506 replies to this topic

[FDL]

You're right. If someone was a new player and completely misinterpreted that quote they would believe that.

[NM87]

You're right. If someone was a new player and completely misinterpreted that quote they would believe that.

As if Nintendo weren't trying to make Zelda games more understandable for new players? That is what it says plainly, no misinterpreting quotations there.

[FDL]

So you're just going to ignore all the people who've explained to you that you're misinterpreting it? Whatever.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Why can't the restrict and subdue part be about sending him to the TR?

Because the sequence was "exposed, subdued, and brought to justice." The execution is last in this sequence.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that the term "chosen by the gods" has no inherent meaning regardless of context?

The term "chosen by the gods" need not mean "predestined," if that's what you're saying. It does in the case of Link and Zelda, who are fated to receive the Triforce crests when an unbalanced heart touches it, but in the case of Ganondorf he is "chosen" to receive only the part that he most believes in, in accordance with the divine power of the Triforce to weigh his heart.

In TP, all that really matters is that these characters received those powers from the divine.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 12 October 2008 - 10:58 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Ok! Ok! I'm done being stupid. He doesn' die. Anyway! Why can't the restrict and subdue part be about sending him to the TR? Isn't that like trying to subdue him? Why would they refer to the execution as a "subdue" or "restrict" when they are clearly trying to "eliminate"? That's my point.

How is Ganondorf "subdued" or "restricted" by sending him to the TR?

I think to a common person that would mean he had more power then they expected. Which-is-what-it pretty much means. Which is why the TR didn't hold him like they had thought. HA!

Um, no. He had more power than they expected, yes. So they tried to execute him but he had more power than they expected(Triforce/PotG) so in a last-ditch attempt to get him away from them they send him to the TR.

The Twilight Mirror was never part of the plan. They overestimated their abilities to take care of Ganondorf on their own, so they send him to the TR. They then apologize to Midna for having to do so.

Raian: "Chosen by the Gods" is TP's way of saying that they have a Triforce piece, just like "Power of the Gods" is TP's name for the Triforce, or "Divine Prank" means Ganondorf somehow got the Triforce. The dilemma for new players you seem to see here (have you talked to any new players with this dilemma? I'm just curious where you're getting it.) only exists if they insist on looking at what the literal words are that the game says. In OoT and TWW these people were "chosen by the gods," so I don't see why TP should magically be different.

Unless I'm totally off of your point, here, 'cause I'm not quite sure what you're arguing against.

And I've brought this up before, but being new player-friendly probably wasn't really that big a deal in TP until the last year of development. Until then, it was going to be released on the Gamecube, which only die-hard Nintendo fans had anyway. Not to mention that the game really feels like they went through at the last minute to make it "new user-friendly," eliminating the word "Triforce" being a prime example.

And I'm sure there's more I want to say, but it's 11:00 for me, and I got to get up early for school.

[NM87]

After re-reading posts and not being so stubborn, it seems I must be stupid. Someone clarify this line to me:

Overestimating our power as sages, we attempted to control the evil magic?

The Sages weren't trying to control his magic they tried to kill him. So why are they saying control? When was this overestimation of their powers in which they try to control the evil power? Certainly not the execution, because and execution is when you kill somebody, not control them.

[jacensolo06]

The Sages weren't trying to control his magic they tried to kill him. So why are they saying control? When was this overestimation of their powers in which they try to control the evil power? Certainly not the execution, because and execution is when you kill somebody, not control them.

They were controlling his magic, not him. In other words, they were keeping him from using his magic so that they could kill him. They overestimated this ability and weren't able to control his power once he used/gained the Triforce/PotG/whatever.

[Raien]

Okay, FDL has rightly pointed out that I'm forgetting arguments and mixing everything up disastrously, so I'm just going to get to the heart of the problem; I have no patience for circumstantial evidence. I can believe that TWW's back story is being ambiguous when detailed events are provided in OoT, but I can't believe that TP's back story is being ambiguous when there is nothing to suggest any more detail.

Raian: "Chosen by the Gods" is TP's way of saying that they have a Triforce piece, just like "Power of the Gods" is TP's name for the Triforce, or "Divine Prank" means Ganondorf somehow got the Triforce. The dilemma for new players you seem to see here (have you talked to any new players with this dilemma? I'm just curious where you're getting it.) only exists if they insist on looking at what the literal words are that the game says. In OoT and TWW these people were "chosen by the gods," so I don't see why TP should magically be different.

