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IW Ganon =/= ALttP Ganon?


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#31 Raien

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 12:17 PM

I was actually referring to:

-OoT Ganondorf
-FSA Ganondorf
-ALTTP Ganondorf

I don't believe that OoT is the IW, and I also don't believe that FSA leads into ALTTP. Thus, the story in which Ganondorf took the whole Triforce from the Sacred Realm is what I believe leads to the creation of ALTTP Ganon.

But let's say that I'm wrong for believing in three independent Ganons. It doesn't change the fact that we don't know whether all incarnations of Ganon are the same immortal character, and we don't know the involvement of reincarnation. In order to say that there is a contradiction in the ALTTP > LoZ placement, you need to speculate the nature of Ganon's immortality.

Edited by Raian, 25 April 2008 - 12:18 PM.


#32 LionHarted

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 12:23 PM

I'm faced with the following facts:

--The birth of the character Ganon occurs during the IW.
--"The character Ganon" applies to LoZ's Ganon as well as ALttP's Ganon (taking the word of the ZL translators in good faith).
--OoT is declared the IW.
--Ganon is shown at least twice to undergo literal rebirths (AST, OoX, failure in AoL poses a third, and FSA is questionably a fourth).

I'm not saying there's a contradiction. I'm in fact suggesting that there's not a contradiction--that the same principle is consistent.

In essence, multiple incarnations of the one Ganon. This is not uncommon in mythology. The devil himself is one example: he appears as Satan, Lucifer, Beelzebub, a dragon, a serpent, the Leviathan, and a god to those who practice evil.

Edited by LionHarted, 25 April 2008 - 12:26 PM.


#33 Raien

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 12:42 PM

ALTTP established that Ganon became the Demon King when he, as a human thief, took the Triforce. The ability to resurrect implicated the transformation as permanent. But OoT and subsequently TWW changed what we understood about the character of Ganon and his acquisition of power. He didn't take the Triforce; he took the Triforce of Power. He didn't stay trapped inside the Sacred Realm to send Agahnim out in ALTTP; he escaped earlier and had the kingdom flooded, and was later killed. He didn't become the monstrous pig; he maintained his human form.

It couldn't be any more obvious that Ganondorf's death in TWW (if not the game itself) was evidence of a major script revision, and it's your inability to accept the change that has led to accusations that you manipulate the facts to fit your theory. The script revision sheds doubt on all original plot points that were established prior to OoT, and so no, we can't be expected to assume everything remains the same. FSA would not establish yet another origin of Ganon if it was working with the story established in ALTTP.

And this still doesn't change the fact that we are having to assume. I don't see why we are arguing over speculation.

#34 Jumbie

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 01:08 PM

And ALttP Ganondorf... well, somehow he must also be the one who took the Triforce in OoT.

And the one who was in LoZ, despite dying in ALttP (or vice-versa, if you place them the other way).

Technically, ALttP's manual does imply that, yes. But since that statement has always broken the fourth wall anyway (foreshadowing to LoZ), it could've been retconned by FSA coming in between ALttP and LoZ much easier than retconning an actual story element.

It is not the Trident that will be used by the demon. It is the Trident of the demon being revived.

Earlier you suggested that the Trident is the Master Sword's counterpart. I think that makes sense, in that both were created to repel or assist respectively, any potential demon that might arise.

I was actually referring to:

-OoT Ganondorf
-FSA Ganondorf
-ALTTP Ganondorf

I don't believe that OoT is the IW, and I also don't believe that FSA leads into ALTTP. Thus, the story in which Ganondorf took the whole Triforce from the Sacred Realm is what I believe leads to the creation of ALTTP Ganon.

But let's say that I'm wrong for believing in three independent Ganons.

I've seen that there definitely are three Ganondorfs, including the one of TP. Now, I believe ALttP refers to the one of OoT...although, applying the same logic as with TP Ganondorf, that would make him a fourth Ganondorf then!
So, haven't we figured out that the existence of four Ganondorfs is undeniable no matter if you believe OoT=SW or OoT=/=SW?

