147 replies to this topic

[Person]

Here, post your timeline theories that you once staunchly defended, but then realized were complete bunk.

For me, here's my 2003 timeline made before the release of FSA and TMC:

OoT-MM-TWW-FS-OoX-LA-ALttP-LoZ-AoL

I was a bit of a mono-Linkist at that time, so I had every game except for TWW and FS star the Hero of Time. I used Zelda.com's old "Link time-travels" canard to explain discrepancies.

Anybody else want to post their golden oldies?

[LionHarted]

OoT/MM-TP-TWW/PH-TMC-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA-OoS/OoA-LoZ/AoL

Could conceivably be mostly correct, with the 2D games coming after TWW or TP.

[Raien]

Will this do? I posted it on gamefaqs early last year.

Just to keep everyone up to date, this is the timeline most popular with theorists (called DP’s theory):
TMC-FS-OoT-MM-FSA-ALTTP-LA-LoZ-AoL-OoX
TMC-FS-OoT-TP-WW-PH

(Side note: I am fully aware that there are other timeline theories that place the games generally in a different order. Please don’t flame me if you support one of these theories because I am mainly addressing the established theory above. If you want to use this information to support your theories, then feel free to do so. It’s your legal right after all.)

However, this is the timeline that I am arguing for:
TMC-FS-ALTTP-LA-OoT-MM-FSA-LoZ-AoL-OoX
TMC-FS-ALTTP-LA-OoT-TP-WW-PH


The Redirection of the Zelda Series

This first section addresses the way the timeline was changed by the developers in 2003 and how this affects the potential sequence of events. To begin with, when Miyamoto was in charge of Zelda production and Aonouma had come into the big picture for OoT, there was a more simplistic timeline that Miyamoto told us about during OoT's development in which he said ALTTP carried on down the Adult Timeline of OoT. The subsequent games, MM & OoX did nothing to change this timeline.

So the timeline back then went:
OoT-ALTTP-LA-LoZ-AoL-OoX
OoT-MM

Taking only those games into consideration, there weren't too many major inconsistencies in the timeline that couldn't be explained logically or needed to be explained. Miyamoto had intended OoT to be the IW and apart from the Timeline splitting, there wasn't any need to develop alternate theories. A lot of the smaller connections that can be seen between OoT & ALTTP were built in with this timeline in mind. However, the story of TWW, which was released in 2003, changed all of that. A lot of key storyline details that were originally intended in the previous timeline and confirmed by the developers were changed quite extensively after TWW. The main change was that TWW became the definite sequel to Adult OoT with TP & PH also confirmed to take place before and after TWW. What resulted from this is that the new placement of ALTTP in the Child Timeline created another couple of inconsistencies in the timeline, which this time became harder to explain because the previous storyline details were not taking TWW storyline into account. The introduction of FSA created even more problems. Before FSA's release, Aonouma stated that he was trying to connect all the Zelda games together. However, although items and story elements from ALTTP reappeared in FSA (and it was therefore presumed FSA was the direct prequel to ALTTP), they all contradicted established facts from ALTTP. And also the number of inconsistencies in the theory has risen more substantially since FSA.

Inconsistencies with OoT-ALTTP (Original Timeline)
-The Triforce splits in OoT but is whole in ALTTP.
-The ALTTP legends don’t mention the Hero of Time.

Inconsistencies with OoT-ALTTP (since TWW’s release)
-The Triforce splits in the Adult Timeline but it doesn’t in the Child Timeline.
-There are seals placed to prevent Ganondorf from getting into the Sacred Realm but he somehow ‘accidentally’ manages to get inside anyway before the IW (according to the ALTTP legends). One of the OoT legends says only the Hero of Time can pull out the Master Sword, which means Ganondorf could not have got into the Sacred Realm without the hero.

Inconsistencies with OoT-FSA-ALTTP
-The Triforce splits in the Adult Timeline but it doesn’t in the Child Timeline.
-There are seals placed to prevent Ganon from getting into the Sacred Realm but he somehow manages to do so anyway.
-The Dark Mirror & Moon Pearl somehow completely change purposes between FSA & ALTTP.
-Ganon would have to break the seal on the Four Sword after FSA, break into the Sacred Realm in ALTTP and then weaken the seal placed on him during the IW to release Agahmim. And the idea that Ganon broke into the Sacred Realm contradicts the ALTTP legends that Ganon was human.