I think you're confused. Even FDL has said that he believes that "chosen by the gods" means the literal "selected by the gods", but he justifies his stance with the claim that touching the Triforce was not enough for Ganondorf to claim the ToP; the goddesses had to have subsequently chosen him right after the Triforce split. It is this that I disagree with, because I think the legend of the Triforce made it perfectly clear that Ganondorf received the ToP because of a Triforce mechanic, not an act of selection by the goddesses.

And I've brought this up before, but being new player-friendly probably wasn't really that big a deal in TP until the last year of development. Until then, it was going to be released on the Gamecube, which only die-hard Nintendo fans had anyway. Not to mention that the game really feels like they went through at the last minute to make it "new user-friendly," eliminating the word "Triforce" being a prime example.

As I recall, the interviews that encouraged me to establish the "new player-friendly" philosophy in timeline theorising were made as far as back as the OoT era. The Wii encouraged player-friendliness in terms of gameplay, but Miyamoto had been encouraging player-friendliness in storylines since he created the Zelda series.

Edited by Raian, 13 October 2008 - 08:24 AM.

[FDL]

Okay, FDL has rightly pointed out that I'm forgetting arguments and mixing everything up disastrously, so I'm just going to get to the heart of the problem; I have no patience for circumstantial evidence. I can believe that TWW's back story is being ambiguous when detailed events are provided in OoT, but I can't believe that TP's back story is being ambiguous when there is nothing to suggest any more detail.

Actually, there are several implications in OoT's ending that suggest that Link went back to a time after the three received their pieces. My opinion is that TP including the Triforce pieces in it's story further cements these implications, rather than inventing some new, contradictory, time in which they received their pieces.

I think you're confused. Even FDL has said that he believes that "chosen by the gods" means the literal "selected by the gods", but he justifies his stance with the claim that touching the Triforce was not enough for Ganondorf to claim the ToP; the goddesses had to have subsequently chosen him right after the Triforce split. It is this that I disagree with, because I think the legend of the Triforce made it perfectly clear that Ganondorf received the ToP because of a Triforce mechanic, not an act of selection by the goddesses.

CID's got it sort of right actually. I believe "chosen by the gods" refers to the crest on the back of their hands, as it has since OoT. Yes, in OoT we were unsure if Ganondorf was chosen or if he was a special case because he touched the Triforce, but TP seems to confirm that the crest was indeed something that signifies chosen status. The crest has huge amounts of importance placed upon it, and not even just in reference to Link and Zelda either. And as I said before, Midna was given the ToW for a time and did not receive a crest on the back of her hand.

Also, the two quotes that you believe imply that Ganondorf received the Triforce from the gods themselves by Occam's Razor are contradicted if you go by Occam's Razor for other quotes/actions. Because the Sages allegedly believing that Ganondorf was chosen because he obtained it right then is contradicted by their "overestimation", while Ganondorf's supposed devoutness is called into question by his defilement of the statue of the goddesses, his chuckle/lack of surprise at the Triforce saving him, and the fact he explicitly says he doesn't believe in the goddesses in the extended ending quote.

As I recall, the interviews that encouraged me to establish the "new player-friendly" philosophy in timeline theorising were made as far as back as the OoT era. The Wii encouraged player-friendliness in terms of gameplay, but Miyamoto had been encouraging player-friendliness in storylines since he created the Zelda series.

Has he really? I've only seen him say he doesn't place much importance in Zelda storylines at all, but he still has said that OoT was intended to be a prequel to ALttP. And Aonuma seems much more active story-wise, and much more into referencing past games.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Has he really? I've only seen him say he doesn't place much importance in Zelda storylines at all...

I'm guessing you're thinking of this quote?

Miyamoto: For every Zelda game we tell a new story, but we actually have an enormous document that explains how the game relates to the others, and bind them together. But to be honest, they are not that important to us.

But this doesn't mean he doesn't think the story is important; it just means that the overall experience is more important. If the story doesn't create a good overall experience, then it isn't worth carp on a stick.

Miyamoto: I don't think that a story alone can make a game exciting. I'm afraid that people think that I ignore story lines or that I don't feel that the story has any value. My first priority is whether the game play is interesting. What I mean by that is that a player is actively involved in the game. The story is just one of the ways to get players interested, like the enemies or puzzles. If you just want a good story, you should pick up a novel or see a movie. The difference is in the participation. In a game, you might meet a character, but you don't find out his story until later, after you do something that reveals the truth about him. It's all up to the player. You only get that sort of experience with the interactive entertainment. Of course, the scenario, characters and graphics are all important, but it?s this active attitude that is the most important element.

