135 replies to this topic

[MikePetersSucks]

I personally interpretted Agahnim as a part of Ganon's soul, which he merged with after his demise. (Examples of similar phenomena including Kagome and Kikyo from Inuyasha, Alessa and Cheryl from Silent Hill, etcetera.)

[Person]

Agahnim could've been talking about he and Ganon's army as the "tribe of evil." Doesn't prove anything, really. I just think that the fact that the seal is still intact and that Ganon is still stuck inside the Dark World means that he had to use Agahnim as a phantom to kidnap the maidens to break the seal. In doing so, Ganon could conquer both worlds. It's kind of like how he uses Phantom Ganon in TWW, only on a larger scale.

[Raien]

Agahnim could've been talking about he and Ganon's army as the "tribe of evil." Doesn't prove anything, really. I just think that the fact that the seal is still intact and that Ganon is still stuck inside the Dark World means that he had to use Agahnim as a phantom to kidnap the maidens to break the seal. In doing so, Ganon could conquer both worlds. It's kind of like how he uses Phantom Ganon in TWW, only on a larger scale.

Phantom Ganon is really a soldier of Ganon, though; just like the Helmaroc King. And as OoT shows, Phantom Ganon is a separate entity to Ganon; they don't share the same mind. If anything in TWW is comparable to Agahnim, it is Ganondorf himself. The seal on Ganondorf in TWW was kept in place by the Master Sword, but Ganondorf leaked part of his magic to the surface and formed himself in the Forsaken Fortress.

[SL the Pyro]

I just had a thought; you'd think that when Agahnim warped into the Dark World that his power would increase. I found my second battle with him MUCH easier due to his lack of a lightning attack in the Dark World (it was really annoying in the Light World, I got hit by it more than anything). If Ganon's power increases, then shouldn't Agahnim's as well? If anything, those copies of him that he makes are just a feble attempt to run and hide; if anything he got weaker in the Dark World, which is the opposite of what should've happened.

Just thought I'd toss that in.

Edited by Shadow_Link, 14 June 2007 - 07:44 AM.

[Fyxe]

Firstly, his lightning attack is a piece of cake - he only uses it when he goes to the top of the screen in the middle, and he never aims it at you, he merely aims it straight down. Very easy to avoid. Just move out of the way when he goes near the north window.

Secondly, if he used it in the second battle, it would make the fight too hard - Agahnim is just meant to be a warm up for the real fight, Ganon. It's a gameplay issue more than anything.

You could argue that Agahnim simply can't use his lightning while he's split himself into copies.

Also, Agahnim was easier because Link was stronger - more hearts, and the player knows how to beat him. And Agahnim tends to get hit more often because he's firing three magic bolts to reflect back at him rather than just one. If Agahnim split into three the first time you faced him, I guarantee he would slaughter most players the first time they fight him.

[Raien]

The difficulty of a game (or parts of a game) is very much down to interpretation; it can't be accurately connected to the storyline. Then again, motions that show character or relate to specific magic do reflect intentions. For example, Ganondorf in Twilight Princess strutted slowly across the battlefield towards Link and made hand gestures to fight him; showing us that Ganondorf is very confident of his victory in the battle.

[Arturo]

You are reading too much into the "pawn" expression, especially when it just appears in the NOA translation, but doesn't in the original one.

In my opinion, Agahnim is just a very complex version of Phantom Ganon, that contains a part of Ganon's soul.

[LionHarted]

Link becomes a rabbit and Ganon becomes a pig.

Ganon was a pig in Hyrule, as well, in the original game.

[Person]

Yeah. Ganon is a pig inside and outside of the Dark World. The "Ganon is a pig because the Dark World mutated him" stems from the ALttP comic published in NP back in 1992. I'm surprised that belief has persisted this long.

[SL the Pyro]

I'd stick to that one if I even knew such a comic existed...

[Arturo]

Isn't ZL marvelous?

