147 replies to this topic

[Person]

The LA DX box said nothing about Ocarina of Time or anything like that. It just mentions stuff about his quest to wake the Wind Fish. However, we shouldn't discount a box that says the same thing in both English and Japanese. And, as I have stated before, putting LoZ before ALttP opens a whole bunch of plotholes. Plus, the Links from LoZ and ALttP come from entirely different countries, so a "one Link" rationalization for the theory doesn't make sense.

[SOAP]

It only opens plotholes if you still c;ling to belief that OoT is the IW. Which is no longer possible thanks to TWW and TP.

[LionHarted]

It only opens plotholes if you still c;ling to belief that OoT is the IW.

It opens plotholes to place the IW anywhere but OoT if you take the ALttP manual to be in any way canonical, since both versions of the manual suggest (and the GBA one necessitates) a seamless progression of events from creation to the IW, without any movement of the Triforce in-between.

Edited by LionHarted, 29 July 2007 - 03:27 PM.

[SOAP]

It only opens plotholes if you still c;ling to belief that OoT is the IW.

It opens plotholes to place the IW anywhere but OoT if you take the ALttP manual to be in any way canonical, since both versions of the manual suggest (and the GBA one necessitates) a seamless progression of events from creation to the IW, without any movement of the Triforce in-between.

It opens plotholes to place the IW on any game ta all, OoT included. Why can't it be an event that takes places before ALttP with no ties to any other game except ALttP? Like how the Hero Man story is to TMC, the flood is to TWW, and Ganon's execution by the Sages is to the TP. Some of these can happen after other games but they've never been featured in any known games or even hinted at. Why can't backstories just be...w el, backstories?

If that's not obvious enough for you, this is how I see it:

Games that preceeed ALttP ----> IW --> ALttP ----> Games that come after ALttP.

Edited by SOAP, 29 July 2007 - 04:06 PM.

[Person]

The plotholes I was referring to were: How did Ganon steal the Triforce from the Sacred Realm if it was in the North Castle?
How is he stuck inside the Sacred Realm in ALttP when he dies in LoZ?
How is Hyrule destroyed from Civil Wars in LoZ but has been at peace for a while in ALttP?
Etc.

Not really IW plotholes, but general ones.

[SOAP]

The plotholes I was referring to were: How did Ganon steal the Triforce from the Sacred Realm if it was in the North Castle?
How is he stuck inside the Sacred Realm in ALttP when he dies in LoZ?
How is Hyrule destroyed from Civil Wars in LoZ but has been at peace for a while in ALttP?
Etc.

Not really IW plotholes, but general ones.

Aside from the first one, which could be explained by the Triforce being moved there and it returned there by it's own will (maybe after when Link or Zelda died and it no longer had a master to serve) and placing the IW before ALttP but after any games that proceed ALttP, none of those are plotholes. Nearly every game starts off peaceful until some evil comes along. It could be a result of the Golden Age Hyrule went into after the Triforce was reunited in AoL. But I think ALttP's peaceful begining has more to do with the advent of Afganhim more than anything else. And Ganon dies all the time, only to be revived or reincarnated later on.

[LionHarted]

Why can't it be an event that takes places before ALttP with no ties to any other game except ALttP?

Because both it and OoT claim that the Triforce never left the Sacred Realm since the creation; that it was still resting there by the time the events began to unfold.


How did Ganon steal the Triforce from the Sacred Realm if it was in the North Castle?
I thought the Triforce returned to the Sacred Realm after being wished upon.

How is he stuck inside the Sacred Realm in ALttP when he dies in LoZ?
"The one who rediscovered the Sacred Realm was Ganondorf the thief. Fortunately, he couldn't figure out how to return to the world of light." Going with the assumption that the creators are right, and OoT is the IW, this would become a separate event by default, rather than the IW being separate from OoT. Doesn't explain how he's alive again, but, then again, FSA manages that for us in the here and now. Better question would be how is Ganon alive in LoZ at all.

How is Hyrule destroyed from Civil Wars in LoZ but has been at peace for a while in ALttP?
Prior to Agahnim's arrival, Hyrule is at peace.
Post-LoZ/AoL, Hyrule is at peace.
Where's the plothole?

Edited by LionHarted, 29 July 2007 - 04:42 PM.

[Fyxe]

Um yes it does.

Oh, I'm sorry. Dear me, how silly of me. I thought it didn't, but you have opened my eyes, and I see the light. o.o

How many times has the whole developement team worked towrads a certian direction whether it be storyline, gameplay, graphics or whatever, only for Miyamoto to come in and "Upend the teatable."

