147 replies to this topic

[Person]

We have only seen three wishes happen: Ganon's wish in ALttP, Link's wish in ALttP, and the King's wish in TWW in all of these situations, we have absolutley no freaking idea what happens to the Triforce after the wish-giving is over and done with. However, I think that it continues to serve the master, because Agahnim thinks of it as a superweapon in ALttP.

[LionHarted]

We know that after Ganon's wish in ALttP, it didn't remain on his person. It's still where I imagine he would have found it; in the chamber in the pyramid of power. We know that after Link's wish in AoL (to wake Sleeping Zelda?), it vanished. We know that after the King's wish in TWW, it flew away. We see it fly away after Oracles.

In AoL and TWW's case, it seems to be flying away after it fulfills the wish.
I imagine the same would be true of ALttP and Oracles (in Oracles, it may be fulfilling a wish made prior to Oracles).

[Person]

If it just flies away after granting a wish, then how does Ganon have it? How does the Royal Family have it in OoX? I still think that you become practically omnipotent with the thing, due to Agahnim's remarks about how it would make the Tribe of Evil unstoppable.

[CID Farwin]

What kind of wishy-thing would you fight a war over if it only gave you one?

[LionHarted]

If it just flies away after granting a wish, then how does Ganon have it?

He doesn't have it. It's sitting in a room away from him.

How does the Royal Family have it in OoX?

Who knows? We don't even know when they got it for OoX.

I still think that you become practically omnipotent with the thing, due to Agahnim's remarks about how it would make the Tribe of Evil unstoppable.

I still say this could be interpreted to mean that it simply hadn't been taken yet (by ALttP Ganon).

[MikePetersSucks]

Where are you getting this from? The only indication that the whole Triforce with a master sits in the Sacred Realm is in ALttP, and that's because Ganon can't get out.

After touching the Triforce in OoT, there's no indication that it ever went back to the Sacred Realm/Evil Realm unless it's with Ganon himself.

AOL: Triforce grants a wish, scatters off, but the Triforce is supposed to obey him for life.
TWW: Triforce grants a wish, scatters off, but the King is still kind've alive atleast for a little bit.

And as the Sacred Realm is the Triforce's "Resting place", it probably serves as a neutral holding zone unless summoned. Of course, I have no way to support this, thus "seems" and "probably."

Actually, that's only the case in TWW (and keeping it around for Ganon to just nab it isn't smart) and OoT when Ganondorf touched it, because it split. There's no indication that making a wish normally sends it scattering.

AOL.

I don't think there was a door opening at the time though, it seemed like a nod to the player saying 'yep, Zelda is checking on the Triforce'. At least that's a possible explanation. It could merely be a symbolic thing, of course.

I think the obvious intention is that the crest just glows as the world fades out, to be all "The End. And here's the obligatory Triforce shot that every game needs to have."

He doesn't have it. It's sitting in a room away from him.

A room in HIS FORTRESS in HIS WORLD.

I still say this could be interpreted to mean that it simply hadn't been taken yet (by ALttP Ganon).

Except he does own it.

You have a trend of ignoring and contesting facts held by even the most ignorant fan just because it's not written word for word for word for word. Learn the meaning of "context clues."

[LionHarted]

A room in HIS FORTRESS in HIS WORLD.

A room in the Sacred Realm that appears to have been made for it.

Except he does own it.

We don't find that out until after the seal is broken; there isn't really even a need (discarding all traditional ideas) for him to have it at all until that point.

You have a trend of ignoring and contesting facts held by even the most ignorant fan just because it's not written word for word for word for word.

I have a trend of ignoring things we assumed 13 years ago because things that have been said word-for-word since make it difficult for them to be perfectly true.

Edited by LionHarted, 31 July 2007 - 06:59 AM.

[Arturo]

You are all ignoring AoL backstory King, who ruled using the Triforce. It enver went to the Sacred Realm, last I checked.

[LionHarted]

It enver went to the Sacred Realm, last I checked.

Which would probably be because he:

1) might not have ruled with the whole Triforce
2) split up the Triforce to hide it before his death

[CID Farwin]

1) might not have ruled with the whole Triforce

Now that's just ignorance.

2) split up the Triforce to hide it before his death

but, he had it before that.

And also, didn't OoT's king use the Triforce to unify Hyrule?

[Fyxe]

And also, didn't OoT's king use the Triforce to unify Hyrule?

No. He just unified Hyrule at the end of the war prior to OoT.

[Hero of Legend]

You are all ignoring AoL backstory King, who ruled using the Triforce.

And you're ignoring my posts, because I brought that dude up a page ago. And so did MPS.

A room in the Sacred Realm that appears to have been made for it.

More the reason for Ganon not to move it. Instead he built his fortress around it. Because he's smarter than you.

