130 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

That is struck down by the simple fact that Zelda HAS THE ToW IN OOT!!!! NOBODY ELSE HAS IT!!!

Zelda is not the only one to have it in TWW. Therefore at some point between OoT and TWW, she gave a piece of it to someone else: the king.

When the flood happened, Tetra's ancestor split her ToW into two parts and gave one to the king. Make more sense?

That's a fanmade explanation, just like mine. I could just as easily say "after OoT", Tetra's ancestor split her ToW into two parts and gave one to the king, which he used to rule and passed on to his son, the prince.

Everything you mentioned above was complicated by Nintendo, not by me. You needlessly messed up the Sleeping Zelda story.

The first thing I mentioned was yours. The Sacred Realm is sealed in OoT; the Sacred Realm seal is broken in ALttP. Ganondorf deaths and whatnot notwithstanding. That's the simplest IW picture.




On-topic question:

Did the Dark World disappear only because Ganon was dead, or because the Triforce intended for Link's righteous wish to cleanse it?

Edited by LionHarted, 06 June 2007 - 03:53 PM.

[Person]

Your explanation for the Sleeping Zelda is still stupid, but nevertheless we're back on topic.

The Dark World disappeared because Ganon wasn't around anymore. That's how I see it.

BTW, I used my IW explanation because I don't think that the Sacred Realm was sealed in the Child OoT. It was sealed in the adult OoT only. So I use FSA to explain the ALttP seal.

Edited by Person, 06 June 2007 - 04:54 PM.

[Chaltab]

BTW, I used my IW explanation because I don't think that the Sacred Realm was sealed in the Child OoT. It was sealed in the adult OoT only. So I use FSA to explain the ALttP seal.

But the only 'seal' per say in FSA was Ganon being trapped within the Four Sword. The Sacred Realm itself wasn't affected.

[Person]

Interesting, Chaltab. But the game says that Ganon has been stuck inside the Dark World since the IW. Since we've got him mucking about in the Light World in about every sequel to OoT, I don;t think that the OoT seal is in ALttP.

[SL the Pyro]

^ Agreed. There are some games that don't even mention a form of the Dark World, like OoX (unless you count the Room of Rites) and the first Legend of Zelda, that Ganon is seen in.

Edited by Shadow_Link, 07 June 2007 - 09:20 AM.

[Person]

Exactly. I think that it's a misconception to think that the seal in OoT lasted until ALttP, especially since Ganon busts out of it every other game. That, and my theory postulates that the seal never happened in the Child timeline.

Those who think that FSA can't be the IW usually overlook the fact that the Dark World is in FSA, sugesting that Ganon has been to the Sacred Realm and back. The FSA Dark World provides the perfect explanation for the evil powers coming from the sacred realm. The realm was sealed, and Ganon happened to be stuck inside of it. Accoriding to the maidens, this seal wasn't broken until ALttP, and Ganon's been stuck inside the Dark World since the IW.

Therefore, sticking TWW or any other game that features Ganon in the light world between the IW (whether it be OoT or some other event) and ALttP is ludicrous.

Edited by Person, 07 June 2007 - 09:54 AM.

[SL the Pyro]

...I'm probably gonna sound mighty stupid now, but WHAT DOES IW STAND FOR!? I can decipher every single acronym used except for that one... perhaps if I knew what it was, I could understand this better.

[Arturo]

Imprisoning War, the name the (horrible) NOA translation gave to the Seal War (SW) told in the ALttP Manual, which tells the story of Ganon's sealing by the seven Sages.

[Duke Serkol]

the (horrible) NOA translation

Could be worse. A LOT worse.

In the specific, I personally like "Imprisoning War" more than "Seal War"... but then I like "War of (the) Sealing" better than both of those.

[Arturo]

Yes. It could be the Spanish translation of ALttP Manual, which called the SW "Guerra Carcelaria", which translates roughhly as "Jail War".

[Person]

Seriously?? Jail War??

Ah, you kooky Spaniards!

[Arturo]

I suspect that it wasn't a Spaniard who translated that, because there are some basic grammar mistakes and Nintendo of Spain didn't exist at that moment. The NOA Localization was horrible, but the NOE was even worse. Let me show you:

Attached Files

•  Guerra_carcelaria.JPG   36.25K   14 downloads

[SL the Pyro]

Now, I don't remember a Triforce piece being the shape of a triangle-base pyramid... take a close look to the right of the golden triangle and you'll see what I mean.

And thanks for clearing that IW thing up.