You do realise this happens BEFORE release, right? And 99% of the time this is something to do with gameplay, as Aonuma has said.

The whole developement team might have their own ideas and Miyamoto may not have as much interest in a overall storyline as they do but at the end of the day Miyamoto has the final say.

No he doesn't, actually. The TEAM make the game. One paraphrased interview response does not a whole game make.

[SOAP]

Why can't it be an event that takes places before ALttP with no ties to any other game except ALttP?

Because both it and OoT claim that the Triforce never left the Sacred Realm since the creation; that it was still resting there by the time the events began to unfold.

Where are you people getting this from? The Triforce started out in the Sacred Realm and later on people found it there. There's nothing to say that it's never been moved from the Sacred Realm between those two points in time. I was born in Puerto Rico. Twenty years later, I'm in Peurto Rico. Does that mean I never left the island? No. Same goes for the Triforce. In fact it would be ridiculus to say that no one has ever claimed the Triforce ever in Hyrule's history besides in the in IW. We at least know the Twili came close to snagging it way before Ganondorf came into the picture. So we know the Sacred Realm has at least been braeched before. If taht's possible, then the Triforce could've been taken from the Sacred Realm many many times throughout Hyrule's history. In fact I can't see how that couldn't have happened? How else would people know so much about it or even what it looks like if no one has ever seen outside the Sacred Realm prior to OoT?

I thought the Triforce returned to the Sacred Realm after being wished upon.

Actually it stays with it's master till his or her death. After taht, it's never said what happens to it but I think the logical solution is that it goes back to the Sacred Realm. I believe taht after AoL, Link became the Triforce's master, ushering a new Golden Age in Hyrule. Then he died and the Triforce returned to the Sacred Realm. Nothing about taht contradicts having the IW occur after that.

[Hero of Legend]

Actually it stays with it's master till his or her death. After taht, it's never said what happens to it but I think the logical solution is that it goes back to the Sacred Realm.

Except it was passed on by the royal family in AoL. Which means it would make sense if ALttP Link started the tradition, and the then the AoL BS stuff happened sometime afterwards, rather than the other way around.

[MikePetersSucks]

Actually it stays with it's master till his or her death. After taht, it's never said what happens to it but I think the logical solution is that it goes back to the Sacred Realm. I believe taht after AoL, Link became the Triforce's master, ushering a new Golden Age in Hyrule. Then he died and the Triforce returned to the Sacred Realm. Nothing about taht contradicts having the IW occur after that.

With the exception of the royal family, it seems that the Triforce is kept in the Sacred Realm when not in use, Master or otherwise.

[Person]

The manual for LoZ says that Ganon invaded Hyrule just before the game and stole the ToP. If LoZ happens right after OoT, he wouldn't need to steal it, because he would've already had it.

[LionHarted]

Where are you people getting this from?

Original manual tells of legends of the Hylia, who inherited the Triforce/creation myth, and these legends were said to have inspired people to hunt for the Triforce. Makes no sense to include this detail unless the Triforce never left after creation. GBA manual says plainly that the Triforce was still resting in the Sacred Realm (after telling the creation story) when the Sacred Realm was opened.

The manual for LoZ says that Ganon invaded Hyrule just before the game and stole the ToP.

LoZ prologue: "Many years ago the Prince of Darkness "Ganon" stole the Triforce of Power."

Edited by LionHarted, 30 July 2007 - 02:40 AM.

[Fyxe]

With the exception of the royal family, it seems that the Triforce is kept in the Sacred Realm when not in use, Master or otherwise.

Where are you getting this from? The only indication that the whole Triforce with a master sits in the Sacred Realm is in ALttP, and that's because Ganon can't get out.

After touching the Triforce in OoT, there's no indication that it ever went back to the Sacred Realm/Evil Realm unless it's with Ganon himself.

[Hero of Legend]

LoZ prologue: "Many years ago the Prince of Darkness "Ganon" stole the Triforce of Power."

Never mind the fact that the whole story is told in past tence and that Ganon is said to have stolen the ToP when he invaded Hyrule and kidnapped Zelda just previous to the start of the game.

Where are you getting this from? The only indication that the whole Triforce with a master sits in the Sacred Realm is in ALttP, and that's because Ganon can't get out.

Well, it certainly doesn't stay put when you make a wish. And the last we see of it in ALttP is in the Sacred Realm, so it is kind of implied.

[Fyxe]

Well, it certainly doesn't stay put when you make a wish.

Actually, that's only the case in TWW (and keeping it around for Ganon to just nab it isn't smart) and OoT when Ganondorf touched it, because it split. There's no indication that making a wish normally sends it scattering.

