506 replies to this topic

[NM87]

There was no crest in ALttP and the example from TWW was probably a graphical error.

Hmmmm...

Because you basically said "The Triforce not being in TP is one reason why the Triforce isn't in TP".

The sky is blue is one reason why the sky is blue? My reason for the Triforce not being in TP is that Ganondorf never entered the SR. So he didn't touch it. I also don't think the goddesses would give out pieces for free. So I just think it isn't in there.

[FDL]

I'd advise against it. Seeing as Nintendo wants to give more attention to individual stories as opposed to adapting it to the timeline.

I don't think he meant it like that.

So, make up new mechanics for each game, but somehow they are all connected in a big complicated plan. Gee, here I was thinking Nintendo wanted to make things more understandable and focus on each games unique story rather than make it fit into the timeline.

There are many things in the games, TP in particular, that require past knowledge to understand. And it's unlikely they would make up a completely new thing, that looks, acts, and has the same name as a previous thing no less, and not explain it in any way. Ditto for the idea of the Goddesses randomly giving Ganondorf, Zelda, and Link this new power.

It goes something like this. As the sages tell the story, they explain how Ganondorf was blind in all his fury and was brought to justice. They continue to say he was punished for his actions and executed. While you read the text, the scene displays Ganondorf being executed. The text continues about the divine prank, whilst Ganondorf survives the execution. Its as if the visuals and the text were the story as it happened, not that the sages really meant for you to think Ganondorf had this power all along and they underestimated him. They underestimated their ability to seal Ganondorf away in the Twilight Realm, thinking he would be trapped there forever. So it would be:

They were not talking about sealing him away in the Twilight Realm when they mentioned overestimating their powers. They were clearly talking about the fact that they had to seal him away at all. Because their overestimation line is said when they apologize to Midna for throwing Ganondorf in there.

Child portion of OOT.
Ganondorf can not enter the SR.
Ganondorf wages war on Hyrule.
Ganondorf is subdued.
Ganondorf is executed.
Ganondorf gains the chosen power.
Ganondorf survives.
Sages underestimate their ability to contain Ganondorf in TR.
Ganondorf uses Zant to escape.
Link begins his quest.
Link confronts Ganondorf & Zant.
Ganondorf is killed.
Ganondorf loses chosen power.
Crest disappears from Ganondorf?s hand - no sign of a Triforce.

I bolded the things that are not, in fact, stated/shown anywhere in TP. Some of those things are actually contradicted in parts.

The sky is blue is one reason why the sky is blue? My reason for the Triforce not being in TP is that Ganondorf never entered the SR. So he didn't touch it. I also don't think the goddesses would give out pieces for free. So I just think it isn't in there.

Right, but you said that the Triforce not being in TP leads in to ALttP. When I explained that that wasn't required for an ALttP lead-in, you told me that the Triforce isn't in TP. That's a circular argument.

And CID, I don't mean to replace you in this argument. I was just responding on my own, while you can respond when you show up.

Edited by FDL, 08 October 2008 - 10:36 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Child portion of OOT.
Ganondorf can not enter the SR.
Ganondorf wages war on Hyrule.

Isn't the third part of the first and the second contradicted by it?

Just saying.

My reason for the Triforce not being in TP is that Ganondorf never entered the SR.

This is another circular argument.

[NM87]

There are many things in the games, TP in particular, that require past knowledge to understand.

That only is because everyone insists on it.

Because their overestimation line is said when they apologize to Midna for throwing Ganondorf in there.

I did say they overestimated their powers to contain him there, correct?

Right, but you said that the Triforce not being in TP leads in to ALttP. When I explained that that wasn't required for an ALttP lead-in, you told me that the Triforce isn't in TP. That's a circular argument.

Did I say it like that? If I did, then that?s my fault because these sentences I quoted here make my head hurt. I really meant to say that since the Triforce was not disturbed in TP, the IW can occur between TP and ALTTP. Never-mind anything else.

Isn't the third part of the first and the second contradicted by it?

Why? In Child OOT, Ganondorf is running around Hyrule trying to collect the stones (Child portion of OOT). If Link was sent back to that time, and never opens the Door of Time (or closes it ASAP) then Ganondorf would still be searching for a way in (Ganondorf can not enter the SR). He does not succeed so he tries out something new (Ganondorf wages war on Hyrule). You aren?t reading what I am saying correctly which is why you keep calling ?contradiction? and ?circular argument?. Or I am not explaining well enough. Either one.

