143 replies to this topic

[Duke Serkol]

As for being sexist, you are continuing a discriminating tradition from the middle ages, which doesn't even apply to modern fiction. So yeah, I stand by my statement.

Very well, stand by it. I already explained my position on the matter beyond possibility of misreading by a person with a functioning brain. Don't count on me to explain you the difference beyond discrimination of genders and factual reality of social class based raising.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 01 June 2007 - 09:23 PM.

[Chaltab]

Duke, what princesses learned in the real middle ages doesn't have any bearing on what Zelda would know. Hyrule reveres three goddesses. Princess Zelda led Hyrule alone in TP, and used a sword that she only dropped when Zant threatened the people of Hyrule. She was prepared to and presumably capable of fighting him.

Also note that Zelda of both TP and TWW were skilled with the bow and arrow.

There's nothing at all to indicate that Zelda couldn't make a capable protagonist for a game. The reason I personally don't want her as a protagonist has nothing to do with that, though. I think that, if they made a Zelda game starring Zelda, Nintendo would probably dumb it down and make it super easy, if they followed the same pattern as they did in Super Princess Peach.

I'd love to be proven wrong on that point though, if for nothing else than the different game-play options that playing as Zelda would open up.

[Selena]

That, and of course, it's a fantasy adventure video game. Reality doesn't exactly apply as it is, so it strikes my funny bone just a bit to say that Zelda would 'realistically' be incapable of being a main character because she's a tad petite and has scrawny arms. Link himself isn't exactly buff. Nor is it mandatory that the delicate tulip of a princess has to use a hernia-inducing double handed claymore or anything. In recent years, Zelda has been anything but a 'traditional princess' from the middle ages.

[SOAP]

Duke, what princesses learned in the real middle ages doesn't have any bearing on what Zelda would know. Hyrule reveres three goddesses. Princess Zelda led Hyrule alone in TP, and used a sword that she only dropped when Zant threatened the people of Hyrule. She was prepared to and presumably capable of fighting him.

Also note that Zelda of both TP and TWW were skilled with the bow and arrow.

There's nothing at all to indicate that Zelda couldn't make a capable protagonist for a game. The reason I personally don't want her as a protagonist has nothing to do with that, though. I think that, if they made a Zelda game starring Zelda, Nintendo would probably dumb it down and make it super easy, if they followed the same pattern as they did in Super Princess Peach.

I'd love to be proven wrong on that point though, if for nothing else than the different game-play options that playing as Zelda would open up.

Like I said earlier, it would most likely more of a magic-weilding/puzzle solving type game. It wouldn't by no maens be "dumb-downed." In fact it might even be harder with more difficult puzzles and more eloborate dungeons. Whether Zelda can take care of her own when it comes to combat depends on which Zelda. The Pre-OoT Zelda's did little more than being kidnapped. OoT Zelda has her Sheik form. TWW Zelda was pretty tough as Tetra and did a pretty good job taking of herself and a bunch men twice her age long before Link showed up. TP Zelda seems like she'd be a fighter too but we don't raelly see much of her in TP so it's hard to say. The FS and TMC Zeldas are pretty much in the same boat as the Pre-OoT Zeldas. If any Zelda gets her own game, it'd most likely be Tetra.

[Duke Serkol]

Chaltab, Selena, I'm fine with your different position on this matter. What pissed me off, was being called sexist when I was basing my argument on social class, clearly stating that I would be okay with a non-princess girl hero.

Just for the sake of debate: Zelda's sword is so thin it's almost a rapier. It doesn't seem very effective against large monsters compared to Link's usual fare of blades. And in TWW where many say she had a more active role, she realistically had to drag the Master Sword to Link because it was too heavy for her.

[Fyxe]

Fire Emblem characters like Marth have been known to take down rediculously huge Armor Knights with just a rapier, so I hardly see what the type of sword makes a squat of difference in a VIDEO GAME.

...VIDEO GAME.

Repeated for emphasis.

As for the 'dumbing down' issue, some of you say that as if the 3D Zeldas are in any way difficult. Excluding Majora's Mask, which incidently stars a child, they're most certainly not.

[Tekky]

A ton avis perhaps Fyxe, I personally thought MM wasn't as tricky as OoT (well the main quest anyway, I am not including the side quests in that), although that may be down to having better experience of playing 3D Zelda by then...

