Jump to content

IPBoard Styles©Fisana

Photo

Agahnim


  • Please log in to reply
135 replies to this topic

#61 MikePetersSucks

MikePetersSucks

    Actual Japanese Person

  • ZL Staff
  • 4,174 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 24 June 2007 - 03:21 PM

the Twilight Realm is a retcon of the Dark World

I disagree.

Both dimensions are bathed in a golden light (sunset)


Yes, but in the Dark World's case it's explictly stated to becoming from the Triforce, which isn't present in the Twilight Realm.

Both dimensions can change the forms of their inhabitants (spirits or animals or what have you)

The Dark World changes you into a form reflecting your heart. The Twilight Realm turns people of the light into spirits because they don't belong.

Both dimensions are impossible to escape from without a Mirror


Yea, so? They're two different mirrors.

It's said in ALttP that when Ganondorf FINALLY managed to get the entire Triforce and wished for the world, 'that wish changed the Golden Land into the Dark World' i.e. the Goddesses possibly granted his wish by giving him A world, namely the Twilight Realm

The Twilight Realm didn't change when Ganon entered it, and he never seized the Triforce there.

the Dark World is a shadowy version of Hyrule in which you can't interact with people in the Light World, this also happens when Zant expands the Twilight into Hyrule


What happens in the Light World effects the Dark World and vice versa. The same cannot be saidabout Hyrule and the Twilight Realm, which have to occupy the same timespace to interact.

both dimensions serve as prisons for greedy people


Yea, so? One is the realm of the Triforce and the other was a prison to keep people AWAY from it.

With your kind of logic, I can say that Hyrule and Termina are the same place.

#62 Evilsbane

Evilsbane

    Scout

  • Members
  • 190 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 24 June 2007 - 05:33 PM

the Twilight Realm is a retcon of the Dark World

I disagree.

I respect that

Both dimensions are bathed in a golden light (sunset)


Yes, but in the Dark World's case it's explictly stated to becoming from the Triforce, which isn't present in the Twilight Realm.

It isn't in the Twilight Realm at the time of TP, anyway.

Both dimensions can change the forms of their inhabitants (spirits or animals or what have you)

The Dark World changes you into a form reflecting your heart. The Twilight Realm turns people of the light into spirits because they don't belong.

Not everyone. Link got changed into a form reflecting his heart. And the Twili were newcomers at one stage also, but somehow they didn't become spirits

Both dimensions are impossible to escape from without a Mirror


Yea, so? They're two different mirrors.

1- Maybe, maybe not and 2- Why does that make a huge difference? You still need a mirror to escape either one

It's said in ALttP that when Ganondorf FINALLY managed to get the entire Triforce and wished for the world, 'that wish changed the Golden Land into the Dark World' i.e. the Goddesses possibly granted his wish by giving him A world, namely the Twilight Realm

The Twilight Realm didn't change when Ganon entered it, and he never seized the Triforce there.

No, this is probably where you're misunderstanding me. Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm and seized the entire Triforce, right? ALttP says so. But in no game have we ever seen Ganon getting the entire Triforce, so the event I'm referring to is not in OoT. Maybe it's later or something when he finally manages to get the whole thing, but ALttP tells us that he does indeed get the whole thing at some stage. What I'm saying is that when he wished upon it, the Sacred Realm and Twilight Realm were merged, seeing as A: the Twilight Realm has no exit without the Mirror of Twilight, explaining how Ganon could get in but suddenly couldn't get out, B: with the Triforce in evil hands, it no longer served any purpose to keep it away from the Twilight Realm and C: Ganondorf wished for 'the world' but since he didn't get Hyrule it's logical to conclude that his wish granted him ANOTHER world. He didn't specify which world he wanted, and the Goddesses may have thought it fitting to remind Ganon of what happened to the last group that thought they could steal the Triforce of the Gods.

the Dark World is a shadowy version of Hyrule in which you can't interact with people in the Light World, this also happens when Zant expands the Twilight into Hyrule


What happens in the Light World effects the Dark World and vice versa. The same cannot be saidabout Hyrule and the Twilight Realm, which have to occupy the same timespace to interact.

But they DID occupy that same timespace in TP, which is what I'm saying. Wolf Link was able to kill Dark Insects that were plaguing the Light World, for example, and he was able to flood Lake Hylia from inside the Twilight. Ganon wished for Hyrule and got its shadow - 'the stronger the wish, the more powerful the Triforce's expression of that wish'

both dimensions serve as prisons for greedy people


Yea, so? One is the realm of the Triforce and the other was a prison to keep people AWAY from it.

With your kind of logic, I can say that Hyrule and Termina are the same place.

No, One USED to be the Realm of the Triforce until Ganon got it, and one USED to keep people away from the Triforce until it fell into evil hands anyway, at which point there was no point keeping them separate anymore. However, no matter whether people had the Triforce (in whole or in part) or not, neither realm was escapable without a particular mirror. And so giving Ganon a world he couldn't escape from, with even the example of the Twili having served as a warning for him (which he ignored) serves as a cosmic irony, - a Divine Prank, if you will. Ganon scoffs at the pitiful magic of the Twili and humiliates himself by walking into the exact same trap, thinking that he is different; more than a match for the Gods.

#63 MikePetersSucks

MikePetersSucks

    Actual Japanese Person

  • ZL Staff
  • 4,174 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 24 June 2007 - 11:31 PM

It isn't in the Twilight Realm at the time of TP, anyway.

Exactly my point. If the Twilight Realm and the Dark World were the same realm, then the Twilight Realm shouldn't have a golden sunset in the Triforce's absence.

Not everyone. Link got changed into a form reflecting his heart. And the Twili were newcomers at one stage also, but somehow they didn't become spirits


Link is explictly stated to take the form of a wolf because of the Triforce of Courage and the fact that it was his destiny. There's nothing stating it was the form reflecting in his heart. As for the Twili, they were specifically sealed there by the Goddesses, and it's debateable that they were even of the Light like other Hyruleans in the first place.