This is another circular argument.

So its circular because I say the Triforce can not be in TP since Ganondorf never enters the SR? WTH?

Edited by NM87, 08 October 2008 - 11:46 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

In Child OOT, Ganondorf is running around Hyrule trying to collect the stones (Child portion of OOT). If Link was sent back to that time, and never opens the Door of Time (or closes it ASAP) then Ganondorf would still be searching for a way in (Ganondorf can not enter the SR). He does not succeed so he tries out something new (Ganondorf wages war on Hyrule). You aren?t reading what I am saying correctly which is why you keep calling ?contradiction? and ?circular argument?. Or I am not explaining well enough. Either one.

1) So, a portion of the Child portion of OoT. Great that we have to make arbitrary assumptions about what point he's being sent back to.
2) There is no evidence that the Door of Time was never opened. In fact, basing our conclusions purely on what we see, the Door of Time is clearly open when he returns to the past.
3) "He does not succeed so he tries out something new"; this part is frankly unevidenced anywhere in either interviews or text. The interview would suggest that he was decided to be executed before he could try something else. This is a conclusion you have made, but where is your evidence?

So its circular because I say the Triforce can not be in TP since Ganondorf never enters the SR? WTH?

It would only not be circular if Ganondorf never entering the Sacred Realm was some piece of evidence you have instead of the conclusion.

[CID Farwin]

I'd advise against it. Seeing as Nintendo wants to give more attention to individual stories as opposed to adapting it to the timeline.

But that's not the same thing. The fact that they don't put too much stock in when the game takes place doesn't mean that they build Hylian mythology from the ground up any time they make a game. They may tweak a few things, but that doesn't mean that everything's exclusive. Take for instance TWW. Two things that were introduced in that game were: 1) the Master Sword has sages imbuing it with the power to repel evil, if they're killed, the Master Sword will lose that Power. 2) Ganondorf is given more dimension. he's not just the power-hungry maniac we know and love; he might have actually had good intentions at first.

You can't tell me that those don't hold true now.

So, make up new mechanics for each game, but somehow they are all connected in a big complicated plan. Gee, here I was thinking Nintendo wanted to make things more understandable and focus on each games unique story rather than make it fit into the timeline.

They only tell you what's relevant to the current game. Including if they've explained it before, but only if it's necessary. That's probably one of the reasons they omitted the word "Triforce," they didn't want to explain it all again, so they just call it the "Power of the Gods" so that new people understand better.

And what I said in the last paragraph, you're confusing the story and the world. They're different things. How the Triforce works is not timeline related.

No they are not, you added something.

I didn't add anything; I just moved an event that isn't said to happen at any given time to a different spot. And rephrased it.

It goes something like this. As the sages tell the story, they explain how Ganondorf was blind in all his fury and was brought to justice. They continue to say he was punished for his actions and executed. While you read the text, the scene displays Ganondorf being executed. The text continues about the divine prank, whilst Ganondorf survives the execution. Its as if the visuals and the text were the story as it happened, not that the sages really meant for you to think Ganondorf had this power all along and they underestimated him. They underestimated their ability to seal Ganondorf away in the Twilight Realm, thinking he would be trapped there forever. So it would be:

Child portion of OOT.
Ganondorf can not enter the SR.
Ganondorf wages war on Hyrule.
Ganondorf is subdued.
Ganondorf is executed.
Ganondorf gains the chosen power.
Ganondorf survives.
Sages underestimate their ability to contain Ganondorf in TR.
Ganondorf uses Zant to escape.
Link begins his quest.
Link confronts Ganondorf & Zant.
Ganondorf is killed.
Ganondorf loses chosen power.
Crest disappears from Ganondorf?s hand - no sign of a Triforce.

That's pretty much all TP tells us. You are the one adding more context to whats already there.

1) you talk of the 'divine prank' as an event, same with all these other literalists, when in reality the sentence amounts to nothing more than "somehow Ganondorf had the Power of the Gods too."

