no longer used to explain how Ganon got the Triforce in ALttP GBA." And it's not, is it? Since Ganon controls the Sacred Realm, it's still important as he needs to break the seal to go on to conquer the light world. And since S&D and AST both supply a different Triforce scenario than the original SNES ALttP, I would say that there's no reason to assume that the SNES ALttP's story is the most correct, since it now makes no sense and Nintendo doesn't acknowledge it.

ALttP's manual is no longer used to explain how Ganon got the Triforce in ALttP GBA. ALttP's manual =/= Imprisoning War.

ALttP GBA establishes the three key points I mentioned in my last post. These events, and thus the Imprisoning War, remain integral to the story.

[Lexxi Aileron]

It's from the voice-acting script. Duke Serkol wants to recheck the translation specifically because he's perplexed that it doesn't line up. =p You can read the script as translated so far here.

As for S&D's story being nothing like ALttP-- it's official, so it doesn't matter whether it is or isn't like ALttP.

ALttP's manual is no longer used to explain how Ganon got the Triforce in ALttP GBA.

As stated about a million times, no quote in GBA ALttP connects Ganon to the IW. Very little information about it appears in-game that didn't appear in the manual, and none of that information has to do with Ganon. His rediscovery of the Sacred Realm, his wish on the Triforce, the transformation of the Sacred Realm according to his wish, and so on are all explained separately, and S&D is not impossible to fit in this picture.

[Raien]

As stated about a million times, no quote in GBA ALttP connects Ganon to the IW. Very little information about it appears in-game that didn't appear in the manual, and none of that information has to do with Ganon. His rediscovery of the Sacred Realm, his wish on the Triforce, the transformation of the Sacred Realm according to his wish, and so on are all explained separately, and S&D is not impossible to fit in this picture.

The IW is stated to have been instigated by the army of the Dark World. The Dark World is stated to have been created and ruled by Ganon. Thus, it is established that Ganon instigated the Imprisoning War in ALttP GBA.

PS: Just to keep one step ahead of you, Jumbie's translation of ALTTP GBA's manual does not suggest that the IW was the first time the Triforce was taken:

長い年月の後、黄金が隠された聖地への入り口がハイラル王国で聖地へと向かいましたが帰ってきたものはなく、それどころか悪しき力がそこから湧き出るようになったのです。
After many years, people headed for the sacred place that hid the gold, the entrance to which was in the kingdom of Hyrule. But none returned – on the contrary, evil power came gushing forth from there.
After many years, an opening was found that led from our fair Hyrule to the Golden Land, where the mystical Triforce was still hidden. Many sought treasure in this place, but none returned - only beings of great evil emerged from the Golden Land.

Now that's covered in advance, your move.

Edited by Raian, 11 December 2008 - 06:30 PM.

[Impossible]

As for S&D's story being nothing like ALttP-- it's official, so it doesn't matter whether it is or isn't like ALttP.

The manga is official, too. Your point? It's not the story of ALttP. How the hell is that not relevant?