Despite that we see some recognised characters and sprites from ALTTP in FSA, the sequence of events that take place in the two games are totally contradictory. For me, it doesn't make any sense to have FSA directly connecting to ALTTP without disregarding a whole load of information from either game. Therefore, you have the choice of speculating to make events fit together or disregarding information from the old timeline (i.e. OoT & ALTTP) to make the timeline work. No one is willing to discount evidence from the old timeline games and so we must speculate. The main difference between the different timeline theories is what we perceive to be the logical series of events.

After discussing my new timeline possibility with other theorists, I have received lots of smaller connections (mostly involving the Gerudo or the IW) to support OoT-ALTTP. Now, I agree that these are positive connections but only because they all were made using the original OoT-ALTTP (Adult) timeline and if you read all the legends from only those two games, they suggest overwhelmingly that the old timeline was the intention. But the clear majority of these suggestions aren’t actually complete proof for OoT-ALTTP since the redirection took place and so the developers have room for manipulating the series in a different direction, namely TWW & FSA. For example, here’s a quote from the Deku Tree Sprout in OoT:

Some time ago, before the King of Hyrule unified this country, there was a fierce war in our world.

But TMC showed us that Hyrule was unified long before this quote was made. Then of course, we previously knew that Ganon got his pig form from the Sacred Realm and yet FSA tells us it was the Dark Trident that gave him that form. In other words, there are old storyline details that are referenced but not specifically explained (such as the two points I made above), which the developers can change or re-interpret in order to make the redirection of the series work. What I like about my theory is that these original connections never actually disprove ALTTP-OoT and key storyline details aren’t contradicted. Also, if I remember rightly, we came to the conclusion that although different races in Hyrule don’t always appear in the games, they still exist. There is no reason that I can find why the Gerudo/ Kokiri / Deku Tree should be exempt from that rule (especially as in ALTTP, Link never actually enters the Gerudo Desert or the Kokiri Forest).

In conclusion, as the Zelda series has continued, trying to keep the OoT-ALTTP connection has created more and more inconsistencies but there is room to place ALTTP before OoT since the redirection. To me, it makes more logical sense to do so.


Ganon's Rebirth & Origins

At the end of FSA, Zelda makes a statement referring to Ganon before she seals him in the Four Sword:

”King of Darkness, ancient demon reborn, wielder of the trident!”

The question is "Why was this statement written into the script when we can see that FSA shows the origins of Ganon, King of Darkness and the Trident, which then appear in ALTTP?" The answer is that FSA does not show the origins of Ganon, King of Darkness or the Trident because we know FSA Ganon is a reincarnation of an ancient demon and the Trident was the weapon that past-Ganon wielded before he was killed. This case is supported by the inscription that is written next to the Dark Trident’s resting place inside the Pyramid:

Seek...you...the world? Seek you...power? Does your...soul...despise peace and...thirst for...more? Does your soul...cry...for...destruction and...conquest? We...grant you...power to...ruin...the world. The power of...darkness. Evil...spirit of magic trident. You are...the...King of Darkness.

What we can see is that the inscription is calling out to the ‘Evil spirit of magic trident’, which is Ganon, to take the Trident and become the King of Darkness. We know from the Gerudo that Ganondorf is evil in spirit, and so we can deduce what we are seeing is the fulfilling of destiny where Ganon regains his old form and dark powers.

These statements can also tell us other things about Ganon’s rebirth process. First of all, for Ganon to be the true King of Darkness, he needs the Dark Trident. This is inferred in Zelda's statement that Ganon is the natural wielder of the Trident and that they must therefore share some sort of 'ying & yang' relationship in which Ganon's full powers of Darkness are only released when he holds the Trident. Secondly, we know from OoT & the ALTTP legends that Ganondorf is always born with an evil heart and in OoT, with dark magic powers (inherited from his previous incarnations). But Ganondorf always searches for the Triforce in OoT and ALTTP, not the Dark Trident. Surely if the Trident would awaken his natural dark powers then he would seek that instead of the Triforce. The fact that he doesn’t try to find the Trident suggests that when Ganondorf is born, he has no memory of his past incarnations. There is nothing even to suggest that he even remembers them after he regains the title of King of Darkness. In FSA, he knows there is a source of power in the Pyramid but not exactly what that power is, which is why he seeks the Triforce to begin with, because that is the most powerful object he knows about. In ALTTP, we know that Ganondorf was human when he entered the Sacred Realm from the legends, which means his wish must have transformed him into the King of Darkness, restoring the Dark Trident to him.

