121 replies to this topic

[Person]

The Triforce in LoZ and AoL ws portrayed as a physical golden triangle that you carried around with you. In ALttP, it's very much the same thing. However, in the 3D games, we have the Triforce become invisible and dwell inside its bearer, only coming out when the Triforce in united.

What's going on here?

[MikePetersSucks]

As TWW shows, you can carry around the Triforce physically, but it could vanish into you when the Goddesses decide, such as if you try and use it. In LOZ and AOL, they're physically carried around because they're probably not even actually used, or something to that effect.

Bah, I can't word it well, but there's no inconsistency or anything.

[SOAP]

It could also be, being that LoZ and Aol are the first two games in the series, the rules that govern the Triforce weren't all that defined yet. There were golden triangles and gathering all three allows you to make a wish. That was basically the gist of it. Now we know individual pieces can be shattered, carried around, dwell inside people, turned into jewelry, change sizes, and whole bunch of other stuff.

[Showsni]

The Triforce of Courage has been invisibly dwelling within Link since AoL, so nothing's really changed.

[MikePetersSucks]

^ Proof, Showsni? I don't remember that.

[Fyxe]

There's no proof, I've played Zelda II and nothing of the sort occurs.

[Showsni]

Not in the game, I mean official intent. Look at the comic books, for instance. It's clear that the intent is for the ToC to be inside Link. Possibly this is where they get the idea for OoT from...

[Fyxe]

Comic books? I'm not aware of any Zelda II comics. Certainly not released at the time Zelda II was first around.

Besides, the Triforce of Courage is shown quite clearly before and after you fight Dark Link as a physical object within the Great Palace, which is kind of the point.

Edited by Fyxe, 03 July 2007 - 07:14 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

The Valiant comic books claimed that the Triforce of Courage was within Link's heart. While this is disturbingly similar to what happens in OoT, as Fyxe said it, the whole point in AoL is to get to the great palace since the toC has been sealed there and when we do we certainly see it rest atop a pillar, right before the final battle.

[Person]

But the Valaint comic books are non-canonical. Even they are inconsistent in their portrayal of the Triforce. In one issue, we have the Triforce as a golden triangle being physically carried around, and in the next we have the Triforce as a blue pyramid inside the castle. The early years of Zelda were confusing in regards to the mythos, but ALttP and OoT appear to have united the "eastern" and "western" aspects of the series.

At least it's not as confusing as the differences between the "eastern" and "western" Sonic the Hedgehog continuities, and to a lesser extent, the Mario series.

In short, I don't think that we should use any non-canonical American source as "creator intent" (except in obvious cases, such as Wolf Link appearing in the ALttP comic waaay back in 1992).

Edited by Person, 03 July 2007 - 09:38 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

If I remember correctly, in the comics each Triforce was a different color than the other two?

[Person]

Yeah. Power was red, Wisdom was blue, and Courage was green. Biggest source for the "each Triforce has a color" fanon theory.

[Duke Serkol]

But the Valaint comic books are non-canonical.

I figured that was implied clearly enough in my post since I said they contradict the game's story.

and to a lesser extent, the Mario series.

You referring to the name changes? Or something more? (Besides of course the Mario2 controversy but that's a thing of the past)

In short, I don't think that we should use any non-canonical American source as "creator intent" (except in obvious cases, such as Wolf Link appearing in the ALttP comic waaay back in 1992).

The ALttP "comic" was made by a famous mangaka.

[Fyxe]

You referring to the name changes? Or something more? (Besides of course the Mario2 controversy but that's a thing of the past)

I expect he's referring to the Mario cartoons and the whole 'Mario is from Brooklyn' thing. Then again, I think that is still possibly canon, given his Italian accent. Unless in Japan he's meant to be just from Italy? He wasn't born there though and he doesn't live there now in either Brooklyn or Italy's case.

There continues to be issues about Birdo and Vivian's genders in the Mario games though. They're both boys, but Birdo is referred to as both a girl and a boy depending on the game you play, and Vivian is referred to as a girl despite being a boy (which is why his 'Infatuate' move 'confuses' enemies).

[SOAP]

I think NoA is pretending the Mario cartoons never happened. Just like they're pretending gay people and cross-dressers don't exist.

[TheAvengerLever]

There's a difference between,

"It's-a-me! Mario!"

And

"I'm Mario Mario, this is my bruddah, Luigi Mario."

*sappy smile from John Leguizamo*

Nobody from Brooklyn really has an Italian accent, per say.

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 04 July 2007 - 01:39 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

There continues to be issues about Birdo and Vivian's genders in the Mario games though. They're both boys, but Birdo is referred to as both a girl and a boy depending on the game you play, and Vivian is referred to as a girl despite being a boy (which is why his 'Infatuate' move 'confuses' enemies).

Whereas Vivian is definitely a boy, I think the point about Birdo was always that, regardless of gender, it is a strange dinosaur, not a girl as (the manual says) it believes itself to be.
But that could just be me.

[Fyxe]

Nope, as the original manual states, it's a boy who thinks he's a girl. That's what I thought it said.

Strange dinosaurs still have genders y'know, no matter how confused they may be. XP

With the exception of Yoshi. Who knows what bloody gender he is.

