168 replies to this topic

[CID Farwin]

Okay, so I've come up with a few new theories as to how OoT can still be the Imprisoning War within our current knowledge of a Zelda Timeline. Of course they're not perfect, they just occurred to me as possibilities.

PLEASE NOTE: It's taken me a few days to write this, so there's different styles of presenting things, and also I may have forgotten something. Please let me know if the former presents a problem and if I need to elaborate on something because of the latter. Thank you.

Theory #1 (Ganondorf Lives!)

the timeline for this theory goes as follows:
[OoT]---[TWW]/[PH]---[ALttP]/[InS]/[LA]---[LoZ]/[AoL]
|
[MM]---[TP]

So the basic premise for this theory is based on a theory of LionHarted's namely: The Sacred Realm itself is sealed, not Ganon/dorf in it. Please note that this is not LionHarted's theory, merely my take on it.

Ganondorf weasels his way out[1] of the Sacred Realm before TWW, and TWW ensues. The Sacred Realm, however, stays sealed throughout this[2]. AT the end of TWW we see the Triforce zooming off out of the sea. It then goes to the Sacred Realm. Events then follow including:Hyrule being unflooded, Ganondorf being 'soft'-ed, and various other things like Hyrule Castle being rebuilt, The Master Sword goes to the Lost Woods etc. etc. This opens up a few options:
1. Ganondorf takes up the guise of Aghanim and then attempts to break the seal, and thusly be able to grab back the Triforce and make it back to conquer the world.

explanation: this could explain how he "couldn't figure out how to return to the world of Light." meaning, he couldn't think of a way to come back to the light world if he chose to go for the Triforce.

2. Ganondorf goes back[3] to the Sacred Realm, but is stuck, unable to return.

explanation: this better explains how he couldn't return, being stuck again

[1]perhaps Ganondorf used the Magic Mirror to get out pre-TWW?

[2]Just because the metaphorical door's closed, doesn't mean he can't sneak out of a metaphorical window.

[3]Rediscoveres maybe?


Theory #2 (double split)

the timeline for this theory goes as follows:
OoT--TWW
|split 1
|____ALttP/InS/LA--LoZ/AoL
|split 2
|___MM--TP
This one's a little out there, okay A LOT out there. It assumes: 1.that at the end of OoT, Zelda sends Link to a point immediately after he pulled the Master Sword, and thusly Ganondorf is in the Sacred Realm, and 2.that the timeline split is not immediate, but that the changes from the original timeline(Link's actions) are what split it.

Split number 1 occurs when Link, as the Time Traveler, puts back the Master Sword and closes the door of time, Trapping Ganondorf with the seal of the original 7 sages[split 1 occurs here]. This isn't enough, however, and soon evil power begins emanating from the Sacred Realm. The king freaks out and wakes the sages, who then seal the entrance to the Sacred realm, resulting in ALttP.

Split number 2 occurs after split 1 when Link, as the Time Traveler, visits Zelda. He tells her that he's leaving(MM backstory,) and tips her off about Ganondorf[split 2 occurs here]. She then alerts the other sages, who instead of Sealing the Sacred Ream, draw out Ganondorf(or wait for him to appear,) and then subdue him, attempt to execute him , and eventually send him to the Twilight Realm,resulting in TP.

So what does everybody think? Plausible? Impossible? what?

[Jumbie]

Theory 1 I don't like because it's one that puts the old games after PH, something that I rigorously reject, and it is far from a straightforward understanding of ALttP's backstory. I think we shouldn't always try with the crowbar to fit ALttP after TWW.

Theory 2 is similar to the one I've been going with since TP. We had ALttP and TWW happening in separate realities ever since the latter was released, and now TP came conflicting with either of them, so the logical conclusion is three timelines. Only I never found a way to justify a second split, and I don't quite understand your explanation how one should come about. For me, ALttP and TWW are alternate histories both happening after OoT's adult ending, and it just happens completely arbitrarily.

Edited by Jumbie, 20 July 2007 - 09:26 AM.

[CID Farwin]

Theory 1 I don't like because it's one that puts the old games after PH, something that I rigorously reject, and it is far from a straightforward understanding of ALttP's backstory. I think we shouldn't always try with the crowbar to fit ALttP after TWW.

