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#151 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 17 May 2007 - 04:29 PM

I am offended both as Catholic and as Spanish.


Why?

Firstly, Spain wasn't the only country with Inquisition

That's right. There were 3 other Inquisitions...one started around the 1200, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Rome Inquisition...If I can recall.

The Catholic Church has done many bad things in the past, and in the present, but that post was absolutely uncalled of.


Beliefs are such a bad thing to have. I believe in something, and you believe in something else. I don't like the Catholic Church for obvious reasons, you get offended. I'm sorry, but I just don't like the Catholic Church. The people are all good though. Church, no.

At least our Church doesn't say science is an invention of the devil and that evolution goes against Genesis and is therefore wrong.

Why not?

And last I checked, Puritans were a kind of Protestants. They had nothing to do with that.


Clearly you don't realize I'm speaking out against both sides of the spectrum.

And I see nothing abnormal with transubstantation (or whatever it's called). But taht may be because I am Catholic. Believing taht the bread transfoprms into Jesus' flesh and teh wine into his blood is a Catholic dogma, but is shared by many other Christian churches, though in slightly different ways.

I still think that sounds a bit too gross. So bread and wine turns into blood and flesh. Eww. We're eating a dead man's unseemingly ending supply of flesh.

Button, if it weren't for the Catholic Church, you wouldn't be Christian now. Christianism wouldn't exist now. I think that is a big contribution.


Couldn't agree with you more. I hold Christianity very dear.

Saying that without the Catholic Church statement sounds like the kind of thing mothers say to disrespectful children..."If it weren't for me you wouldn't be here." Which, yes, is the truth. But that doesn't really justify anything.

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 17 May 2007 - 04:32 PM.


#152 Hero of Slime

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Posted 17 May 2007 - 04:56 PM

still think that sounds a bit too gross. So bread and wine turns into blood and flesh. Eww. We're eating a dead man's unseemingly ending supply of flesh.


Not when it is symbolic of somthing else.

Why not?

Because it does not, it is possible for both to be true. And most science is done with the intention of making peoples lives better.

#153 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 17 May 2007 - 05:00 PM

Why not?

Because it does not, it is possible for both to be true. And most science is done with the intention of making peoples lives better.


I was arguing about evolution. There is no way Evolution and Jesus go together. At all. Throw your theories and your interpretations and arguements around all you like. It's not happening. Ever.

By the way. I don't know if you knew this, but Biology and Anatomy are two very boring school subjects and if you were to try and convince me that it's making lives better then you'd have to make it at least not so dull. Besides, if science is making lives better then what the hell is Jesus doing?

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 17 May 2007 - 05:01 PM.


#154 Hero of Slime

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Posted 17 May 2007 - 06:25 PM

I was talking about evolution ad its relation to the first two chapters of genesis, which can work together if you don't assume that evolution requires that there be no God. I did not say anything about jesus at all in relation to that so I don't know why you bring it up.

I would like to know where in the jungle you are if you are living for you to say that you live without the advancements that modern science has given the western world. That would have to be the case if you say that biology does nothing to help people. Jesus does make my life better but I know having clean water does to.

(I also want to add that my post is not start a debate on evolution or about the great wonders of modern science and engineering, but me defending catholics from Avenger Button's Comments)

Edited by The Zol, 17 May 2007 - 06:30 PM.


#155 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 17 May 2007 - 07:14 PM

I was talking about evolution ad its relation to the first two chapters of genesis, which can work together if you don't assume that evolution requires that there be no God. I did not say anything about jesus at all in relation to that so I don't know why you bring it up.


It doesn't work at all. Things didn't evolve in seven days time.

I would like to know where in the jungle you are if you are living for you to say that you live without the advancements that modern science has given the western world. That would have to be the case if you say that biology does nothing to help people. Jesus does make my life better but I know having clean water does to.


I've read of people surviving without advancements in modern sciences all my life. We can do it. It has happened.

#156 Hero of Slime

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Posted 17 May 2007 - 09:31 PM

You are way off on trying to guess my beliefs of evolution and creationism. The only evolution that can happen in seven days are evolutions of micro organisms that have a generation every hour or so. My veiw might be different from that of arturo, so he should explain that if he wants to.

I've read of people surviving without advancements in modern sciences all my life. We can do it. It has happened.


Yes people can survive with out various advantages of modern science, but do you? If you don't than you have no right to call science useless. I know I could survive by pulling my water out of the lake and boiling it to kill all the potential life forms with it, but I don't want to. I perfer the ability to walk a few feet to have clean drinkable water whenever I want. If you want to live free of advances in science go for it, but until you do, you can not say biology is useless.

#157 wisp

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Posted 17 May 2007 - 10:40 PM

It doesn't work at all. Things didn't evolve in seven days time.

The general assumption here is not that things literally evolved in seven twenty-four hour days. Among those who believe that evolution is "God at work," the word "day" is understood to mean simply "a period of time." Hence seven "days" might have meant seven sets of a certain number of years. It's a more figurative kind of 'day' just as the Holy Communion is usually thought of as a figurative kind of 'eating Jesus's flesh'.

Edited by wisp, 17 May 2007 - 10:40 PM.


#158 Arturo

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 03:40 AM

Why?


Because you make it look like Spanish Catholics are bloodthirsty religious zealots.

That's right. There were 3 other Inquisitions...one started around the 1200, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Rome Inquisition...If I can recall.


And many Protestant countries had religious prosecutions against Catholics. They might not be called "Inquisition", but they are basically the same.

Or are you going to say that there were never prosecutions in Switzerland or England?

Beliefs are such a bad thing to have. I believe in something, and you believe in something else. I don't like the Catholic Church for obvious reasons, you get offended. I'm sorry, but I just don't like the Catholic Church. The people are all good though. Church, no.


I don't get offended if someone critisizes teh Catholic Church. Mainly because I do it many times, because of obvious reasons. Criticism is not offensive. What is offensive is blatant insulting.

Why not?


Because God gave us a brain to think and investigate the truth of this world. The Sacred Bible may be God's Word as Dei Verbum's Constitution says, but it is NEITHER a historical text, NOR a science text. Why do they say that? Because the Bible contains blatant mistakes involving both of them.

Evolution is a scientifical fact, not a mere hypothesis. The Pope John Paul II recognized this. But taht doesn't mean Genesis is false. It just means taht it cannot be interpretted literally. Just like Revelations or the Song of Solomon.

Clearly you don't realize I'm speaking out against both sides of the spectrum.


I still don¡'t get why Puritans are "Catholic's inventions"

I still think that sounds a bit too gross. So bread and wine turns into blood and flesh. Eww. We're eating a dead man's unseemingly ending supply of flesh.


A God, not a dead man.

Edited by Arturo, 18 May 2007 - 03:40 AM.