2) the words "divine prank" do not show up when the crest starts glowing, at the moment you say he got it. The line is said later, when he shows it off to the sages

3) Ganondorf isn't surprised AT ALL when he survives. In fact, he laughs! I'm still trying to figure out if he's laughing at the first of the scene too, or if he's grimacing. It's like he knew he would survive, or something.

4) Where's everyone getting this "overestimated our powers" line?

And CID, I don't mean to replace you in this argument. I was just responding on my own, while you can respond when you show up.

By all means, I don't mind. Different minds think of different things; you might think of something I never thought of.

Oh, and for the record, I don't think Ganondorf touched the Triforce. I'm one of those silly TIME PARADOX people.

[Lexxi Aileron]

To follow up to a certain part of CID's post, presumably they didn't really explain the Triforce's involvement because they didn't want it to turn into yet another Triforce game. (The fifth, I believe, and the third where it's split a la OoT.)

Where's everyone getting this "overestimated our powers" line?

"We overestimated our abilities as sages and attempted to put an end to his evil magic" (English)
"We overestimated our abilities and attempted to control the evil magic" (Japanese- don't really feel like tracking down the exact wording)

Also, in my opinion, the way the Ganondorf backstory dialogue is constructed is designed to be accompanied by visuals in the background. The reason they refrain from mentioning the power of the gods he possesses until the mark appears on his hand is so that this reference has said accompanying visual. It's part of the narration style of TP. The timing doesn't indicate that he got the Triforce at that moment-- that's just the moment the Triforce comes into play in the cutscene.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 09 October 2008 - 01:12 AM.

[FDL]

That only is because everyone insists on it.

What?

I did say they overestimated their powers to contain him there, correct?

Yes, but that's not what they say. If they were talking about Ganondorf escaping the Twilight Realm, they wouldn't be apologizing to Midna. They apologized because their overestimation of their powers caused them to throw him in there in the first place. By the time they sealed him in the Twilight Realm, their overestimation had come to fruition. Otherwise they wouldn't claim their overestimation is what caused Midna's people to suffer from the effects of Ganondorf's evil magic. The idea that they were saying they overestimated their powers and believed he would never escape or harm anyone in the Twilight Realm makes no sense in that context. That'd be like a guy saying "I guess I overestimated my power when I locked that rabid dog in the neighbor's house".

Anyway, Lex did a good job of covering the rest of your post so I'll move on.

4) Where's everyone getting this "overestimated our powers" line?

The Shadow World… they act like it's the otherworld or something… however, that's not so.

In truth it's a beautiful place, calm like the hour of twilight in this world…

Everyone living in the glow of that twilight had a pure heart and a gentle appearance…

But… things changed with the arrival of that evil magic…

It was all our fault.

Overestimating our power as sages, we attempted to control the evil magic?

Please, we hope you forgive our carelessness?

O Twilight Princess.

This is said after Midna and Link reform the Twilight Mirror.

By all means, I don't mind. Different minds think of different things; you might think of something I never thought of.

Yeah, that's why I wanted to be clear. You could think of things I did not, so I didn't want to seem like I was trying to usurp you or whatever.

Oh, and for the record, I don't think Ganondorf touched the Triforce. I'm one of those silly TIME PARADOX people.

Oh, you still think that even though it's been confirmed that Link lost the Triforce of Courage from the Adult timeline when he went back in time?

Edited by FDL, 09 October 2008 - 10:04 AM.

[Raien]

2) Ganondorf is given more dimension. he's not just the power-hungry maniac we know and love; he might have actually had good intentions at first.

I have to disagree with this. Ganondorf invaded Hyrule because he coveted the kingdom, not because he wanted to improve the well-being of the Gerudo. Ganondorf never suggested that he cared about the Gerudo when he began his invasion.

Ganondorf isn't surprised AT ALL when he survives. In fact, he laughs!

I would have said the laughter itself indicates surprise. If I was a madman discovering absolute power at the point I expected to die, I'd be laughing my fucking ass off as well.

[NM87]

1) So, a portion of the Child portion of OoT. Great that we have to make arbitrary assumptions about what point he's being sent back to.

No, that?s not what I said. I don?t want to have to spoon feed this to you?come on. Link was sent back to the time right before or right after pulling the sword, for arguments sake, lets say right after. This means that Link has already gone to the dungeons and the Deku Tree has died etc.. Ganondorf has not yet entered the SR, since Link closes the Door of Time before he can.