And the last we see of it in ALttP is in the Sacred Realm, so it is kind of implied.

Eh? The last we see it in ALttP is in the Dark World because Link had just touched it. That doesn't imply anything whatsoever.

Oh, and just to remind everyone, the whole Triforce sits in Hyrule Castle in the Oracle games, and at some point in Zelda II's backstory, and presumably sticks around after Zelda II's ending.

There's even a hint that the Triforce is hidden within Hyrule Castle in FSA, but that might not be the case. Still a possible implication, though.

[Hero of Legend]

Actually, that's only the case in TWW (and keeping it around for Ganon to just nab it isn't smart) and OoT when Ganondorf touched it, because it split. There's no indication that making a wish normally sends it scattering.

Except it also happens in AoL. And arguably ALttP. Which makes it every game it's been used in.

Eh? The last we see it in ALttP is in the Dark World because Link had just touched it. That doesn't imply anything whatsoever.

After Link returned to Hyrule, yes. And since it’s not with him, what's it doing there?

Well, apparently it’s turning the Dark World back into the SR, but maybe that's just me.

Oh, and just to remind everyone, the whole Triforce sits in Hyrule Castle in the Oracle games, and at some point in Zelda II's backstory, and presumably sticks around after Zelda II's ending.

Oh, I'm not saying it doesn't return eventually. Just that wish granting shit makes it go away.

There's even a hint that the Triforce is hidden within Hyrule Castle in FSA, but that might not be the case. Still a possible implication, though.

Eh, glowing emblems don't really imply anything much other than a door opening...

Edited by Hero of Legend, 30 July 2007 - 07:46 AM.

[Fyxe]

Actually, that's only the case in TWW (and keeping it around for Ganon to just nab it isn't smart) and OoT when Ganondorf touched it, because it split. There's no indication that making a wish normally sends it scattering.

Except it also happens in AoL. And arguably ALttP. Which makes it every game it's been used in.

I don't remember it happening in AoL, but I'll take your word for it for now. But there's no indication that it happens in ALttP.

After Link returned to Hyrule, yes. And since it’s not with him, what's it doing there?

Eh? We don't know what Link does with the Triforce after wishing on it. Now, he could leave it in the Sacred Realm, but given that it was intended as a prequel to TLoZ and AoL, it'd make more sense if he took it with him and kept it in Hyrule Castle (which would leave it there for the Oracle games in future).

Well, apparently it’s turning the Dark World back into the SR, but maybe that's just me.

I think that's just a symbolic thing, much like Link and Zelda standing in the 'sky' at the end of OoT.

On a side note, in InS (that's gonna get hard to get used to) Ganon doesn't appear to have the Triforce, despite being in the Dark World.

Oh, I'm not saying it doesn't return eventually. Just that wish granting shit makes it go away.

I'd say it's more of a dramatic effect than a necessity. In TWW there's a clear reason for it vanishing anyway; if it stayed there, Ganondorf could steal it from Daphnes and kill them all.

Eh, glowing emblems don't really imply anything much other than a door opening...

I don't think there was a door opening at the time though, it seemed like a nod to the player saying 'yep, Zelda is checking on the Triforce'. At least that's a possible explanation. It could merely be a symbolic thing, of course.

[LionHarted]

Never mind the fact that the whole story is told in past tence and that Ganon is said to have stolen the ToP when he invaded Hyrule and kidnapped Zelda just previous to the start of the game.

I'm referring to the in-game story, which is not told completely in past-tense. It tells the story, then charges you, Link, with saving her and collecting the shards of Wisdom.

Actually, that's only the case in TWW (and keeping it around for Ganon to just nab it isn't smart) and OoT when Ganondorf touched it, because it split. There's no indication that making a wish normally sends it scattering.

1) TWW didn't necessarily have it "scatter." It had the entire thing vacate itself from Daphnes' possession. At this point Daphnes couldn't have been dead, because otherwise he couldn't have had his wish granted to begin with, so that explanation is out. So we defer to the alternative; that it simply doesn't remain with you beyond granting your wish, when you make a wish on the full, united thing.

2) "Keeping it around" would imply that it could be used, in which case Ganon nabbing it seems like a silly thing to worry about.

I don't remember it happening in AoL, but I'll take your word for it for now. But there's no indication that it happens in ALttP.

1) The Triforce disappears after being wished on in AoL.
2) The scene fades before you see what became of the Triforce in ALttP. Notably you never see it outside. There's no indication that it ever left the SR; I would go so far as to say that claiming that it did is patent fanfiction.

On a side note, in InS (that's gonna get hard to get used to) Ganon doesn't appear to have the Triforce, despite being in the Dark World.