ALTTP established that Ganon became the Demon King when he, as a human thief, took the Triforce. The ability to resurrect implicated the transformation as permanent. But OoT and subsequently TWW changed what we understood about the character of Ganon and his acquisition of power. He didn't take the Triforce; he took the Triforce of Power. He didn't stay trapped inside the Sacred Realm to send Agahnim out in ALTTP; he escaped earlier and had the kingdom flooded, and was later killed. He didn't become the monstrous pig; he maintained his human form.

Just because we didn't see Ganon's human form in the earlier games, that doesn't mean he couldn't take it if he wanted to. In LoZ and ALttP, he only met Link for the final fight, logically choosing his pig form to have better chances. But if you remember, Agahnim was Ganon's human form, sort of.

#35 Raien

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 01:36 PM

I've seen that there definitely are three Ganondorfs, including the one of TP. Now, I believe ALttP refers to the one of OoT...although, applying the same logic as with TP Ganondorf, that would make him a fourth Ganondorf then!


I'm looking at human origins; not the different incarnations. OoT is the human origin for both TP and TWW Ganondorf. Unless we assume that Ganon can reincarnate, the human birth of a new Demon King in FSA (or ALTTP) defies the perceived immortality of Ganon.

Just because we didn't see Ganon's human form in the earlier games, that doesn't mean he couldn't take it if he wanted to. In LoZ and ALttP, he only met Link for the final fight, logically choosing his pig form to have better chances. But if you remember, Agahnim was Ganon's human form, sort of.


In ALTTP, the Triforce reflected the heart of everyone in the Sacred Realm; turning them into monsters. Ganon's heart was full of greed, and hence he became the Pig. This is quite clearly the origin of his pig form as the King of Darkness in ALTTP. The mythology changed when Ganondorf was able to become the pig without the Triforce's power, and that Ganondorf could be the Demon King without taking the form of the demon pig.

You could argue "He had the potential to take a human shape", but why would he do that? Ganon takes pride in the fact that he is the Demon King; why would he want to pretend to be human?

Edited by Raian, 25 April 2008 - 01:50 PM.


#36 LionHarted

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 04:25 PM

To Jumbie:

In my opinion, FSA does not follow logically from ALttP, and certainly not as a segue to FSA. If anything, ALttP-FSA moves in the opposite direction from what would need to happen to establish LoZ's atmosphere. FSA's temple pantheon is more intact than those in ALttP; whereas in LoZ Hyrule appears to be in decline. The maidens have extraordinary power, and are central to the defense of Hyrule in FSA; in ALttP, they are more obscure, and have little magical ability. Even if they're unrelated maidens, this doesn't follow at all. And then a number of things flow logically from FSA to ALttP, such as the taking of the Trident, the progression of the Kakariko thieves, the christening of the forest of light as the Lost Woods, etc. etc.

As such, no argument I ever make will use the ALttP-FSA order.

It couldn't be any more obvious that Ganondorf's death in TWW (if not the game itself) was evidence of a major script revision, and it's your inability to accept the change that has led to accusations that you manipulate the facts to fit your theory. The script revision sheds doubt on all original plot points that were established prior to OoT, and so no, we can't be expected to assume everything remains the same.


I don't expect everything remained the same...

I expect that the intent of the older games changed rather than the intent of the newer ones.

FSA would not establish yet another origin of Ganon if it was working with the story established in ALTTP.


Unless the Ganon backstory established in ALttP has been abandoned to OoT and replaced by the story of FSA. Which is, of course, the argument on that front.

In ALTTP, the Triforce reflected the heart of everyone in the Sacred Realm; turning them into monsters. Ganon's heart was full of greed, and hence he became the Pig. This is quite clearly the origin of his pig form as the King of Darkness in ALTTP. The mythology changed when Ganondorf was able to become the pig without the Triforce's power, and that Ganondorf could be the Demon King without taking the form of the demon pig.


It was never established that Ganon became the pig for the same reason the other people transform.