2) There is no evidence that the Door of Time was never opened. In fact, basing our conclusions purely on what we see, the Door of Time is clearly open when he returns to the past.

Ok, lets say it was opened, doesn?t mean Link can?t close it right away.

3) "He does not succeed so he tries out something new"; this part is frankly unevidenced anywhere in either interviews or text. The interview would suggest that he was decided to be executed before he could try something else. This is a conclusion you have made, but where is your evidence?

A minute ago someone was saying we need certain aspects of previous games to understand new ones. So, to understand Ganondorf?s actions in TP, we look to the second ending of OOT (Door of Time closed). Ganondorf can not enter?so what happens now? TP tells us the rest.

The timing doesn't indicate that he got the Triforce at that moment-- that's just the moment the Triforce comes into play in the cutscene.

Nay, to me, that signifies the exact moment in which Ganondorf gets the power, since it?s the exact moment in the scene the sages tell us he does.

The fact that they don't put too much stock in when the game takes place doesn't mean that they build Hylian mythology from the ground up any time they make a game. They may tweak a few things, but that doesn't mean that everything's exclusive.

The make up the story first, and then fit it into the timeline. That?s a more simple statement of what I had said.

They only tell you what's relevant to the current game. Including if they've explained it before, but only if it's necessary. That's probably one of the reasons they omitted the word "Triforce," they didn't want to explain it all again, so they just call it the "Power of the Gods" so that new people understand better.

Eh, I would think they keep the name Triforce because that is what everyone associates with the goddesses, as opposed to giving it aliases such as power of the gods, since that would confuse common players into thinking there?s something else other than the Triforce.

And what I said in the last paragraph, you're confusing the story and the world. They're different things. How the Triforce works is not timeline related.

Actually, Triforce mechanics are important to the timeline, since the Triforce is a constant element throughout the games it really does matter whether or not Nintendo explains each transition its many states.

They apologized because their overestimation of their powers caused them to throw him in there in the first place.

?because they thought they could control his magic by sending him there. They sent him there, but he still had most of his power. Sages apologize.

The idea that they were saying they overestimated their powers and believed he would never escape or harm anyone in the Twilight Realm makes no sense in that context.

I never said the sages didn?t think he would harm people in the Twilight Realm.

[FDL]

I'll let CID and Lex handle the bulk of this since I don't want to speak for them, but I will respond to a few I can respond to.

Eh, I would think they keep the name Triforce because that is what everyone associates with the goddesses, as opposed to giving it aliases such as power of the gods, since that would confuse common players into thinking there?s something else other than the Triforce.

The Triforce has always been referred to as the Power of the Gods as well as the Triforce. If you're looking to the name difference for proof, it's not going to work. That'd basically be like me referring to a guy named Bill, who is a fire chief, as the "Fire Chief" and you inferring I wasn't talking about Bill. Even though many people refer to him as "The Fire Chief".

Actually, Triforce mechanics are important to the timeline, since the Triforce is a constant element throughout the games it really does matter whether or not Nintendo explains each transition its many states.

Then I suppose if it were so important they would actually tell us when they made up a whole new power with different mechanics. The belief that this "power of the gods" is the Triforce has many reasons behind it. The "power of the gods is new" relies on splitting hairs and making up fanfiction. Do you really think Nintendo values the latter over the former? The same thing holds true for the idea of Ganondorf gaining the Triforce through divine prank.

?because they thought they could control his magic by sending him there. They sent him there, but he still had most of his power. Sages apologize.

That's completely illogical. There is no reason to believe Ganondorf would lose his power in the Twilight Realm. And the "Twilight Realm" doesn't even fall under a power of the Sages, which is explicitly what they said they overestimated.

I never said the sages didn?t think he would harm people in the Twilight Realm.

Under your theory, that's what they would have to think. They apologized to Midna that the evil magic caused harm to the Twili, and said it was their fault because they overestimated their power and tried to control the magic. If their overestimation was that they sealed Ganondorf in the Twilight Realm they'd have to, rather stupidly, think Ganondorf would not cause harm to the Twili. Because they were apologizing specifically for bringing harm to the Twili. You said that overestimation line was referring to the Sages believing that the Twilight Realm would forever seal Ganondorf and stop his magic. That does not make any sense in the context of the scene.