1- Maybe, maybe not and 2- Why does that make a huge difference? You still need a mirror to escape either one

1) They're different mirrors. That's a fact. 2) It shouldn't matter. There's more than one magic mirror in the universe, and more than one sealed, dark dimension, presumably. With YOUR logic, all Links and all Zeldas and all Malons and so forth are the same.

No, this is probably where you're misunderstanding me. Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm and seized the entire Triforce, right? ALttP says so. But in no game have we ever seen Ganon getting the entire Triforce, so the event I'm referring to is not in OoT. Maybe it's later or something when he finally manages to get the whole thing, but ALttP tells us that he does indeed get the whole thing at some stage. What I'm saying is that when he wished upon it, the Sacred Realm and Twilight Realm were merged, seeing as A: the Twilight Realm has no exit without the Mirror of Twilight, explaining how Ganon could get in but suddenly couldn't get out, B: with the Triforce in evil hands, it no longer served any purpose to keep it away from the Twilight Realm and C: Ganondorf wished for 'the world' but since he didn't get Hyrule it's logical to conclude that his wish granted him ANOTHER world. He didn't specify which world he wanted, and the Goddesses may have thought it fitting to remind Ganon of what happened to the last group that thought they could steal the Triforce of the Gods.


Well fine. In that case, the absence of the Twili and Ockham's Razor both say you're wrong. You lose.

But they DID occupy that same timespace in TP, which is what I'm saying. Wolf Link was able to kill Dark Insects that were plaguing the Light World, for example, and he was able to flood Lake Hylia from inside the Twilight. Ganon wished for Hyrule and got its shadow - 'the stronger the wish, the more powerful the Triforce's expression of that wish'

*wooooooooooosh* That was my point going over your head. I know they occupied the same timespace. Which is why it can't be the Dark World because the Dark World doesn't need to merge with the Light World to interact with it. The Twilight Realm, however, DOES.

No, One USED to be the Realm of the Triforce until Ganon got it, and one USED to keep people away from the Triforce until it fell into evil hands anyway, at which point there was no point keeping them separate anymore. However, no matter whether people had the Triforce (in whole or in part) or not, neither realm was escapable without a particular mirror. And so giving Ganon a world he couldn't escape from, with even the example of the Twili having served as a warning for him (which he ignored) serves as a cosmic irony, - a Divine Prank, if you will. Ganon scoffs at the pitiful magic of the Twili and humiliates himself by walking into the exact same trap, thinking that he is different; more than a match for the Gods.


There's no instance in the canon of worlds merging in the way you're suggesting, not even in the context of Twilight Princess. And by your logic, why keep any worlds seperate if they "don't need to be?" Let's just fucking throw them all together. No.

Your theory doesn't work for multitudes of reasons. LTTP explictly states that the Sacred Realm changes form, not merges with other worlds. Ganon's wish caused the Sacred Realm to become the Dark World so that the only world he'd have was one of his own creation.

You lose. But for your consolation prize, here's "Debating Skills: The HOME Game."

#64 Evilsbane

Evilsbane

    Scout

  • Members
  • 190 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 25 June 2007 - 07:29 AM

You lose. But for your consolation prize, here's "Debating Skills: The HOME Game."

Is that the one where the winner is the first person to mock the other's opinion and claim victory by their own arbitration? No thanks, I don't like that game. I can tell you do, though.

I won't quote verything you said but will instead bullet-point

1- the golden sky is something they have in common, and you claim it's coincidence. Fair enough, but if you look at the picture in ALttP's manual, the Dark World looks almost exactly like the Twilight Realm. I have explained my position on how the Triforce came to be there eventually

2- How is it a fact? And I'm not saying it's the same mirror either, so your Link/Zelda/Malon jibe is pretty but pointless. I'm just saying that the dimension can only be escaped through the use of a mirror. If you want to say that this is another similarity they have that is mere coincidence, that's fine. But don't mock me for saying that maybe it might mean they're the same. Whether it's likely or not, it is possible

3- I don't think you understand the implications of Ockham's Razor. If I were to think of a number between 1 and 1,000,000, your interpretation of the Razor would mean that my number would have to be 1 and any theory to the contrary would be utterly wrong.

4- How do you know that? Exactly what is the nature of the Dark World, praytell? Nothing in OoT gives the impression that doing things in the Hyrule will change the landscape of the Sacred Realm, so I'd like to know what you're basing your scorn of my opinion on.

5- You also seem to use the word 'explicitly' like it means anything. I could say that I had breakfast this morning, in which case I would have 'explicitly' said that I had breakfast. But what did I have for breakfast? I didn't say. And so just because ALttP says that the Sacred Realm changed into the Dark World, that doesn't mean that we've been given enough information in that one statement to start deciding exactly how that came to be.

#65 MikePetersSucks

MikePetersSucks

    Actual Japanese Person

  • ZL Staff
  • 4,174 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 25 June 2007 - 01:02 PM

1- the golden sky is something they have in common, and you claim it's coincidence. Fair enough, but if you look at the picture in ALttP's manual, the Dark World looks almost exactly like the Twilight Realm. I have explained my position on how the Triforce came to be there eventually

Yes, and that exact same manual says that the sky is golden because of the Triforce's glow, which the Twilight Realm lacks.

2- How is it a fact? And I'm not saying it's the same mirror either, so your Link/Zelda/Malon jibe is pretty but pointless. I'm just saying that the dimension can only be escaped through the use of a mirror. If you want to say that this is another similarity they have that is mere coincidence, that's fine. But don't mock me for saying that maybe it might mean they're the same. Whether it's likely or not, it is possible


If you're talking about the wolf thing, it's obvious that Link's wolf transformation is because of his Triforce piece because it GLOWS every time he uses it, and Midna explictly states that a hero with the form of a wolf was prophecized. Ockham's razor thus supports that Link's heart is not a factor.

3- I don't think you understand the implications of Ockham's Razor. If I were to think of a number between 1 and 1,000,000, your interpretation of the Razor would mean that my number would have to be 1 and any theory to the contrary would be utterly wrong.

You're misunderstanding what I mean. It's against Ockham's Razor because it's of the two theories, the two realms being seperate and unrelated requires less assumptions.