Certainly not the execution, because and execution is when you kill somebody, not control them.

They failed to control his power, and that is why they couldn't kill him. The Master Sword is sufficient to do this, and that is why it is able to kill him in the ending.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 13 October 2008 - 11:01 AM.

[FDL]

Those are probably the quotes I'm thinking of. But I thought I remembered another quote in which he claimed that he did not focus on the story, and that he left it up to other people.

[NM87]

They were controlling his magic, not him. In other words, they were keeping him from using his magic so that they could kill him. They overestimated this ability and weren't able to control his power once he used/gained the Triforce/PotG/whatever.

They failed to control his power, and that is why they couldn't kill him. The Master Sword is sufficient to do this, and that is why it is able to kill him in the ending.

The crest is not on his hand until after he is ?executed? which means he didn?t have that power until then. So they couldn?t be overestimating the ?chosen power? because he never had it until that point.

Because the Sages allegedly believing that Ganondorf was chosen because he obtained it right then is contradicted by their "overestimation", while Ganondorf's supposed devoutness is called into question by his defilement of the statue of the goddesses, his chuckle/lack of surprise at the Triforce saving him, and the fact he explicitly says he doesn't believe in the goddesses in the extended ending quote.

Ganondorf doesn?t believe in the goddesses but believes in the Triforce? I think he may be angry at them for his people?s treatment in Hyrule. If this Ganondorf is the Ganondorf of OOT, then it means he thinks the same way as the Ganondorf in WW. It isn?t that he doesn?t believe in the goddesses.

[Raien]

Actually, there are several implications in OoT's ending that suggest that Link went back to a time after the three received their pieces.

List them please.

My opinion is that TP including the Triforce pieces in it's story further cements these implications, rather than inventing some new, contradictory, time in which they received their pieces.

"Contradictory" time? What contradictions?

Yes, in OoT we were unsure if Ganondorf was chosen or if he was a special case because he touched the Triforce, but TP seems to confirm that the crest was indeed something that signifies chosen status.

Looking through TP's script again, the crest is actually stated to indicate chosen status. But that has no bearing on whether Ganondorf in OoT was a special case, which is the crux of this particular debate.

The crest is not on his hand until after he is “executed” which means he didn’t have that power until then. So they couldn’t be overestimating the “chosen power” because he never had it until that point.

How do you know the crest wasn't on Ganondorf's hand? Ganondorf was wearing a glove during the execution.

And to Lex, I don't think those are the quotes that I was thinking of. But then again, I can't specifically remember what those quotes were, if indeed who said them.

Edited by Raian, 13 October 2008 - 12:14 PM.

[FDL]

List them please.

Zelda's request of Link to put the Master Sword to rest and close the Door of Time.
The Door of Time being open and Link actually being in the ToT.
I suppose Link having any equipment.
Link having a resonating Triforce crest on the back of his hand.

"Contradictory" time? What contradictions?

In theories where the Triforce splits and goes to the three crest bearers after Ganondorf is executed or whatever, the ending of OoT(in which Link already had a Triforce) is contradicted.

Looking through TP's script again, the crest is actually stated to indicate chosen status. But that has no bearing on whether Ganondorf in OoT was a special case, which is the crux of this particular debate.

I've already answered that, long ago. You guys say that Ganondorf could not have touched the Triforce and still be considered chosen. This is not so. As I said last time we went over this, while we had no way of knowing whether or not Ganondorf had the crest on his hand because of the "Triforce mechanic" or otherwise in OoT. However, the fact that TP tells us that the crest indicates chosen status retroactively calls into doubt the idea that this was just part of the normal Triforce mechanic. Again, I think you may be forgetting the previous parts of this discussion.

Edited by FDL, 13 October 2008 - 12:38 PM.

[Raien]

Zelda's request of Link to put the Master Sword to rest and close the Door of Time.
The Door of Time being open and Link actually being in the ToT.
I suppose Link having any equipment.
Link having a resonating Triforce crest on the back of his hand.

In theories where the Triforce splits and goes to the three crest bearers after Ganondorf is executed or whatever, the ending of OoT(in which Link already had a Triforce) is contradicted.

I have one question that covers both responses. If the Triforce split shortly after Link closed the Door of Time, giving the three characters their Triforce pieces, what contradictions would exist with OoT's ending?