[Person]

Okay... Why did they leave "Golden Land" in English while they translated "Trifuerza" and "Espada Maestra?"

Yeah. Probably some dude who took 5 hours of night school in Spanish.

[MikePetersSucks]

Now, I don't remember a Triforce piece being the shape of a triangle-base pyramid... take a close look to the right of the golden triangle and you'll see what I mean.

That wasn't the Triforce, it was a physical representation of the Seal.

[Chaltab]

Those who think that FSA can't be the IW usually overlook the fact that the Dark World is in FSA, sugesting that Ganon has been to the Sacred Realm and back. The FSA Dark World provides the perfect explanation for the evil powers coming from the sacred realm. The realm was sealed, and Ganon happened to be stuck inside of it. [/quote]

FSA alone doesn't adequately explain the IW, though. It has nothing to do with the Triforce, just as Ocarina of Time has nothing to do with the Knights of Hyrule. Hence, my theory similar to yours that both OOT and FSA were 'obscured by the mists of time and became legend', eventually being told as a single story of The Imprisoning War. Ganondorf never broke the original seal. He got around it, was killed, reincarnated, and sealed in the Four Sword, and finally tried to break it once he got his hands on the full Triforce.

[quote]Accoriding to the maidens, this seal wasn't broken until ALttP, and Ganon's been stuck inside the Dark World since the IW.

Therefore, sticking TWW or any other game that features Ganon in the light world between the IW (whether it be OoT or some other event) and ALttP is ludicrous.[/quote]

Not ludicrous. It just requires an assumption, which is that Ganondorf managed to escape the Sacred Realm without breaking the seal, the difference between going through a window and breaking down the door.

[SL the Pyro]

I'll throw in some more proof of the FSA -> ALttP connection. We can't forget about the Trident weapon. It's only appeared in FSA and ALttP as far as I know (the only other game it could possibly be in is the first LoZ, which I don't know because I haven't beat it... yet); we find out that he got it in FSA, and he already had it in ALttP. It even had it's fire producing abilities in both games (the fire is different colours in different games, I know, but that's old-to-new style graphics for you). The lack of the lightning was probably due to the fact that Ganon in FSA uses it to teleport you to the Dark World when you fight him; you're already in the Dark World when you fight Ganon in ALttP, and since the attack never damaged you to begin with, it'd be useless in the Dark World. Ganon probably just doesn't use it in ALttP.

In short; the Trident further proves the connection between FSA and ALttP. Just thought I'd throw that into the mix.

Now, I don't remember a Triforce piece being the shape of a triangle-base pyramid... take a close look to the right of the golden triangle and you'll see what I mean.

That wasn't the Triforce, it was a physical representation of the Seal.

Err... what? I thought the seal was some kind of rug-tile thing. View the ALttP intro (SNES or GBA) for that.

Edited by Shadow_Link, 08 June 2007 - 12:31 PM.

[Fyxe]

I'll throw in some more proof of the FSA -> ALttP connection. We can't forget about the Trident weapon. It's only appeared in FSA and ALttP as far as I know (the only other game it could possibly be in is the first LoZ, which I don't know because I haven't beat it... yet); we find out that he got it in FSA, and he already had it in ALttP. It even had it's fire producing abilities in both games (the fire is different colours in different games, I know, but that's old-to-new style graphics for you). The lack of the lightning was probably due to the fact that Ganon in FSA uses it to teleport you to the Dark World when you fight him; you're already in the Dark World when you fight Ganon in ALttP, and since the attack never damaged you to begin with, it'd be useless in the Dark World. Ganon probably just doesn't use it in ALttP.

In short; the Trident further proves the connection between FSA and ALttP. Just thought I'd throw that into the mix.

The trident was used by Ganon in the Oracle games, along with the remake of the original Zelda (BS Zelda). A very similar trident was also used by Phantom Ganon in OoT. Obviously BS Zelda is uncanon because it's a remake, but the Oracles and OoT are. FSA uses the trident as an explaination for how Ganondorf becomes the King of Darkness - implying that the 'ancient demon' that Zelda talks about had its power sealed in the trident. Rather than prove that FSA comes before ALttP, this implies the exact opposite.

In the context of FSA, it doesn't make sense as the Imprisoning War. Has everyone forgotten how OoT ended? Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm/Golden Land/Dark World. In FSA, the game begins with a new Ganondorf, and Ganon is 'reborn', meaning he had to be dead in the first place. Now, while this could feasibly follow TP, there is the issue of Ganon's spirit implied to being within the trident, meaning that the Ganon that died would have been the demon using the trident. In TP, he was human when he died and was using the Sage's sword of light. Also, it doesn't explain where Ganon gets the Triforce from, as he dies at the end of TP and does not obtain the Triforce in FSA.