Ganon’s origins are a bit trickier to work out because he potentially has infinite origins, as he can be reborn over and over. I will present two different origin theories that I think are the most accurate. I prefer the former because it can be supported with in-game evidence and I will use that when discussing the sequence of events in my timeline.

1) According to my timeline, ALTTP is the first time that we actually see Ganon. We know from the ALTTP legends that Ganondorf was human before he took the Triforce and became the King of Darkness. What I take from this text is that Ganondorf wished on the Triforce to become the King of Darkness and hence he took on the monstrous pig form and the Dark Trident materialised with which Ganon would try to conquer Hyrule. The ALTTP legends describe Ganon’s origins.

2) In the legends of TMC, there is a ‘Shadow’ mentioned, which was destroyed by Link with the power of the Four Sword and the Light Force. Although this is total speculation, it is still possible that the ‘Shadow’ was an incarnation of Ganon before the events of ALTTP and FSA take place and therefore we never actually see the true origins of Ganon in the games.


The Sequence of Events (according to my theory)

There are two things to explain first.
1) Although I am not using quotes within this section, all the events directly relating to the games can be backed up with in-game evidence. The ALTTP-OoT and FSA-LoZ connections are more speculative but I will address these at the end of this topic.
2) As a reminder, all races in Hyrule exist even though we don’t see them in every game. This includes the Gerudo and the Kokiri / Deku Tree. The Hyrule map is somewhat versatile and Link never actually goes to all the same places in every game.

To begin with, in the legends of TMC, we are told that a Shadow appeared in Hyrule, which was defeated by a hero with the power of the Four Sword and the Light Force. These were given to him by the Minish people, who had extensive magical powers. In TMC, a Minish named Vaati stole a wish-giving hat and tried to take the Light Force from Zelda. Link defeated Vaati with the Four Sword and Zelda made a wish with the hat to spread the Light Force throughout Hyrule. As a side point, the legends at the very end of TMC tell us that the Light Force protects Hyrule from evil through the incarnations of Link and Zelda, which explains why we see them throughout the series as different individuals.

But surely this is not the end of Link and Zelda’s adventures in Hyrule. The legend will continue as long as the power of the light force echoes throughout the ages

Many years later, after the Minish were forgotten, Vaati then returned to Hyrule as a Wind Mage but was sealed twice in the Four Sword by Link (once in the FS legends and then again in FS).

After many hundreds of years, Ganondorf, a member of the evil Gerudo race of thieves, accidentally finds his way into the Sacred Realm with his group of followers. After killing his followers, he takes the Triforce and wishes to become the King of Darkness. His form changes to that of a monstrous pig, the Dark Trident materialises and Ganon, King of Darkness, starts sending monsters into the Light World to ravage and conquer Hyrule. Upon discovering Ganon, the King of Hyrule called for seven sages to seal Ganon away into the Sacred Realm, which they did at the cost of the Knights of Hyrule. Many years later Ganon used his remaining strength to send out his alter ego, Agahnim, in order to release the seal on the Sacred Realm. Link took the Master Sword from his pedestal and used it with the magical Silver Arrows to kill Ganon. Link then wished on the Triforce for the return of peace to Hyrule, which revived the King of Hyrule and his uncle.

Many things happened after the events of ALTTP. First of all, the seven maidens (or subsequent sages) cast the spell that makes the Triforce split when an unbalanced heart touches it and they sealed the Door to the Sacred Realm with the three spiritual stones, the Ocarina of Time & the Master Sword. This was done to prepare for the prophecy of the ‘Hero of Time’ that the awakened sages talk about in OoT. Secondly, the Knights of Hyrule are brought back through Link’s descendants. Thirdly, the evil tribe that attacked Hyrule were sealed inside the Magical Mirror, turning it into the Dark Mirror, which was then hidden deep in the Lost Woods.