We don't find that out until after the seal is broken; there isn't really even a need (discarding all traditional ideas) for him to have it at all until that point.

And thus, Mike Peters' legacy lives on. Horray!

I have a trend of ignoring things we assumed 13 years ago because things that have been said word-for-word since make it difficult for them to be perfectly true.

No they haven't.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 31 July 2007 - 12:09 PM.

[CID Farwin]

A room in the Sacred Realm that appears to have been made for it.

The ENTIRE SACRED REALM appears to have been made for it.

No. He just unified Hyrule at the end of the war prior to OoT.

hm. I thought I remembered something about the Triforce... Oh, well. I'm probably wrong anyway.

More the reason for Ganon not to move it. Instead he built his fortress around it. Because he's smarter than you.

He's also smarter than all of us, because he has the Triforce of Wisdom(and power, and courage).

Edited by CID Farwin, 31 July 2007 - 12:20 PM.

[Person]

After all, the legendary Hero
cannot defeat us, the tribe of
evil, when we are armed with
the Power of Gold.

Ganon's army is armed with the power of Gold. Doesn't that indicate that he owns it?

[LionHarted]

Now that's just ignorance.

Unless the king who initiated the Sleeping Zelda legend is not the king who initiated the hiding of the piece of Courage.

but, he had it before that.

Before what? Before LoZ?

Ganon's army is armed with the power of Gold. Doesn't that indicate that he owns it?

I'm arguing mostly that he does not continue to make wishes on it. He only makes the one wish to rule the world.

Edited by LionHarted, 31 July 2007 - 01:10 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I'm arguing mostly that he does not continue to make wishes on it. He only makes the one wish to rule the world.

And that's not what ANYONE ELSE was arguing. We were only arguing that Ganon OWNED the goddamn thing.

If you're going to argue something, atleast keep on the same damn page as the rest of us. It just complicates things and gives people the wrong ideas on your viewpoints.

[LionHarted]

And that's not what ANYONE ELSE was arguing. We were only arguing that Ganon OWNED the goddamn thing.

"Ganon owns the Triforce" =/= "it didn't return to its resting place" (most of you)
"Daphnes owns the Triforce" =/= "it didn't return to its resting place" (some of you)
"X character owns the Triforce" =/= "X character determines what happens to it after a wish is made" (several of you)

Any of these *could* be true. None of them necessarily *are*.

Edited by LionHarted, 31 July 2007 - 01:30 PM.

[Arturo]

Now that's just ignorance.

Unless the king who initiated the Sleeping Zelda legend is not the king who initiated the hiding of the piece of Courage.

Which means bending the meaning of canon in the way you like most... Great.

[LionHarted]

Which means bending the meaning of canon in the way you like most...

Or guessing that at least a partial retcon has taken place.

The naming of Zelda most nearly matches its original purpose if placed early, which at this point in the storyline development necessitates that the entire Triforce not be in the hands of the royal family at the time of the instigation of the tradition, and further necessitates two kings: one who was around when the first gen Zelda was alive; one who came in possession of the full Triforce, and could have been able to hide Courage and leave behind Power and Wisdom.

More or less involves as much "canon-bending" as late-IW does.

Edited by LionHarted, 31 July 2007 - 01:51 PM.

[Fyxe]

I'm arguing mostly that he does not continue to make wishes on it. He only makes the one wish to rule the world.

That's not how the Triforce works. It isn't some instantaneous thing. It gives people what their heart desires, it's not like a genie. Ganon's wishes are being granted continuously. His desire to conquer the cosmos is slowly coming true. Any other desires he has will also eventually come true through the Power of Gold. If the Triforce granted wishes without requiring any effort to actually USE the Triforce, then Ganon would have been free and king of everything instantly.

Oh, and now you're using the 'OMG THERE'S TWO KINGS' thing. Well I'm not touching that argument again with a ten foot pole. It reminds me of the whole 'Metroid Zero Mission is a prequel to the original Metroid' thing.

Edited by Fyxe, 31 July 2007 - 01:53 PM.

[LionHarted]

That's not how the Triforce works. It isn't some instantaneous thing.

Except when it is.

(See AoL, ALttP, and TWW, where it revives someone from a curse, brings people back from death, and floods a fucking kingdom, respectively.)

Ganon wished to conquer the cosmos. To conquer something requires that you go and conquer it. For someone to be revived from sleep, be brought back from death, or for a kingdom to be flooded are all miraculous occurrences, whereas Ganon wants something that he has to go and do himself.

Oh, and now you're using the 'OMG THERE'S TWO KINGS' thing

Better than some people who use the OMG THERE'S TWO WARS THAT SEAL THE SACRED REALM thing.

Of course, OMG THERE ARE TWO TIMELINES, so I've learned to be pretty open to anything that doesn't directly contradict established fact.

Edited by LionHarted, 31 July 2007 - 01:56 PM.