Edited by FDL, 09 October 2008 - 01:26 PM.

[NM87]

The Triforce has always been referred to as the Power of the Gods as well as the Triforce. If you're looking to the name difference for proof, it's not going to work. That'd basically be like me referring to a guy named Bill, who is a fire chief, as the "Fire Chief" and you inferring I wasn't talking about Bill. Even though many people refer to him as "The Fire Chief".

I don?t live in your neighborhood, so I wouldn?t know Bill is the Fire Chief.

Then I suppose if it were so important they would actually tell us when they made up a whole new power with different mechanics.

This is where the vague style of story telling Nintendo uses in their games.

And the "Twilight Realm" doesn't even fall under a power of the Sages, which is explicitly what they said they overestimated.

Isn?t the Twilight Realm the place where the interlopers were sent as punishment?

They apologized to Midna that the evil magic caused harm to the Twili, and said it was their fault because they overestimated their power and tried to control the magic.

It was a last minute effort to stop Ganondorf. The mirror has been used in the past to seal great magic. Unbeknownst to the sages, Ganon gains the chosen power of the gods. Hey send him into the mirror thinking his magic can be contained since the mirror has contained magic in the past. The mirror wasn?t enough to contain Ganondorf?s power. Thus the overestimation.

[FDL]

I don?t live in your neighborhood, so I wouldn?t know Bill is the Fire Chief.

In this analogy, we live in the same neighborhood. Because we have both played previous Zelda games.

This is where the vague style of story telling Nintendo uses in their games.

I'd say it's more likely they'd be vague with previously known information(see the Sheikah and the legendary hero in TP) than new information(The Twili).

Isn?t the Twilight Realm the place where the interlopers were sent as punishment?

Yes, but it's a place. Not a power.

It was a last minute effort to stop Ganondorf. The mirror has been used in the past to seal great magic. Unbeknownst to the sages, Ganon gains the chosen power of the gods. Hey send him into the mirror thinking his magic can be contained since the mirror has contained magic in the past. The mirror wasn?t enough to contain Ganondorf?s power. Thus the overestimation.

You're not putting it into the context the game gives. They were apologizing to Midna. Their overestimation can not be that they thought Ganondorf would stay in the Twilight Realm, because they were not apologizing that Ganondorf broke loose. They were apologzing because Ganondorf was sealed into the Twilight Realm in the first place. Again, think of it as you locking a rabid animal in your neighbor's house after trying to capture it the right way. If you apologize to your neighbor later on you will be doing so for locking it in their in the first place, not because it broke out eventually. This is explicitly said in game to be who they're apologizing to.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Ganondorf has not yet entered the SR, since Link closes the Door of Time before he can.

1) Link pulls the sword several times. Which time is he arriving after?
2) Ganondorf enters the Sacred Realm immediately after Link draws the sword for the first time, presumably before he is ever even sealed away.

So, to understand Ganondorf?s actions in TP, we look to the second ending of OOT (Door of Time closed). Ganondorf can not enter?

Or Ganondorf already entered, but can't leave.

Nay, to me, that signifies the exact moment in which Ganondorf gets the power, since it?s the exact moment in the scene the sages tell us he does.

Fair enough.

?because they thought they could control his magic by sending him there

That's one of the many interpretations. Among them being "they thought they could control his evil magic by destroying him."

[NM87]

In this analogy, we live in the same neighborhood. Because we have both played previous Zelda games.

We were talking about those who do not live in our neighborhood. Nintendo is making it easier to understand for them.

Yes, but it's a place. Not a power.

Their power to seal him there.

You're not putting it into the context the game gives. They were apologizing to Midna.

It doesn?t? matter who they are apologizing to, but Midna is the leader of the Twilight Realm anyway. They are apologizing to the leader?for sending something there?that caused trouble?because it was a last minute decision they had not thought out?but it turns out it was useless to send him there anyway?since the overestimated their power to do so.

1) Link pulls the sword several times. Which time is he arriving after?

I would guess it?s the first time he pulled it, but I understand he came back and forth a few times.

2) Ganondorf enters the Sacred Realm immediately after Link draws the sword for the first time, presumably before he is ever even sealed away.