#159 Wolf O'Donnell

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 04:02 AM

Evolution is a scientifical fact, not a mere hypothesis. The Pope John Paul II recognized this. But taht doesn't mean Genesis is false. It just means taht it cannot be interpretted literally. Just like Revelations or the Song of Solomon.


Correction. Especially Revelations. Its canonicity has always been... well, iffy. The most famous Protestant of them all, Martin Luther, doubted its canonicity and so do other people of other Christian faiths.

I still think that sounds a bit too gross. So bread and wine turns into blood and flesh. Eww. We're eating a dead man's unseemingly ending supply of flesh.


Funnily enough that's why the Romans thought the early Christians were disgusting and perverted.

#160 Arturo

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 09:24 AM

The canonicity of the Song of Solomon was very much doubted, among other reasons because it doesn't even mention God. It wasn't until the 1st century AFTER Christ when it was argued whether it was canonical.

#161 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 03:18 PM

Because you make it look like Spanish Catholics are bloodthirsty religious zealots.


...thats right. I'm sure the Spanish Catholics of today are dying to bleed a couple hundred people. I'm talking about history here, not insulting the populace.

And many Protestant countries had religious prosecutions against Catholics. They might not be called "Inquisition", but they are basically the same.

Or are you going to say that there were never prosecutions in Switzerland or England?

[sarcasm]Protestants are perfect. They do nothing wrong.[/sarcasm]

I don't get offended if someone critisizes teh Catholic Church. Mainly because I do it many times, because of obvious reasons. Criticism is not offensive. What is offensive is blatant insulting.


Good thing I was just criticizing, then.

Because God gave us a brain to think and investigate the truth of this world. The Sacred Bible may be God's Word as Dei Verbum's Constitution says, but it is NEITHER a historical text, NOR a science text. Why do they say that? Because the Bible contains blatant mistakes involving both of them.


Christianity has lost another one. You make it sound as if Science comes first. I'm here to tell you that no, that's not the case. An all knowing all seeing deity comes first.

Evolution is a scientifical fact, not a mere hypothesis.

Oh dear. Not the last time I checked. You see, evolution relies on mutations in the cells of the body. And according to most science texts I've read, mutations cause information in the genes to be lost.

Allow me now to pull out some Creationists view on the whole subject. You've probably read these before, but...it's pretty much true.

Here ya go.

A God, not a dead man.


Jesus was a man. That's the key element that makes him our savior.

#162 Hero of Slime

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 03:43 PM

Evolution is a fact. Whether you believe the earth is thousands or billions of years old. Instances of evolution have been recorded. Man has even been the cause of some of it. Evolution is a genetic change in a population, a small change over a small period of time is still evolution and has been recorded by scientists and historians.

Christianity has lost another one. You make it sound as if Science comes first. I'm here to tell you that no, that's not the case. An all knowing all seeing deity comes first.

So arturo is not a christian because of science? I don't think he said science came first.

Edited by The Zol, 18 May 2007 - 03:44 PM.


#163 Arturo

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 04:49 PM

Christianity has lost another one. You make it sound as if Science comes first. I'm here to tell you that no, that's not the case. An all knowing all seeing deity comes first.

Christianity is about salvation. Not about scientifical facts. If God had wanted to speak to our rationality, he could have done it. Jesus, as the Verb of God, could have proved scientifically everything he said is true. But he didn't. Why?

Because Christianism has absolutely nothing to do with sciences. Just like Jesus doesn't speak about quantum physics, quantum physics don't speak about God.

I don't say that science is more true than religion. I just say that young earth creationism disguised in a pseudo-scientifical way is a lie.


Oh dear. Not the last time I checked. You see, evolution relies on mutations in the cells of the body. And according to most science texts I've read, mutations cause information in the genes to be lost.


Those books are wrong then. A mutation is a change in genetic infomation. There are three basical kinds of mutations: the ones that are just a change of the of bases within a gene, called genetic. These are responsibble, for example, of the sickle cell disease, caused by the substitution of a glutamic acid into a valine. The second type of mutations is the one caused by the changes on a whole gene. Those mutations are called "chromosomic" For example, the "cri du chat" sindrom. And there is a third kind of mutations, which is teh one that affects the number of chromosmes, such as Klinefelter's syndrome.

You might be saying that all the examples of mutations I gave you cannot result in evolution, because all of them are bad for the one who suffers them. That is why I will show you some examples of the good ones:

-Sickle-cell disease. Yes, this disease is good. It has been observed taht this disease is fairly common in populations where malaria si common. How is this justified? This disease is just suffered by the people with both mutant genes. But it has been observed that the people with a mutant gene and a normal one are more resistant to malaria. Thsi people are better adapted than normal people and than teh people with this disease. What does tghis result into? That the places where having a mutant gene is an advantage are the places where that gene appears most.

-Biston betularia. Yes, this example is classical. These moths used to be white and became black. I am sure you ahve heard this a million of times. That is why I am not going to explain it.

-Domestication of plants and animals. Just look to the domesticated races and the wild ones. For example wolfs and the many dog races. Or wild corn and domestic one. There are many examples of those. If we, humans, have been able to provoke such big changes in animals and plants just by breeding them in such a short time, why is it not possible for nature?

Allow me now to pull out some Creationists view on the whole subject. You've probably read these before, but...it's pretty much true.

Here ya go.


I seriously wished I hadn't read that. It's a total waste of time. Those arguments are ridiculous. Anyway, I am going to counterargument:

"It should be clear that the claim for an inherent evolutionary increase in entropy and organization is based on an arbitrary model which shows signs of having been constructed simply to yield the desired result... There is nothing in evolutionary or developmental biology that justifies their assumptions that a successful mutation (which seems merely to mean a selectively neutral one in their model) is always associated with an increase in some global measure of phenotype.

Look at the global distributions of malaria and that kind of anemia I wrote about. There is a direct relation between the advantages of that phenotype and the distribution of it. This disease is only common where it's a successful mutation. That is why it is so common in Afrika.

Nor is there anything to support the assumption that new species arise as the result of single gene mutations and are initially genetically uniform. If these assumptions are removed, the whole edifice collapses.


The evolutionary theory doesn't say a new species appear out of a single mutation, but out of many mutations. But a new species can be created through mutations. Last I checked, wolves and dogs were different species.

Mutations with drastic phenotypic effects are overwhelmingly likely to cause disorganization of development, as a glance around a Drosophila lab will convince anyone."

Drastic changes are normally nothing good. But small changes have been observed to be good for the animal. Just like the colours in Biston betularia.

But there are examples of beneficial changes caused by drastic mutations: look to our chromosome 2. It is teh only chrmosomic difference we have to our most related species. It seems very likely taht our ancestors suffered a very drastic mutation resulting in the fusion of two of our chromosmes in one. Because monkeys have 24 and we have 23, and our second chromosome is the only one we have that they don't.

Mutations usually cause a decrease of information, to change from one type of animal to another "higher on the evolutionary tree" would require an increase in vast amounts of information. Only intelligence generates information. Hence there is no way for "chance" to produce evolutionary changes.