First of all, I don't know how basically anything about PH, so Timeline 1 is made without it. Secondly, nothing is straightforward in Zelda Timelines anymore. We've been rethinking ALttP's backstory since OoT came out. My justification for this theory deals with how most of ALttP's backstory IS the imprisoning war, which happened centuries earlier, and the possibility that something may have happened that maybe the people don't remember. I mean, if everyone forgot that their world was flooded, there's a chance they'd forget it was unflooded and that Ganondorf escaped. I don't think it's all that plausible, I just want to see some good arguments why it wouldn't work. Or would. It's worse than a crowbar; I'm fitting a round peg in a square hole. And anyway, it's not that far from people who swear TWW is last. The single timeliner in me just wants to be proven right.

Theory 2 is similar to the one I've been going with since TP. We had ALttP and TWW happening in separate realities ever since the latter was released, and now TP came conflicting with either of them, so the logical conclusion is three timelines. Only I never found a way to justify a second split, and I don't quite understand your explanation how one should come about. For me, ALttP and TWW are alternate histories both happening after OoT's adult ending, and it just happens completely arbitrarily.

I'll admit, three timelines IS a logical inevitability, my inner single timeliner even has to admit that. I just had a hard enough time with two. I'm just trying for a possible justification, but like I said, it's WAY out there. I'll try to explain it better. The premise has to do with time travel. My theory here is that everything Link does different i.e. closing the door of time and telling Zelda about Ganondorf, each creates the split. maybe a different graph works better.

--------OoT
____--_|_split 1(Link closes Door of Time)
-------/-----\
------/-------\
-----|--------|\split 2(Link talks to Zelda)
-----|--------|-\
-----|--------| MM
-----|--------|----|
---TWW ALttP TP

Am I making sense here? Do I need to explain more? or are you confused on a different point?

Edited by CID Farwin, 20 July 2007 - 11:44 AM.

[LionHarted]

Mmmm, so basically, the two things Link changes each result in a split?

Nice.

btw, as for the "Ganon being turned to stone" thing:

1) Aonuma has said that that was just to pass the censors;
2) PH ignores it and simply says that he died.

Edited by LionHarted, 20 July 2007 - 11:56 AM.

[CID Farwin]

1) Aonuma has said that that was just to pass the censors;
2) PH ignores it and simply says that he died.

Touche. Although the fact that it's there, they could still use it.

Mmmm, so basically, the two things Link changes each result in a split?

Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. Speaking plainly is my Achilles heel.

Edited by CID Farwin, 20 July 2007 - 12:05 PM.

[Jumbie]

First of all, I don't know how basically anything about PH, so Timeline 1 is made without it.

I don't spoil myself on PH either, but I know just that bit that I wanted to know about it: that it doesn't seem to help the timeline in any obvious way.
Anyway I've been holding this belief long before PH was announced, and thanks to the game it still hasn't changed.

the possibility that something may have happened that maybe the people don't remember. I mean, if everyone forgot that their world was flooded, there's a chance they'd forget it was unflooded and that Ganondorf escaped.

Even if that would work - Nintendo's intention was 2003 and still, that Hyrule be gone from TWW's timeline. What with developing innovative Zelda games in the future. I think PH might be just the beginning of "no Hyrule, no Ganondorf".

And anyway, it's not that far from people who swear TWW is last. The single timeliner in me just wants to be proven right.

Well, I do swear that TWW+PH are last, because to me it's apparently the way the developers intend it. And since single timelines have been invalid ever since TWW came out, one might as well say, "I'd like to push through with my single-Link timeline".

The premise has to do with time travel. My theory here is that everything Link does different i.e. closing the door of time and telling Zelda about Ganondorf, each creates the split. maybe a different graph works better.
Am I making sense here? Do I need to explain more? or are you confused on a different point?

You mean that the second split is not triggered by another time-splitting event, but happens just as arbitrarily as in my timeline, based on which decision Link makes (to tell Zelda, or not)? I approve of that, although we'll have to examine further how it plays out with ALttP in the child timeline. Probably not bad at all.

btw, as for the "Ganon being turned to stone" thing:

1) Aonuma has said that that was just to pass the censors;
2) PH ignores it and simply says that he died.