[FDL]

I never argued it wouldn't. I was arguing against NM at first, and then against you when you appeared to join his side. This argument has become a bit confusing, I'm afraid. But I think you said I was basing my theory on no evidence, which is when I suggested to you that the things in OoT's ending imply certain things about how the story may continue. No offense, but you're starting to confuse me as to what you're actually arguing.

[Raien]

I never argued it wouldn't. I was arguing against NM at first, and then against you when you appeared to join his side. This argument has become a bit confusing, I'm afraid. But I think you said I was basing my theory on no evidence, which is when I suggested to you that the things in OoT's ending imply certain things about how the story may continue. No offense, but you're starting to confuse me as to what you're actually arguing.

The thing is that NM87 and I are working from the same philosophy to create different arguments. When CID Farwin called the philosophy "utter bollocks", I just wanted to establish that the philosophy does work and things got messy from there on.

[Lexxi Aileron]

If the Triforce split shortly after Link closed the Door of Time, giving the three characters their Triforce pieces, what contradictions would exist with OoT's ending?

None, however I see no real indication of it doing so on its own accord rather than because Ganondorf touches it. "Chosen by the gods" doesn't suggest by any means that the Triforce was automatically awarded-- Link is the chosen hero in TWW, yet he must go get the Triforce of Courage himself, for example.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 13 October 2008 - 01:14 PM.

[FDL]

The thing is that NM87 and I are working from the same philosophy to create different arguments. When CID Farwin called the philosophy "utter bollocks", I just wanted to establish that the philosophy does work and things got messy from there on.

Here's my problem: you both say you are working from that philosophy but you really don't appear to genuinely do so. NM's belief that the Triforce isn't in TP simply because the word "Triforce" is never said is not a truthfully accurate representation of what such a philosophy would entail. Neither is a theory that is based around the gods handing over the Triforce after the Door of Time is closed, because it relies on the timeline split and other things of that nature. These things go above and beyond simply ignoring other games(which has never been something they've asked of people anyway, but w/e) and even go into the realm of guessing at time paradoxes and destined things. I just feel as though you're being disingenuous in your representation of the differences between philosophies and overall "correct-ness" between those of us in this discussion.

Edited by FDL, 13 October 2008 - 01:24 PM.

[Raien]

Then I guess my philosophy is different from NM87's. As far as I am concerned, I simply believe that the meanings provided in each individual game have priority over the meanings provided across multiple games. I don't believe that the meanings provided across multiple games should be excluded altogether. Anyway, let's put this topic to rest again, and hope something else doesn't come up that makes either of us want to post on this again.

Edited by Raian, 13 October 2008 - 02:28 PM.

[FDL]

Indeed. Well, I checked with jacen to make sure NoA didn't add anything, and I wanted to add that Link obtaining the ToC in OoT's ending is mentioned in TP as well. Which is another thing that makes me feel as though they do indeed include OoT's ending in their idea of TP's story. But, as you said, we can put this topic to rest for now.

Edited by FDL, 13 October 2008 - 02:46 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Firstly, I said, "utter bullocks." 'cuz I like puns.

Secondly, that was said in response to NM saying that we shouldn't use our knowledge of past games to understand TP. I think what Raian is saying is the same as what I'm saying: that TP explains itself well enough for new players, but veteran LoZ players will understand more.

To go back to my Legacay of Kain analogy: Defiance, the newest installment, is made new-user friendly, and I understood it just fine having played the two newest before it. But to understand all of it, I needed to play all the ones before it.

I'm not saying you need to play every other Zelda game to understand TP, but things make more sense if you've played at least OoT, and TWW is a plus.

To explain my position: either Link was sent back to a point where Ganondorf had already entered the Sacred Realm, or: Link was sent back with all his stuff. He has things like the bow and Zora's Tunic, which he gives to the Gorons and Zoras, respectively. Why not the Triforce? As a result of Link going back in time the Triforce (of seven years in the future) splits up into pieces and scatters throughout Hyrule. The theory here, is that because Link couldn't take the the ToC with him (lest there be two Triforces of Courage creating a paradox strong enough to, say, split reality in two ) that he gains instead the ToC from the current time(the newly formed "Child" timeline). As a result, Ganondorf and Zelda get the remaining two pieces. Ganondorf considers himself chosen because he gets the Triforce almost right after he is foiled.

On the note of the "chosen" debate. There's different ways that one can be "chosen" in the Zeldaverse. The first is the case of Link. He is the "chosen" hero to overthrow the great evil. This is similar to how Ganondorf sees himself in TP as the "chosen" ruler of Hyrule.