The timeline is NOT ALttP-centric. It is OoT-centric.

Edited by LionHarted, 25 April 2008 - 04:26 PM.


#37 Jumbie

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 04:53 PM

Raian, I know your timeline isn't fully formed anymore (nor is mine really), but I'd like to know what you make of the Ganondorf of ALttP. You say he is not FSA's Ganondorf nor TP Ganondorf. So to you, where does he come from?

#38 Raien

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 04:59 PM

I expect that the intent of the older games changed rather than the intent of the newer ones.


Which is why I argue that OoT is no longer the IW.

It was never established that Ganon became the pig for the same reason the other people transform.


It doesn't have to; it's common sense.

The Sacred Realm reflects the heart.
Ganon's heart is filled with greed.
The Pig is a symbol of greed.

Christ, do you never think outside of direct quotations? Apply the fucking context once in a while.


Raian, I know your timeline isn't fully formed anymore (nor is mine really), but I'd like to know what you make of the Ganondorf of ALttP. You say he is not FSA's Ganondorf nor TP Ganondorf. So to you, where does he come from?


I think ALTTP Ganondorf is just a wholly different incarnation, explained in ALTTP (and SNES manual). He's born as a Gerudo thief, he randomly comes across the Sacred Realm and he takes the whole Triforce. He becomes the Demon King, begins the IW and the Sages seal him away.

Edited by Raian, 25 April 2008 - 05:02 PM.


#39 LionHarted

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 05:20 PM

It doesn't have to; it's common sense.

The Sacred Realm reflects the heart.
Ganon's heart is filled with greed.
The Pig is a symbol of greed.

Christ, do you never think outside of direct quotations? Apply the fucking context once in a while.


He can take the form of Agahnim in the Dark World...

And the manual cites his transformation as a direct result of his wish, whereas the game establishes them as indirect..

Edited by LionHarted, 25 April 2008 - 05:21 PM.


#40 Raien

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 05:26 PM

He can take the form of Agahnim in the Dark World...


Agahnim was a form created to deceive the Hyrulians, whereas the pig is clearly his true form.

And the manual cites his transformation as a direct result of his wish, whereas the game establishes them as indirect..


The wish naturally takes on the same symbolism as the Triforce's power. People wish for what they most desire, which is a reflection of the heart.

Edited by Raian, 25 April 2008 - 05:27 PM.


#41 LionHarted

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 07:30 PM

Agahnim was a form created to deceive the Hyrulians, whereas the pig is clearly his true form.


The way your argument is constructed now, the pig is not his true form.

The wish naturally takes on the same symbolism as the Triforce's power. People wish for what they most desire, which is a reflection of the heart.


Did I ever contest the symbolism? I contested the means.

#42 Jumbie

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 07:32 PM

I think ALTTP Ganondorf is just a wholly different incarnation, explained in ALTTP (and SNES manual). He's born as a Gerudo thief, he randomly comes across the Sacred Realm and he takes the whole Triforce. He becomes the Demon King, begins the IW and the Sages seal him away.

All of that could be true in some mysterious unexplained deviation of OoT's child epoch, after which I put ALttP now. (Though my sig might say otherwise.)

So I ask myself, if you have ALttP so disconnected from the rest anyway (even from FSA), why don't you simply put it into a separate timeline from TP and TWW, too?

#43 Showsni

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 07:41 PM

IW-ALttP works. It's consistent with the sources, and doesn't need OoT around messing it up. ALttP Ganondorf doesn't have to have anythig to do with OoT Ganondorf.

And I think the SR causing the pig shape is clearly implied. (Though the comics have a different reasoning).

A question - does the SR change people because of Ganon's wish alone, or would it do that anyway?


#44 Raien

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 07:57 PM

The way your argument is constructed now, the pig is not his true form.


The form which is natural to Ganon (the default form in which we see him) is his true form. If a character tranforms just to fight, then we can normally assume that is the boss form, not the true form. Unless of course, the boss has been fighting Link in alternate forms, in which case the final form is normally the true form (such as Deth-I in LA).