4- How do you know that? Exactly what is the nature of the Dark World, praytell? Nothing in OoT gives the impression that doing things in the Hyrule will change the landscape of the Sacred Realm, so I'd like to know what you're basing your scorn of my opinion on.


ACTUALLY, there is. There are puzzles in the game where effecting the Light World directly effects the Dark World and vice versa.

5- You also seem to use the word 'explicitly' like it means anything. I could say that I had breakfast this morning, in which case I would have 'explicitly' said that I had breakfast. But what did I have for breakfast? I didn't say. And so just because ALttP says that the Sacred Realm changed into the Dark World, that doesn't mean that we've been given enough information in that one statement to start deciding exactly how that came to be.


Yes, we actually are given enough information. OOT and LTTP both state that the Sacred Realm is morphic, more or less a void that warps and shapes according to the hearts of those who enter, and/or those who gain the Triforce. Nowhere does that imply the Sacred Realm merges with other worlds to accomplish that, so Ockham's Razor is against you.

#66 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 25 June 2007 - 02:36 PM

Yes, but in the Dark World's case it's explictly stated to becoming from the Triforce, which isn't present in the Twilight Realm.


Ganondorf does so have the Triforce of Power in the Twilight Realm.
Of course, if you're postulating Twilight Realm = Sacred Realm = Dark World, the Triforce was present in the Twilight Realm anyway.

The Dark World changes you into a form reflecting your heart. The Twilight Realm turns people of the light into spirits because they don't belong.

1) The Twilight (spreading across Hyrule thanks to Zant) transforms people into spirits.
2) The dark magic of Ganondorf transforms Link into a form reflecting his heart.

Yea, so? They're two different mirrors.

Maybe.

The Twilight Realm didn't change when Ganon entered it, and he never seized the Triforce there.

Unless it was the Sacred Realm.

Of course, I agree that this similarity doesn't exist.

One is the realm of the Triforce and the other was a prison to keep people AWAY from it.

If the Triforce was split amongst its chosen bearers, the Twilight would definitely serve as a prison to keep people away from it. ;)

Ockham's razor thus supports that Link's heart is not a factor.

The game says he has a spirit of a divine beast, and that is why he transforms.

Edited by LionHarted, 25 June 2007 - 02:38 PM.


#67 CID Farwin

CID Farwin

    Disciple

  • Members
  • 2,935 posts
  • Location:At the threshold
  • Gender:Male

Posted 25 June 2007 - 08:28 PM

Whohoo! this thread has given me so many ideas and helped me to form ones I was already working on.

1- I'd be more inclined to believe that Agahnim's relationship with Ganon is similar to Zant's:
A: In both games, Ganon was stuck in a dimension he couldn't escape from
B: In both games, he uses his pawn to open the way to Hyrule (Agahnim imprisons the Maidens, Zant expands the Twilight Realm)
C: In both games, you can defeat the pawn but he won't die
D: In both games, the pawn usurps the throne of his ruler
E: In both games, the pawn is initially made out to be the mastermind

This gives me the following IMPRESSIONS:
A: That Zant was inspired by Agahnim, and Agahnim is more or less another pawn
B: That TP is meant to elaborate on several points of ALttP, such as:
C: That the Twilight Realm is a retcon of the Dark World

2- To explain my position on this possible retcon:
A: Both dimensions are bathed in a golden light (sunset)
B: Both dimensions can change the forms of their inhabitants (spirits or animals or what have you)
C: Both dimensions are impossible to escape from without a Mirror
D: It's said in ALttP that when Ganondorf FINALLY managed to get the entire Triforce and wished for the world, 'that wish changed the Golden Land into the Dark World' i.e. the Goddesses possibly granted his wish by giving him A world, namely the Twilight Realm
E: the Dark World is a shadowy version of Hyrule in which you can't interact with people in the Light World, this also happens when Zant expands the Twilight into Hyrule
F: both dimensions serve as prisons for greedy people

3- I still think that the Death Mountain Portal is where Agahnim entered the Dark World, because
A: it's the only portal in the game that has already been uncovered before Link finds it
B: Ganon's Tower is immediately on the other side

How's this for an idea?

TP and ALttP are PARALLEL GAMES. That's what I get from reading this argument. Yes there's also the parallel timelines, and TP is said to happen parallel to TWW, but there's a possibility that they are the same happenings in different timelines. It's also a possibility that they happen in the same timeline, but with OCCAM"S RAZOR
[parenthetical statement]

All things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the most correct.

for those of you who don't know[/parenthetical statement]
the simplest explanation is that since they are parallel games they should be in parallel timelines.

Or at least that's how I see it. You can't argue the fact that at least the games are parallel.

Oh, and here's one to add to the argument.

The dark world and the twilight realm can't be the same place.
1. They work dynamically different.
A. I don't really need to elaborate, since Mike Peters Sucks and LionHarted have already pretty much covered it.

2. This one's a little nit-picky, okay VERY nit-picky, but Twilight and Darkness are different.
A. Twilight happenes right after dusk. Not really light or dark, but sort of a surreal middleground.
II. This might not mean anything, but there has to be a reason why they used 'Twilight Realm'.
B. At the end of TP, Zelda says that 'Light and shadow are two sides of the same coin, the one cannot exist without the other' or something to that extent. This supports the Idea that shadow, which I can only assume she means the twilight realm, isn't darkness, as darkness happens because of a lack of light, whereas shadow happens as a result of light.

Okay, all that really proves is that at the time of TP the Twilight realm and the Dark world are different, but here's the clincher.

3. THE SACRED REALM IS IN TWILIGHT PRINCESS!
Link and Zelda go there right before the horseback battle with Ganondorf. Sure, there can be some debate, but
A. When Ganondorf is charging at Link and Zelda, Zelda prays and they both DISSAPEAR!
II. Ganondorf then rides through the space that they previously occupied.
B. They reappear in a :tri: Golden Land :tri: where the Light Spirits give Zelda the Light Arrows.
C. If that's not the Sacred Realm, then I don't have any idea as to what it could be.

