193 replies to this topic

[vodkamaru]

Reincarnation in my eyes is illogical as well. I can't see how that is possible that once we die, we become something or someone else?

So then how do you experience heaven and hell?

[SOAP]

Actually there IS proof of reincarnation, or at least one very convincing supposive case of it. I forget his name but I once saw a documentary on a guy who who supposibvely is a reincarnation of a Civil War soldier. He had fragmentated memories of actually being in the war despite the fact he wasn't even born around that time and the real kicker was when they compared his photograph with a picture of the soldier in question, they looked exactly the same.

There was also another case of a ,man, I think in India, who died in a horrible accident that impaled his face. At that same moment a baby was born with a birthmark in the same area. When they child was a boy around 10 to 12 years old, he spoke to the parents of the dead man and knew stuff about them that only their son would know. THe parents believe the boy is indeed the reincarnation of their dead son.

I don't know if I believe in reincarnation. But there are some hokey stuff that goes on that's really hard to explain sometimes.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I'd like to say that both Heaven and Hell seem to be the carrot and the stick.

And TM, for someone who doesn't want to start an argument, you're going about it a very strange way...

[Keen]

Can you see the similaritites in trying to prove God and that reincarnation are real? I don't believe that after we die, we get a second chance. We get just one chance on this earth and then that is it. We are either going to Heaven for leading a good life, or Hell for leading a bad life. This seems like middle ground and I just can't see it any other way really. That seems illogical.

It's honestly a bit tricky to make sense of this, but I'll do my best to respond meaningfully.

Of course, no one here said they wanted to prove that incarnation was real. Any evidence presented on that issue would simply be too weak to stand as proof for any rational judgment. And all I said was that afterlife would be more fun if reincarnation were available. And I find it hard to see what's wrong with middle ground. There's not a single person on this Earth who deserves ultimate punishment or ultimate reward. Therefore, it seems to me to be illogical that one person could have infinite bliss while another, not much worse than the first, suffered eternal damnation.

[arunma]

Actually there IS proof of reincarnation, or at least one very convincing supposive case of it. I forget his name but I once saw a documentary on a guy who who supposibvely is a reincarnation of a Civil War soldier. He had fragmentated memories of actually being in the war despite the fact he wasn't even born around that time and the real kicker was when they compared his photograph with a picture of the soldier in question, they looked exactly the same.

There was also another case of a ,man, I think in India, who died in a horrible accident that impaled his face. At that same moment a baby was born with a birthmark in the same area. When they child was a boy around 10 to 12 years old, he spoke to the parents of the dead man and knew stuff about them that only their son would know. THe parents believe the boy is indeed the reincarnation of their dead son.

I don't know if I believe in reincarnation. But there are some hokey stuff that goes on that's really hard to explain sometimes.

I'm guessing those stories are either made up, or are grossly exaggerated. You might want to check the facts before you alter your religious beliefs on the basis of seemingly plausible arguments.

[SOAP]

Alter my religious beliefs? I'm just saying they have some rather convincing arguments. That's not to say that everyone should go out and adopt an Eastern religion because of it. And why would everything that disagrees with your religious beliefs have to be made up or grossly exaggerated?

[wisp]

Alter my religious beliefs? I'm just saying they have some rather convincing arguments. That's not to say that everyone should go out and adopt an Eastern religion because of it. And why would everything that disagrees with your religious beliefs have to be made up or grossly exaggerated?

Because it's much more believable that some spiritual being impregnanted a woman with his son, and the son grew up to perform miracles that some would venture to call 'magical,' then he was killed and came back to life.


(My point in all of this being, of course, that the Christian religion sounds just as farfetched as any reincarnation beliefs, so I'm with SOAP on this one.)

Edited by wisp, 07 May 2007 - 08:14 AM.

[SOAP]

Because it's much more believable that some spiritual being impregnanted a woman with his son, and the son grew up to perform miracles that some would venture to call 'magical,' then he was killed and came back to life.
(My point in all of this being, of course, that the Christian religion sounds just as farfetched as any reincarnation beliefs, so I'm with SOAP on this one.)

Just to note, God actually having sex with Mary and impregnating her is not Christian belief. Only Mormons and the really bizarre sects of ancient Christianity that migarted over to the pre-Muslim middle east believe that. Jesus was born from a virgin birth which maens even God didn't have sex with Mary and quite frankly God being God, he wouldn't even have to. God isn't Zeus now.

[vodkamaru]

Just to note, God actually having sex with Mary and impregnating her is not Christian belief. Only Mormons and the really bizarre sects of ancient Christianity that migarted over to the pre-Muslim middle east believe that. Jesus was born from a virgin birth which maens even God didn't have sex with Mary and quite frankly God being God, he wouldn't even have to. God isn't Zeus now.

I think the point wisp was making was the rediculousness of a virgin birth, and not that god fucked Mary. I just don't understand how it is known that that's not how it worked.

Edited by vodkamaru, 07 May 2007 - 10:14 AM.

[wisp]

I think the point wisp was making was the rediculousness of a virgin birth, and not that god fucked Mary. I just don't understand how it is known that that's not how it worked.

Exactly... I never said God had sex with Mary... I said he impregnated her. Which, according to the story, he did. The story in the Gospels reads something like "The power of God will come upon you, Mary, and the spirit of the most high will overshadow you, so the child to be born of you will be called holy" or thereabouts..

Really, it's not ONLY the ridiculousness of a virgin birth... but that combined with the belief that this kid was half human and half deity. It sounds like mythology whether sex is involved or not. XDD

[Keen]

Whether it is true or not, the story of Jesus is still technically classified as a myth.