[Fyxe]

Except when it is.

(See AoL, ALttP, and TWW, where it revives someone from a curse, brings people back from death, and floods a fucking kingdom, respectively.)

In TWW and Zelda II it's a single event. The Triforce is used on that very spot to make something happen. In ALttP we have no idea how long it takes for things to return to normal. There is certainly time passing during the ending sequence, because Link appears with the Master Sword at one point and later is walking away from it in the Lost Woods. Link may have had to actually perform those miraculous events using his own power, much like how Ganon had to rule the world by using the Triforce to support his efforts.

Ganon wished to conquer the cosmos. To conquer something requires that you go and conquer it.

Technically, I think he wanted to rule the cosmos. Which is a bit different. That's all just pedantics though, which is pointless with a game that was originally Japanese.

Better than some people who use the OMG THERE'S TWO WARS THAT SEAL THE SACRED REALM thing.

Actually, I think they're equally annoying.

[LionHarted]

In TWW and Zelda II it's a single event. The Triforce is used on that very spot to make something happen.

In ALttP something does happen on the spot: the Sacred Realm is transformed into the Dark World. For whatever reason (the seal?) the Light World does not get transformed by the wish. In order to fully fulfill his wish, Ganon has to escape to the Light World.

In ALttP we have no idea how long it takes for things to return to normal. There is certainly time passing during the ending sequence, because Link appears with the Master Sword at one point and later is walking away from it in the Lost Woods. Link may have had to actually perform those miraculous events using his own power, much like how Ganon had to rule the world by using the Triforce to support his efforts.

Agreed.

Although I still think it most likely that they are simply miraculous after-effects of the wish, like the transformation of the Sacred Realm seems to have been prior.

"Rule", "conquer": neither is a passive happening. I can't just ask to rule the world; I have to actually rule it.

Edited by LionHarted, 31 July 2007 - 02:09 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

I'm arguing mostly that he does not continue to make wishes on it. He only makes the one wish to rule the world.

Or rather, you changed your argument midway when people started proving you wrong.

Unless the king who initiated the Sleeping Zelda legend is not the king who initiated the hiding of the piece of Courage.

I've heard that before. The theory doesn’t become any less stupid because you necrotize it. Neither does it become less stupid by not being any more stupid than other stupid, biased canon-bending theories.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 31 July 2007 - 02:37 PM.

[LionHarted]

I've heard that before. The theory doesn’t become any less stupid because you necrotize it. Neither does it become less stupid by not being any more stupid than other stupid, biased canon-bending theories.

Other theories that are "stupid" because they include two of something that people like to think there's only one of:

-- Two IWs (OoT + FSA/pre-ALttP)
-- Two naming traditions (AoL + TWW)
-- Two Ganons (OoT + FSA)
-- Two chronologies (3D + 2D)
-- Two timelines (Child + Adult)
etc. etc. etc.

The third and last, at least, are certainly true. Most on this site subscribe to the first and second. Many are beginning to subscribe to the fourth.

All of these theories (except the third), looking only at the games, are equally moronic.
All of these theories, looking only at the games, are at least somewhat necessary, given certain assumptions we hold/don't hold.

Edited by LionHarted, 31 July 2007 - 02:52 PM.

[Person]

But the Sleeping Zelda story hasn't been messed up by sequels. It still serves its purpose as a story set right before LoZ. It was originally intended as a naming legend, but that appears to have been retconned out of existence. The original manual told us that this was the first Zelda, but that line was surreptitiously edited out of the GBA manual.

For the record, your third theory should read "two Ganondorfs," because it's pretty clear that he's a reincarnation and not a new evil king.

Edited by Person, 31 July 2007 - 02:58 PM.

[CID Farwin]

The original manual told us that this was the first Zelda,

First generation Zelda. There is a difference.

[Person]

Doesn't matter sicne it's not in the manual now anyway.

[LionHarted]

But the Sleeping Zelda story hasn't been messed up by sequels.

Then it ought to still talk about the very first Princess Zelda, no?

It still serves its purpose as a story set right before LoZ. It was originally intended as a naming legend, but that appears to have been retconned out of existence. The original manual told us that this was the first Zelda, but that line was surreptitiously edited out of the GBA manual.

(Contradicting yourself now. ) Okay. Let's say the fact that she's the first Zelda no longer exists.

By that logic, all information related to Ganon taking the Triforce and being sealed in the Sacred Realm was removed from the ALttP GBA manual, therefore it's all no longer true. (Or, as I prefer to see it, simply no longer relevant.)

[Person]

The information in the GBA manual about the IW is still told in the backstory and the maidens' monologues. In AoL, it is told nowhere in the game, except for the manual, which is pretty much the same as the NES manual except for the line about the Princess being the first and the wizard dying (which is irrelevant, anyway).