[Raien]

My mistake. But the pig form is still a reflection of Ganondorf's greed, so you can understand why the mistake was made.

[Fyxe]

I think it's fairly clear that until OoT, the intention was that Ganon became a pig because he entered the Dark World and got the Triforce. This was a semi-explanation for him being a pig, because ALttP essentially covered Ganon's origin story. The pig beast reflected what was in his heart, just as all the other Dark World transformations.

Ganon's origin was covered in more detail in OoT though, and showed that Ganondorf could change into a beast at will (well, not quite at will, but more-or-less).

HOWEVER, it seems that in all games following his death in ALttP, Ganon appears in his beast form at all times. TLoZ, Zelda II, and the Oracle games all involve Ganon as a monster and nothing else. It could be that he's stuck as it, even outside of the Dark World. It could be that when he's revived after ALttP, Ganon loses all remaining humanity (I'm not referring to Ganon in the Oracles, because he was killed again straight away).

[Raien]

I notice that Ganondorf has taken deviations of the pig form in the 3D games, but he always returned to his human form after the battle. But after taking the pig form as shown in FSA and ALTTP, the transformation appears to be permanent. As Fyxe suggested, Ganon could have lost all his humanity at that time, becoming the true Demon King.

[Person]

I personally interpret it as a 2D-versus-3D style choice. The 3D games focused more on Ganon's character and persona, so they used his human form more often, and included the pig form as an homage to the 2D games. The 2D games use Ganon as a "last boss" that you don't see until the ending. There isn't much time to put together a character, so they just use his "classic" blue pig form.

Although, the pig form could be caused by the Trident's magic or something. In FSA, his phantoms resemble his human form. But I still think that it's more of a style choice than anything else. I think that Ganon could change if he wanted to.

Edited by Person, 14 June 2007 - 10:27 PM.

[Raien]

Although, the pig form could be caused by the Trident's magic or something. In FSA, his phantoms resemble his human form. But I still think that it's more of a style choice than anything else. I think that Ganon could change if he wanted to.

I guess that if Ganon could create Agahnim then it would be possible to take on a human form. The question is which is his dominant form? In the 3D games, his human form is dominant, but in the 2D games, his pig form is dominant. This suggests that the demonic side of his character has "won over" the human side of his personality (which is evil nonetheless).

[SL the Pyro]

I recall seeing Ganondorf being sealed away in his human form after you defeat Ganon in OoT. Is this being ignored, or has it been disproven?

[Person]

Ganon is sealed away in his human form in OoT, and then breaks out in TWW. I think it's pretty clear that the ALttP seal is a different seal, although others may disagree.

[Chaltab]

I think Ganon's blue pig form is a consqeuence of his taking the the Trident. He was Ganondorf when reincarnated in FSA until the point he took the Trident, and in every 2D appearance, he's always been shown as Ganon. I think that he probably can't ever really become Ganondorf again, but he could probably use his magic to appear as Ganondorf if it suited his purposes.

[Mak]

A Link to the Past talks about how Ganondorf the thief got the Triforce and then Ganon, King of Darkness, was born. If you look at the Great Pyramid in the Dark World, there are statues of Agahnim all over it. Ganon refers to Agahnim as his alter-ego. The song on the OST was translated as "The Priest Transforms Into Ganon". It's almost like Agahnim was meant to be Ganondorf.

I thought it was kind of a plot twist when you go through Ganon's Tower and reach the boss room, only to find Agahnim there, and then Ganon rises from his body.

[Person]

I understand that Agahnim and Ganon are meant to be "one" in a sense, but I don't think that we need to think that they are the same in the sense that Ganon disguised himself as Agahnim. I think that Agahnim is like a complex Phantom Ganon. He cannot exist on his own, and is a creation of Ganon.

[Raien]

I understand that Agahnim and Ganon are meant to be "one" in a sense, but I don't think that we need to think that they are the same in the sense that Ganon disguised himself as Agahnim. I think that Agahnim is like a complex Phantom Ganon. He cannot exist on his own, and is a creation of Ganon.