Wow, that's news to me! I'm interested in that interview, can you link it?

[Person]

PH just says that he dies, but PH also just shows his silhouette in the opening. It kind of just uses TWW to explain why Link and Tetra are together. Anyway, but doesn't being turned to stone mean that he dies as well? The only thing significant about him beign turned to stone is that the Master Sword is stuck in his head, and it's in a pedestal in all of the other games. That's one of the reasons why I think that the old games can't come after PH.

[CID Farwin]

Even if that would work - Nintendo's intention was 2003 and still, that Hyrule be gone from TWW's timeline. What with developing innovative Zelda games in the future. I think PH might be just the beginning of "no Hyrule, no Ganondorf".

YES! I'm not saying I'm sick of the Ganon/Triforce thing, They can just take a break for a while and just do a few other things. They've established *counts* NINE? Links, they can do all sorts of stuff outside of Hyrule. And a few spins I've come up that would be cool:
-someone that's NOT Ganon/dorf goes for the Triforce.
-The Triforce comes into play someplace other than Hyrule.
-someone worse than Ganon shows up
--and you end up teaming up with him(Ganon)!
-a combination of what these two remind you of. (THAT would be WIERD!)

You mean that the second split is not triggered by another time-splitting event, but happens just as arbitrarily as in my timeline, based on which decision Link makes (to tell Zelda, or not)? I approve of that, although we'll have to examine further how it plays out with ALttP in the child timeline. Probably not bad at all.

It is just as arbitrary, it just solves every problem that I had with yours. As far as I can tell, it matches up with the IW story, and the IW is even OoT!(though not as completely as in yours.)

Wow, that's news to me! I'm interested in that interview, can you link it?

Yes, do link it. My brother brought up an interesting point: Anyone can just SAY " well Aounuma said..."

Edited by CID Farwin, 21 July 2007 - 05:20 PM.

[LionHarted]

Nintendo's intention was 2003 and still, that Hyrule be gone from TWW's timeline.

And you're perfectly qualified to make this statement, of course?

[Jumbie]

-someone worse than Ganon shows up
--and you end up teaming up with him(Ganon)!

That is what we expected of TP... But it turned out the boring other way round.

-a combination of what these two remind you of. (THAT would be WIERD!)

I don't understand the grey icon. Is that a tank with a dog's head?

It is just as arbitrary, it just solves every problem that I had with yours. As far as I can tell, it matches up with the IW story, and the IW is even OoT!(though not as completely as in yours.)

Indeed, ALttP in a child timeline isn't bad. If it hadn't been for TP's story, that's what I'd still be arguing for.
So it would come to pass that the Mirror Sages don't try to execute Ganondorf, but that he turns into Ganon and is fought by the Knights, then sealed in the Dark World? Maybe that's the way to go...

My brother brought up an interesting point: Anyone can just SAY " well Aounuma said..."

True. I usually only bring up those quotes that anyone is supposed to know, just as reminders. And I guess I'd be able to back them up.
But the quote LionHarted mentioned must be a fairly new one... I've read some Aonuma interviews recently, but not that one.

And you're perfectly qualified to make this statement, of course?

I only accepted the KoRL's will, unlike many others that still don't. Already before TP came out I knew that the split timeline was valid. It was obvious from the games, while others, you included, desperately tried to disprove it. In vain.
The thing is that the split timeline was not cemented only by Aonuma's 2006 statement. It's always been valid since TWW. Single timelines were not "an option", they were just an attempt to twist the games into a seemingly more enjoyable continuity. But I never saw anything enjoyable in destroying the OoT-ALttP connection. Still don't, never will. For every game that seems to contradict this established connection, I'll just open another alternate timeline, as seems to be what the devs have in mind.

[LionHarted]

I only accepted the KoRL's will, unlike many others that still don't. Already before TP came out I knew that the split timeline was valid. It was obvious from the games, while others, you included, desperately tried to disprove it. In vain.

I only look at the hundreds of flood myths upon which TWW's was based, and in the end see that none of them resulted in a permanent deluge that covered the entire world except a few scant mountaintops. Reasonably, I think I can say that the TWW legend mimics the real myths in this way as well, king's wishes or no king's wishes.