Firstly: where did this people get the idea that mutations are the loss of information from? Because, even if information is lost sometimes, most times it is just changed, or even new one is produced. All of these phenomena have been observed.

And there is no such thing like levels in the evolutionary tree. We don't have vast amounts of information. We just have for example, three times the ammount of genes of a bee. And that ios ignoring that only about 30% of our genes are truly genes, i. e. only 30% of our genes are transcribed, and therefore show as a phenotype.

THERE HAS NOT BEEN ENOUGH TIME, even if long ages time frame was valid
" for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." -Exodus 20:9-11

Very scientifical. Quoting a book from the 1st milennium before Christ inn a "so called" scientifical article. Did you know that authority arguments are not valid in sciences and philosophy?

Most chronometers (ways to date earth's age) point to relatively "young" earth, that is in the range of thousands as compared to millions or billions of years. The few that allow but don't require an ancient earth (the radiometric chronometers) are based on questionable assumptions that can be shown to be false.


And canyons, mountain ranges and oceans can be formed in 6000 years? Right. If there are so many chronometers, why don't they show examples of it?

Anonymous, "The Disappearing U.S., " Scientific American, vol. 211 (October 1964), p. 58. "The question of how fast the U.S. land mass is being washed into the sea has been given a new answer by two Princeton University geologists, Sheldon Judson and Dale F. Ritter. They calculate that solid and dissolved material carried by the rivers of the U.S. is sufficient to lower the average land surface by 2.4 inches in 1,000 years, a rate about twice as high as previous estimates.

"The authors conclude: 'Taking the average height of the United States above sea level as 2,300 feet and assuming that the rates of erosion reported here are representative, we find that it would take 11 to 12 million years to move to the oceans a volume equivalent to that of the United States lying above sea level. A this rate there has been enough time since the Cretaceous to destroy such a land mass six times over'."

Have these people never read about tectonic plates?

An interesting exercise is to look up the following topics in old encyclopedias and textbooks (1940's and 1950's) and then see what is being said about them in more recent years. Although these were given as proofs of evolution in school and college textbooks you will find them missing in most present day textbooks though still to be seen in some textbooks and still used as examples by some unknowing teachers. You will find retractions by famous evolutionists in their "professional journals". Sometimes you will also see denials of the retraction in the popular media this because they admit among themselves what they deny to the general public. Some of the following examples have been shown to be frauds or hoaxes. All are at least faulty examples for evolution:

Piltdown man, Nebraska Man, Java Man, Feathered dinosaur, Recapitulation theory, Peppered moths, Mars meteorite, archaeopterix, coelacanth, transitional fossils (which should be numerous turn out to be only a few which are questionable), and the "horse series".


Except for Piltdown man, none of thpse (as far as I know, because I don't know about all those cases) have been proven to be frauds. And what do coelacanths have to do with evolution?

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states that in the physical universe all processes are running down, being depleted or wearing out. That is everything is "going "downhill". Although this downward trend can be delayed or postponed, but it can do so only with the input of energy and information. Eventually everything will wear out, decay, or become depleted. In an effort to avoid this "law" some evolutionists will try to make a distinction about "open" and "closed" systems. The distinction "doesn't wash" because whether open or closed the 2nd Law can only be overcome if there is an input of information as well as energy. Chance alone does not provide information! The theory of evolution postulates the opposite of this universal law! For a more detailed discussion of this topic see Dr. Menton's are "There Ought to be A Law and There Is".

The second law of themodynamics says nothing about information, but about energy. And of course we have an input of energy. It's called sun and it shines above us.


Honestly, those arguments are utterly ridiculous

Jesus was a man. That's the key element that makes him our savior.


But he was as well a God. And the Holy Communion is his greatest act of love. Feeding us with his very flesh and blood.

#164 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 02:20 AM

Christianity is about salvation. Not about scientifical facts. If God had wanted to speak to our rationality, he could have done it. Jesus, as the Verb of God, could have proved scientifically everything he said is true. But he didn't. Why?

Because Christianism has absolutely nothing to do with sciences. Just like Jesus doesn't speak about quantum physics, quantum physics don't speak about God.


Acknowledging God in all aspects of human life is always a good thing.

I don't say that science is more true than religion. I just say that young earth creationism disguised in a pseudo-scientifical way is a lie.

Amen.

Those books are wrong then. A mutation is a change in genetic infomation. There are three basical kinds of mutations: the ones that are just a change of the of bases within a gene, called genetic. These are responsibble, for example, of the sickle cell disease, caused by the substitution of a glutamic acid into a valine. The second type of mutations is the one caused by the changes on a whole gene. Those mutations are called "chromosomic" For example, the "cri du chat" sindrom. And there is a third kind of mutations, which is teh one that affects the number of chromosmes, such as Klinefelter's syndrome

You might be saying that all the examples of mutations I gave you cannot result in evolution, because all of them are bad for the one who suffers them. That is why I will show you some examples of the good ones:


-Sickle-cell disease. Yes, this disease is good. It has been observed taht this disease is fairly common in populations where malaria si common. How is this justified? This disease is just suffered by the people with both mutant genes. But it has been observed that the people with a mutant gene and a normal one are more resistant to malaria. Thsi people are better adapted than normal people and than teh people with this disease. What does tghis result into? That the places where having a mutant gene is an advantage are the places where that gene appears most.


A mutation is a mutation. Mutations are errors. The fact that people heterozygous with the mutated allele are somewhat immune to malaria doesn't mean they wont have defeciencies in other places. Most cases of heterozygote advantage have anemia to go along with their immunity. Helpful much? Nope.

-Biston betularia. Yes, this example is classical. These moths used to be white and became black. I am sure you ahve heard this a million of times. That is why I am not going to explain it.


From what I read of this, they tried to justify the change in population of dark peppered moths by saying that the light colored ones darkened their melanin. Maybe I've read it wrong, but...why couldn't they have reproduced and just made more dark colored peppered moths?

-Domestication of plants and animals. Just look to the domesticated races and the wild ones. For example wolfs and the many dog races. Or wild corn and domestic one. There are many examples of those. If we, humans, have been able to provoke such big changes in animals and plants just by breeding them in such a short time, why is it not possible for nature?

I don't get what you're trying to get at with this one.

Last I checked, wolves and dogs were different species.


Hee. They aren't.


Firstly: where did this people get the idea that mutations are the loss of information from? Because, even if information is lost sometimes, most times it is just changed, or even new one is produced. All of these phenomena have been observed.

It is a loss of information. You’re losing something that keeps yourself stable.

And canyons, mountain ranges and oceans can be formed in 6000 years? Right. If there are so many chronometers, why don't they show examples of it?


Way to throw God out the window.

But he was as well a God. And the Holy Communion is his greatest act of love. Feeding us with his very flesh and blood.