1- the golden sky is something they have in common, and you claim it's coincidence. Fair enough, but if you look at the picture in ALttP's manual, the Dark World looks almost exactly like the Twilight Realm. I have explained my position on how the Triforce came to be there eventually

All that proves is that they used the picture as a basis for that particualr part of the Twilight Realm. A homage if you will. Like all this proves,
Posted Image
is that they might have used that big eye on his chest as a basis for the eye of the Sheikah, and possiblly Aghanim as a basis for Ganondorf.
Wait... wasn't this a thread about Aghanim in the first place?

Agahnim as Ganon's Disguise
Agahnim and Ganon are one and the same. Agahnim was Ganon's disguise in the Light World to avoid detection.


Impossible. If this was the case, there'd be no need for the whole seal breaking. I don't believe in this "only his power was still sealed in the Dark World" thing. Agahnim could just open a gate to the Dark World from Hyrule and let his power seep out.

Open a gate to the dark world... Isn't that what he's essentially doing anyway? Anyway that's what I believe, or at least used to, since it is more likely that it's like Zant in TP

Edited by CID Farwin, 25 June 2007 - 08:30 PM.


#68 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 25 June 2007 - 10:27 PM

"Parallel" just means unconnected, in the TWW case. Or possibly adjacent to, if you're a single-timeline stickler.

THE SACRED REALM IS IN TWILIGHT PRINCESS!
Link and Zelda go there right before the horseback battle with Ganondorf.

While there's really little fact to contest this, it strikes me as odd as a place that was so hard to get into in other games would be entered at the drop of a hat in this one. Of course, the very concept, depiction, and function of world-jumping in Twilight Princess (and ALttP/FSA, while we're at it) sort of baffles me, so I suppose that's to be expected.

However, it's still true that there are no similarities between the Twilight Realm and the Sacred Realm in their history, since necessarily all history related to either one is unique and mentioned in different veins than the other (the Sacred Realm has basically no history in TP; the Twilight has no history in other games). The similarities are in their appearance, function, etc. The Twilight Realm appears as early depictions of the Sacred Realm; the Twilight Realm is used as a prison like the Dark World; both realms have evil tribes (but the Dark World's tribe is never described).

So, really, there are straws to grasp at, but none of them are real storyline straws. For example, Ganondorf wasn't sealed in the Sacred Realm/Dark World by sages before TP, so we can't use that argument.

#69 MikePetersSucks

MikePetersSucks

    Actual Japanese Person

  • ZL Staff
  • 4,174 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 June 2007 - 12:54 AM

Ganondorf does so have the Triforce of Power in the Twilight Realm.
Of course, if you're postulating Twilight Realm = Sacred Realm = Dark World, the Triforce was present in the Twilight Realm anyway.

The entire Triforce is what changes the sky, not a single piece.
That second part makes no fucking sense.

1) The Twilight (spreading across Hyrule thanks to Zant) transforms people into spirits.
2) The dark magic of Ganondorf transforms Link into a form reflecting his heart.


Exactly. Not the same.

Maybe.

There's no maybe about it. They're two different mirrors. Aside from being mirrors and being able to teleport people (In different ways, mind you), they have nothing in common.

If the Triforce was split amongst its chosen bearers, the Twilight would definitely serve as a prison to keep people away from it.


Yes, and this fails because you'v it's already been described as such by referencing a piece of artwork of the Sacred Realm that vaguely resembles the Twilight Realm, even though the Triforce is IN THE SACRED REALM, and according to the storyline of TP, the removal of the Triforce from the Sacred Realm and the sealing of the Twili in the Twilight Realm are centuries apart.

The game says he has a spirit of a divine beast, and that is why he transforms.

And the Triforce mark on his hand glows, and Midna says the coming of a blue-eyed beast was prophecized. It's destiny and/or the Gods that change Link, not the morphic properties of the Twilight Realm.

3. THE SACRED REALM IS IN TWILIGHT PRINCESS!
Link and Zelda go there right before the horseback battle with Ganondorf. Sure, there can be some debate, but
A. When Ganondorf is charging at Link and Zelda, Zelda prays and they both DISSAPEAR!
II. Ganondorf then rides through the space that they previously occupied.
B. They reappear in a admin.gif Golden Land admin.gif where the Light Spirits give Zelda the Light Arrows.
C. If that's not the Sacred Realm, then I don't have any idea as to what it could be.


I say it's only the Sacred Realm as much as the "Sky Scene" in OOT's Ending was, which was never proven either. Can't it just be some wierd in some wierd pocket dimension Zelda conjured or something? (And by the way, the Golden Land had a golden SKY, not a Golden GROUND with a black sky.)

"Parallel" just means unconnected, in the TWW case. Or possibly adjacent to, if you're a single-timeline stickler.


Incorrect. First of all, it's impossible for games to be "Adjacent" in a single timeline. Furthermore, that's not what Parallel means.

"1. extending in the same direction, equidistant at all points, and never converging or diverging: parallel rows of trees.
2. having the same direction, course, nature, or tendency; corresponding; similar; analogous: Canada and the U.S. have many parallel economic interests."

#70 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 26 June 2007 - 08:52 AM

The entire Triforce is what changes the sky, not a single piece.

So when Ganondorf only had a single piece in OoT, and the Sacred Realm transformed, that had nothing to do with the Triforce?

That second part makes no fucking sense.

You'd have to say the Twilight Realm is not the Sacred Realm to say that the Triforce was never there, and therefore was never what transformed it.

Exactly. Not the same.

The dark magic of Ganondorf is present in the Twilight Realm and in the Dark World, though.

Aside from being mirrors and being able to teleport people (In different ways, mind you), they have nothing in common.

These are really the only descriptors of the mirrors, though. And we don't know how the Magic Mirror teleports people, at least, not enough to say "in different ways".
So they're in every way (that we know of) the same.

Yes, and this fails because you'v it's already been described as such by referencing a piece of artwork of the Sacred Realm that vaguely resembles the Twilight Realm, even though the Triforce is IN THE SACRED REALM, and according to the storyline of TP, the removal of the Triforce from the Sacred Realm and the sealing of the Twili in the Twilight Realm are centuries apart.

