193 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

We're here to debate, not to be preached at. I'm sure most if not all of us know this basic parable, and would like to keep this debate as a debate rather than a Bible lesson. You posted it once, so you don't need to quote it and basically REpost it.
And SOAP - It's not a matter of my 'not listening.' We're on completely different tangents here, it seems. I understand what you're saying, and I've tried to come up with a better explanation of what I'm trying to say but nothing is coming out clearly so I'm going to drop it for now. My thinking patterns are extremely abstract and always have been, and it's hard to word what I say so that the entirety of what I'm thinking gets in there.

All I want to know is where you're getting these beliefs from because as far as I know, I haven't read anything as such from the Bible. If it's from some other religion or your own mind, don't you think it's kind of unfair to expect me intelligently respond to such statements about God when I don't even know where you're coming from to begin with? If you have a problem with something the Torah says, take that up with a Jew. That's not to say the Bible is the end-all-be-all of God's word. I believe the Quran has some truth to it too and as far as I know Jewish scripture is basically the same as the Old Testament but they probably have a different interpretation. But all I can argue from is the Bible, specifically the New Testament because that's what I know. That's what I trust. If you can point to me somewhere in the Bible that supports your belief that we can't be held responsible for our own sins then point to a verse or at least a general idea of where I can find it. But please don't use something from another religion, because different religion are likely to have very different beliefs. It's really unfair to say something in Christianity is illogical because of something found in some other religion or something you came up with in your own head. If you're going to do that then please elaborate and where you're coming from instead of just saying Christianity makes sense because this, this, and that, most which being things I haven't even heard of before in my Christian faith.

Edited by SOAP, 08 May 2007 - 09:33 PM.

[wisp]

Okay, I'm going to try and explain here.

I never said, precisely, that someone should not be held accountable for sins he commits. You're kind of putting words in my mouth. Allow me to start over.

According to Christian doctrine, we are all created by God, yes? God supposedly knows us before we are even formed in the womb. God creates us as we are, including inherent personality traits that we have.

If my personality, my brain, is wired so that I am incapable of accepting certain parts or even ALL of Christian dogma and beliefs - sin aside - if I am wired so that the Christian version of God basically "DOES NOT COMPUTE" in my being, doesn't it stand to reason that this inherent personality trait would have been placed there by whomever created me?

So, if I am incapable of both being true to myself and accepting the Christian God, that is not my fault. It is not something I can choose to follow or not. But if what the majority of Christians believe to be true actually IS true, then I will go to Hell unless I experience a major change of self.

Also, a note for everyone, please note the last line of my signature before you attempt to convert me again.

Edited by wisp, 08 May 2007 - 09:56 PM.

[TempleMaster]

Do you want a change in your life? Do you want to change how you act and respond to things or change yourself? Try making a difference within yourself then. No one can change you except you. You have the power to change who you are and it is up to you to make that difference. I'm not trying to preach or to convert anyone. I'm trying to show you that God is out there and that he loves all sinners. You have a choice in this life and the choices that you make will impact your future. Whether that future is positive or not is up to you. Your the one in the drivers seat and it is completely up to you whether or not you change or go in the right direction. I need not say anymore. You have to have an open heart and want to see things differently and that is apparently just not here...

[TheAvengerLever]

Ah, I take it you're the type of person who'd go along with a ruthless dictator as long as you didn't get killed yourself then.

Selfish belief in Christianity to save one's own skin is a seriously twisted concept.

Yes it is. Which is why I'm not about that.

[Chikara Nadir]

To Temple Master:

We'll take your word for it when you say that you need not say anymore.

It's acceptable to hope to positively effect others lives, as you hope to be doing. HOWEVER. This is a thread to discuss (in theory without strong bias) your personal beliefs in what 'hell' is, or other possibilities for the afterlife. That means that yes- you can state your Christian beliefs. Yet we request that you do so academically, and respect the fact that other individuals on the forums have different beliefs, which they feel as strongly about as you do regarding your own.

We try to respect all belief systems on LA and to not risk overstepping our bounds by pushing our ideas onto others, and such has been made clear in the first of our Rules here on the forums. I'm not trying to make you feel unwelcome- I simply request for you to not say words that cause others to be uncomfortable themselves. This is a very strong request as an Admin that I beg you to take heed of. I am also Christian, so don't think I say this out of spite.

I, too, believe I need not say anymore.

[SOAP]

Okay, I'm going to try and explain here.

I never said, precisely, that someone should not be held accountable for sins he commits. You're kind of putting words in my mouth. Allow me to start over.