It had infinitely less to do with the split timeline than it did the relationship between Adult OoT and ALttP (through the sealing of the Sacred Realm) and the relationship between Adult OoT and TWW (through the Ganon conflicts), and that these two ought to, in theory, be able to coexist. FSA removed the "Ganon is dead in the end of TWW" inconsistency by giving us a new Ganon to work with. All that's left is for the flood to be subsided, as most/all divine flood inevitably are.

Edited by LionHarted, 22 July 2007 - 11:30 AM.

[Showsni]

I don't understand the grey icon. Is that a tank with a dog's head?

It's K9!

[Alastair]

I only look at the hundreds of flood myths upon which TWW's was based, and in the end see that none of them resulted in a permanent deluge that covered the entire world except a few scant mountaintops. Reasonably, I think I can say that the TWW legend mimics the real myths in this way as well, king's wishes or no king's wishes.

To me this seems a very odd assumption to make. I find it far more plausable that the games designers wanted to set a Zelda game on a vast ocean, and then considered how plotwise that ocean came to exist. It looks like you are arguing that the storyline (based upon flood myths common to many different cultures) was decided on first, and then the designers found that this plot necessitated the game to be played on a huge ocean. Obviously without communicating with the designers it is impossible to know for sure.

[Jumbie]

I only look at the hundreds of flood myths upon which TWW's was based, and in the end see that none of them resulted in a permanent deluge that covered the entire world except a few scant mountaintops. Reasonably, I think I can say that the TWW legend mimics the real myths in this way as well, king's wishes or no king's wishes.

Or alternatively, you might just look at the movie Waterworld.

It's K9!

Ewww, I made the huge mistake of googling K9...!
...well, and I don't know Doctor Who anyway.

[LionHarted]

Alastair, I was saying that all we have to go by as to the flood's supreme end result are the other flood myths recorded in real history. In either case, we know that it must have been designed to explain how the ocean they wanted to include in these games got there.

[Arturo]

ALL. THE. REAL. MYTHS. RESULT. IN. UN-FLOODING. BECAUSE. THE. PRESENT. WORLD. IS. NOT. FLOODED.

And show the interview.

[LionHarted]

ALL. THE. REAL. MYTHS. RESULT. IN. UN-FLOODING. BECAUSE. THE. PRESENT. WORLD. IS. NOT. FLOODED.

And the Hyrulean flood myth ought to be the same, because the later games have a world that is not flooded, yes?

[MikePetersSucks]

And the Hyrulean flood myth ought to be the same, because the later games have a world that is not flooded, yes?

Who says? TWW/PH could be at the end of a timeline.

[LionHarted]

TWW/PH could be at the end of a timeline.

They very well could be.

It would make for a rather pathetic little timeline, though, wouldn't it?

[Person]

It's not pathetic if you say that the new continuity would continue after PH, now would it?
Besides, TWW was released 4 years ago. Not much time to establish a whole continuity around it.

[LionHarted]

It's not pathetic if you say that the new continuity would continue after PH, now would it?
Besides, TWW was released 4 years ago. Not much time to establish a whole continuity around it.

There are two fairly new games that could have whole continuities established around them.

Either one could conceivably eventually connect to ALttP.

[Person]

Except that if you beleive that OoT is the Imprisoning War, it has to come directly after OoT. ALttP does not do that. It also has no connections to TWW, and neither does the Four Swords trilogy. Since the ending of TWW does away with the Triforce, Ganon, the king, and the Master Sword, it seems that the developers were attemping to end the Triforce Saga once and for all in the TWW continuity. The old story could still take continue in the TP continuity.

Edited by Person, 23 July 2007 - 04:30 PM.

[LionHarted]

Except that if you beleive that OoT is the Imprisoning War, it has to come directly after OoT.

Why?

Since the ending of TWW does away with the Triforce, Ganon, the king, and the Master Sword, it seems that the developers were attemping to end the Triforce Saga once and for all in the TWW continuity. The old story could still take continue in the TP continuity.

Lots of games complete the Triforce.
Lots of games kill Ganon.
Lots of games kill the king.
The only issue, really, is the Master Sword.