After many hundreds of years, Ganon was reborn as the Gerudo king and guardian, Ganondorf. However, possessing Ganon’s soul, Ganondorf was an evil man and possessed dark magic powers. A few years later, there was a war in which a baby boy (Link) was hidden amongst the Kokiri for safekeeping, destined to become the Hero of Time. After the events of OoT where Link ran away from Hyrule with the Ocarina to prevent the evil Ganondorf from entering the Sacred Realm, Ganondorf decided to go against Gerudo law and enter the Pyramid. He found the Dark Trident and was transformed into the King of Darkness. Using Vaati & the Dark Mirror, he began to wreak chaos in Hyrule until Link defeated Vaati, recovered the Dark Mirror and finally sealed Ganon in the Four Sword. The Four Sword was returned to its pedestal and the Shrine Maidens placed an extra seal to prevent Ganon from escaping.

After many more hundreds of years, the King of Hyrule somehow managed to remove the seals on the Sacred Realm and split the Triforce into three pieces. The true nature of the Master Sword was lost in history. Ganon breaks free from the Four Sword either through the seal weakening over time or someone else releasing him. We are not actually told how so there is no point in speculating. Ganon then kidnaps Princess Zelda and takes the Triforce of Power. Link is told of what has happened and kills Ganon once again using the Silver Arrows. The Triforce of Courage is found and Hyrule is at peace once again until the events of OoX.


The Gerudo Tribe Theory

Before I go into this, I must explain that this theory is complete speculation. There is no evidence to support this theory whatsoever and so I am including it separately from the main timeline theory and the sequence of events. It basically takes three pieces of evidence from ALTTP, OoT & FSA. First of all, the ALTTP legends (Japanese) say that the Gerudo was ‘the race of evil thieves’. However, they are not evil as we see in OoT & FSA. Secondly, there was a war that occurred before OoT, which the Deku Tree Sprout described as:

Some time ago, before the King of Hyrule unified this country, there was a fierce war in our world.

This begs the question, why was Hyrule not unified before OoT? Which group of people were dissident from the Hyrule Royal Family? The third piece of evidence is that in FSA, we know that ‘an evil tribe’ was sealed inside the Magical Mirror, transforming it into the Dark Mirror. In my timeline, we know that all three events (the change of the Gerudo, the war and the sealing of the evil tribe) occur between ALTTP & OoT and therefore, it is possible that the evil tribe is from the Gerudo race. In timeline terms, the Gerudo race was once made up of two tribes; both thieves but one tribe had dark hearts and evil powers. This evil Gerudo tribe started a war in Hyrule and was sealed away inside the Magical Mirror by the Hylian Sages, turning it into the Dark Mirror. This introduces the possibility that the original Ganondorf from ALTTP was a member of this evil tribe and that OoT Ganondorf inherited this evil spirit from his predecessor. This theory explains why Ganondorf was reborn as another Gerudo male and suggests a connection with the Dark Mirror. However, no one in OoT mentions the war even though it occurred only about ten years before. It’s a nice theory as I see it but it can’t be proven.


Addressing Inconsistencies & Speculation

Looking back through my timeline theory, there is only one real inconsistency that I can see so far. That inconsistency is the origin of Kakariko Village. In OoT, we are told that Impa founded the village, which suggests that OoT takes place before ALTTP because Kakariko Village is fully built in ALTTP & FSA. However, it does not completely eliminate my timeline as a possibility because it is always possible that there are two Kakariko villages, just like there are multiple Tingles. We know that there was a war sometime before OoT, from the Deku Tree Sprout and it is possible that Kakariko village was destroyed and rebuilt since this war. That is only speculation on my part though and I have no proof to support it.

As far as speculation is concerned, there are two types of speculation: wild speculation and supported speculation. Wild speculation is where people make up events between games in order to support a theory whereas supported speculation is where a developer quote or a piece of in-game evidence is used to support a point. I have been trying to use as little wild speculation as I can when developing this theory, making sure that I have always got something to show that my theory is plausible. I consider my Redirection theory and Ganon’s rebirth theory supported speculation because I have used the evidence from ALTTP & FSA to back it up. By doing this, I have hoped to avoid inconsistencies and anything that might put my timeline at a disadvantage compared to DP’s theory.

Where I have used wild speculation in my timeline, I have tried to maintain a certain logic that it is always easier to explain how an event occurs than how it stops occurring. For example, we know that the Sacred Realm had lots of seals placed on it in OoT to prepare for the Hero of Time’s arrival to seal the Shadow from Hyrule. However, these seals don’t have any existence in ALTTP. If OoT-ALTTP, you would need to explain how Ganondorf/Ganon broke through the seals that were designed to ultimately repel him. With ALTTP-OoT, you need to explain how the seals on the Sacred Realm were cast. Considering that there were sages/maidens at the end of ALTTP, I find it more logical to suggest how the seals on the Sacred Realm were placed than how they were broken. It is by definition ‘wild speculation’, but for me it has a logic that makes it easier to comprehend and explain.