Did I ever contest the symbolism? I contested the means.


The symbolism defines the means. The pig form is the representation of Ganon's heart, so the item that transforms Ganondorf must reflect his heart. The Triforce is established to perform this function in ALTTP, and thus it quite clearly is the means for the transformation.

So I ask myself, if you have ALttP so disconnected from the rest anyway (even from FSA), why don't you simply put it into a separate timeline from TP and TWW, too?


Because ALTTP has a definite placement after either TP or TWW. It doesn't need to directly follow those events in order to have a placement, just like LoZ doesn't need to directly follow ALTTP to have a placement.

#45 Jumbie

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 09:47 AM

Because ALTTP has a definite placement after either TP or TWW.

Sorry, but that's just rubbish. Nowhere is it said, nor does any evidence imply, that ALttP should be after one of those games.

#46 Raien

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 10:15 AM

Sorry, but that's just rubbish. Nowhere is it said, nor does any evidence imply, that ALttP should be after one of those games.


OoT takes place in the Hylian age, and ALTTP takes place after the Hylian age ended. By that logic, ALTTP takes place after OoT.
Since TP and TWW are direct sequels to OoT, killing off Ganondorf in both timelines, then ALTTP has to take place after TP and TWW, in order to establish the new Ganon.

You appear to be arguing that if there isn't a direct connection between games, then they can't be in the same timeline. Well, there isn't a direct connection between ALTTP and LoZ, so do we argue that those games take place on different timelines?

Edited by Raian, 26 April 2008 - 10:17 AM.


#47 Jumbie

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 04:09 PM

Since TP and TWW are direct sequels to OoT, killing off Ganondorf in both timelines, then ALTTP has to take place after TP and TWW, in order to establish the new Ganon.

That's where you see it too strictly. As Showsni recently said, and many others before, a new timeline can be opened for no reason at any point in time.
It's not my concern at all to look for a reason why this would happen, but rather to look at the myriad of blatant and insistent concordances between ALttP's backstory and events described in OoT, and therefore realize that ALttP's place should be nowhere else than right after a time which lies parallel to when OoT Link met Zelda in two other timelines.

You appear to be arguing that if there isn't a direct connection between games, then they can't be in the same timeline. Well, there isn't a direct connection between ALTTP and LoZ, so do we argue that those games take place on different timelines?

No, the reason it seems I was arguing that way is that I defend the obvious fact that there IS a direct connection between ALttP's backstory and an era closely resembling the OoT era. OoT, and TP even more so, speak about events preceding OoT which have *always* been referred to in ALttP's manual. Since Ganondorf's involvement ties in with those, while it does not in TP, ALttP simply shouldn't be after TP. And I don't have to explain why it cannot be after TWW.

Edited by Jumbie, 26 April 2008 - 04:49 PM.


#48 Raien

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 06:49 PM

That's where you see it too strictly. As Showsni recently said, and many others before, a new timeline can be opened for no reason at any point in time.
It's not my concern at all to look for a reason why this would happen, but rather to look at the myriad of blatant and insistent concordances between ALttP's backstory and events described in OoT, and therefore realize that ALttP's place should be nowhere else than right after a time which lies parallel to when OoT Link met Zelda in two other timelines.

No, the reason it seems I was arguing that way is that I defend the obvious fact that there IS a direct connection between ALttP's backstory and an era closely resembling the OoT era. OoT, and TP even more so, speak about events preceding OoT which have *always* been referred to in ALttP's manual. Since Ganondorf's involvement ties in with those, while it does not in TP, ALttP simply shouldn't be after TP. And I don't have to explain why it cannot be after TWW.


"Similar" does not have to indicate "the same". The Dark Mirror could be the Twilight Mirror because they are similar, but they don't have to be the same. I believe that while ALTTP's BS is similar to OoT / TP, they are not the same. I believe that ALTTP's BS takes place after TP. The end of the Hylian Age is never defined in the Child Timeline, so it is entirely possible that the Hylian age was still reaching its end when ALTTP's back story began.