According to Christian doctrine, we are all created by God, yes? God supposedly knows us before we are even formed in the womb. God creates us as we are, including inherent personality traits that we have.

If my personality, my brain, is wired so that I am incapable of accepting certain parts or even ALL of Christian dogma and beliefs - sin aside - if I am wired so that the Christian version of God basically "DOES NOT COMPUTE" in my being, doesn't it stand to reason that this inherent personality trait would have been placed there by whomever created me?

So, if I am incapable of both being true to myself and accepting the Christian God, that is not my fault. It is not something I can choose to follow or not. But if what the majority of Christians believe to be true actually IS true, then I will go to Hell unless I experience a major change of self.

Also, a note for everyone, please note the last line of my signature before you attempt to convert me again.

I think I understand and I'm sorry if I put words in your mouth. I have a habit of taking partial sentences of just words that stick out in people's posts and running with it. I do read the whole posts but there are things people say that "DOES NOT COMPUTE" with me either and if I put words in your mouth it's because I don't understand. I have my personality flaws too. But now that you elaborated more I think I understand a little of where you're coming from. In fact I had trained doctors tell me I would never be able to comprehend such concepts such as God because the way my brain is wired. Everything in my mind is like random complicated jumble. Northing's separated and everything just bleeds into each other. Used to be if someone were to tell me God loved me the way I am I'd get really pissed off because it just couldn't be that simple. But I came to believe in God. I believe that God is stronger than any so called flaw he created me with. Assuming that exists he probably hasn't revealed himself to you yet, in which case nothing I or any other believer says would make any difference to you. In fact I'd just make things worse. If he doesn't I'm just blowing [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of hot air. But I believe that God is not limited by whatever traits, flaws, tendencies we may have. Also, I never did like the idea that I could never believe in God simply because other people said so. People used to say the way my barin is wired I'd never finish high school or even get into college yet I graduated high school and now about to graduate and get my BA.

[TempleMaster]

Alright, alright. I see the warning and believe me, after I thought it over, I did go kind of overboard with my posts. I apologize for my preaching towards everyone and apologize if I offended anyone. My personality is to go at whatever I do fully and that was what I was doing. I make no excuses for my mistakes and just get them out in the open now. As a strong Christian believer, I tend to go all out on this type of subject so maybe in the future, I'll stir clear of the controversial part of the site.

I appreciate the warning you gave me. I will though heed the warning and move on. I don't have much to say other than apologize to everyone and let you know that I'm moving out and will try to be less... how would you put it... into the debates so much. I'll be less restrictive and didn't imagine things would go that far. Thanks again for the warning and sorry if I offended anyone, but I have a simple question. How did we get from talking about Hell to getting into reincarnation and then the belief that God is unpleased with us? It doesn't seem to be like it would take that many turns, but I'm just asking respectfully.

[wisp]

Well, the thread was about Hell or the afterlife. Some people believe in reincarnation rather than an eternal afterlife in heaven or hell, so it's relevant. God being unpleased with us? Well it's theoretically the thing that sends us to hell, right? Relevant.

[TempleMaster]

Well, like it's said in the story that I typed straight from the Bible, God is not displeased with anyone. He doesn't send any of us to hell, we ourselves choose that in my opinion...

I think that's quite enough for me. I've been warned and will get my other posts away from this trend. Like I said, I think this is all I have to say. I'm not here to upset anyone so enjoy the remainer trends, I'll stir clear for personal reasons. I don't wish to hurt anyone and my personality, that is a good chance of that. I'm done with the controversial debates.

[arunma]

Well, like it's said in the story that I typed straight from the Bible, God is not displeased with anyone. He doesn't send any of us to hell, we ourselves choose that in my opinion...

I think that's quite enough for me. I've been warned and will get my other posts away from this trend. Like I said, I think this is all I have to say. I'm not here to upset anyone so enjoy the remainer trends, I'll stir clear for personal reasons. I don't wish to hurt anyone and my personality, that is a good chance of that. I'm done with the controversial debates.

Woah now, no one is asking you to leave. It's perfectly acceptable to quote from the Bible (as a fellow evangelical Christian I'm quite fond of the Bible). Heck, if you want to convert people, go for it. After all, the purpose of a debate forum is to convince other people to give up their views and adopt yours, so "conversion" of any sort, whether religious, social, or political, is the very spirit of this forum. All I would ask is that you try to keep your posts on topic. If you'd like to start a thread on why God loves unbelievers, then please do so. But since the topic of this thread is the issue of hell, all participants should write posts that, to whatever extent possible, bear directly on the issue at hand.