However, the seals no longer exist in LoZ, which goes against that logic because we are not told how that happens. But I can use three other points to support the theory that it happens. First of all, the Triforce pieces are separated in a similar fashion to TWW, which suggests that LoZ takes place after the seals on the Sacred Realm were cast. Secondly, FSA is the only game in the Child Timeline where Ganon doesn’t die and LoZ is the only game where Ganon doesn’t have any origins. It is much easier to speculate that Ganon broke the seal on the Four Sword, which then connects to the events of LoZ. Thirdly, it is inferred that it was the King of Hyrule who split the Triforce and because the seals were not designed to repel him, then there is a remote possibility that he or Zelda/Sages were able to break the seals themselves.

Edited by jhurvid, 05 June 2007 - 08:31 PM.

[Chaltab]

I found this old timeline of mine from March of 05. Geez. Hehe.

The later parts of it are pretty much the same as my current theory, but..

The Minish Cap

Four Swords

Four Swords Adventures

Ocarina of Time

Majora's Mask

The Wind Waker

Oracle

Link's Awakening

A Link to the Past

Legend of Zelda

Adventure of Link

Obviously I wasn't paying attention in FSA to the whole 'Ancient Demon Reborn' bit. Either that, or I hadn't played FSA yet. Not sure which.

[SOHI06]

The Synthesis Theory

Introduction:
This, one of many timeline theories, will try to develop a chronology for the Zelda games. This is a different type of theory. Instead of over-analysizing geography and phrasing of certain words in the games, this will take the clear path in theorizing. Taking game storylines and synthesizing them with interviews with the creators of the Zelda franchise to create a clear, irrefutable skeleton of a chronological theory.

Sources:
The sources are the clear game canon and creator canon coming out of various interviews. Two important interviews will include the interviews that established the split timeline theory with Aonouma and the interview establishing the Miyamato order.

Assumptions:
(a)Recurring Characters- Unless specifically stated each character is the same game to game, save for Link and Zelda of course.

Geography- Much of the geography depends on the specific game and platform, and except for the Wind Waker where it is heavily integrated to the plot, and therefore doesn't matter that much to canon.

Irrefutable Timeline Skeleton:

This is established by the creators Eiji and Miyamato in interviews.

Ocarina of Time(adult end) ---- The Wind Waker
/
/ [Timeline Split]
/
Ocarina of Time(kid end) - Legend of Zelda - Zelda II – ALTTP

YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THAT.








Assumption A Addition (Ahh... Alliterations):
One thing that strikes me about the Oracle Series is the main villains happen to be Twinrova. Based on our assumption that these characters are the same as the Oot characters, we then ask where to put the Oracle series. Which timeline? Simple, can't be adult timeline because they died in the spirit temple,so it must be in the childhood timeline. What else can be deducted from assumption A? Well, the oracles(Din, Nayru and Farore) appear in Hyrule during the course of the Minish cap, successfully establishing the Four Sword series after the oracle series (TMC – FS – FSA ). Therefore here is a new ligament of the timeline, unattached as it is.

Oracle Series – The Minish Cap – Four Swords – Four Swords Adventures

The Biggest Issue: WHEN DOES GANON ACTUALLY DIE?
By that I mean this: In the childhood timeline Ganon actually dies three times. Once in twilight princess, once in the Legend of Zelda and once in A Link To the Past. So many problems.

My Current Timeline Theory:
This is my interpretation, and yes it is refutable(unlike most of the rest of this article)! I'll explain as I go along. First of all I am placing Legend of Zelda and Adventure of Link (I am fully aware of the possibility of games going in between these two games) before the Oracle games. Why? The oracle games feature twinrova attempting to resurrect Ganon in with out the seven sages, meaning Ganon wasn't sealed but killed. Similarly in Adventure of Link, the minions of evil are attempting the same. The Ganon in FSA is a different Ganon (assumption (a) allows this, as FSA clearly shows this is a different Ganon) and when he is sealed he becomes the Ganon of the dark realm you fight is A Link To the Past.