#49 CID Farwin

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 12:36 AM

Eh, forget it, I'm making a new topic for what I was going to say.

Edited by CID Farwin, 27 April 2008 - 12:36 AM.


#50 LionHarted

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 07:45 AM

"Similar" does not have to indicate "the same". The Dark Mirror could be the Twilight Mirror because they are similar, but they don't have to be the same. I believe that while ALTTP's BS is similar to OoT / TP, they are not the same. I believe that ALTTP's BS takes place after TP. The end of the Hylian Age is never defined in the Child Timeline, so it is entirely possible that the Hylian age was still reaching its end when ALTTP's back story began.


The Sacred Grove COULD be the Master Sword pedestal from ALttP because the endgame scene evokes ALttP art, but they don't have to be the same.
The Church in TP COULD be the Church from ALttP, but it doesn't have to be.
The Triforce marks in TP COULD indicate the possession of Triforce pieces, but they don't have to.

etc. etc. for every single reference in the entire series.

#51 Showsni

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 01:02 PM

Sorry, but that's just rubbish. Nowhere is it said, nor does any evidence imply, that ALttP should be after one of those games.


OoT takes place in the Hylian age, and ALTTP takes place after the Hylian age ended. By that logic, ALTTP takes place after OoT.
Since TP and TWW are direct sequels to OoT, killing off Ganondorf in both timelines, then ALTTP has to take place after TP and TWW, in order to establish the new Ganon.

You appear to be arguing that if there isn't a direct connection between games, then they can't be in the same timeline. Well, there isn't a direct connection between ALTTP and LoZ, so do we argue that those games take place on different timelines?


The "Hylian age"? The evidence of Hylian blood is actually a lot stronger in ALttP than in OoT. Certainly, the people refer to themselves as Hylians in OoT and not ALttP; but popular conception doesn't imply fact. It's also entirely possible for more Hylians to enter Hyrule after ALttP. Looking at the games overall, ALttP clearly seems "older" than OoT, in terms of technology and so on. Plus, ALttP heavily implies the triforce hasn't been moved before the IW since the gods left it, and ALttP follows straight on from the IW; in OoT, the gateway to the SR is well known and locked with a temple, stones, ocarina and a legendary sword.


#52 LionHarted

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 02:36 PM

The evidence of Hylian blood is actually a lot stronger in ALttP than in OoT.


The evidence is that Hylian blood is thinned and the magical powers gone, and the same is true of the sages. Explain to me why this is the case, and then there are lots of people identifying themselves as "Hylian," and the sages have even more extensive powers? OoT implies just as well that the Triforce hasn't moved. That was the point of the creation story being referenced.

ALttP is released, tells the creation story for the first time. Its backstory represents the first time the Triforce is disturbed from the Sacred Realm.
OoT is released as a telling of ALttP's backstory. It also tells us the creation story.
TP is released featuring an alternate history of OoT, and it also tells us the creation story.

The creation story has always and only been associated with the same time period--the time period in which the Triforce was first disturbed. Otherwise there would be no reason to reference it at all.

#53 rayne85

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 05:44 PM

just so some of this makes sense to me, what is IW? I know all the other ones but i've never heard of IW

#54 Mad Scrub

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 06:48 PM

Imprisoning War. Also known as Seal War.

#55 Jumbie

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 08:14 PM

Imprisoning War. Also known as Seal War.

It's about time we abandoned the use of "Imprisoning War". Its true name is Seal War (not even Sealing War), as it's about the Sages' Seal. That's much shorter and smoother than the other thing anyway.

OoT comes after ALttP is the gist of my argument.

Well, that's your preferred placement so you have to defend it somehow. Your points, however, can hardly convince...

Looking at the games overall, ALttP clearly seems "older" than OoT, in terms of technology and so on.

And TMC is the game in which the world feels almost as modern as in TWW, and yet it is the very first game in the timeline - so what?
The Zelda world is an anachronistic world, because Miyamoto loves Western and other developers love the other epochs that have sneaked into some games.