When Zelda sent Link back in time, I think that was changed, so Ganondorf never really enters immediately, Link closes it.

Or Ganondorf already entered, but can't leave.

Another possibility. Although TP dismantled it, I think.

That's one of the many interpretations. Among them being "they thought they could control his evil magic by destroying him."

It is one of many, I know. Although I don?t think they had though they could destroy him by sending him there.

[Lexxi Aileron]

I would guess it?s the first time he pulled it, but I understand he came back and forth a few times.

Why the first time? What about his return indicates it's the first time?

When Zelda sent Link back in time, I think that was changed

Why? How? Evidence?

Another possibility. Although TP dismantled it, I think.

Explain, please.

It is one of many, I know. Although I don?t think they had though they could destroy him by sending him there.

That doesn't seem a coherent logical progression: "we can kill this guy by sending him to another world"?

[wring]

Link went back in time to the start of the game. The scene where Link meets Zelda for the first time is repeated at the end of the game. Zelda is looking through the window, gasps, then turns back and looks at Link. Its the exact same event, the only difference is the Camera is focused on Link's Triforce.

[FDL]

We were talking about those who do not live in our neighborhood. Nintendo is making it easier to understand for them.

That doesn't make sense. The new players won't say "This is the Triforce" or "This isn't the Triforce". I'm not sure anymore what you're trying to say. Explain please.

Their power to seal him there.

That's not a power. They didn't seal him, the mirror just did it's thing.

It doesn?t? matter who they are apologizing to, but Midna is the leader of the Twilight Realm anyway. They are apologizing to the leader?for sending something there?that caused trouble?because it was a last minute decision they had not thought out?but it turns out it was useless to send him there anyway?since the overestimated their power to do so.

Here's the problem: You're heavily twisting the words of the game to fit your theory. Their overestimation is why they're apologizing to Midna. The overestimation they made that caused them to have to use the mirror in the first place. Again, your interpretation would basically amount to them saying "Hey, Midna. Sorry that Ganondorf escaped from your world, we overestimated ourselves and thought he'd just be your problem now." It makes no sense. It's an interpretation that actively contradicts their actual words. You're correct up until the bolded part though.

Link went back in time to the start of the game. The scene where Link meets Zelda for the first time is repeated at the end of the game. Zelda is looking through the window, gasps, then turns back and looks at Link. Its the exact same event, the only difference is the Camera is focused on Link's Triforce.

I like how you utterly ignore everything that contradicts that idea.

Edited by FDL, 09 October 2008 - 05:30 PM.

[CID Farwin]

The make up the story first, and then fit it into the timeline. That’s a more simple statement of what I had said.

Okay, so they don't necessarily have a timline placement in mind when they come up with an idea for a game. We agree on this; that's their policy, many people have said this. What I'm arguing against is the implications of your initial statement: that we shouldn't look at any game with other games in mind because they don't limit the story (i.e. events) to fit exactly with another game's.

Eh, I would think they keep the name Triforce because that is what everyone associates with the goddesses, as opposed to giving it aliases such as power of the gods, since that would confuse common players into thinking there’s something else other than the Triforce.

So you are arguing that the Triforce isn't in TP because it isn't mentioned by name. If not, then feel free to ignore this next part.

This applies to everyone who doesn't believe the Triforce is in TP. Suppose in the next game, The Legend of Zelda: Wii motion +, that there's a sword. It has a blue hilt, a Triforce-mark etched in the blade, and glows blue when Link wields it. More-or-less, it looks like this:

This mysterious sword is only referred to as "The sword with the power to repel evil."

Now the question I ask is this: is this a new, mysterious sword? is it the four-sword? Or is it what obviously is? Bear in mind that you may have to (ONOES!) consider a game that's not WM+.

Actually, Triforce mechanics are important to the timeline, since the Triforce is a constant element throughout the games it really does matter whether or not Nintendo explains each transition its many states.

"If the heart of the one who holds the sacred triangle has all three forces in balance, that one will gain the True Force to govern all. But, if that one's heart is not in balance, the Triforce will separate into three parts: Power, Wisdom and Courage" is not an event. Events are what is important to a timeline; that's kind of the definition of a timeline, events put in a certain order.