Is he in the "Sacred Realm", or just the "Dark World"?

In TWW there's a clear reason for it vanishing anyway; if it stayed there, Ganondorf could steal it from Daphnes and kill them all.

If it stayed there, Daphnes could pwn Ganon with it.
I think it's a rather moot point.

Edited by LionHarted, 30 July 2007 - 09:55 AM.

[Person]

InS could happen just a little while after ALttP, when the Sacred Realm hasn't transformed back yet. The Triforce says that it will turn back to normal eventually, but not right away.

THe LoZ manual is told from the sense that it's telling an ancient legend, and then shifts to "you are the player, you have to beat this bad guy." If Ganon had stolen the Triforce years before the story, why would Impa be running away and warning Link that Ganon had just stolen the ToP?

[Fyxe]

So we defer to the alternative; that it simply doesn't remain with you beyond granting your wish, when you make a wish on the full, united thing.

Or that omg he did it on purpose.

"Keeping it around" would imply that it could be used, in which case Ganon nabbing it seems like a silly thing to worry about.

Well, shit, if you're going to go down that route, why didn't he just wish that Ganon was dead in the first place? The Triforce doesn't work that way. Ganondorf is a threat, Triforce or not, and if Daphnes could just sneakily touch the Triforce before him, then what's stopping Ganon doing the same or simply gutting Daphnes on the spot? You can remain the master of the Triforce even if you wish on it, and the Triforce does not make the weilder invincible.

2) The scene fades before you see what became of the Triforce in ALttP. Notably you never see it outside. There's no indication that it ever left the SR; I would go so far as to say that claiming that it did is patent fanfiction.

Cock off, if you read the rest of my fucking post you'd see why it's perfectly logical. Learn to bloody read before you throw claims of fanfiction around.

Is he in the "Sacred Realm", or just the "Dark World"?

He's in Ganon's Tower on Death Mountain in the Dark World we recognise from ALttP (albiet we only see a very small portion of it in InS, it could be all there is).

[LionHarted]

Or that omg he did it on purpose.

While it wouldn't be the first time the game failed to clarify what happened to the Triforce, I think guessing that he did it on purpose is unnecessary when we already have it disappearing/returning to its resting place after being united/touched in AoL and ALttP.

Well, shit, if you're going to go down that route, why didn't he just wish that Ganon was dead in the first place?

He did.

He wished for Ganon to die in the coming flood.

Double-whammy.

You can remain the master of the Triforce even if you wish on it, and the Triforce does not make the weilder invincible.

1) We've never seen someone actually continue to use the full Triforce after obtaining it.
2) We've never seen someone actually possess the whole Triforce for longer than it takes to touch it.

Cock off, if you read the rest of my fucking post you'd see why it's perfectly logical.

If it's perfectly logical to assume things outside of what is seen because it helps connect games together, then by golly, none of us are wrong.

He's in Ganon's Tower on Death Mountain in the Dark World we recognise from ALttP

Ganon had transformed the Sacred Realm into the Dark World.

[Hero of Legend]

I'm referring to the in-game story, which is not told completely in past-tense. It tells the story, then charges you, Link, with saving her and collecting the shards of Wisdom.

Of course you are. It doesn't change anything because we know only the manual tells the full story, but still.

Eh? We don't know what Link does with the Triforce after wishing on it. Now, he could leave it in the Sacred Realm, but given that it was intended as a prequel to TLoZ and AoL, it'd make more sense if he took it with him and kept it in Hyrule Castle (which would leave it there for the Oracle games in future).

Let's just say I agree with you on that.

Ganondorf is a threat, Triforce or not, and if Daphnes could just sneakily touch the Triforce before him, then what's stopping Ganon doing the same or simply gutting Daphnes on the spot?

Well, if you notice, everyone kinda frezes when DNH makes his wish. So I doubt Ganondorf could do anything. Which explains why he didn't.

Or that omg he did it on purpose.

That seems unlikely. Then again, we know for a fact a person remains the Triforce's master until the day he dies, and as such presumably can summon it at will.

[Fyxe]

I think guessing that he did it on purpose is unnecessary when we already have it disappearing/returning to its resting place after being united/touched in AoL and ALttP.

Once again, pulling the 'Triforce disappears in ALttP' thing out of your butt. And the Triforce disappearing and scattering might mean absolutely nothing other than dramatic effect, to be honest. The behavior of the Triforce isn't exactly consistent throughout the series. In Zelda II it disappears, this could mean anything, it could simply be a dramatic effect, it could be going into Link's body, it could be waiting outside while Link and Zelda get it on, who knows. In ALttP we have NO IDEA what it does, and no prescedant for it to do anything, we can only guess based on what we know about the series at the time.