The storyline of TP is remarkably vague on this issue.

And the Triforce mark on his hand glows, and Midna says the coming of a blue-eyed beast was prophecized. It's destiny and/or the Gods that change Link, not the morphic properties of the Twilight Realm.

"You have...been transformed...by the power...of shadow..."
"What binds him is a different magic than what transformed him when he first passed the curtain of twilight. It is an evil power."

*cough*

Incorrect. First of all, it's impossible for games to be "Adjacent" in a single timeline.

"Adjacent" ; next to, following from, etc.
More or less the second definition.

#71 MikePetersSucks

MikePetersSucks

    Actual Japanese Person

  • ZL Staff
  • 4,174 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 June 2007 - 09:49 AM

So when Ganondorf only had a single piece in OoT, and the Sacred Realm transformed, that had nothing to do with the Triforce?

No, I'm just saying it's the entire Triforce that makes the SKY golden. Keep up.

The dark magic of Ganondorf is present in the Twilight Realm and in the Dark World, though.


And they're present in Hyrule throughout it's history. What else is new?

These are really the only descriptors of the mirrors, though. And we don't know how the Magic Mirror teleports people, at least, not enough to say "in different ways".
So they're in every way (that we know of) the same.

Wrong. The Twilight Mirror is the size of a person, has ornate designs on the glass surface, and is explictly stated to have an evil, corruptive power that Midna decided was too dangerous to keep around. The Magic Mirror is the size of a person's palm, can be easily carried around, and has no danger aside from what could happen if it falls into evil hands.

Furthermore, the Twilight Mirror functions by projecting a portal onto a wall or rock or something, and the Magic Mirror physically transports a person and leaves a portal in their place.

"You have...been transformed...by the power...of shadow..."
"What binds him is a different magic than what transformed him when he first passed the curtain of twilight. It is an evil power."


Right. Instead of being warped by destiny, the Triforce, etcetera, he's been forcibly transformed by one of Zant's evil crystals. So what?

"Adjacent" ; next to, following from, etc.
More or less the second definition.


Well, I always interpreted the timeline as an up/down line, and adjacent doesn't really apply on a vertical axis. But it's a minor point, so who cares?

#72 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 26 June 2007 - 10:07 AM

No, I'm just saying it's the entire Triforce that makes the SKY golden.

Yes. That's what YOU are saying.

I don't recall ever having a source on this.

And they're present in Hyrule throughout it's history. What else is new?

So it is very much "the same."

The Twilight Mirror is the size of a person, has ornate designs on the glass surface, and is explictly stated to have an evil, corruptive power that Midna decided was too dangerous to keep around. The Magic Mirror is the size of a person's palm, can be easily carried around, and has no danger aside from what could happen if it falls into evil hands.

1) We don't know how large the Magic Mirror is. We do know that both are able to be lugged all over Hyrule, though, just like every other oversized load Link has ever had.
2) It never falls into evil hands, so we don't know if there's any danger, do we?

Furthermore, the Twilight Mirror functions by projecting a portal onto a wall or rock or something, and the Magic Mirror physically transports a person and leaves a portal in their place.

Le gasp. New design features were added.

Right. Instead of being warped by destiny, the Triforce, etcetera, he's been forcibly transformed by one of Zant's evil crystals. So what?

1) By Ganondorf's magic.
2) The same thing that tranformed him in ALttP.

Well, I always interpreted the timeline as an up/down line, and adjacent doesn't really apply on a vertical axis. But it's a minor point, so who cares?

Contiguity certainly does apply on vertical axis.

#73 CID Farwin

CID Farwin

    Disciple

  • Members
  • 2,935 posts
  • Location:At the threshold
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 June 2007 - 01:14 PM

I say it's only the Sacred Realm as much as the "Sky Scene" in OOT's Ending was, which was never proven either. Can't it just be some wierd in some wierd pocket dimension Zelda conjured or something?

...I think you can make a logical guess as to what I have to say about the "sky Scene." and Can't it just be the Sacred Realm? isn't that just simpler?

(And by the way, the Golden Land had a golden SKY, not a Golden GROUND with a black sky.)

nevertheless, it is A golden land, so why not THE Golden Land? In TP especially, the obvious answer is usually the right one.
and anyway,

I'm just saying it's the entire Triforce that makes the SKY golden. Keep up.

That's why the sky's black.

While there's really little fact to contest this, it strikes me as odd as a place that was so hard to get into in other games would be entered at the drop of a hat in this one.

Drop of a hat? Hardly. they were transported by, most likely, the Light spirits. Which is most likely whithin their power(especially all four of them.) and anyway, all you have to do in ALttP is climb a mountain and walk into a portal.

So when Ganondorf only had a single piece in OoT, and the Sacred Realm transformed, that had nothing to do with the Triforce?

er, that had everything to do with the triforce. Ganondorf made a wish on the entire triforce, the Sacred realm changed because he had an evil heart, and the Triforce spit because he had an unbalanced heart.

And the Twilight mirror has *similar* functions to the magic mirror, but they can't be the same, because the Twilight mirror was destroyed.

1) By Ganondorf's magic.
2) The same thing that tranformed him in ALttP.

1) no, by Zantondorf's magic.
2) in ALttP it was how the Dark World worked, not neccecarily put thay way by Ganon.

(Zantondorf--hm--that would have been one sweet boss fight.)

#74 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 26 June 2007 - 03:20 PM

Drop of a hat? Hardly. they were transported by, most likely, the Light spirits. Which is most likely whithin their power(especially all four of them.) and anyway, all you have to do in ALttP is climb a mountain and walk into a portal.

So why did they bother gathering the Spiritual Stones and the Ocarina in OoT, if the Light Spirits could have just taken them there? That would undoubtedly have been foolproof.

And I was of the impression that the seal on the realm had begun to weaken by the time ALttP took place, before which it had been WIDE open.


er, that had everything to do with the triforce. Ganondorf made a wish on the entire triforce, the Sacred realm changed because he had an evil heart, and the Triforce spit because he had an unbalanced heart.

Which is precisely what I'm saying. Through sarcasm.