TWW's going with a pirate theme (which no one ever complained about, because of the Flood changing the society) is pure coincidence because they simply wanted the game to feature a sea and sailing - voilą, 17th century here we go.

And how is it that the last games in the timeline, LoZ+AoL, are those that stick most perfectly with the middle ages?

Btw, an often overlooked fact is that ALttP has mailboxes (which of course have their justification, with postmen being around since as early as TMC), while OoT has not.

All of this shows that seeming characteristics of a certain real world epoch have no chance as evidence at all.

Plus, ALttP heavily implies the triforce hasn't been moved before the IW since the gods left it, and ALttP follows straight on from the IW

Actually, this argument here is better used to support OoT > ALttP. :rolleyes:

in OoT, the gateway to the SR is well known and locked with a temple, stones, ocarina and a legendary sword.

It's not well known. It's a legend that only the royal family and the eldest Hyruleans know of.
TP proved that that temple is declining after OoT, with the three mechanisms fading away along with it. That's obviously what we end up with in ALttP, too, as the designers did their best to show.

The creation story has always and only been associated with the same time period--the time period in which the Triforce was first disturbed. Otherwise there would be no reason to reference it at all.

Oh how very true!^^
It's one of the reasons why I have ALttP directly after the OoT era.

#56 LionHarted

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 08:36 PM

Oh how very true!^^
It's one of the reasons why I have ALttP directly after the OoT era.


I purely relate the Creation to the IW, not to ALttP (in the modern chronology), since ALttP itself doesn't lend any reference to it or suggest any knowledge of it.

But, yes, I share the general sentiment, and have realized the trend of the "earliest" Triforce stories always referencing the Creation, while the later ones do not.

Edited by LionHarted, 27 April 2008 - 08:36 PM.


#57 Impossible

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 02:15 AM

If you were going to tell a story about the Triforce, you would explain its origins no matter what, assuming you knew them. It's illogical to say that you would only include the creation story if the story you were telling had complete continuity, because it's necessary to explain where the Triforce came from, as well as setting the stage for the story from the player's perspective. You're reading way too far into that.

Besides, it's not like there's complete continuity between OoT and ALttP anymore anyway, even you know that. ALttP implies continuity in that direction just as much as it implies continuity up to the IW - in fact, much more so, because the game events require that continuity. Nothing at all requires the Triforce to have been disturbed for the first time in the IW, nor is that directly stated to be the case. If we're going by that, then apparently, Lex would have us believe that the Triforce never left the Sacred Realm before ALttP, which is even more ridiculous. Yet it's ALttP's implication. This double standard you're holding is insane. Why the hell are you focusing on one implication of ALttP, and ignoring all the others, and ignoring the facts? ALttP doesn't allow for TWW's events, because of that implied continuity, and yet you think it's perfectly okay to screw with that for the sake of one thing.

You say that ALttP somehow says (which it doesn't) that the Triforce couldn't have left the SR before the IW, but if ALttP is accounting for events so damn precisely from the creation to ALttP, there's a metric shitload missing. Like the fact that the Ganon from what you claim to be the IW is dead. Like TWW. Like the flooding of Hyrule. While you ignore that the maidens make it a clear fact that Ganon in ALttP is the one from the IW. And that's NOT simply believed to be implied, by one person, based on something that was written in fucking 1991 before any other Zelda games even existed to change that fact. If you seriously believe that ALttP isn't wrong about some events, you're delusional. You're making it wrong about far more than I am. Why the hell do a million facts matter less than one single interpretation? You're really warped, you know that? Stop seeing things from only your perspective, because this is just beyond any rational belief. You're so hell bent on one theory that you can't see anything in an objective way anymore. The sheer quantity of evidence is stacked against you, and on top of that, your point is an unnecessary, outdated interpretation, and NOT a fact like many of the other things - one of which is that there's only one Ganon in both the IW and ALttP. You seriously think you can deny that as ALttP's intent, but that this supposed continuity in ALttP's backstory can't be ignored? Even thought ALttP is missing a fucking million other important things that would be necessary for that continuity? You really have warped reality in your favour here.