[Hero of Legend]

Very well, stand by it. I already explained my position on the matter beyond possibility of misreading by a person with a functioning brain. Don't count on me to explain you the difference beyond discrimination of genders and factual reality of social class based raising.

And I explained exactly what I meant by what I said - If you continue the discriminating traditions of the middle ages when there is absolutely no reason to do so, then by extension you are no better than the people who came up with them in the first place. I'm not saying you're really a sexist in everyday life, hence "some kind of sexism." But, I also explained why this 'realism' BS of yours is kinda stupid. It's much like when you complained about Nintendo introducing new enemies.

Just for the sake of debate: Zelda's sword is so thin it's almost a rapier. It doesn't seem very effective against large monsters compared to Link's usual fare of blades.

Child Link did just fine with the Kokiri Sword, and that was tiny. Link himself was really weak BTW, because he couldn't even pull grass out of the ground (or lift rocks in 2D games, or whatever).

And in TWW where many say she had a more active role, she realistically had to drag the Master Sword to Link because it was too heavy for her.

I thought that was supposed to represent how only Link is able to wield the MS. Besides, nobody ever said Zelda would use that sword, did they?

Edited by Hero of Legend, 02 June 2007 - 12:09 PM.

[Kairu Hakubi]

We could always make it turnbased.. that'd take care of perceived strength issues. ^^'

[Fyxe]

It's much like when you complained about Nintendo introducing new enemies.

Spuhwha? New enemies = bad?

[SOAP]

We could always make it turnbased.. that'd take care of perceived strength issues. ^^'

I. Will. Kill people if that ever happened. Then I come after you next for suggesting the idea.

Turn based battles SUCK. That's why I never got into RPGG's (along with other reason).

[Hero of Legend]

Spuhwha? New enemies = bad?

Yeah. Duke didn't like the Bulblins in TP. He said something about it not making any sense for new races to appear in just one game. Ask him about it.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 02 June 2007 - 01:39 PM.

[Fyxe]

Turn based battles SUCK. That's why I never got into RPGG's (along with other reason).

I assume you've never played Paper Mario or Mario & Luigi games, then.

Turn based battles *can* be good, if done well. It's difficult to pull off though, which is why a lot of RPGs tend to be fairly, well, dull.

[Chiaki]

We could always make it turnbased.. that'd take care of perceived strength issues. ^^'

I. Will. Kill people if that ever happened. Then I come after you next for suggesting the idea.

Turn based battles SUCK. That's why I never got into RPGG's (along with other reason).

Agreed.

[Arturo]

That is what I thought before I played Paper Mario 2. That game is absolutely great.

Howver, I think Zelda should stay as it is... but a good turned game with Zelda as main character might be cool...

[Selena]

Just for the sake of debate: Zelda's sword is so thin it's almost a rapier. It doesn't seem very effective against large monsters compared to Link's usual fare of blades. And in TWW where many say she had a more active role, she realistically had to drag the Master Sword to Link because it was too heavy for her.

Lightweight swords are not limited to a rapier. Tai Chi sword, short sword, wakizashi, pata sword gauntlet - there are thousands of different weapon options. Broadswords and claymores aren't the only things that can do heavy damage. Hey, there's more than just swords, for that matter. There are also a plethora of different fighting styles. Zelda doesn't necessarily have to be limited to 'swing heavy thing.' Even if she makes light attacks, she could be more agile and able to land five strikes to Link's one to even things out. Throwing knives. Bows. Using a buckler instead of a huge shield, if she needs one at all. A thousand different fighting styles. We do not necessarily have to be limited to a traditional 'broadsword and kite shield.'

But again, I fail to see why you're falling heavily on the 'realism' factor. It's a fantasy game. And in fantasy games, real world laws and physics go out the window. Link would never, ever be able to lift and fight with the huge two handed Goron sword from OoT, for example. He really is a scrawny kind of guy. The only way he seems capable of using such weapons or performing feats of strength is with the addition of power bracelets or whatever. And there's nothing stopping Zelda from wearing the same augmenting armor.

[Duke Serkol]

Spuhwha? New enemies = bad?

A long while ago (I myself actually did a double take having forgotten the whole thing) there was a debate on why Nintendo felt the need to use Bullblins rather than Moblins who have been underplayed as a race ever since that one first game in which they actually had lines.