And the Twilight mirror has *similar* functions to the magic mirror, but they can't be the same, because the Twilight mirror was destroyed.

In one timeline. :P

1) no, by Zantondorf's magic.
2) in ALttP it was how the Dark World worked, not neccecarily put thay way by Ganon.

1) The Shadow Crystals, which transform Link and require the Master Sword to be dispelled, are Ganondorf's magic.
2) In ALttP, the Dark World was the product of Ganon's evil heart. The way it works, transforming people into monsters, is a product of Ganon's heart as well, I'd presume, since this feature is only included in that game.

#75 Evilsbane

Evilsbane

    Scout

  • Members
  • 190 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 26 June 2007 - 05:57 PM

Wow, when I posted the theory I was expecting everyone to go 'what're you smokin', dude?'. I got that reaction to some degree but I never expected anyone to actually consider it plausible. Even if you're only playing devil's advocate, I thank you Lex for not falling into the 'knee-jerk reaction' category.

Like I said, these are only the impressions I got, but still: I get the feeling that many aspects of TP were meant to explain the less fleshed-out aspects of ALttP.

BTW, it may not even be necessary for the two Mirrors to be the same one. If TP and ALttP are in the same timeline, the Magic Mirror could still easily be a new Mirror that was created to link the Realms. If they're in separate timelines, then the Twilight Mirror was never destroyed.

Another thread of thought that I travelled along:
Ganon may have indeed specifically wished for Hyrule. However, technically he could have been granted this wish whilst still being stuck in the Twilight Realm. How? By the Twilight spreading slowly over Hyrule.
1- ALttP mentions that after the Sacred Realm had been rediscovered, evil began to issue from it. Was the Twilight attempting to engulf Hyrule?
2- The Sages managed to seal the dimensional portals from which this evil was flowing. The portals may appear to work differently in the old SNES game, but might these have been similar to the portals in the sky in TP?
3- After Agahnim took over, I distinctly remember the ALttP manual mentioning a climate of fear in some way. Had the Twilight engulfed Hyrule and people had become spirits? TP explained that people who lived in sections of Hyrule covered in Twilight would have no indication of it except for the inexplicable fear.
4- When Link entered the Dark World, was he merely 'pulling back the curtain' to see what Hyrule already was? This would explain the ability for the two worlds to interact in limited ways.
5- Once his Twilight had engulfed Hyrule, the Triforce would technically have granted Ganon's wish to conquer it, even though he was unable to set foot on the light side and truly interact with his new 'subjects'. Nevertheless, Ganon appeared to be beginning to poke a hole large enough for him to fit through - at Hyrule Castle. This recalls his similar breakthrough at the castle in TP.

Going back to Agahnim, I'd be open to the idea that he was Twili. After all, his skin was blue, and he certainly had a way with turning into shadows during his battles with Link. Hard to say, though.

Again, these are just impressions I get and I merely think it would be an interesting direction in which to take the 'how does ALttP relate to earlier (timeline-wise) games' dilemma. Perhaps the portal on Death Mountain was the point at which Agahnim got OUT of the Dark World, not IN. I imagine it would be easy for him if he were a usurper of the Twili throne, like Zant. That allows a person to manipulate the Twilight in some way, right? Otherwise I don't see how Zant got out of the Twilight Realm either.

Edited by Evilsbane, 26 June 2007 - 06:03 PM.


#76 MikePetersSucks

MikePetersSucks

    Actual Japanese Person

  • ZL Staff
  • 4,174 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 June 2007 - 10:49 PM

Yes. That's what YOU are saying.

I don't recall ever having a source on this.

The LTTP manual. The same that says the Sacred Realm has a golden sky in the first place. (A statement that doesn't exist in the Japanese manual anyway, so it's probably just a coincidence the sky is golden in the Twilight Realm, unless someone wants to argue that NoJ is taking ideas from NoA, but that's a whole new can of worms entirely.)

So it is very much "the same."


Being invaded by the same magic is not the same as being the same realm.

1) We don't know how large the Magic Mirror is. We do know that both are able to be lugged all over Hyrule, though, just like every other oversized load Link has ever had.
2) It never falls into evil hands, so we don't know if there's any danger, do we?

1) The Magic Mirror at the very least can't be as big as the Twilight Mirror, since it can fit in his pocket. The Twilight Mirror is only carried around in fragments. Fragments, might I add, that Midna carries, and she seems to have access to some sort of Hammerspace.
2) I never said anything about it falling into evil hands, just that it had an evil, corruptive power. Look what it did to Yeta. It's also presumably the source of their guardians' powers, or something, from the looks of it. Regardless, the Twilight Mirror has an outright evil power. Midna says so herself. She claims, after claiming the last piece, that it's too dangerous for anyone to have and it's a destructive power.

1) By Ganondorf's magic.
2) The same thing that tranformed him in ALttP.


In LTTP it was the Triforce's magic.

...I think you can make a logical guess as to what I have to say about the "sky Scene." and Can't it just be the Sacred Realm? isn't that just simpler?

No, because why can Zelda enter it at the drop of a hat when it's supposed to be a sacred place with umpteen locks and seals?

nevertheless, it is A golden land, so why not THE Golden Land?


Because from what we've seen of the Golden Land, it doesn't have a golden GROUND.

That's why the sky's black.

If that was the Sacred Realm, and the Triforce was absent, the sky would be blue.

In one timeline.


Even though evidence heavily leans in the direction of TP leading right into LTTP?

2) In ALttP, the Dark World was the product of Ganon's evil heart. The way it works, transforming people into monsters, is a product of Ganon's heart as well, I'd presume, since this feature is only included in that game.

Yes, but it was the TRIFORCE'S magic. Just like Vaati's powers in TMC are the Minish Cap's Magic, and his ascension is the Light Force's magic, and so on. Not his/their own.

BTW, it may not even be necessary for the two Mirrors to be the same one. If TP and ALttP are in the same timeline, the Magic Mirror could still easily be a new Mirror that was created to link the Realms. If they're in separate timelines, then the Twilight Mirror was never destroyed.