[Hero of Slime]

So, if I am incapable of both being true to myself and accepting the Christian God, that is not my fault.

It is your fault for wanting to be true to yourself. We are supposed to put God first but we naturally want to put ourselves first. We should abandon our natural egotism and do what God wants us to do. If your desire to please yourself keeps you from having faith in the Lord, then it would be your fault that you have no faith.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I think I understand and I'm sorry if I put words in your mouth. I have a habit of taking partial sentences of just words that stick out in people's posts and running with it.

Tell me about it.

I suppose we all do it, because our brains are wired to think a certain way. Thus if someone's way of thinking is different, we have difficulties understanding them, unless there's some common ground. The problem here being that atheists don't have much common ground with religionists.

For example, you and TM can't understand why we don't believe in God after reading the same text you have.

Now as for the concept of Hell, it's overblown. Unless Hell is a finite punishment for a finite crime, it's overdone. However, there is no evidence to suggest it is. However, I have noticed something. Religions that ascribe linear personal histories to people often depict Hell as infinite. Religions that do not, like say... Chinese traditional beliefs, often depict it as an intermediary period before being reborn. It's like some kind of unwritten rule, which is why I assume the Christian Hell is infinite and is overblown. There is, of course, nothing to suggest this is so, but many Christians believe it is so and they're the only other source on Hell I can find.

An infinite Hell does not seem compatible with a loving God, as I've stated before. There is also the logical flaw of Heaven. Humans can only commit a finite number of good deeds, yet they are rewarded eternally for it. It's a disproportionate amount of reward.

[Selena]

If that's the case, then I'm afraid it's up to her to decide. Which is what I find particularly destructive about trying to actively convert people. Especially some of the subtle tactics in this thread (though some of the negativity towards Christianity is just as trite and annoying). A gentle almost bullying into trying to get her to follow the faith. It feels less like something spiritual and more like trying to convince someone to change their stance on gun control or some other social issue. Which from a religious standpoint I find very wrong as it contradicts the personal journey to be undertaken. You can't first see the light without seeing the darkness, meaning that in order to truly understand you must examine or experience something different before selecting the path that suits you best. Hardship, discovery and studying - these are things that must be done to ensure you've selected something that your very soul feels in line with. While you naturally want people to be a part of your group, it must be understood that it's a very personal and independent choice.

Which is why conversion puzzles me (and yes, before someone points it out, I'm well aware the book encourages it). Oddly enough it's only on the internet I see that kind of attitude. In discussions face-to-face people seem to mind their tongue more about the 'you will be condemned and to avoid that you should think as we do' business. At least where I'm from. I imagine the Bible Belt is different. But to be very honest, do you feel the burn-in-hell tactic produces real, honest and loving Christians? I would think that people recruited to the faith in such a manner would be half-hearted supporters only doing it 'just in case' - breeding the kind of Christians who tend to give the religion a bad name in regards to how they act. It seems to me that in order to produce admirable people who are actually dedicated to the cause would accept the lord on their own via whatever personal reasoning they have on the matter - their own choice as opposed to peer pressure.

I always imagined that the encouragement of conversion in the Bible was about simply informing people of Jesus and his teachings as opposed to striking fear in the hearts of people. And as this is America, or the west in general, just about everyone already knows who he is. The final choice is up to them and that must be respected. The bond is between a person and god. Which is why you'll hear people complain about why active conversion is rather annoying. They know the premise of the religion and probably a decent amount of information thanks to western exposure to it. If they wished to be Christian, they would be. Spreading the word only works on the uninformed or people from distant lands who've never heard of the guy. Further poking and prodding about it only serves as an irritation. It may make your religion well known, but certainly not well loved. I think you'll find that active conversion is actually a detriment in many respects.

So I'm afraid I must disagree with arunma on the topic of conversion here. Wisp has already been exposed to the religion, as she's shown from previous posts, which means that she obviously doesn't agree with it and badgering her about that could be seen as harassment. Remember the feeling you get when multiple atheists are calling you stupid for believing, and that's what the other side feels like when multiple people are trying to convert them to a religion they don't particularly care for or wish to join. It's not a terribly positive thing, despite the occasional use of the 'god is love' cliche.