Plus there's a variety of other inaccuracies between FSA and the Imprisoning War, such as the lack of Master Sword, lack of Sages, only four Knights of Hyrule (hardly a 'family of knights'), Ganon's origin and his wish, and of course his sealing within the Four Sword.

Err... what? I thought the seal was some kind of rug-tile thing. View the ALttP intro (SNES or GBA) for that.

In the ALttP manual, the depiction of the seal shows a pyramid shape.

In the intro, the image you're thinking of is the Sacred Realm being opened by Ganon and his followers, I believe (the 'rug-tile thing' is clearly one of the warp tiles we see in ALttP).

Edited by Fyxe, 08 June 2007 - 01:44 PM.

[Person]

It's never implied that Ganon's spirit is inside the Trident. It's just some evil spirit that isn't elaborated upon. Plus, Phantom Ganon's trident just up and disappears when you beat him. It's probably a different one.

Also, FSA may not make sense as the IW per se, but it makes perfect sense as ALttP's backstory. If FSA is a sequel to ALttP, there is no logical way how the Four Sword got into the Dark World. Plus, the Dark World was destroyed in ALttP, so it can't be in any sequels.

The only things that suggest a Dark World in LoZ or AoL are vague references to the "underworld" which probably means something other than a sacred realm.

Also, the knights are an integral part of the IW story. And they are nowhere to be found in OoT. They are in FSA. Just because there are only four does not discourage the "family of knights" description. The titles could be hereditary, and they could be brothers or cousins or something.

If I recall correctly, was the Master Sword ever described in the GBA rerelease story of the IW? I don't think it was in there, but correct me if I'm wrong.

And as I said before, the presence of the Dark World in FSA implies that Ganon has already been to the sacred realm and back. Plus, the OoT seal was broken by TWW Ganondorf. He didn't merely "circumvent" the seal.

[Arturo]

Fyxe, I love you. Seriously.

[Person]

Okay, after consulting a manual and a text dump, I found out that the Master Sword has been completely removed from the IW story. No mention of the Master Sword in the GBA manual or in the game in relation to being used to seal Ganon. Also, I found some proof for Ganon having to be inside the Dark World since the IW:

The one who rediscovered
the Golden Land was
an evil thief named Ganondorf.
Luckily, he couldn't figure out
how to return to the Light
World...

The presence of the knights in FSA also puts it before ALttP. The knihts died fighting off Ganon, just like in FSA. Link is their last descendant.

[Duke Serkol]

Now, I don't remember a Triforce piece being the shape of a triangle-base pyramid... take a close look to the right of the golden triangle and you'll see what I mean.

That wasn't the Triforce, it was a physical representation of the Seal.

Jesus... I never ever thought of that. I always throught it was a metaphorical representation of the Triforce being sealed away with Ganon.
But now that I'm shown it in this light, it makes a lot of sense (I mean that would have been the only official art with a non-flat triforce), especially since in FSA the seal placed onto the Four Swords and Ganon is a small pyramid! (And the file name of that image within the game is apparently triforce... but I don't think that means much).

The only things that suggest a Dark World in LoZ or AoL are vague references to the "underworld" which probably means something other than a sacred realm.

Someone's forgetting about the final battle in Oracles...

Edited by Duke Serkol, 08 June 2007 - 06:30 PM.

[Showsni]

Frankly, events like the IW and SZ stories work a lot better as standalone events that aren't related to any games. What's the point in stretching canon to try and equate two mildly similar events, when you can remove any inconsistencies by letting them stand as they were originally intended?

The "two kings" idea for SZ is just silly. I mean, it clearly flies in the face of all intent and logic. That said, SZ should come as early as possible - it gives its name to the whole series, and explains the naming tradition. I wouldn't be comfortable putting it anywhere later than after one game, and even that's not perfect.

The IW works best as something which isn't OoT or FSA. Why argue out all the inconsistencies of both ideas when you can remove them in one swoop? Any "distorted over time" argument that muddies canon is inferior to an argument that keeps all canon.

[Fyxe]

It's never implied that Ganon's spirit is inside the Trident. It's just some evil spirit that isn't elaborated upon.

Lets look at those two phrases.

1: It's just some evil spirit that isn't elaborated upon.

2: It's never implied that Ganon's spirit is inside the Trident.