Or more simply, why can't they just be two unrelated mirrors that are both magical? We have unrelated magic swords, unrelated magic canes, unrelated magic medallions, and on and on. Why does every Mirro have to be the same one and/or connected directly?

1- ALttP mentions that after the Sacred Realm had been rediscovered, evil began to issue from it. Was the Twilight attempting to engulf Hyrule?

Or more simply, A) A metaphor for Ganon's monsters, or B) an allusion to that "vile wind" that was causing plagues and making people sick. Why does everything have to fucking retroactively connect?

2- The Sages managed to seal the dimensional portals from which this evil was flowing. The portals may appear to work differently in the old SNES game, but might these have been similar to the portals in the sky in TP?


Hell no. The TP Portals were a network of wormholes that connected several locations of HYRULE, and only HYRULE. The portals of LTTP were one way gates to the Dark World. Furthermore, only Twilight creatures could take the TP portals.

I mean, hell, if you're gonna use that logic, then why aren't the LTTP portals and the portal that led to Termina the same? Face it, Zelda has a lot of reoccuring themes that don't have any deeper meaning. Live with it.

3- After Agahnim took over, I distinctly remember the ALttP manual mentioning a climate of fear in some way. Had the Twilight engulfed Hyrule and people had become spirits? TP explained that people who lived in sections of Hyrule covered in Twilight would have no indication of it except for the inexplicable fear.

The LTTP manual describes natural disasters. I think that was what they were afraid of. If the Dark World had ever even partially merged with Hyrule in a TP fashion, I think an in-the-know character like one of the Maidens would've brought it up.

4- When Link entered the Dark World, was he merely 'pulling back the curtain' to see what Hyrule already was? This would explain the ability for the two worlds to interact in limited ways.


GOD DAMMIT, NO! How hard is it to accept that the Dark World is the fucking Sacred Realm warped to Ganon's desires? The two realms effected each other because the Dark World is a mirror of Hyrule.

5- Once his Twilight had engulfed Hyrule, the Triforce would technically have granted Ganon's wish to conquer it, even though he was unable to set foot on the light side and truly interact with his new 'subjects'. Nevertheless, Ganon appeared to be beginning to poke a hole large enough for him to fit through - at Hyrule Castle. This recalls his similar breakthrough at the castle in TP.

Or, he was simply opening a portal so he could escape and take over Hyrule. I think the dominant theory, from what I've seen, is that the Triforce gives you the MEANS to grant your wish, and then lets you accomplish it yourself. It gave him the Dark World, minions, Agahnim (presumably?), and thus gave him the tools to do everything himself.

Going back to Agahnim, I'd be open to the idea that he was Twili. After all, his skin was blue, and he certainly had a way with turning into shadows during his battles with Link. Hard to say, though.


The Twili also can't live in Hyrule without degenerating and becoming deathly ill, the only exception being when Zelda pretty much merged with Zelda.

Again, these are just impressions I get and I merely think it would be an interesting direction in which to take the 'how does ALttP relate to earlier (timeline-wise) games' dilemma. Perhaps the portal on Death Mountain was the point at which Agahnim got OUT of the Dark World, not IN. I imagine it would be easy for him if he were a usurper of the Twili throne, like Zant. That allows a person to manipulate the Twilight in some way, right? Otherwise I don't see how Zant got out of the Twilight Realm either.


I think the obvious implication was that Ganon's magic allowed Zant to do it, not nessessarily ursurping the throne. Though it's my belief that Ganon created Agahnim entirely. After all, Zant was never referred to as an "Alter ego."

#77 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 27 June 2007 - 05:30 PM

Though Ganon obtained the entire Triforce in ALttP, the sages' seal prevented him from fulfilling his wish to rule the light world.
Though Ganondorf did not obtain the entire Triforce in OoT, he was still granted the Triforce of Power, with which he effectively fulfilled his wish to rule the light world.
Though Ganondorf did not obtain the entire Triforce in TP, he was still granted the Triforce of Power, with which he began to attempt to rule the light world by spreading Twilight across Hyrule.

In short, same story, growing endlessly more complicated.

In ALttP, though, I think his wish to rule the world was expressed through the transformation of the Sacred Realm. The world he wished to rule was reflected in that transformation. Though this was explored in greater detail in TWW, what was the desert became a wetland, reflecting some of his deeper desires.

#78 MikePetersSucks

MikePetersSucks

    Actual Japanese Person

  • ZL Staff
  • 4,174 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 June 2007 - 07:58 PM

I agree with the above post. Now can we just leave it on that note?

#79 CID Farwin

CID Farwin

    Disciple

  • Members
  • 2,935 posts
  • Location:At the threshold
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 June 2007 - 04:56 PM

I agree with the above post. Now can we just leave it on that note?

Not until I get my two cents in.

No, because why can Zelda enter it at the drop of a hat when it's supposed to be a sacred place with umpteen locks and seals?

The only thing keeping the sacred realm private in OoT is the Master Sword, which Link has at the time.

Because from what we've seen of the Golden Land, it doesn't have a golden GROUND.

Wait a sec, *checks picture gallery* Looks like a purple sky with a golden ground, hm.

And I remember Link's bow looking different in OoT. It's a style difference, amid many others. If I can deal with a Hyrule without dark colors, you can deal with a Golden Land with a dark sky and golden ground.

I'm getting tired of arguing. I think that there's just some stuff we all need to agree to disagree on.

Oh, and by the way, Zelda's a Video Game.

#80 Fyxe

Fyxe

    hwhere is fyxckz adn her big boobs/>?

  • Members
  • 7,132 posts
  • Location:England

Posted 29 June 2007 - 06:41 PM

Though Ganondorf did not obtain the entire Triforce in OoT, he was still granted the Triforce of Power, with which he effectively fulfilled his wish to rule the light world.

Just a small point I'd like to make here, not taking sides or anything. Ganon's wish was actually to rule the 'cosmos', apparently, meaning more than just Hyrule. I don't think the events of OoT count as him truely ruling the Light World anyway. Without the whole Triforce, he could not fulfill his wish.

We've never actually seen what would occur if Ganon had the entire Triforce and entered the Light World.