As for hell itself, anything named after a Norse goddess is not to be trusted. Even if that goddess was a badass. Nor am I a fan of eternal suffering in any way, shape or form, which is probably one of the reasons I do not align with Christianity well. For as much as the deity is praised for being forgiving, the black and white/good and evil rationality at judgment time actually serves to contradict that notion for anyone not already within the faith. Nor have I ever felt comfortable with the 'accept me or suffer damnation' view present within the religion, which is an aspect that cannot be belittled. This is why I'll likely never be a part of it. I may not understand the mind of a god, but I'm not incapable of detecting unfairness. I feel very comfortable with my spirituality and very zen most of the time, so if god has an issue with my stance, he may speak to me about it.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I just realised something! Nobody's given the blatantly obvious, cheeky answer yet. So I will do it.

Of course, Hell exists. It's in Michigan.

[SOAP]

To Temple Master:

We'll take your word for it when you say that you need not say anymore.

It's acceptable to hope to positively effect others lives, as you hope to be doing. HOWEVER. This is a thread to discuss (in theory without strong bias) your personal beliefs in what 'hell' is, or other possibilities for the afterlife. That means that yes- you can state your Christian beliefs. Yet we request that you do so academically, and respect the fact that other individuals on the forums have different beliefs, which they feel as strongly about as you do regarding your own.

We try to respect all belief systems on LA and to not risk overstepping our bounds by pushing our ideas onto others, and such has been made clear in the first of our Rules here on the forums. I'm not trying to make you feel unwelcome- I simply request for you to not say words that cause others to be uncomfortable themselves. This is a very strong request as an Admin that I beg you to take heed of. I am also Christian, so don't think I say this out of spite.

I, too, believe I need not say anymore.

That was the intent of this thread, yes. But you know how us LAers like to get carried away. B)

[Khallos]

I'm pretty sure Wisp going on about us all being born sinners, is to do with Original Sin, not God creating humans as sinful creatures. As far as I know, ever since Eve took the first bite from the apple we've all been damned, so whether or not you live long enough past child birth, you are an automatic sinner. Which is why although the Catholic Church has changed it, unbaptised babies should be sent straight to Hell, and in fact they should be honest and drop this "lets become PC act"; but I'm sure God told the Pope it was OK (makes sense as the Pope is the closest person to God in the world after all).

[Chikara Nadir]

It is your fault for wanting to be true to yourself. We are supposed to put God first but we naturally want to put ourselves first. We should abandon our natural egotism and do what God wants us to do. If your desire to please yourself keeps you from having faith in the Lord, then it would be your fault that you have no faith.

As has already been pointed out to you by Selena, wisp's beliefs are her own to decide.

And if you didn't realize what I meant from my previous warning to Templemaster, I'll say it again. STOP trying to strongly influence people's religious beliefs in this thread. Especially I am disappointed by any open displays of what may be perceived as "putting people down" who disagree with your own ideas. I'm sorry, but saying someone's lack of faith is 'their fault' is a pure example of this. I will NOT hesitate to force you to do so if any one continues in this manner.



Also...awww..Lenabot doesn't trust Hel? I always thought she was a delightful character to name other afterlives/underworlds after.

[Keen]

It is your fault for wanting to be true to yourself. We are supposed to put God first but we naturally want to put ourselves first. We should abandon our natural egotism and do what God wants us to do. If your desire to please yourself keeps you from having faith in the Lord, then it would be your fault that you have no faith.

I must point out that it is logically impossible for someone not to be true to themselves. If it is absolutely not in a person's nature to act a certain way or to think a certain way, it is simply impossible for that person to behave in such a manner.

[wisp]

It is your fault for wanting to be true to yourself. We are supposed to put God first but we naturally want to put ourselves first. We should abandon our natural egotism and do what God wants us to do. If your desire to please yourself keeps you from having faith in the Lord, then it would be your fault that you have no faith.

Being TRUE to oneself and seeking to PLEASE oneself are two distinctly different things. Being true to oneself simply means not going against the basic beliefs and values that are in one's heart and mind. It means not accepting someone else's religion just because someone else said to, even if you, personally, do not REALLY believe it.

Edited by wisp, 09 May 2007 - 03:47 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

Okay, I missunderstood you. This ain't the Zelda section so I ain't trying to make every one agree with me. There is no reason to get upset over this.

I to do not like the idea of people being damned for eternity, that is why I don't ever tell people they will be damned. I would rather there not be a hell but, I still believe it exists.

Reincarnation I don't really like either. I find the idea of living multiple lives over and over without remembering anything of past lives disturbing.

[SOAP]

I find the idea of living multiple lives over and over without remembering anything of past lives disturbing.

Not to mention pointless.