I have to disagree with this. Ganondorf invaded Hyrule because he coveted the kingdom, not because he wanted to improve the well-being of the Gerudo. Ganondorf never suggested that he cared about the Gerudo when he began his invasion.

Yes, but in a twisted way, he probably thought he was doing the right thing, therefore 'good' intentions.

At any rate, my point is that it gives Ganondorf more dimension, to the extent where you can almost pity him.

Almost.

I would have said the laughter itself indicates surprise. If I was a madman discovering absolute power at the point I expected to die, I'd be laughing my fucking ass off as well.

Good point. Though I would point out one thing: try watching that scene with the idea of OoT->TP->TWW.

Edited by CID Farwin, 09 October 2008 - 06:09 PM.

[FDL]

I don't think that the laughter seemed surprised. It was actually pretty subdued, like it was something he wasn't too surprised by. It was more a chuckle than him "laughing his fucking ass off". He just goes "Hehehe" and jumps right into attacking the Sages.

Edited by FDL, 09 October 2008 - 10:34 PM.

[NM87]

Why the first time? What about his return indicates it's the first time?

Zelda sends him back to the form he was supposed to be. Why would Zelda send him back to a time of chaos.

Why? How? Evidence?

Link closes the Door of Time.

Explain, please.

How could Ganondorf be trapped in the SR if he is out and about waging war in TP. Or do you suppose he was trapped that way, but found a way out? You are adding context to the original TP story. How many times.

That doesn't seem a coherent logical progression: "we can kill this guy by sending him to another world"?

I have never said that, you brought the "destroy" part up.

What I'm arguing against is the implications of your initial statement: that we shouldn't look at any game with other games in mind because they don't limit the story (i.e. events) to fit exactly with another game's.

That's exactly my point, thank you.

Now the question I ask is this: is this a new, mysterious sword? is it the four-sword? Or is it what obviously is? Bear in mind that you may have to (ONOES!) consider a game that's not WM+.

The problem with this, is that the sword would literally be IN THE GAME. It wouldn't be vaguely alluded to.

Events are what is important to a timeline; that's kind of the definition of a timeline, events put in a certain order.

With most of the "events" in a timeline being directly related to the Triforce mechanics, you are still trying to tell me this.

That's not a power. They didn't seal him, the mirror just did it's thing.

So you are sad the sages used the term ?overestimated our power? as opposed to ?overestimated the mirrors power?? I see your reason for dissenting, but I just have to say people are reading Zelda as if it were a Bible. Taking everything to the literal max. Besides, the Sages had to use their power to pen the mirror and send him in there. hey didn't just push a button.

"Hey, Midna. Sorry that Ganondorf escaped from your world, we overestimated ourselves and thought he'd just be your problem now."

Yup, that?s exactly what they are saying. It all comes from the fact that they were at wits end on what to do, so they made a last minute decision to seal him there. They were SCARED.

Edited by Arturo, 10 October 2008 - 06:25 AM.

[FDL]

So you are sad the sages used the term ?overestimated our power? as opposed to ?overestimated the mirrors power?? I see your reason for dissenting, but I just have to say people are reading Zelda as if it were a Bible. Taking everything to the literal max. Besides, the Sages had to use their power to pen the mirror and send him in there. hey didn't just push a button.

I'm not sad, I'm right. Are you honestly saying that a better policy than "Go by what the game says" is "Make up a new meaning for the statements that don't fit your theory"? Because that's what you're doing in this case. What you're suggesting that line means is not backed up in the game at all, and is actually contradicted by it. There's a difference between acting like it's the Bible and understanding what things mean.

Yup, that?s exactly what they are saying. It all comes from the fact that they were at wits end on what to do, so they made a last minute decision to seal him there. They were SCARED.

Yeah, that makes no sense.

Edited by FDL, 09 October 2008 - 11:36 PM.

[NM87]

FDL

Two points:

The sages apologize for sending Ganondorf to the TR. Why?

How do the sages send Ganondorf to the TR?

[jacensolo06]

I think I can answer these for FDL.

The sages apologize for sending Ganondorf to the TR. Why?

They're apologizing for sending a very powerful and dangerous person to where Midna and her people were. Why would they apologize for not being able to keep said person there?

How do the sages send Ganondorf to the TR?