Phrase 1 would seemingly contradict phrase 2, wouldn't you say? Are you seriously saying that some random spirit is the source of power for the King of Darkness? Or are you really missing the obvious implication that Ganon and the spirit are the same?

If FSA is a sequel to ALttP, there is no logical way how the Four Sword got into the Dark World. Plus, the Dark World was destroyed in ALttP, so it can't be in any sequels.

On the subject of the Dark World, references to it are made in the Oracle games. So it does continue to exist. Besides, if Ganon dies inbetween OoT and ALttP, then the Dark World has to vanish and reappear, so saying it can't exist in the future upon Ganon's death is just false.

As for the Four Sword, there's plenty of ways. You're also assuming that both TMC and the original Four Swords come before ALttP, when they may not.

Also, the knights are an integral part of the IW story. And they are nowhere to be found in OoT.

The king is also an integral part, and he doesn't show up in either game (although he's at least referenced in OoT). The Sages do not exist in FSA, either.

As for the knights, well, maaaaybe they could be in the castle? And maybe lots of stuff occured in the seven years when Link was in the Sacred Realm, including some knight-based battles?

They are in FSA. Just because there are only four does not discourage the "family of knights" description. The titles could be hereditary, and they could be brothers or cousins or something.

They also might not be the same knights whatsoever, without a translation of the Japanese we can't tell. 'Knights of Hyrule' is a fairly standard name that could easily be reused in the wrong context. Not saying this is the case, but it's possible.

If I recall correctly, was the Master Sword ever described in the GBA rerelease story of the IW? I don't think it was in there, but correct me if I'm wrong.

The story in the manual of the GBA was cut down for space. It's a simple fact that manuals these days aren't nearly as detailed as they used to be. The manual for the GBA version of Zelda II skips out some of the important information that makes the story make sense as a whole. A new, scaled-down manual doesn't retcon the old story just because it doesn't give all the details. If it *changed* details, that might be a different issue, but just not mentioning them doesn't mean it's changed anything.

And as I said before, the presence of the Dark World in FSA implies that Ganon has already been to the sacred realm and back.

No, it just implied that Ganon is alive. The Dark World exists in the Oracle games (and an early version of it is hinted at in Zelda II), Ganon is on the verge of revival in both games. Much like FSA represents his rebirth, and thus the Dark World grows in strength (which, incidentally, was the aim of Veran and Onox in the Oracle games).

Plus, the OoT seal was broken by TWW Ganondorf. He didn't merely "circumvent" the seal.

What has TWW got to do with this? I never suggested such a thing.

Fyxe, I love you. Seriously.

Get in line. XP

[Person]

My assumption that TMC and the FS series comes before ALttP is based on the fact that TMC shows the origin of the Four Sword. Before this, it was simply the "Picori Sword." Now how is the Four Sword inside the pyramid in ALttP if TMC comes after ALttP?

The manual did not "cut out stuff to save space." It mentions the important details of the story: The Triforce, the Seal, the Knights, the King. Neither does the GBA AoL manual omit anything important. I'm inclined to believe newer canon over the older ones.

And how was I self-contradictory? I said that Ganon's spirit was not inside the Trident. I also said that the spirit inside the Trident is never given an identity or elaborated upon. It is simply the source of the Trident's magic. Besides, the assumption that Ganon is inside the Trident depends on how you read the inscription, which could be interpreted as "Evil Spirit of the Magic Trident. You are the King of Darkness," which would imply that Ganon is inside. However, the way it is presented is:
"Evil. Spirit of the Magic Trident. You are the King of Darkness." This second interpretation speaks directly to whoever wants to take the trident, and tells them that they will become the King of Darkness when they get the Trident. As Duke Serkol pointed out in another thread, this was probably a prophecy of doom that predicted that Ganondorf would get the Trident.

Also, I was not aware of any Dark World references in Oracles. I thought that the Room of Rites was different from the Dark World. And I believe that the Dark World mentioned in AoL was Hyrulean hell or something, not the Sacred Realm.

EDIT: Okay, the Dark World is in Oracles. So apparently there is still some evil in the Sacred Realm and it didn't get purified all the way. But that makes ALttP's Triforce quote seem irrelevant. But hey, isn't that what this thread is about?

Edited by Person, 08 June 2007 - 09:00 PM.

[Raien]

Three important points to make:

1) Depending on where you place an end-of-sentence break in the inscription about the Trident in FSA, there are two interpretations to be made:

- The Trident holds an evil spirit that is the source of the power of Darkness that Ganon wields in FSA.
- Ganondorf is the evil spirit that is destined to wield the Trident; the "ancient demon reborn".