He IS THE God. And don’t you forget it, buster brown. And, I think his greatest act of love is…hmmm…lemme think here…dying for our sins. I believe that’s the factor you’re looking for.

#165 Arturo

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 02:47 AM

Acknowledging God in all aspects of human life is always a good thing.


Not if by doing it you need to neglect truth.

A mutation is a mutation. Mutations are errors. The fact that people heterozygous with the mutated allele are somewhat immune to malaria doesn't mean they wont have defeciencies in other places. Most cases of heterozygote advantage have anemia to go along with their immunity. Helpful much? Nope.

It is helpful in any place where there is malaria. Hence an evident proof of natural selection. This mutation is common only in the places where it's an advantage.

From what I read of this, they tried to justify the change in population of dark peppered moths by saying that the light colored ones darkened their melanin. Maybe I've read it wrong, but...why couldn't they have reproduced and just made more dark colored peppered moths?


No, it's not that. The moth was originally white, and there were no dark moths. With the Industrial Revolution, some dark one were found, and soon, most of them were dark. Now, since those regions in England are no longer industrial, most moths are light again. Why is this? The tree were they hid were darker because of contamination, and therefore the mutant moths had more probabilities of surviving, because they could hide better. It's just a case natural selection.


Hee. They aren't.


A wolf cannot breed witha Chihuahua. That is what makes them different species.

It is a loss of information. You’re losing something that keeps yourself stable.


That's false. It's a change in information. It can be in the form of losing genes, getting new ones are changing the ones that already exist. That is not a loss of information.

And usually, they are a loss of stability. But not always. That is what makes the mutation useful. Look to Afrika. They have much higher proportion of that anemia.

Way to throw God out the window.


Oh yes, God created those mountains that seem to be ancient volcanos that never were according to you to confuse us.

What an evil God you have.

He IS THE God. And don’t you forget it, buster brown. And, I think his greatest act of love is…hmmm…lemme think here…dying for our sins. I believe that’s the factor you’re looking for.


Those acts are strongly tied. They are the very same thing, offering his body and sacrificing himself. They are nothing different.

#166 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 03:23 AM

Not if by doing it you need to neglect truth.


Truth is God.

It is helpful in any place where there is malaria. Hence an evident proof of natural selection. This mutation is common only in the places where it's an advantage.

Not at all. So now they have a mutation, plus anemia. How is that helpful? You tell me.

No, it's not that. The moth was originally white, and there were no dark moths. With the Industrial Revolution, some dark one were found, and soon, most of them were dark. Now, since those regions in England are no longer industrial, most moths are light again. Why is this? The tree were they hid were darker because of contamination, and therefore the mutant moths had more probabilities of surviving, because they could hide better. It's just a case natural selection.


Noo, there were light and dark, and the light colored moths hid better on trees than the darker colored ones until Industrial Revolution, when the dark colored moths could hide better because of the blackened trees and the light colored ones were getting eaten more.

A wolf cannot breed witha Chihuahua. That is what makes them different species.

Most scientists agree that dogs and wolves pretty much are the same species. Get your facts straight.

That's false. It's a change in information. It can be in the form of losing genes, getting new ones are changing the ones that already exist. That is not a loss of information.


Losing genes. Losing information. Genes are our information, bud.

And usually, they are a loss of stability. But not always. That is what makes the mutation useful. Look to Afrika. They have much higher proportion of that anemia.

Mutations aren't useful.

Oh yes, God created those mountains that seem to be ancient volcanos that never were according to you to confuse us.

What an evil God you have.


If God told me the ocean was made of jello and you told me it was made of H20, I'd...probably believe him.

Those acts are strongly tied. They are the very same thing, offering his body and sacrificing himself. They are nothing different.


Here's the difference: One requires the burden of the sins of the world bearing down upon him and the other is a remembrance of him. Sounds pretty much the same? Nope.

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 19 May 2007 - 03:28 AM.


#167 Selena

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 03:29 AM

Erm...

That article above was... no.

I'm not a biology fanatic, but even I'm having a hard time swallowing the notion that mutations are something that should always be considered bad and I think that's grossly inaccurate view of what they really are. They are certainly not 'errors,' and I wonder who told you something like that. A mutation is something that's neither good nor bad. All a mutation is is a change. It's not information loss, it's information alteration, to stay on that level of thinking. You do not, in normal and natural conditions, generally 'lose' a gene or gene pair. Genetic deletion is one /kind/ of mutation among many others. Animals with mutations aren't necessarily weaker or worse off than their companions. In some cases they could be superior in one way or another, depending on what the mutation is. The fact that mutations even occur and are observed would make it seem that creatures are ever changing. Such is the way of genetics.

But then I'm one of those people who thinks that religion and science don't have to be enemies and find it quite odd that people try to throw them into a boxing ring. It's actually quite illogical. God obviously made you intelligent for a reason. Science is one expression of that intelligence, and by rejecting the sciences all together I feel as if that's rejecting part of the gift he gave you in the first place. Religion explain the why, and science the how. They're a nice team, actually.

I have never seen where the bible actually promotes either evolution or creationism. Genesis is incredibly vague and often grandiose in it's story telling, sounding much like surrounding Mesopotamian mythologies than anything else. It never says how god formed the stars. It never says how god made animal life. The absence of description does not necessarily mean he went 'poof, a horse' or 'poof, a lion.' It did not say god brought them forth contemporary things from thin air. It seems perfectly reasonable that he could use evolution as his own personal tool. Get 'life' going at one point, and have it spread from there until we've reached what we have today. Either on this planet alone or a spark of life started somewhere else or in various places of the universe. As for the creation of man, that's up in the air and won't touch on it as there isn't enough data either way.

It's not a dent to religious pride to acknowledge that the world and universe around us is constantly changing. If it wasn't, things would be awfully dull around here. As for the young earth theory, then dinosaurs and the ice age must have lasted for about three seconds. There were no humans during most of those 'days.' Hell, his 'days' occurred before he formally separated night into day. I don't think our meaning of time would exactly apply to an ageless, all powerful being.

(and for the actual record, domesticated dogs are a subspecies of canis lupus. They can still technically crossbreed but are still a bit different.)

#168 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 11:32 AM

I'm not a biology fanatic, but even I'm having a hard time swallowing the notion that mutations are something that should always be considered bad and I think that's grossly inaccurate view of what they really are. They are certainly not 'errors,' and I wonder who told you something like that. A mutation is something that's neither good nor bad. All a mutation is is a change. It's not information loss, it's information alteration, to stay on that level of thinking. You do not, in normal and natural conditions, generally 'lose' a gene or gene pair. Genetic deletion is one /kind/ of mutation among many others. Animals with mutations aren't necessarily weaker or worse off than their companions. In some cases they could be superior in one way or another, depending on what the mutation is. The fact that mutations even occur and are observed would make it seem that creatures are ever changing. Such is the way of genetics.