Thus:

Ocarina of Time(kid end)
/
Majora's Mask
/
Legend of Zelda
\
Adventure of Link
\
The Oracle Series
/
The Minish Cap
\
Four Swords
/
Four Swords Adventures
/
A Link To The Past

I honestly have no idea where to fit Twilight Princess. Mainly because I don't know how to reconcile Ganon With The rest of them. Here is the wildest of all stabs. If these games take place after the kid end in Ocarina of Times that MEANS THE SAGES WERE NEVER AWAKENED and also GANON WAS NEVER SEALED AND NEVER ATTACKED HYRULE CASTLE AS WELL AS NEVER STEALING THE TRIFORCE. Therefore in the kid ending Ganon never made his move, but would he? Perhaps the back story of Twilight Princess explains it all. The second half of Ocarina of Time never happened, so the story goes the ancestors of the Twili initiated the imprisoning war, spoken of in A Link to The Past, because of their crime they got banished to the twilight realm. Meanwhile the victor of the war, Ganondorf Dragmire, is executed by some oddly dressed sages, likely the first sages as the others(From Ocarina of Time's future) are not awakened. Unfortunately he has actually gotten the triforce of power and then kills one of the sages. After he is sealed with the other criminals of the war in the twilight realm. After the events of Twilight Princess, when he escapes, he is stabbed but not dead (Is he dead? Is he really dead? How can he be dead? such questions echo through the mind of every true fan). He later returns with an army attempting to reconquer Hyrule. The Legend of Zelda!




Thus, my new timeline:

Ocarina of Time(kid end)
/
Majora's Mask
/
ERA OF THE IMPRISONING WAR
/
Twilight Princess
\
Legend of Zelda
\
Adventure of Link
\
The Oracle Series

The Minish Cap
\
Four Swords
/
Four Swords Adventures
/
A Link To The Past

and

Ocarina of Time(adult end)
\
The Wind Waker
/
The Phantom Hourglass



Conclusion:
You can't refute the Skeleton or the Oracle series- Four Sword Series arguments. What about the rest. Comments? The best timeline to date, the most accurate canon.

[SOHI06]

Just remember, LOZ and AOL come before A Link To The Past, the Four Sword Series comes after the Oracle Series. That is irrefutable canon. Anything that goes against that is therefore false and dismisable.

[MikePetersSucks]

I really hope you're being sarcastic, SOHI06.

Anyway, my old theory was OOT>LTTP>LA>LOZ>AOL. I feel old.

[Person]

Hey, MPS, don't feel bad. That theory made perfect sense... in 1998.

And I do think that SOHI06 was being sarcastic, or just quoting one of his old theories.

[SOHI06]

I wasn't being sarcastic, if you can logically disengage the Miyamato order you might as well not hold LOZ or AOL as canon since he was the main producer behind both games. If you can diengage one producers timeline why not disengage all producers timelines? Eiji's double timeline goes out the window? I mean, if you want to make up crap chronolgies here's one....

MC-FS-FSA-ALLTP-WW-PH-OOT-OOX-AOL-LOZ-MM-TP

Absurd, yes, but I'm sure enough rhetoric can prove it's validity.

[Jumbie]

I wasn't being sarcastic, if you can logically disengage the Miyamato order you might as well not hold LOZ or AOL as canon since he was the main producer behind both games. If you can diengage one producers timeline why not disengage all producers timelines? Eiji's double timeline goes out the window?

Heh, I never thought for one second you were being sarcastic. I just thought, "What the...!! That hasn't happened in a long time..."
Listen, the Miyamoto order is commonly agreed to be utter bullshit. Here are some golden rules for you about developer statements:

- We are NOT to believe *just anything* a developer says.
- We are NOT to believe developer statements which they didn't bother to back up with explanations/justifications.
- We are NOT to believe developer statements that conflict with what the games imply. In-game canon holds more significance than what they comment.
- We are NOT to believe statements of developers that don't care a damn about the timeline. Miyamoto said he doesn't care, whereas Aonuma said he cares.
- We ARE to believe developer statements that go in hand with what the games imply, and only those.

Btw, Aonuma is known to have once claimed FS to be the first game in the series, so, shouldn't you go believing that as well?

[MikePetersSucks]

He actually said FSA was the first in the series, but back to the point.

Just remember, LOZ and AOL come before A Link To The Past, the Four Sword Series comes after the Oracle Series. That is irrefutable canon. Anything that goes against that is therefore false and dismisable.