Either that or he is a dead body possessed by Ganon.

I recall seeing Ganondorf being sealed away in his human form after you defeat Ganon in OoT. Is this being ignored, or has it been disproven?

This is why I said before that Ganon's human form is dominant in the 3D games, whereas his pig form is dominant in the 2D games.

Edited by jhurvid, 16 June 2007 - 02:13 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

Either that or he is a dead body possessed by Ganon.

Or a living one he has taken over. Don't you think that's about as likely?

[Raien]

Or a living one he has taken over. Don't you think that's about as likely?

Perfectly. Ganon's body cannot pass through to the Light World, so he had to bring his spirit there in the body of another. Either it was a body created by magic or it was a body possessed by Ganon. Then again, Zelda did say that Agahnim "wasn't human" so it may suggest that Agahnim was created by magic.

Out of interest, did anyone notice that the bug-catching kid in Kakariko was sick because of evil air coming from Death Mountain? This suggests that the portal there was how Agahnim brought himself to the Light World.

[Person]

More like Death Mountain had had an eruption or something, and he got sick. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Agahnim coming through the DM portal, but it might be an unwarranted assumption.

[MikePetersSucks]

Especially since those portals are ONE WAY.

[Arturo]

And especially since that quote is a mistranslation. The Japanese quote says:

Everyone says I've probably been affected by the monsters' aura coming flowing from the mountains and forests...

Edited by Arturo, 17 June 2007 - 03:05 PM.

[Raien]

And especially since that quote is a mistranslation. The Japanese quote says:

Everyone says I've probably been affected by the monsters' aura coming flowing from the mountains and forests...

Fair enough then. Even if the portal is one way for Link, I don't see why evil magic couldn't leak through. But the Japanese script says otherwise, so I'll drop the argument.

[LionHarted]

Zant could escape the Twilight Realm along with Ganondorf once he had Ganondorf's power.
Agahnim could escape the Dark World along with Ganon's spirit.

I presume that since both are related to dark tribes, we are to presume that their roles in the bypassing of seals on dark realms supposedly related to said dark tribes is related as well.

And the "evil air" coming from Death Mountain is exactly why I think a sages' seal from long ago suddenly becomes relevant after hundreds of years of dormancy. [/tangent]

Edited by LionHarted, 24 June 2007 - 01:01 AM.

[Evilsbane]

1- I'd be more inclined to believe that Agahnim's relationship with Ganon is similar to Zant's:
A: In both games, Ganon was stuck in a dimension he couldn't escape from
B: In both games, he uses his pawn to open the way to Hyrule (Agahnim imprisons the Maidens, Zant expands the Twilight Realm)
C: In both games, you can defeat the pawn but he won't die
D: In both games, the pawn usurps the throne of his ruler
E: In both games, the pawn is initially made out to be the mastermind

This gives me the following IMPRESSIONS:
A: That Zant was inspired by Agahnim, and Agahnim is more or less another pawn
B: That TP is meant to elaborate on several points of ALttP, such as:
C: That the Twilight Realm is a retcon of the Dark World

2- To explain my position on this possible retcon:
A: Both dimensions are bathed in a golden light (sunset)
B: Both dimensions can change the forms of their inhabitants (spirits or animals or what have you)
C: Both dimensions are impossible to escape from without a Mirror
D: It's said in ALttP that when Ganondorf FINALLY managed to get the entire Triforce and wished for the world, 'that wish changed the Golden Land into the Dark World' i.e. the Goddesses possibly granted his wish by giving him A world, namely the Twilight Realm
E: the Dark World is a shadowy version of Hyrule in which you can't interact with people in the Light World, this also happens when Zant expands the Twilight into Hyrule
F: both dimensions serve as prisons for greedy people

3- I still think that the Death Mountain Portal is where Agahnim entered the Dark World, because
A: it's the only portal in the game that has already been uncovered before Link finds it
B: Ganon's Tower is immediately on the other side