But then I'm one of those people who thinks that religion and science don't have to be enemies and find it quite odd that people try to throw them into a boxing ring. It's actually quite illogical. God obviously made you intelligent for a reason. Science is one expression of that intelligence, and by rejecting the sciences all together I feel as if that's rejecting part of the gift he gave you in the first place. Religion explain the why, and science the how. They're a nice team, actually.

Jesus and Evolution can never and will never go together.

I have never seen where the bible actually promotes either evolution or creationism. Genesis is incredibly vague and often grandiose in it's story telling, sounding much like surrounding Mesopotamian mythologies than anything else. It never says how god formed the stars. It never says how god made animal life. The absence of description does not necessarily mean he went 'poof, a horse' or 'poof, a lion.' It did not say god brought them forth contemporary things from thin air. It seems perfectly reasonable that he could use evolution as his own personal tool. Get 'life' going at one point, and have it spread from there until we've reached what we have today. Either on this planet alone or a spark of life started somewhere else or in various places of the universe. As for the creation of man, that's up in the air and won't touch on it as there isn't enough data either way.


It doesn't say how things were made. So maybe you didn't know. What I can tell you is that evolution could not have happened in seven days time.

It's not a dent to religious pride to acknowledge that the world and universe around us is constantly changing. If it wasn't, things would be awfully dull around here. As for the young earth theory, then dinosaurs and the ice age must have lasted for about three seconds. There were no humans during most of those 'days.' Hell, his 'days' occurred before he formally separated night into day. I don't think our meaning of time would exactly apply to an ageless, all powerful being.


Day and Night were named in the first few verses of Genesis when God seperated the Darkness and Light.

#169 Arturo

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 02:13 PM

Truth is God.


And how do you prove taht your God is the true one?

Not at all. So now they have a mutation, plus anemia. How is that helpful? You tell me.


THEY ARE IMMUNE TO MALARIA. HOW IS THAT NOT HELPFUL? Plus, they seem to have slightly higher fertility levels.

Noo, there were light and dark, and the light colored moths hid better on trees than the darker colored ones until Industrial Revolution, when the dark colored moths could hide better because of the blackened trees and the light colored ones were getting eaten more.


I must find my sources, but I am pretty sure that there are no records of dark moths until fairly recent days. So a white moth suffered a mutation to brown. Just like some people are albine.

Most scientists agree that dogs and wolves pretty much are the same species. Get your facts straight.

They may be genetically near enough to reproduce. But the differences in body are so many that they CANNOT. A wolf and a chihuahua cannot engage in intercourse. It's impossible. The wolf is too big for the dog.

They are genetically isolated. So it's just a matter of time that they will be distant enough not to be able to reproduce. Just liek donkeys and horses, taht have descendence, but taht descendence cannot breed.


That's false. It's a change in information. It can be in the form of losing genes, getting new ones are changing the ones that already exist. That is not a loss of information.

Losing genes. Losing information. Genes are our information, bud.


Learn to read bud.

That's false. It's a change in information. It can be in the form of losing genes, getting new ones orchanging the ones that already exist. That is not a loss of information.


(I corrected a mistake I had)

Learn to read. I have spent an important part of my posts explaining you what a mutation is. DON'T REPEAT AGAIN THAT MUTATIONS ARE A LOSS OF INFORMATION.

Mutations aren't useful.

Not dying from malaria isn't useful.

Note: People who are heterozhigotic (sp?) to taht anemia do NOT suffer the illness, but are in turn immune to malaria, and seem to have higher levels of fertility.

If God told me the ocean was made of jello and you told me it was made of H20, I'd...probably believe him.


You have finally convinced me that Creationism is one of the Christian heresies of our time. Before you jump to my throat, listen to me:

-You have recognized that the many proofs that the Earth is old are false. It's just that God created them. Therefore, your God created the proofs of evolution and Earth antiquity. (Omphalos theory)
-Your God also gave us a brain, that is used think, to reason.
-Since your God is omnipotent, he should know that those proofs would lead many people to believe in a (false) evolution. This means taht your God created those proofs in order for people to believe in evolution.
-Your God, wants us, therefore in Hell.
-Which proves your God is evil.
-Which, in Christianism is a heresy, because God is said to be Love in the Bible. (Deus Caritas est)

The God you believe in isn't Jesus' God. Jesus' God wouldn't leave evolution proofs to condemn humanity.

So heresy, I say.

Here's the difference: One requires the burden of the sins of the world bearing down upon him and the other is a remembrance of him. Sounds pretty much the same? Nope.


You don't understand the Catholic view. We believe that the bread and wine transform into the flesh and blood of the crucified one. It's teh symbol of his death, because his the perfect sacrifice, the Lamb of God, who cleanses the sin through his blood. And we feed ourselves ith that flesh and that blood. If he hadn't died on the cross, teh Communion would have no sense as well.

Jesus and Evolution can never and will never go together.


HERESY!!!!!!

Why don't you just say that God created the world using the laws of physics and evolution? How does THIS go against Christianity?

You have to learn to see teh beauty of God's creation in the biological evolution.

Creation is evolution.

It doesn't say how things were made. So maybe you didn't know. What I can tell you is that evolution could not have happened in seven days time.


Literal interpretation of the Bible leads to the heresy of believing God is evil.

#170 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 04:04 PM

And how do you prove taht your God is the true one?

Well he's changed my life for the better. He's blessed me with a good one too. I am faithful to Him and I will defend him to the last, if I must be shamed for it.

I must find my sources, but I am pretty sure that there are no records of dark moths until fairly recent days. So a white moth suffered a mutation to brown. Just like some people are albine.

From what I've been studying there were both, and the dark moths thrived. But nowadays the light moths have made a comeback.

They may be genetically near enough to reproduce. But the differences in body are so many that they CANNOT. A wolf and a chihuahua cannot engage in intercourse. It's impossible. The wolf is too big for the dog.

They are still counted as the same species.

Learn to read. I have spent an important part of my posts explaining you what a mutation is. DON'T REPEAT AGAIN THAT MUTATIONS ARE A LOSS OF INFORMATION.


They're losing genes. Genes contain all the information needed to characterize an organism. They're losing information.

Not dying from malaria isn't useful.

Note: People who are heterozhigotic (sp?) to taht anemia do NOT suffer the illness, but are in turn immune to malaria, and seem to have higher levels of fertility.

An illness is an illness whether suffered or not. It's still inside them. That's still not very helpful to anyone. That's like having living yet inacting worm inside you. Not too good.

If God told me the ocean was made of jello and you told me it was made of H20, I'd...probably believe him.


You have finally convinced me that Creationism is one of the Christian heresies of our time.

I don't like the idea of Creationism.