[Person]

The Triforce is united, and then promptly buried under a gadzillion tons of water. In all the other games, it's united and given to the heroes for safekeeping. Besides, placing ALttP after TWW does not account for how the Master Sword changed from being stuck inside Ganon's head to being back in its old pedestal. If we put ALttP after TP, we have the Master Sword back in its old pedestal in the Lost Woods and there are no plot holes in that regard.

As for the IW, the game says that Ganon is stuck inside the SR and hasn't been able to get out since the IW. Can't gloss over that.

[CID Farwin]

Ewww, I made the huge mistake of googling K9...! ohmy.gif
...well, and I don't know Doctor Who anyway.

Sorry, Jumbie. They just don't have a TARDIS emoticon. And that's for Doctor Who fans anyway.

That is what we expected of TP... But it turned out the boring other way round. sad.gif

Yes, what I was hoping for with TP. Ganondorf's Evil-ness totally makes up for it, though.

The Triforce is united, and then promptly buried under a gadzillion tons of water.

I was under the impression that it zoomed off.

If we put ALttP after TP, we have the Master Sword back in its old pedestal in the Lost Woods and there are no plot holes in that regard.

In a pedestal in the Lost woods, yes. It's old pedestal? Debatable.

I guess this is as good of a time as any to break out my new theory.

Theory #3

This theory uses the same timeline as Theory #1 with the exception of the addition of FS/FSA after ALttP. The difference between the two theories has to do with Ganondorf breaking out of the Sacred Realm in TWW. Perhaps in order to escape he had to leave part of his power behind(as with the seal in TWW.) The part that he left behind is the most Evil part of himself. This evil then morphs into(or already is) Ganon. Ganondorf is killed in TWW, and Ganon stays in the Sacred Realm from the Imprisoning War/OoT until ALttP, where he is also killed. FSA comes along where Ganondorf is reincarnated, and becomes "the ancient demon reborn," Ganon.

Think about it. Ganondorf seems to be "nicer" in TWW, and he's shown proficiency at getting around seals by leaving some of his power behind. And there's no mention of the Sacred Realm at all. At the end of TWW the triforce goes zooming off to the Sacred Realm, where Ganon gets it, but still can't get out.

What does everybody think?

Edited by CID Farwin, 24 July 2007 - 01:02 PM.

[Jumbie]

Alastair, I was saying that all we have to go by as to the flood's supreme end result are the other flood myths recorded in real history.

To repeat myself: Look at the movie Waterworld. And go by that.

And the Hyrulean flood myth ought to be the same, because the later games have a world that is not flooded, yes?

No, because those games take place in a world that was NEVER flooded.
Before 2003 there was no flood in Zelda, so why can't you simply let the old games take place in a world that was never flooded?!

They very well could be.

It would make for a rather pathetic little timeline, though, wouldn't it?

So what?! It's been accepted by split timeliners that way ever since TWW came out.
And what about *your* pathetic little timeline of "Child OoT > MM > TP > End", which you were at least going by at some point?
Or even before TP, your "Child OoT > MM > End" timeline?

As Person said, the TWW+PH timeline has room to grow, while the devs might just let the pre-2003 games rest in their own finalized timeline.

[Person]

To me, it seems, TWW and TP were both meant to tie up the OoT story, as MM wasn't really a sequel. Now that the OoT story arc is done, the devs can continue the TWW arc, which they are doing with PH. Zelda Wii will most likely be a sequel to TP, so that could be problematic.

[LionHarted]

No, because those games take place in a world that was NEVER flooded.

Hence the giant squid-shaped recess in ALttP's desert.

As Person said, the TWW+PH timeline has room to grow, while the devs might just let the pre-2003 games rest in their own finalized timeline.

The TP line has room to grow, as well, you know.

[Arturo]

No, because those games take place in a world that was NEVER flooded.

Hence the giant squid-shaped recess in ALttP's desert.

Obviously, in 1991 the developers put that because they knew Hyrule would be flooded in 2002.

Edited by Arturo, 25 July 2007 - 06:25 AM.

[LionHarted]

Obviously, in 1991 the developers put that because they knew Hyrule would be flooded in 2002.

Obviously, Nintendo drew the Hyrule origin story from real-life myths. No reason why they couldn't have already thought that Hyrule would have a flood myth to go along with its creation myth, even if they hadn't written it yet.

Remember that Miyamoto thought TWW was first for the longest time.