I purely relate the Creation to the IW, not to ALttP (in the modern chronology), since ALttP itself doesn't lend any reference to it or suggest any knowledge of it.


ALttP's manual suggests that the story is from some kind of text that exists in Hyrule, so yes, it evidently is known to some. But why the hell is it necessary for the Triforce to have been undisturbed before the IW? That's not even said to be the case. It's also entirely possible that people didn't KNOW that was the case, because that was hundreds of years ago and whoever wrote that story was unaware of the events of OoT and TP.

It's amazing how you seem to find it so impossible for ALttP's role to have changed, even though, without realising it, you already HAVE changed it far more than it was ever intended to be. TWW already replaced it as the sequel to OoT's adult events, making it impossible for ALttP to connect entirely to OoT.

Edited by Impossible, 28 April 2008 - 04:01 AM.


#58 Ize

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 03:30 AM

While it's true that ALttP never made it absolutely necessary that the triforce must have never been touched before the IW, according to the split timeline, it actually never has.
If we accept that OoT is the oldest tale (let's ignore TMC), and assume that ALttP comes after the child ending, then no one should have entered the sacred real before, since the triforce never split in the child timeline.

So if the order is: OoT(Child)--->TP--->IW--->ALttP then no one touches the triforce before the IW in that timeline.

But, yes, I share the general sentiment, and have realized the trend of the "earliest" Triforce stories always referencing the Creation, while the later ones do not.


But that's only because the "earliest" stories were created AFTER the the creation myth itself was created for ALttP's manual. All the post-ALttP games that involve the triforce mention the creation myth at least briefly, except I think TWW, which happens to be the game in which most of the myths and stories have been lost. Besides, the game is a direct sequel to OoT, like TP, another game in which there is a very brief creation story, and even then it's done to establish the origin of the twili.

The creation story has always and only been associated with the same time period--the time period in which the Triforce was first disturbed. Otherwise there would be no reason to reference it at all.


The cration myth has always been told in the games that feature the triforce heavily because it could be someone's first zelda game, so that kind of story element will always be given an origin. Usually the creation myth is followed by a story in which the triforce is snatched/touched/tried to be touched. This is because the bad guy that tried to claimed or did claim it is the bad guy of the game or an important plot element. They tell the story of the triforce, then they tell you of the moment THE BAD GUY OF THE GAME YOU ARE PLAYING tried to touch it, setting the background FOR THE GAME YOU ARE PLAYING. (usually the bad guy si gannon, in TP it was ganon too, but related to the twili, who were explained along with the cration myth)

It would be unnecesary to also examine the other times the triforce was touched/claimed/tried to be touched/claimed, because it would be IRRELEVANT TO THE GAME YOU ARE PLAYING.
It's like if they told you the cration myth, then told you the time when the bad guy of this game tried to touch the triforce, and them anecdotically told you about some other game where the triforce was also touched, because it would be irrelevant with the rest of that game's plot.
The designer's first priority is to make every game consistent with itself, the timeline aspect is done later and almost alwas as subtle nods as to not confuse the first time players.

The Church in TP COULD be the Church from ALttP, but it doesn't have to be.


Wait a minute, I can't remember any church in TP, could someone tell me where is this church?

#59 Impossible

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 04:04 AM

The Triforce did split on the Child Timeline. It's true, though, that as of the currently released games, nobody is known to have entered the Sacred Realm and touched it before the IW, even on the Child Timeline.

Lex conveniently ignores the fact that the Triforce never even left the Sacred Realm between the creation and ALttP, assuming that facts established in 1991 are still the case. But they clearly fucking aren't, because there have been more games that contradict this no matter what timeline you put it on. Having ALttP on the Adult Timeline doesn't improve that, and in most areas it makes things worse.

#60 rayne85

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 06:12 AM

Whats the Sealing war? Ok consider me ignorant but i have no idea what half of these timeline situations are...




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