LTTP was actually designed as a prequel to the first two games, and the Four Sword series was never mentioned in the same breath with Oracles, so I don't know which region of your ass that came from.

MC-FS-FSA-ALLTP-WW-PH-OOT-OOX-AOL-LOZ-MM-TP

Absurd, yes, but I'm sure enough rhetoric can prove it's validity.

Yea, well, you lose. WW/PH can't go before OOT and nothing can come between OOT and MM.

[Doopliss]

It's been a long time since I last came here. Mostly because I haven't played TP yet. Before that, I used to believe in a single timeline theory where ALttP comes first and and TWW is last. Do you people still believe in single timelines?

Don't be so tough to Sohi06, he's just joined yesterday! I think that you should first have a look at what things we know that are definitely true, Sohi06, such as ALttP coming before LoZ, AoL, as it is explicity stated in the box.

Edited by Doopliss, 20 July 2007 - 12:19 PM.

[LionHarted]

We are NOT to believe developer statements which they didn't bother to back up with explanations/justifications.

ALttP is not necessarily before LoZ, either, then, is it?

We are NOT to believe statements of developers that don't care a damn about the timeline. Miyamoto said he doesn't care, whereas Aonuma said he cares.

Miyamoto said "these things do not matter" (going on to talk about the entire Zelda team's approach, not just his own); Aonuma said "I am going to bring these stories (implied: the games before his time) together". (Which, you must admit, has not happened.)

So Miyamoto is going up-front and saying that the timeline is not important; Aonuma is saying it is important, and that he'll fix it, and then not really doing this.

as ALttP coming before LoZ, AoL, as it is explicity stated in the box.

Pssssh. Everybody knows that box text is outdated by the Miyamoto Order.

Edited by LionHarted, 20 July 2007 - 12:23 PM.

[CID Farwin]

So Miyamoto is going up-front and saying that the timeline is not important; Aonuma is saying it is important, and that he'll fix it, and then not really doing this.

have you thought that maybe it's a HARD thing to do, and that's why he hasn't yet? I mean, None of us can come up with a decent way to make it all work, and the ones we CAN come up with, a lot of people hate. What would you do in Aonuma's position? I'd be doing what he is. Stalling with new games.

Pssssh. Everybody knows that box text is outdated by the Miyamoto Order.

Everybody knows that the Miyamoto order is utter bull.

Edited by CID Farwin, 20 July 2007 - 12:32 PM.

[LionHarted]

Everybody knows that the Miyamoto order is utter bull.

Why?

OoT - Triforce taken from Sacred Realm and split, Ganon and the Sacred Realm sealed
LoZ - Ganon had seized the Triforce of Power some years before (OoT?), is killed by Link with the Silver Arrows after he captures Princess Zelda
AoL - Ganon dead; Triforce reunited by Link
ALttP - Ganon rediscovers Sacred Realm and takes Triforce; is killed by Link with the Silver Arrows

The only problem is the reappearance of Ganon, but, wait, that's an inevitable problem if you include both LoZ and ALttP in a timeline. Those who argue what I argue with OoT being the IW with TWW in-between can argue the same for OoT-LoZ-ALttP, and those who argue that OoT is not the IW can do so happily.

What's the problem?

Edited by LionHarted, 20 July 2007 - 12:39 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Everybody knows that the Miyamoto order is utter bull.

Why?

OoT - Triforce taken from Sacred Realm and split, Ganon and the Sacred Realm sealed
LoZ - Ganon had seized the Triforce of Power some years before (OoT?), is killed by Link with the Silver Arrows after he captures Princess Zelda
AoL - Ganon dead; Triforce reunited by Link
ALttP - Ganon rediscovers Sacred Realm and takes Triforce; is killed by Link with the Silver Arrows

The only problem is the reappearance of Ganon, but, wait, that's an inevitable problem if you include both LoZ and ALttP in a timeline. Those who argue what I argue with OoT being the IW with TWW in-between can argue the same for OoT-LoZ-ALttP, and those who argue that OoT is not the IW can do so happily.

What's the problem?

There's two. TWW and TP.

[LionHarted]

Really? I would think TWW and TP closing the door on the OoT story make it all the more unnecessary for ALttP to precede LoZ.

[CID Farwin]

Wait, how does OoT-ALttP even effect ALttP-LoZ?

[LionHarted]

Wait, how does OoT-ALttP even effect ALttP-LoZ?