[Arturo]

I bg to differ. It's not a myth, but what one would call a legend. Myths are never based on real events, while it's almost certain that there was a man called Jesus who claimed to be teh Messiah, who was crucified and was said to have resurrected.

[Fyxe]

Myths are never based on real events,

...Um, that's just entirely untrue. Many, many myths are based on real events.

while it's almost certain that there was a man called Jesus who claimed to be teh Messiah, who was crucified

Not denying this bit.

and was said to have resurrected.

THIS bit would be the whole 'myth' bit.

[vodkamaru]

I bg to differ. It's not a myth, but what one would call a legend. Myths are never based on real events, while it's almost certain that there was a man called Jesus who claimed to be teh Messiah, who was crucified and was said to have resurrected.

I really hate when arguments end up like this and people break down to arguing over definitions. Here's the definitions for

myth

1 a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon b : PARABLE, ALLEGORY
2 a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society <seduced by the American myth of individualism -- Orde Coombs> b : an unfounded or false notion
3 : a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence
4 : the whole body of myths

and legend

1 a : a story coming down from the past; especially : one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable b : a body of such stories <a place in the legend of the frontier> c : a popular myth of recent origin d : a person or thing that inspires legends e : the subject of a legend <its violence was legend even in its own time -- William Broyles Jr.>
2 a : an inscription or title on an object (as a coin) b : CAPTION 2b c : an explanatory list of the symbols on a map or chart

From these definitions, you can call the stories both myths and legends. Also, by those definitions, legends are myths.

Edited by vodkamaru, 07 May 2007 - 04:31 PM.

[Keen]

I am merely arguing against the popular misconception that Christ is somehow different from Zeus or Odin. It might be said that Jesus is historical while Christ is mythical. This is a discussion about perceptions and conceptions, is it not?

[vodkamaru]

I am merely arguing against the popular misconception that Christ is somehow different from Zeus or Odin. It might be said that Jesus is historical while Christ is mythical. This is a discussion about perceptions and conceptions, is it not?

I'm just arguing that debating whether the story of jesus is a myth or legend is entirely pointless. I completely agree that all the stories (about zeus, jesus, budda, mohammad, quetzecotl, etc) fall under those categories. I just think its a waste of time to argue over which one it is especially when the definitions are right there for you to look up. It's a way of delaying the argument and taking it into a new, useless direction.

Edited by vodkamaru, 07 May 2007 - 04:40 PM.

[SOAP]

Myths are never based on real events.

Somebody's never read Beowulf.

[TheAvengerLever]

Seriously though. What kind of person believes in some guy who comes down and heals people? And then dies for their sins?

I don't respect people who believe that some guy saved them from eternal torture.

Besides. Someone can't be God and a Human at the same time. It's just not possible.

[vodkamaru]

I don't respect people who believe that some guy saved them from eternal torture.

I can't tell how serious you're being, but that's not cool...

[TheAvengerLever]

You know what's not cool? Having to follow rules set down from someone you can't even prove exists.

[wisp]

You know what's not cool? Having to follow rules set down from someone you can't even prove exists.

Good thing nobody's forcing you to believe in this possibly nonexistant person.

[TheAvengerLever]

They are.

They say if I don't get Christed up I'm going to be damned.

[wisp]

They are.

They say if I don't get Christed up I'm going to be damned.

Do they personally have the power to damn you? Nope. They ARE trying to rudely push their own personal beliefs on you, but in reality, their beliefs that you do not share really don't have any power over you at all.

[TempleMaster]

Where has this arguement gone to? First we were wondering about whether or not Hell was real and now we say that Christ is a myth? These arguements go to strange places.

Listen, History has proven that there was indeed a Jesus on this earth two thousand years ago and that he did die on the cross. History says that he was born from Mary a virgin and did indeed do the things that are in the Bible. Granted you won't find that in the normal history books of school today because of the ridiculous separate church from state laws, but histroy shows that Jesus did exsist on this earth. I believe that by supernatural means, God sent his son into Mary and thus gave her the child as a virgin.

[TheAvengerLever]

History was never keen on Christ's miracles. At all. The man Jesus existed yes. But there's not a lot of history besides a select few sources that actually talk about miracles.

[TempleMaster]

Exactly what I meant when I said that you won't find history books with that kind of stuff in it as it is separation of church and state. While Jesus did exsist, do you know that in the area of Judea, where the Bible talks about historical things, there are things left to prove that the Bible is correct? There are monuments that are exactly what the Bible said was there and thus that proves that the Bible is as well a history book. A history book that tells the miracles of Jesus.

[TheAvengerLever]

That's still not evidence to prove Jesus did miracles. Could be some crazy messed up guy on drugs.

I'm still not convinced Jesus was a miracle worker. For all I know he's still the same old judgemental God shaking his finger at us from a million miles away.

[vodkamaru]

Some people wonder if there even was a historical Jesus.

[TempleMaster]

Welcome to the natural world where people wish to push away that kind of things. Listen, God is not up there shaking his finger at us saying we blew it and there is no hope for us. This is useless to say if your not willing or wanting to believe, but he is up there waiting on every one of us to come to him boldly and confess our sins so we can be saved. Why do you think he sent his son to die for us and save us? He loved us all so much and more than anyone on earth ever will. He loves every single one of us and his son was of God. He is actually one of the three trinity of God. God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit.

[Fyxe]

Enough with the goddamn preaching. We've heard it all before.

God doesn't love anyone if he forces us to believe in him to avoid damnation. That is not a loving god.