Seeing as how Ganon only wields it when he takes the standard pig form; it appears that the Trident is the symbol of his ascension to the "Demon King" title. If we assume that the Demon King's "birth" in ALTTP's original manual is literal, then that places FSA after ALTTP. If we assume that the "birth", as an origin for Ganon, has been retconned much like the Sleeping Zelda legend, then FSA could be as early in the timeline as the developers want it to be. Every appearance that Ganondorf/Ganon makes could just be another reincarnation.

2) As a theory (no more, no less), the Dark World in Oracles might actually be the Makai. Given the context of Ganon's return at the end of the games, it makes more sense that Twinrova brought him (and Onox and Veran) from the demon underworld, not the Darkness that Ganon spread around Hyrule and the Sacred Realm.

3) Bloodlines never die. No matter what impression a game gives us or how rare bloodlines tend to be, they always return in a sequel. Do not assume that Link in ALTTP did not bring back the Hero's bloodline and the Knights of Hyrule.

Edited by jhurvid, 09 June 2007 - 08:15 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

- Ganondorf is the evil spirit that is destined to wield the Trident; the "ancient demon reborn".

That's what I believe

If we assume that the Demon King's "birth" in ALTTP's original manual is literal, then that places FSA after ALTTP.

And that is NOT what I believe

Bloodlines never die.

[LionHarted]

I agree that it seems strange that the "birth" of the blue demon-beast Ganon in FSA (assuming it's before ALttP), if it was the first appearance of the blue demon-beast, would earn him the title ancient demon "reborn". Well, unless it really wasn't the first appearance, and Miyamoto was right, and LoZ does come before ALttP (and now FSA).

Of course, this is also all assuming:

1) That the pig is the demon; that Ganondorf himself is not;
2) That FSA is before ALttP;
3) That LoZ's supposed place after ALttP is not absolute (which I think is safe, since no game has made a concerted effort to show one way or the other)

Considering that OoT has now been basically completely disjointed from ALttP, with the Ganon connection severed entirely, and ALttP now having nothing to do with OoT beyond the sages' seal, there's nothing to stop LoZ from being placed earlier than ALttP. In fact, since we need someone to put the Triforce back together in the Child timeline, I'm amazed people aren't jumping all over it as an opportunity to do so.

But the game says that Ganon has been stuck inside the Dark World since the IW.

Actually, the game says that Ganon has been stuck inside the Dark World since he entered, seemingly independent of a war.

Edited by LionHarted, 09 June 2007 - 09:45 AM.

[Raien]

Given that ALTTP explains the "birth" of Ganon and the creation of Hyrule leading back to the Hylians, I think ALTTP's intended placement before LoZ remains sound.

In the OoT arc, Ganondorf is referred to as the King of Darkness, but his title as the Demon King remains suspect. Since he never truly loses his humanity, I would be willing to guess that he is not born as the Demon King.

In FSA, he is said to be "once human", so I think the Trident has bestowed upon him the Demon King title. But given that the Demon King Title bestowed the Trident upon him in ALTTP, I think we can safely say that the Trident acts as the symbol of his power, not merely the source of his power.

Edited by jhurvid, 09 June 2007 - 10:14 AM.

[LionHarted]

Given that ALTTP explains the "birth" of Ganon and the creation of Hyrule leading back to the Hylians, I think ALTTP's intended placement before LoZ remains sound.

Remember, though, that the "birth" of Ganon, at the time, wound up being placed before both of them anyway, in OoT. I would note that Ganon the persona evolved in OoT anyway, and that the inhuman nature of the persona was ignored in TWW. Ganon the persona is what is referenced in ALttP.

In the OoT arc, Ganondorf is referred to as the King of Darkness, but his title as the Demon King remains suspect.

The title is the same in each game in which he appears. What are you getting at?

In FSA, he is said to be "once human", so I think the Trident has bestowed upon him the Demon King title. But given that the Demon King Title bestowed the Trident upon him in ALTTP, I think we can safely say that the Trident acts as the symbol of his power, not merely the source of his power.

I think what the Trident represents is completely irrelevant in the face of what his "rebirth" represents. Is it the Demon King being "reborn"; or is it Ganondorf being "reborn" as the Demon King?

I would say that the former would suggest that the inhuman Demon King has appeared before, while the latter suggests nothing in particular.

Edited by LionHarted, 09 June 2007 - 10:19 AM.