If OoT is the IW, and ALttP has to follow the IW, and ALttP does not immediately follow OoT (which TWW and TP seem to make the case), then there's no reason why LoZ can't be before ALttP. The order was originally refuted because it screwed with the player-assumed OoT-ALttP connection and because of the box text of ALttP.

Originally, looking at it objectively, LoZ was likely not to be before ALttP because ALttP told the origins of the Triforce and Ganon. Now OoT does this, so LoZ just has to be after OoT.

Edited by LionHarted, 20 July 2007 - 12:56 PM.

[CID Farwin]

If OoT is the IW, and ALttP has to follow the IW, and ALttP does not immediately follow OoT (which TWW and TP seem to make the case), then there's no reason why LoZ can't be before ALttP. The order was originally refuted because it screwed with the player-assumed OoT-ALttP connection and because of the box text of ALttP.

Originally, looking at it objectively, LoZ was likely not to be before ALttP because ALttP told the origins of the Triforce and Ganon. Now OoT does this, so LoZ just has to be after OoT.

Oh, I just remembered. In the official player's guide for OoT it states ALttP to be the prequel of LoZ.*pretty sure*

[LionHarted]

Oh, I just remembered. In the official player's guide for OoT it states ALttP to be the prequel of LoZ.*pretty sure*

The official player's guide is not written by Nintendo, but by a Nintendo-owned magazine. Of course, by the same token, the TP player's guide says that Ganondorf is known as the King of Evil, a title he gained in OoT when he took over Hyrule with the Triforce of Power, which supposedly didn't happen in a "child timeline." Does the official player's guide prove TP follows Adult OoT?

The official website also claimed for the longest time that there was one Link, despite the box text saying otherwise.

Edited by LionHarted, 20 July 2007 - 01:12 PM.

[CID Farwin]

The official player's guide is not written by Nintendo, but by a Nintendo-owned magazine. Of course, by the same token, the TP player's guide says that Ganondorf is known as the King of Evil, a title he gained in OoT when he took over Hyrule with the Triforce of Power, which supposedly didn't happen in a "child timeline." Does the official player's guide prove TP follows Adult OoT?

Player's Guides are written for the convenience of the player, not as almanacs of Hyrule. The player knows Ganondorf as the King of Evil, so it calls him such. It says that ALttP preceds LoZ to help the player understand how the games fit together.

The official website also claimed for the longest time that there was one Link, despite the box text saying otherwise.

The website is also run by MORE THAN ONE PERSON! none of which actually worked on the games. It's also possible for two people to have differing opinions. We are not borg.

Edited by CID Farwin, 20 July 2007 - 01:26 PM.

[LionHarted]

The website is also run by MORE THAN ONE PERSON! none of which actually worked on the games.

-substitutes "player's guide" for "website"-

[CID Farwin]

-substitutes "player's guide" for "website"-

website=changeable
player's guide=unchangeable.

If a website has information deemed "wrong" they can simply change it. If a Player's Guide says something wrong, they have to correct it in a newer one. Since that hasn't happened, and with no reason to believe otherwise, I will deem this information as "accurate."

[LionHarted]

website=changeable
player's guide=unchangeable.

Both = fallible.

Although, while we're on that subject, the VC version of OoT maintains that it is the first story. What does this say for TMC-is-first-ers? (Or is it meaningless, like I propose the player's guide timeline is?)

Edited by LionHarted, 20 July 2007 - 01:41 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Both = fallible.

Although, while we're on that subject, the VC version of OoT maintains that it is the first story. What does this say for TMC-is-first-ers? (Or is it meaningless, like I propose the player's guide timeline is?)

YOU=fallible
ME=fallible
EVERYONE=fallible
guess what?
NINTENDO=FALLIBLE
which is why NO TIMELINE IS PERFECT!

It means that TMC could go a number of places. OoT is the only game that irrefutably goes before every other MAIN game. As far as most average gamers are concerned, it is first.

[Person]

Except that the website, VC, and player's guide were written by NoA.
But I believe that the "nail in the coffin" for the Miyamoto order is that he said that La could go anywhere. Since it obviously follows ALttP, I stopped listening right there.

[LionHarted]

Except that the website, VC, and player's guide were written by NoA.

Website and VC were.
Player's guides written by Nintendo Power, owned by NoA.

[Person]

Exactly. So we shouldn't use them.

[CID Farwin]

have they been contradicted? is there reason to believe differently?