This is different from second way to be "chosen," which is the Triforce-related one. You are "chosen" to have the Trifroce dwell within you.

EDIT: heh, didn't see you guys trying to "bury the hatchet" again until I posted. I'm fine with that, unless there's something in my post that really itches at you.

Edited by CID Farwin, 13 October 2008 - 03:09 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

He dies! Just look at the poor fella. Head hung low. motionless. Then we see a glow. He comes back to life. After watching it again, I think that's what really happened.

He couldn't of just been in shock from the pain (which can cause people to go limp and motionless for several moments)? He can't of just been feigning death as part of his jackass plot to screw over the Sages?

Nevertheless you're trying to imply that the Sages are able to kill Ganondorf on their own, in one blow, without Link or the Master Sword, and that the Triforce, instead of leaving him on EVERY OTHER CASE OF HIS DEATH, decides, "What the hell, I'll bring his ass back."

You people keep trying to pull these elaborate fanfiction scenarios out of your asses for this backstory when it's really simple and concise. Jesus, no wonder Fyxe barely comes here anymore.

[FDL]

You're not referring to me are you MPS? I was under the impression you and Fyxe had views similar to mine on this issue.

[Raien]

Well, I checked with jacen to make sure NoA didn't add anything, and I wanted to add that Link obtaining the ToC in OoT's ending is mentioned in TP as well. Which is another thing that makes me feel as though they do indeed include OoT's ending in their idea of TP's story. But, as you said, we can put this topic to rest for now.

Yeah. Nice revelation, but I'm done.

[FDL]

Aye. It was a nice debate, for the most part.

Edited by FDL, 13 October 2008 - 03:27 PM.

[wring]

9= just started Wind Waker! I like it. I'm stuck on the first dungeon, its hard. But Link looks soo adorable I just want to hug him!

Ok so I was thinking and thinking and I think I got a good timeline theory. Its going to be added to my sig of possible timelines ASAP!

possible Adult Timeline
MC-FS/FSA-OoT-ALttP/LA-WW/PH
possible Child Timeline
MC-FS/FSA-OoT/MM-TP-LoZ/AoL-OoA/OoS

Ok, I thought really hard to come up with this timeline. Its kind of confusing.

Ok, MC, is simple, then FS/FSA, Ganondorf is just a regular Gerudo who somehow transforms into Ganon, and obtains the Trident, and gets the Dark Mirror and creates his dream of a Dark World with it. Then Ganon gets sealed inside the Four Sword. He escapes ages latter and nobody remembers much about him because he's been gone for so long. He gets sealed inside the Dark World. I can't explain how Ganon has the whole Triforce in LttP while he only has a piece in OoT. But if OoT is the IW, Ganondorf can't die inbetween the IW and LttP, becuase the Dark World would be destroyed. He dies at the end of both WW and TP, and the Dark World only exsists on the adult timeline, so I can't find anywhere else that it could fit that really makes much sense. Anyways, Ganon gets revived after LttP and he returns to destroy Hyrule. The people have the complete Triforce so they pray to the Gods to save them, the legend shows the people with the complete Triforce during this time. No hero shows up.

On the other timeline, not much has changed other then LttP being removed.

[jacensolo06]

wring, I suggest you finish playing WW before you try to place it in the timeline.

There are a lot of inherent problems with OoT-ALttP-WW, but I'm only going to mention one.

If OoT is the IW then everyone must have forgotten about the HoT's role by the time ALttP happens. And yet in the WW backstory and to a lesser extent in WW itself, everyone knows about the HoT. How does that work?

Edited by jacensolo06, 14 October 2008 - 01:53 PM.

[wring]

Because A Link to the Past was made before the Hero of Time, so obviously nobody's going to know about him in that game. Its like trying to come up with a timeline baised on the map of Hyrule, or by looking at how Link looks. Its stuff that's naturally going to change throughout the course of the development of the series. They weren't planning on turning the backstory of the IW into a game when they made it.

Another possible reference, in the legend, its says when the events surounding the Hero of Time became Legend, Ganon returns. A Link to the Past, the events of the IW are already Legend. I think there's a gap in the legend, where LttP fits in. Yeah I might change my mind when I get further in, but that's why I call them possible timelines!

[jacensolo06]

I have a lot of things that I could say, but there's no point in discussing it if you haven't finished the game yet. So for now I'll let the game speak for itself and hope that it changes your mind.

Have fun playing WW.