Before you jump to my throat, listen to me:

-You have recognized that the many proofs that the Earth is old are false. It's just that God created them. Therefore, your God created the proofs of evolution and Earth antiquity. (Omphalos theory)
-Your God also gave us a brain, that is used think, to reason.
-Since your God is omnipotent, he should know that those proofs would lead many people to believe in a (false) evolution. This means taht your God created those proofs in order for people to believe in evolution.
-Your God, wants us, therefore in Hell.
-Which proves your God is evil.
-Which, in Christianism is a heresy, because God is said to be Love in the Bible. (Deus Caritas est)

The God you believe in isn't Jesus' God. Jesus' God wouldn't leave evolution proofs to condemn humanity.

So heresy, I say.


1. What the? Have you lost all sense of decency, at long last?
2. God is everything. God is God. He makes love, he makes hate. He is anger, he is pure kindness. But above all he's God. He loves me and I love him. Besides, I don't think someone who offers you salvation could be evil, especially the one offered to us.

You don't understand the Catholic view. We believe that the bread and wine transform into the flesh and blood of the crucified one. It's teh symbol of his death, because his the perfect sacrifice, the Lamb of God, who cleanses the sin through his blood. And we feed ourselves ith that flesh and that blood. If he hadn't died on the cross, teh Communion would have no sense as well.

It's not on the list of things we have to do. Yes, Jesus sometimes says that we have to feed on him, but I believe he was reffering to being saved.

HERESY!!!!!!

Why don't you just say that God created the world using the laws of physics and evolution? How does THIS go against Christianity?


Because he didn't. If he wanted us to know, it would've been in his Word. Because EVERYTHING is already in there.

You have to learn to see teh beauty of God's creation in the biological evolution.
Creation is evolution.

Evolution is not Creation. Evolution is false. Creation is truth.

Literal interpretation of the Bible leads to the heresy of believing God is evil.


Keep telling yourself that.

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 19 May 2007 - 04:07 PM.


#171 Arturo

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 04:36 PM

You are the kind of person that if had been born in Iraq, would be commiting suicide and killing the masses of the unfaithful ones. And that's something very, very, very sad.

Trying to reason with you is compltely useless, because you wouldn't even read what I have wasted my time at writing.

I haven't lost any decence. I am very serious in saying Creationism IS a heresy. One of the heresies of our time. You would understand why I say that if you actually read what I wrote.

I don't want you to agree with me, I just want you to read and respect other people's point of view. But you continue making general statements saying something is true or false, without ever considering what you are being told.

Having faith is not being like a stone, saying "Evolution is false and Creation is true" continuously. Having faith includes overcoming the obstacles of doubts. Some doubts that I have.

If thinking is a sin, I don't want to be in Heaven with such an evil God.

The God in whom I believe gave the brain to humans because thinking is good.

There is no-one blinder than the one who doesn't want to see.

#172 Selena

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 05:04 PM

Again, no, a mutation is NOT a simple loss of genes. Though you did say Biology was 'boring,' so perhaps you have not studied up on the subject in depth. Genetic deletion is the removal of a gene, and that is, AGAIN, one of many different mutations that occur. MOST mutations are changes in information. You lose the original, but you GAIN new 'information.' A change. That's all. A mutation can either be destructive OR beneficial depending on what has occurred. For the record, anemia is not the only mutation known to the world of genetics.



- Jesus and Evolution can never and will never go together.
- It doesn't say how things were made. So maybe you didn't know. What I can tell you is that evolution could not have happened in seven days time.


- As far as I know, Jesus was more concerned with bringing moral lessons to humanity than he was giving lectures on either creationism or evolution. But I'm sure he's glad that people are deciding his views for him?

- You weren't exactly there either, so I'm quite sure that neither of us know how long god considered one of his days to be. Which was what my point was. What we are capable of knowing, however (and thanks to god allowing us to be semi-intelligent), is that earth isn't exactly 6 or 7 thousand years old. Not even considering when humanity came into being, that time span already cuts out plenty of the earliest known cultures. And dinosaurs. And the ice age. Both of which are hard to deny.


And... ugh, nevermind, this kind of argument is going to hurt my brain from the sheer illogic involved.

For the record, dogs are a subspecies of canis lupus, meaning they can still cross-breed but are still a bit different. In addition, communion is a simple religious tradition - no more, and no less. I'm pretty sure they don't actually want to fry up some Jesus and have a nice glass of wine. Catholics aren't Hannibal Lecter wannabes. It's obviously symbolism, and should not be taken too seriously or literally. Brain hurting. Leaving.

#173 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 08:34 PM

You are the kind of person that if had been born in Iraq, would be commiting suicide and killing the masses of the unfaithful ones. And that's something very, very, very sad.


That's not a very nice thing to say.

Trying to reason with you is compltely useless, because you wouldn't even read what I have wasted my time at writing.

I wasted more time reading and responding than you did writing.

I haven't lost any decence. I am very serious in saying Creationism IS a heresy. One of the heresies of our time. You would understand why I say that if you actually read what I wrote.


I don't really like the label Creationism. Makes it sound like it's just an idea to pass around. I carry it as truth. If you've been reading me about Creationism then you'd see that.

I don't want you to agree with me, I just want you to read and respect other people's point of view. But you continue making general statements saying something is true or false, without ever considering what you are being told.

Consider that something that goes against what I believe is true true? I believe trying to explain a supernatural phenom takes away it's majesty and mystery. Trying to put science with God does the same.

Having faith is not being like a stone, saying "Evolution is false and Creation is true" continuously. Having faith includes overcoming the obstacles of doubts. Some doubts that I have.


From what it appears you're putting your faith in science than in God. If that's not, then I'm reading you wrong.

If thinking is a sin, I don't want to be in Heaven with such an evil God.

The God in whom I believe gave the brain to humans because thinking is good.

God can't be evil. Evil doesn't exist where God is concerned. That's human logic used on a supernatural being and that is never good.

There is no-one blinder than the one who doesn't want to see.


I don't see Science as truth. I don't want to. It hurts my faith in my God. What happened in Genesis...that in 7 days God made the Universe and life on our planet, can only be described by supernatural means and not petty human logic and science.

You weren't exactly there either, so I'm quite sure that neither of us know how long god considered one of his days to be. Which was what my point was. What we are capable of knowing, however (and thanks to god allowing us to be semi-intelligent), is that earth isn't exactly 6 or 7 thousand years old. Not even considering when humanity came into being, that time span already cuts out plenty of the earliest known cultures. And dinosaurs. And the ice age. Both of which are hard to deny.


Yom means, "day." Now, there are various definitions in conjunction with Yom, and especially it can get confusing while reading the Bible...but since the Genesis account mentions morning and evening, and day and night, it's correct to assume that he's talking...about...a day.

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 19 May 2007 - 08:34 PM.


#174 Arturo

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Posted 20 May 2007 - 11:59 AM

That's not a very nice thing to say.


Truth is hardly ever nice.

But even if I say things you don't find nice, there isn't the slightest bit of hate on them. Hate the sin, but love the sinner, I say.