On a side note, in the Oracle games it's shown in Hyrule Castle and floating in the air as well in seperate pieces. So y'know, just because the Triforce does something odd doesn't mean it has to be chickening out to the Sacred Realm all the time.

He did.

He wished for Ganon to die in the coming flood.

Double-whammy.

I meant he didn't wish for him to die on the spot.

1) We've never seen someone actually continue to use the full Triforce after obtaining it.

What do you think Ganon was doing with it? Sitting in the Dark World and dribbling?

2) We've never seen someone actually possess the whole Triforce for longer than it takes to touch it.

We have. 'Possess' does not mean 'touching at all times'. Ganon owns the Triforce throughout ALttP. It's under his control, he is the master of it, the Triforce itself states this.

If it's perfectly logical to assume things outside of what is seen because it helps connect games together, then by golly, none of us are wrong.

...Way to miss the point. Stop being a goddang idiot.

Ganon had transformed the Sacred Realm into the Dark World.

WELL FUCK, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT, DURRRR. Once again, this is the original point, and this is the top of your head, and this is the noise that occurs. WHOOSH.

And HoL, I presume that once things 'unfroze' Ganon could do something, and this is why Daphnes might purposely send the Triforce away. Much like how he himself disappears. Bloody coward.

Edited by Fyxe, 30 July 2007 - 07:12 PM.

[LionHarted]

Once again, pulling the 'Triforce disappears in ALttP' thing out of your butt.

Well, it's either I go with what's seen in the other two games (AoL: it disappears; TWW: it flies away), as well as what's shown in ALttP (it was in the Sacred Realm for the entire game, as far as visuals tell us) or I guess that something different happens.

On a side note, in the Oracle games it's shown in Hyrule Castle and floating in the air as well in seperate pieces. So y'know, just because the Triforce does something odd doesn't mean it has to be chickening out to the Sacred Realm all the time.

How do you know it wasn't returning to the Sacred Realm then as well?

I meant he didn't wish for him to die on the spot.

Of course.

Because he wished for the flood.

What do you think Ganon was doing with it? Sitting in the Dark World and dribbling?

Pretty much. As far as I know, he'd already made his wish. He was just building up his power, and it was sitting in the room in the Pyramid. Note that it never left his body when he died. It was simply waiting for you in the next room.

Ganon owns the Triforce throughout ALttP. It's under his control, he is the master of it, the Triforce itself states this.

Actually, it doesn't. It states that now that you've defeated him, the Dark World will vanish. Then it states that it is waiting for a new owner, and beckons for you to touch it.

...Way to miss the point.

Way to ignore it.

[Person]

Actually, it doesn't. It states that now that you've defeated him, the Dark World will vanish. Then it states that it is waiting for a new owner, and beckons for you to touch it.

1. Ganon has it and he used it to make his wish.
2. The Triforce will grant the wish and serve its master until he dies.
3. Ganon just died, and the Triforce invites Link to become its new master.

Q.E.D. Ganon owns the Triforce in ALttP, even though he stole it.

[LionHarted]

1. Ganon has it and he used it to make his wish.
2. The Triforce will grant the wish and serve its master until he dies.
3. Ganon just died, and the Triforce invites Link to become its new master.

1) Ganon does not have it. It is never seen on his person. One must touch it to use its power.
2) The Triforce will grant the wishes of the person who touches it as long as that person is alive. [NOTE: Immediately afterward: "Now that Ganon has fallen, the Dark World will vanish."]
3) The Triforce invites Link to become its new master, but how do we know that it hadn't been waiting ever since Ganon made his wish?

[Person]

Because it's in Ganon's fortress, guarded by him? And we're told that he took it in the backstory, and that he wished on it for the Sacred Realm to be the Dark World. By granting the wish, Ganon becomes its master.
Ganon owned it in ALttP until Link killed him, and then Link became its new master.

Edited by Person, 30 July 2007 - 11:03 PM.

[LionHarted]

Because it's in Ganon's fortress, guarded by him? And we're told that he took it in the backstory, and that he wished on it for the Sacred Realm to be the Dark World. By granting the wish, Ganon becomes its master.
Ganon owned it in ALttP until Link killed him, and then Link became its new master.

I understand this; I do not think that it is correct to say that we can assume the Triforce will continue to serve its owner (i.e., will grant more wishes?, do other things besides grant the initial wish, etc. etc.) until he dies, but, rather, that it will not serve a new master until the owner dies.

[CID Farwin]

The Triforce grants the wishes of whoever first touches it.