I hope that if they feel like using Ganon again, Ganon will obtain the entire Triforce and use it within the Light World to devastating effect. OoT's future Hyrule was not a real 'Dark World', and it would be nice to explore an entire Dark World in a 3D game. TP came close with the Twilight, but not quite. Close enough for now.

Plus I want to fight the real old school pig Ganon from TLoZ, ALttP, FSA and the Oracle games in a 3D game. We've had everything but, generally.

#81 MikePetersSucks

MikePetersSucks

    Actual Japanese Person

  • ZL Staff
  • 4,174 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 June 2007 - 01:56 AM

Wait a sec, *checks picture gallery* Looks like a purple sky with a golden ground, hm.

Art doesn't mean anything. Hell, clothing colors don't even match up. "Where the sky shines gold, not blue."

And that's not even taking into account that the Golden Land thing is exclusively North American, so it doesn't matter either way.

If I can deal with a Hyrule without dark colors, you can deal with a Golden Land with a dark sky and golden ground.


But then it isn't the Golden Land by definition.

Oh, and by the way, Zelda's a Video Game.


What, is there someone here saying otherwise? If someone's running into their backyard looking for the Master Sword, I think we have bigger issues than what color the sky in the Golden Realm is or what the hell Agahnim's supposed to be. Someone call the Psych Ward.

#82 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 30 June 2007 - 09:12 AM

I don't think the events of OoT count as him truely ruling the Light World anyway. Without the whole Triforce, he could not fulfill his wish.

He didn't turn it into the Dark World, but he was its king.

#83 Fyxe

Fyxe

    hwhere is fyxckz adn her big boobs/>?

  • Members
  • 7,132 posts
  • Location:England

Posted 30 June 2007 - 09:21 AM

But proclaiming yourself king does not constitute absolute rule. Without the remaining Triforce pieces, he would continue to encounter opposition. Besides, Hyrule is not the whole of the Light World, it is merely a section of it.

#84 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 30 June 2007 - 10:24 AM

Without the remaining Triforce pieces, he would continue to encounter opposition. Besides, Hyrule is not the whole of the Light World, it is merely a section of it.


1) He encounters opposition with the remaining Triforce pieces, too. ;)
2) You're being a stickler where it is unnecessary to be so. He was able to use the Triforce of Power to carry out his desires. That was the main point.

#85 MikePetersSucks

MikePetersSucks

    Actual Japanese Person

  • ZL Staff
  • 4,174 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 June 2007 - 01:21 PM

He could carry out some of his desires, but not absolutely.

#86 LionHarted

LionHarted

    Quirky.

  • Members
  • 2,029 posts

Posted 30 June 2007 - 01:28 PM

He could carry out some of his desires, but not absolutely.


He couldn't carry out his desires absolutely with the whole thing, either.

Besides, all I'm arguing is that the way his use of the Triforce has been depicted has grown more and more complicated throughout the series development, and that parts of one depiction fill in mysteries about the others.

Edited by LionHarted, 30 June 2007 - 01:28 PM.


#87 SOAP

SOAP

    So Oo Ap Puh

  • Members
  • 7,750 posts
  • Location:Savannah, GA Hell Yeah!
  • Gender:Male
  • World

Posted 30 June 2007 - 05:01 PM

Two things:

The sky of the Twilight Realm looks pretty golden to me.
Link carries a whopping huge ball and chain in his pockets, he can carry the Twilight Mirror too. We have no idea how big the Magic Mirror is.

#88 MikePetersSucks

MikePetersSucks

    Actual Japanese Person

  • ZL Staff
  • 4,174 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 June 2007 - 05:26 PM

The sky of the Twilight Realm looks pretty golden to me.

To me, it looks like golden clouds on a black sky.

Link carries a whopping huge ball and chain in his pockets, he can carry the Twilight Mirror too. We have no idea how big the Magic Mirror is.


Good point, but the Magic Mirror still doesn't have an evil, corruptive nature.

#89 SOAP

SOAP

    So Oo Ap Puh

  • Members
  • 7,750 posts
  • Location:Savannah, GA Hell Yeah!
  • Gender:Male
  • World

Posted 01 July 2007 - 01:31 AM

[quote name='MikePetersSucks' post='342484' date='Jun 30 2007, 10:26 PM']The sky of the Twilight Realm looks pretty golden to me.[/quote]To me, it looks like golden clouds on a black sky.[/quote]
OMG! Still gold. It's just a very dark sky because of all the overcast.

[quote]Good point, but the Magic Mirror still doesn't have an evil, corruptive nature.[/quote]
To me, it seems as though as though Nintendo combined the ideas of the Magic Mirror and the Dark Mirror and came up with the Twilight Mirror. They could all be the same mirror or maybe two of them are the same and one of them isn't or they're all just three different mirrors that share similar properties. We don't know, and I doubt Nintendo would care if some people choose to believe that the Magic Mirror and Twilight Mirror are the same mirror. Just like I doubt they'd care if some people assume all the different versions of Hyrule are all the same place despite the vast differences. IMO, there's not much to say either way. I'm just not convinced that they're NOT the same mirror because the arguements against it are little more just nitpicking.

#90 MikePetersSucks

MikePetersSucks

    Actual Japanese Person

  • ZL Staff
  • 4,174 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 July 2007 - 01:00 PM

To me, it seems as though as though Nintendo combined the ideas of the Magic Mirror and the Dark Mirror and came up with the Twilight Mirror. They could all be the same mirror or maybe two of them are the same and one of them isn't or they're all just three different mirrors that share similar properties. We don't know, and I doubt Nintendo would care if some people choose to believe that the Magic Mirror and Twilight Mirror are the same mirror. Just like I doubt they'd care if some people assume all the different versions of Hyrule are all the same place despite the vast differences. IMO, there's not much to say either way. I'm just not convinced that they're NOT the same mirror because the arguements against it are little more just nitpicking.


Just like all the arguements that say they're the same. "like, oh my god, they both transport people." We have multiple unrelated magical swords, magical canes, magical medallions, magical ocarinas, etcetera. Why can't we have unrelated magical mirrors?




Copyright © 2025 Zelda Legends