[Showsni]

Yes, they're non canon, but they show that the idea for the triforce being able to dwell inside someone was around since 1990. I'm not saying that what occurs in them is true in the Zelda universe; just that the idea for a triforce inside someone is quite old. It was also used in the Nintendo Adventure Books, published about the time of ALttP, where again the ToC is inside Link. Quite possibly they inspired OoT.

Of course, in the actual AoL the ToC is sealed in the Great Palace, and I'd never argue against that.

The manual said: "He thinks he is a girl and he spits eggs from his mouth. He'd rather be called 'Birdetta.'" In Japanese, his name is Catherine and he'd rather be called Cathy. Does being localised to change gender actually change the gender in your opinion? I.e. is the American Vivian female and the Japanese male, or is Vivian male in both?

[Fyxe]

I think he's male in both, because the humour makes a hell of a lot more sense that way. They changed some of the dialogue, but some of it doesn't sit well with what is actually going on. Goombella makes some comments that seem a little out of place, as does Beldam, comments that make much more sense knowing that Vivian is a boy.

Similarly, the jokes about Birdo in the Mario & Luigi script make a lot more sense if you know Birdo's actually male.

It depends if you see the canons as seperate or not. I see the Japanese canon as superior. There are some cases when English canon can affect the Japanese canon, but this is rare and usually over time the English canon becomes more in-line with the Japanese (examples: virtually every video game series ever). So yes, there's two canons, but one of them is always somewhat flawed.

Another example of gender-bending character designs that were messed with being Poison from Final Fight (incidentally, my latest avatar image), the boy who's transgendered who was cut out of the original games altogether and is referred to as female in many of the newer games (like the newer Street Fighter games) despite being a 'futanari' in the Japanese canon.

Thank goodness Bridget from Guilty Gear wasn't messed around with in the localisation.

None of these characters are necessarily gay at all. The gay stereotype in Japan is very different from the one over here. Feminine guys aren't automatically gay at all.

Edited by Fyxe, 04 July 2007 - 07:43 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Wow, I see a thread about the triforce and it ends up with Birdo, Vivian, and Yoshi. Sheesh.

With the exception of Yoshi. Who knows what bloody gender he is.

and Bowser for that matter. I think I remember in Super Mario World that he laid eggs, but then again...*trails off*
anyway.

Yeah. Power was red, Wisdom was blue, and Courage was green. Biggest source for the "each Triforce has a color" fanon theory.

this is interesting.
red=power=Din
blue=wisdom=Nayru
green=courage=Farore
Looks like Nintendo found a way to keep the colors, yet have the triforce as just gold.
At least you can't say they're out of touch.

addressing the origional point:

The Triforce in LoZ and AoL ws portrayed as a physical golden triangle that you carried around with you. In ALttP, it's very much the same thing. However, in the 3D games, we have the Triforce become invisible and dwell inside its bearer, only coming out when the Triforce in united.

What's going on here?

but, it's both.

[MikePetersSucks]

and Bowser for that matter. I think I remember in Super Mario World that he laid eggs, but then again...*trails off*

When the HELL does he do that? I think you're wrong there.

[TheAvengerLever]

He was talking about Yoshi.

[Person]

I think that all of the funky dinosaurs in the Mario universe are asexual and reproduce asexually. Hence, Birdo spits its eggs out of its mouth and Yoshi chucks them as weapons.

Wait a minute...

Is Yohi killing his unborn offspring?

But aside from that, we have never seen a female Yoshi or a "male" Birdo, so I suppose that they don't. Nintendo Would've invented Yoshi's girlfriend as an add-on character for Mario Party 10,000 by now if it were true.


Anyway, back to the subject:

I found it weird that Link was able to touch the ToP in LoZ but didn't become its bearer.

[CID Farwin]

He was talking about Yoshi.

no, I was talking about bowser. I thought I remembered something about koopa eggs, but I think I was THINKING about yoshi and his imprisoned friends.

Is Yohi killing his unborn offspring?

I guess that makes Nintendo Pro-choice *scratches head.*

[MikePetersSucks]

Is Yohi killing his unborn offspring?

Are the eggs fertilized?

Besides, we've seen in the canon that eggs that can hatch into actual Yoshi are MUCH bigger.

I found it weird that Link was able to touch the ToP in LoZ but didn't become its bearer.

You don't become it's bearer by touching it, you need to USE it.

[Duke Serkol]

this is interesting.
red=power=Din
blue=wisdom=Nayru
green=courage=Farore
Looks like Nintendo found a way to keep the colors, yet have the triforce as just gold.
At least you can't say they're out of touch.

It's just too bad that in ALttP red and blue were switched around

You don't become it's bearer by touching it, you need to USE it.

Where do you get that from?

[Fyxe]

It's just too bad that in ALttP red and blue were switched around

Where the goddesses compared to colours in ALttP? I don't remember that at all.

[Duke Serkol]

Not the Goddess themselves, but their attributes were, through the pendants. Basically in ALttP we have the pendant of power being blue and that of wisdom red. Oy.

[GuardianNinja]

Oh yea! I remember that ^ not such a good idea but still one of the best games ever.