They sent him there using the Mirror. And even if we count that as using their own power, they weren't using their power to keep him there. They were just assuming he wouldn't be able to get out. Ganondorf being able to get out had nothing to do with their power.

[NM87]

They're apologizing for sending a very powerful and dangerous person to where Midna and her people were.

Check.

They were just assuming he wouldn't be able to get out.

Indeed.

Ganondorf being able to get out had nothing to do with their power.

Oh, but it does.

Sages to Midna:
"We are sorry for sending Ganondorf your way..."

Sages to Link:
"...but as you can see our power was not enough to keep him there."

It was a bad decision. The only thing they could do was buy time. It worked in the end.

[FDL]

Okay, now you're definitely twisting their words/actions to fit your theory. They were talking to Midna the whole time. The mirror/Twilight Realm is NOT their power. Even if it's a power of theirs that activates the mirror(it's not), it is not their "power" that contains him, which is what your theory hinges on. Your interpretation makes no logical/grammatical sense. Seriously, if all you're going to do is ignore all the stuff that disagrees with you or actively make up new things then there's really no point in arguing further. No offense, but arguing about fanfiction is pointless.

Thanks for covering that previous post, jacen.

Edited by FDL, 10 October 2008 - 09:25 AM.

[NM87]

Even if it's a power of theirs that activates the mirror(it's not), it is not their "power" that contains him, which is what your theory hinges on.

Well, I am just saying that "in their power" they tried to send him there. Like when someone says "I did all that was in my power...". I am not asking you to subscribe to this interpretation.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Sages to Midna:
"We are sorry for sending Ganondorf your way..."

Sages to Link:
"...but as you can see our power was not enough to keep him there."

Wait. WAIT.

Where in that dialogue is it remotely suggested that the sages are speaking to Link?

Zelda sends him back to the form he was supposed to be. Why would Zelda send him back to a time of chaos.

Any time during OoT's history is a "time of chaos" because Ganondorf is fuxxing with Hyrule throughout the entire game. Try again.

Link closes the Door of Time.

Okay, and how many arbitrary assumptions about the point in time to which he returns do you have to make to establish that Ganondorf hasn't entered the Sacred Realm when he gets back?

Questions:

1) If he goes back to a time before the Door of Time was ever opened, why make such a big deal about closing the Door of Time?
2) If he goes back to a time before the Master Sword was ever pulled, why make such a big deal about laying the Master Sword to rest?
3) If he goes back to a time after the Master Sword was pulled, what's the difference between him being sent back to the first time or the last?
4) If he left the Triforce of Courage in the future, why would he receive it in the past? (in the context of OoT)
5) Why is it so important for Link to have a conversation with Zelda in terms of changing the past?

How could Ganondorf be trapped in the SR if he is out and about waging war in TP. Or do you suppose he was trapped that way, but found a way out?

Why does he have to be out and about waging war if he's already done so and gotten inside the Sacred Realm? He doesn't have to find a way out if that part of the story has already been accomplished. The fact that the game says he invaded Hyrule is the best evidence for placing Link's return to the past after he's already done just this, because then we don't have to make arbitrary assumptions about TP's context.

Well, I am just saying that "in their power" they tried to send him there.

They did send him there. I don't see how that constitutes an overestimation of any kind of ability.

I think I know what you're trying to say. They're overestimating the act of sending him to the Twilight Realm and its ability to control him? But this isn't why they should be apologizing to Midna. They're apologizing to Midna for having to send him there in the first place. Yes, it was careless to send him there (which matches HALF the quote), but what's the overestimation?

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 10 October 2008 - 10:53 AM.

[FDL]

Well, I am just saying that "in their power" they tried to send him there. Like when someone says "I did all that was in my power...". I am not asking you to subscribe to this interpretation.

Yeah, but they were actually referring to their power literally in this instance. This isn't even a subject-to-interpretation thing. They were not using the word "power" in that sense.

Overestimating our power as sages, we attempted to control the evil magic…

That sentence(and the context it's in) doesn't make sense unless they're referring to literal power.

Edited by FDL, 10 October 2008 - 11:00 AM.

[NM87]

Overestimating our power as sages, we attempted to control the evil magic?

That sentence(and the context it's in) doesn't make sense unless they're referring to literal power.

How are they trying to control the evil magic?