I wasted more time reading and responding than you did writing.


It's far more difficult searching for scientifical sources than saying "Evolution is bad", "The world was created in seven days" or "Jesus and evolution are incompatible". Stating general things as rules without backing them is easy.

And you might have read my posts, but you answer as if you hadn't.

Consider that something that goes against what I believe is true true? I believe trying to explain a supernatural phenom takes away it's majesty and mystery. Trying to put science with God does the same.


The only one here trying to put science with God is you. When I talk about God, I believe he created the world, no matter how. When I talk about evolution I don't mention God, because he has no place in science. That doesn't mean taht scioences and religion are incompatible. Just taht they talk about different things. Just like you don't talk about litearture in Maths, you don't talk about God in sciences.


From what it appears you're putting your faith in science than in God. If that's not, then I'm reading you wrong.


I just say that faith doesn't rely on what you can see, and therefore is difficult to believe. I can have no security that Christianism is right. How do I know that Islam or Buddhism are not the right religions? How do I know he even exists?

If those doubts didn't exist, faith would have no value. If God appeared in front of us and told us Catholicism is teh right way, having faith in the Catholic Church would have no value. It just would be a matter of being sensible.


God can't be evil.


The Christian God cannot be evil by defintion, because he's love. But your God gave us a brain to send the ones who use it to Hell. That is hardly a loving God. A God can be evil. There are many evil Gods on many cultures.

Evil doesn't exist where God is concerned.


Maybe that applies to Jesus' God, but that hardly applies to your God, who created man with a brain, but for whom using it is a sin.

That's human logic used on a supernatural being and that is never good.


Naturalistic fallacy <_<

The Catholic Church is full of saints that used logic on God. The most famous one is St. Thomas of Aquinas. If God created us "in his own image", it means that God has a logic, superior to ours, for he's omnipotent, but it means using logic is good, because the Christian God is good.

But for your very own, heretic God, using logic is bad. That is ok for me, I am n´-one to judge whether a new religion is true. But you can't call it Christianism.


I don't see Science as truth. I don't want to. It hurts my faith in my God. What happened in Genesis...that in 7 days God made the Universe and life on our planet, can only be described by supernatural means and not petty human logic and science.


What a strong faith you have, then.... you are reminding me of something Jesus said (the webpage of the Catholic Church isn't on good mood today and wouldn't let me find it), that faith is like a candle, and is not to be hidden, but to be shown. What you are doing is hidding your faith. And that is what Jesus said was wrong.

I don't care if you think what we can see and check is right. If you are Platonist, good for you. I myself am Platonist sometimes. But what you can't do is pretending evolution is a baseless hypothesis, while creation is a scientifical theory. That is just totally wrong. If you want to ignore what sciences say, that is an option you can take. But you must understand that this option leads to ignoring that God created logic at his image, and therefore it's good using it.

The God of Christianism wants us to accept his truths by faith, but he also wants us to use our logic. Because he made us rational for that reason.

Your God isn't the God of Genesis, even if you think so.

Yom means, "day." Now, there are various definitions in conjunction with Yom, and especially it can get confusing while reading the Bible...but since the Genesis account mentions morning and evening, and day and night, it's correct to assume that he's talking...about...a day.


Jesus says that the Heaven is like eight virgin women. And John the Baptist says he's Agnus Dei, the Lamb of God. That doesn't mean that heaven is eight women and that Jesus wasn't a human, but a sheep.

The Bible is full of metaphorical truths. Not being something you can touch doesn't mean it's false. Saying that only the literal interpretations are true is something purely scientifical. Saying that God created life through evolution and taht teh earth is 4 billions of years old doesn't go against what Genesis says. Because just like heaven is 8 virgin women, is the Earth created in 7 days.

#175 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 20 May 2007 - 02:31 PM

Truth is hardly ever nice.


I enjoy how you think you know who I am and what I believe in.

It's far more difficult searching for scientifical sources than saying "Evolution is bad", "The world was created in seven days" or "Jesus and evolution are incompatible". Stating general things as rules without backing them is easy.

If I believe that God supernaturally created the Earth in seven days then I believe God created the Earth in seven days.

And you might have read my posts, but you answer as if you hadn't.


No, I'm just not convinced.

The only one here trying to put science with God is you. When I talk about God, I believe he created the world, no matter how. When I talk about evolution I don't mention God, because he has no place in science. That doesn't mean taht scioences and religion are incompatible. Just taht they talk about different things. Just like you don't talk about litearture in Maths, you don't talk about God in sciences.

Then why the hell are you trying to convince me that the world was created through natural process when GOD CREATED THE WORLD IN GENESIS?

I just say that faith doesn't rely on what you can see, and therefore is difficult to believe. I can have no security that Christianism is right. How do I know that Islam or Buddhism are not the right religions? How do I know he even exists?

If those doubts didn't exist, faith would have no value. If God appeared in front of us and told us Catholicism is teh right way, having faith in the Catholic Church would have no value. It just would be a matter of being sensible.


You and me are on the same page here.

The Christian God cannot be evil by defintion, because he's love. But your God gave us a brain to send the ones who use it to Hell. That is hardly a loving God. A God can be evil. There are many evil Gods on many cultures.

God is God. He is Everything. I mean, come on. Haven't you heard all his names? He's the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End?

Maybe that applies to Jesus' God, but that hardly applies to your God, who created man with a brain, but for whom using it is a sin.


Humans are fallible.

Naturalistic fallacy <_<

The Catholic Church is full of saints that used logic on God. The most famous one is St. Thomas of Aquinas. If God created us "in his own image", it means that God has a logic, superior to ours, for he's omnipotent, but it means using logic is good, because the Christian God is good.

But for your very own, heretic God, using logic is bad. That is ok for me, I am n´-one to judge whether a new religion is true. But you can't call it Christianism.

Even the concept of God isn't a logical one. God never uses logic. He does what is needed to do even if by our standards it's right or wrong and it's still a righteous act.

What a strong faith you have, then.... you are reminding me of something Jesus said (the webpage of the Catholic Church isn't on good mood today and wouldn't let me find it), that faith is like a candle, and is not to be hidden, but to be shown. What you are doing is hidding your faith. And that is what Jesus said was wrong.


I'm beginning to think you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when I'm concerned. Do you even know I'm a Christian?

I don't care if you think what we can see and check is right. If you are Platonist, good for you. I myself am Platonist sometimes. But what you can't do is pretending evolution is a baseless hypothesis, while creation is a scientifical theory. That is just totally wrong. If you want to ignore what sciences say, that is an option you can take. But you must understand that this option leads to ignoring that God created logic at his image, and therefore it's good using it.

Evolution is just a theory.

The God of Christianism wants us to accept his truths by faith, but he also wants us to use our logic. Because he made us rational for that reason.


I don't see how killing your only son is a rational thing to do. And I'm referring to Abraham and Isaac.