Anyways, I too don't like the idea of an everlasting Hell. Actually I don't think any Christian likes the idea of souls suffering for all eternity any more than anyone else. Unless they're some sort of demented freak like the folks at the WBC.

Anyways I did a little more half-assed research and Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe Hell exists and that the concept is rather new and illegitimately added in to the Bible. They believe the unsaved simply die and that's basically it. No lakes of fire and gnashing of teeth. Just thought I'd add that. I don't know if they have any basis for their beliefs but at least it shows that not all Christian sects believe in any sort of Hell at all. Hell as an actual place filled with fire and torment is indeed a fairly new concept. Before that, there was Sheol which was either a literal place that was like our world only gloomier without all the fire and torture or just euphemism for the grave. And everyone went there regardless if they believed in God or not. Personally I never seen Hell as a literal place (unless it was something like Sheol). I always saw it the sate of your soul after you die. It doesn't matter where your soul is. Indeed the saved and the unsaved could be in the same place for all I care. But the unsaved will be so lost in their own tormented emotions to interact with the souls of the saved and with God.

I did some more research and my beliefs about Hell align more with the Bahá'í Faith than with Christianity.

Edited by SOAP, 09 May 2007 - 08:01 PM.

[TempleMaster]

Come on everyone, take a breath on and a break from the subject. This is getting into very hot water and seems to be more of a conversion than it does anyone else. Twice now an admin has had to warn us. I think, for all of us, it would be best to agree to disagree and keep things on a lighter note or change the subject completely. There is nothing to be gained by fighting about it and I'm not saying that I'm not to blame. In fact, I think I was the one that started all of this, but I'm backing down and suggest for positive references that the trend not continue on unless it is like the admin said, logical and opinion only based. I've stated my opinion, but this seems to be hurting more people than it does to be helping anyone. I've given my two cents, your call from here on. I don't want to offend anyone so I'm cooling my posts for a while.

[Alardonin]

I don't particularly find the concept of hell or heaven appealing to me, it's just too black and white.

But going by the most common beliefs, I just can't find any reasons or see myself agreeing with the view that a soul should suffer as much as it can, do to anything they could potentially do on this earth. When you talk about a soul suffering for the rest of eternity... I mean... What we get from those words could never measure up to the real deal.

Why such a harsh punishment? What exactly does it teach us? Does this judgement not fall exactly into the same way of mind that led us to such a place, whether heaven or hell. If a place in heaven was reserved for me, how could I ever feel good about myself or deserving of such a place? Would it make me feel better because I didn't go straight to hell and suffer along others? Or that others are suffering, when I am not? This hole concept of Hell, Heaven and judgement, falls extremelly to the side of Human nature.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I'm pretty sure Wisp going on about us all being born sinners, is to do with Original Sin, not God creating humans as sinful creatures. As far as I know, ever since Eve took the first bite from the apple we've all been damned, so whether or not you live long enough past child birth, you are an automatic sinner. Which is why although the Catholic Church has changed it, unbaptised babies should be sent straight to Hell, and in fact they should be honest and drop this "lets become PC act"; but I'm sure God told the Pope it was OK (makes sense as the Pope is the closest person to God in the world after all).

Why? They did it to compete against Islam, which states that dead babies and foetuses automatically go to Heaven. Although you might deny it, religion is a business.

[SOAP]

Why did the Catholics have the belief that babies should be baptized to begin with? It seems more like tradition thing then an actual requirement. catholics are the only Christian sect to practice it as far as I know.

[TheAvengerLever]

I thought the Lutherans did it too.

[wisp]

Lutherans, Anglicans and Episcopalians are all pretty much Catholic-lite. There are churches in these three denominations that will baptize babies if the parents desire it, but it's not considered necessary outside the Roman Catholic church, to my knowledge.

[masterofwind]

This has been a rather interesting thread to read.

I believe in heaven/hell and resurrection. If hell in punishment for those that have done evil deed through out their life then I think it would be a much worse fate to send them to purgatory. I tend to find a endlessness of nothingness is a far worse torture then well a persons general idea of torture.

If you are wondering how I can believe in heave/hell and resurrection, it is like this. I believe that one gets a choice to either come back down to earth and live through life once more and they can do this as many times as they please, or they can decide on heaven or hell. I havent quite figured out if you are judged or not and sent to one or the other, or if they just choose to be sent to one or the other.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Hm, seeing as we're discussing Hell, would it be okay to discuss its opposite, Heaven as well? After all, the two ideas are linked.

[Arturo]

o.o

I thought every Christian confession baptized their children.