On a side note, I have lost any interest in whatever HoL may say and added him to my ignore list

BTW Selena, that's a very good point about strenght augmenting accessories!
In fact that's another terribly underplayed thing. I mean, Link gets the strength to raise a giant monolith and his sword slash still does the same damage??
But I'm getting carried off...

[Arturo]

Moblins had lines in TMC as well

[Duke Serkol]

And one wrote a letter in TWW. See? They can even write. Terribly underplayed dammit :\

[Hero of Legend]

On a side note, I have lost any interest in whatever HoL may say and added him to my ignore list

Wow, that's a first. And over something as trivial as this... I guess some people just can't face defeat.

And I think the series needs some good shaking up, but I doubt a Zelda-centric RPG would be it. Nope, I'd rather have a free-form new kind of gameplay thing, with a new storyline structure to go (Go, awesome powers of vagueness!). A playable Zelda could definitely be part of that, though I'm not really into making up details of that simply isn't going to be produced.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 02 June 2007 - 04:45 PM.

[Fyxe]

You complain it's underplayed despite references in two of the most recent games? o.o And there was the Great Moblin in the Oracle games and his followers...

Bulblins are simply a version of Moblins that is more suited to being a 'race', in that they're small enough to ride about on Bulbos and fire arrows and are a decent size so that Link can take on hordes of them at once. They're not much different from Moblins, aside from their size and their lack of spears.

[Arturo]

Aren't they like Bokoblins, anyway?

[Fyxe]

I've always thought that Bokoblins were significantly dimer than Bulblins.

[Hero of Legend]

Probably, but they are still more like Bokoblins than Moblins. Moblins are animals (either dogs or pigs) Bulblins are more or less goblins that ride on bulls.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 02 June 2007 - 04:58 PM.

[Fyxe]

All the 'blins are somewhat related, generally. Bokoblins were essentially smaller versions of Moblins in TWW. But Moblins are still goblins, after all, that's where their name comes from. Bulblins actually have distinct similarities to the old 'dog' Moblins that show up in the old 2D games, namely attacking in packs and using projectiles as weapons, and being a similar size to Link (while Moblins nowadays are twice his size, usually).

[Showsni]

Tael's male, of course. It seems to follow Peter Pan rules - male fairies are mauve, female white. (And blue are unsure, in Peter Pan...)

Blue fairies are gay? Or do you mean you are not sure what they are? Or that the book never cleared that up?

"There are always a lot of young ones," explained Wendy, who was now quite an authority, "because you see when a new baby laughs for the first time a new fairy is born, and as there are always new babies there are always new fairies. They live in nests on the tops of trees; and the mauve ones are boys and the white ones are girls, and the blue ones are just little sillies who are not sure what they are."

About Tael, he's from Termina. We know that Termina has slightly different rules than Hyrule (just look at the moon), and the lack of any male fairies in the other games is just odd.

How can you tell there aren't male fairies in other games? It's not as if you can really tell by looking at them. And there are probably plenty of other fairies that aren't shown.

[TheMasterSwordsman]

Why the heck would you want a girl Link? He already wears a green dress anyway with no pants. *shot* Nah, just kidding. But seriously, though. Why a girl link? Not to be sexist or anything, because a guy like myself is not sexist. It just seems to break tradition. Although, I am one to believe that Zelda needs a bit of a touchup right now. A new character or a completely different redux would be nice. I'm just not so sure people would like it if a girl Link picked up the sword. I personally think that some people would actually prefer voice acting in a Zelda game. Wonder how that would work.

[Fyxe]

and the blue ones are just little sillies who are not sure what they are.

Okay, that's hilarious.

Transvestite fairies.

[SOAP]

Turn based battles SUCK. That's why I never got into RPGG's (along with other reason).

I assume you've never played Paper Mario or Mario & Luigi games, then.

Turn based battles *can* be good, if done well. It's difficult to pull off though, which is why a lot of RPGs tend to be fairly, well, dull.

There's always a few good exceptions. To be fair though, Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi are hardly traditional RPG's, which makes them awesome in my book.

[Fyxe]

Considering a Zelda game in a traditional RPG would (or at least *should*) be given to Intelligent Systems to make, I'm sure they're do it justice.

I'm not saying it should happen, but personally I wouldn't complain if they did an RPG side story in a Paper Mario style (except without the paperness, obviously).

Of course, I'm also the sort of person who'd adore a Zelda/Fire Emblem crossover, but that's just me. XP