Your God isn't the God of Genesis, even if you think so.

WE HAVE THE SAME GOD! YOU ARE CHRISTIAN, I AM CHRISTIAN. GOD IS GOD!

Jesus says that the Heaven is like eight virgin women. And John the Baptist says he's Agnus Dei, the Lamb of God. That doesn't mean that heaven is eight women and that Jesus wasn't a human, but a sheep.

The Bible is full of metaphorical truths. Not being something you can touch doesn't mean it's false. Saying that only the literal interpretations are true is something purely scientifical. Saying that God created life through evolution and taht teh earth is 4 billions of years old doesn't go against what Genesis says. Because just like heaven is 8 virgin women, is the Earth created in 7 days.


I'm sorry, I'm sorry...did you just refer to a simile as a metaphor?

I'd like for you to find the metaphor behind the words, "day" "night" "evening" "morning" And when you do, I want you to rub it in my face and make me look like a fool.

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 20 May 2007 - 02:32 PM.


#176 Arturo

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Posted 20 May 2007 - 03:00 PM

I enjoy how you think you know who I am and what I believe in.

I just judge by what I read.

No, I'm just not convinced.


After two paragraphs showing you what a mutation is, you still say mutations are a loss of information. Which is just wrong. It's not a matter of agreement. It's a matter of reading and understanding what you are told.

Then why the hell are you trying to convince me that the world was created through natural process when GOD CREATED THE WORLD IN GENESIS?

I am not trying to convince you that it's true. Just that it's scientifically correct, as far as we are concerned.

Humans are fallible.

Then God wanted us to make mistakes.

Even the concept of God isn't a logical one. God never uses logic. He does what is needed to do even if by our standards it's right or wrong and it's still a righteous act.

God is logic. He has his own, superior logic, because he is teh creator of teh logic. He is logic in teh purest state. He's the logos. That you don't understand His logic doesnm't mean it doesn't exist.

I'm beginning to think you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when I'm concerned. Do you even know I'm a Christian?


You THINK you are a Christian. But as far as you are concerned, you aren't, because you believe in an evil God.

I don't see how killing your only son is a rational thing to do. And I'm referring to Abraham and Isaac.


Well, God is the Lord of everything. Abraham just thought that God had his reasons for asking him that. Because, you know, God is omnipotent.

WE HAVE THE SAME GOD! YOU ARE CHRISTIAN, I AM CHRISTIAN. GOD IS GOD!

I am a Christian. I will let you decide a name for your religion, that believes that God gave humans a brain and created evolution proofs, knowing that this would lead to the eternal damnation of many, many people.

I'd like for you to find the metaphor behind the words, "day" "night" "evening" "morning" And when you do, I want you to rub it in my face and make me look like a fool.

The whole story is just a myth, passed on the Jewish people, which doesn't pretend to be a fact, because, among other reason, it literally contradicts teh other myth of Creation and states God "rested" on Saturday, even if he's omnipotent.

The whole purpose of the myth is just to say God created the world, from the smallest things to the humans, who are the kings of Creation, and that God blessed us.

#177 Goose

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Posted 20 May 2007 - 05:11 PM

Careful Arturo, stepping quite close to the line there. No insulting his beliefs like that. Getting kinda personal.

Edited by Goose, 20 May 2007 - 05:12 PM.


#178 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 20 May 2007 - 05:25 PM

I just judge by what I read.


Which by Christian standards isn't something you're supposed to do.

After two paragraphs showing you what a mutation is, you still say mutations are a loss of information. Which is just wrong. It's not a matter of agreement. It's a matter of reading and understanding what you are told.

I don't think humans could understand any natural process. Hence when scientists claim they know what they are talking about, maybe they don't.

I am not trying to convince you that it's true. Just that it's scientifically correct, as far as we are concerned.


I already know that it's scientifically correct, but I don't believe in science.

Then God wanted us to make mistakes.

He didn't.

God is logic. He has his own, superior logic, because he is teh creator of teh logic. He is logic in teh purest state. He's the logos. That you don't understand His logic doesnm't mean it doesn't exist.


God is probably the only one who is logical. Humans aren't. Human logic and God do not go together.

Well, God is the Lord of everything. Abraham just thought that God had his reasons for asking him that. Because, you know, God is omnipotent.

Whatever the reason, killing is bad. I'm just saying that God can do whatever he wants and his actions are justified by his righteousness.

I am a Christian. I will let you decide a name for your religion, that believes that God gave humans a brain and created evolution proofs, knowing that this would lead to the eternal damnation of many, many people.


You're really starting to go overboard.

If anyone's influencing evolutionary thought it's the devil himself.

The whole story is just a myth, passed on the Jewish people, which doesn't pretend to be a fact, because, among other reason, it literally contradicts teh other myth of Creation and states God "rested" on Saturday, even if he's omnipotent.

The whole purpose of the myth is just to say God created the world, from the smallest things to the humans, who are the kings of Creation, and that God blessed us.


Now who's the one generalizing?

#179 vodkamaru

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Posted 20 May 2007 - 11:14 PM

I already know that it's scientifically correct, but I don't believe in science.

What does it mean to not believe in science?

Edited by vodkamaru, 20 May 2007 - 11:15 PM.


#180 SOAP

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 01:19 AM

What the Hell? How did the this thread deteriorate into one of these debates?

I don't know when the next time it'll be able post here at LA but let me just add a couple of things. As far as Genesis goes, a day means day. To say it means otherwise would go against the text original meaning, metaphorical or otherwise. Quite frankly you'd be better off just dismissing the whole Creation Myth entirely than to to totally twist what the Bible actually says just because it doesn't make sense to you. Going with that interpretations wouldn't make sense anyways because you'd still run into problem of the Earth existing for thousands and thousands of years before there ever was a sun or any stars for that matter. That makes less sense than everything being created in 7 days.

That said I don't believe in the Creation story. I think it's a myth that ancient Jews believed long ago but not so much anymore so I don't see why we should be expected to believe it either. We don't believe Lilith existed so why should we believe Adam and Eve existed? Ancient Jews believed Lilith was Adam's first wife so why isn't she in the Bible? Are we just picking and choosing which Jewish beliefs are true and which never happened? Who are we Christians to say which Jewish beliefs are right and wrong anyways? I don't think I'm a bad Christian for not believing God created the world in 7 days. Nowhere in the Bible does it say we're expected to believe that. That's just what ancient people were lead to believe. Besides, we Christians have our own creation story. That's John. In fact the Bible was originally going to be organized with John first with no inclusion of the Old testament whatsoever, but Early Christians felt it was important to keep the Jewish books to remember where their beliefs came from. I don't believe the Old Testament is all that relevant to anyone who isn't Jewish aside as a linkage between the three Abrahamic faiths. But beyond that, Leave the Torah to the Jews to deal with.

Edited by SOAP, 21 May 2007 - 01:21 AM.





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