138 replies to this topic

[FDL]

Of course not. I said that, based on the game text, Ganondorf thinks the gods granted him the Triforce of Power, that they chose him as eligible to have it. My suggestion was that it was not the gods at all, which is as you said, absurd, but rather the sealed Ganondorf from the future of Ocarina of Time.

I have already thought of a few reasons why he could have believed that. 1) He was not stopped by the light spirits like the interlopers were, and thus he believes the gods let him take the Triforce or 2) The fact that he was the "Emperor of Power" or whatever ALttP's JP manual says is the title of the one who gets the ToP made him believe he was chosen by the gods(which he was in a way).

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 03 April 2007 - 03:41 PM.

[Kairu Hakubi]

QUOTE(Kairu Hakubi)
The idea that G-dorf's execution in TP was post-OoT is so ridiculous to me I can't even come up with proof.

And the idea that it was pre-OoT just plain doesn't work. Neither does it after TWW, or in relation to any other game. So, supposedly nonsensical theory, or nonexistent theory?

I meant -directly- post-OoT. People are implying that it's DIRECTLY post-OoT, I'm saying it's another era later.

[LionHarted]

I meant -directly- post-OoT.

What about after a "few years" (which is what Aonuma said)?

[Chaltab]

I have already thought of a few reasons why he could have believed that. 1) He was not stopped by the light spirits like the interlopers were, and thus he believes the gods let him take the Triforce or 2) The fact that he was the "Emperor of Power" or whatever ALttP's JP manual says is the title of the one who gets the ToP made him believe he was chosen by the gods(which he was in a way).

1) That's certainly also part of it. The fact that he was even allowed to have it surely boosted his ego. I think it actually has more to do with the timing, though. Ganondorf never got his hands on the Triforce until after the Master Sword was forged; before then, the Light Spirits or Goddesses themselves decided to intervene because there was truly nothing that could stand against an evil Triforce weilder. Of course, this assumes that the Master Sword wasn't forged until after the Interlopers were sealed away, but there is nothing I can think of that makes this assumption unlikely.

2) Eh, I've never seen the US ALTTP Manual, let alone the Japanese one.

I meant -directly- post-OoT. People are implying that it's DIRECTLY post-OoT, I'm saying it's another era later.

I'd say it's at least fifty years and problably more than 100 based on the way geography had changed. That said, the EXECUTION itself could take place at any time after OOT. It's possible that the Arbiter's grounds existed at that time near, beyond, or maybe even on top of the Dessert Collossus.

[FDL]

1) That's certainly also part of it. The fact that he was even allowed to have it surely boosted his ego. I think it actually has more to do with the timing, though. Ganondorf never got his hands on the Triforce until after the Master Sword was forged; before then, the Light Spirits or Goddesses themselves decided to intervene because there was truly nothing that could stand against an evil Triforce weilder. Of course, this assumes that the Master Sword wasn't forged until after the Interlopers were sealed away, but there is nothing I can think of that makes this assumption unlikely.

Well, I'm not saying why he wasn't stopped, I'm saying the fact that he succeeded led him to believe he was chosen.

2) Eh, I've never seen the US ALTTP Manual, let alone the Japanese one.

Well, I'm pretty sure it says that the person who gets the ToP is either the Forger or Emperor of Power.

[BourgeoisJerry]

Forger was Courage in Japanese, Power in English. Emperor was Power in Japanese if I remember right, and I think wisdom was administrator/judge or something.

[The Missing Link]

Forger was Courage in Japanese, Power in English. Emperor was Power in Japanese if I remember right, and I think wisdom was administrator/judge or something.

In English:

Forger of Strength
Keeper of Wisdom
Juror of Courage

Don't know if that helps, but that's the English manual.

[Chaltab]

Well, I'm not saying why he wasn't stopped, I'm saying the fact that he succeeded led him to believe he was chosen.

Not arguing with you on that point, rather just speculating the reason Din and Co didn't stop him.

[Duke Serkol]

Not arguing with you on that point, rather just speculating the reason Din and Co didn't stop him.

I believe it was because Ganondorf belongs in the world of Hyrule, while the interlopers were... interloping.

[Chaltab]

I believe it was because Ganondorf belongs in the world of Hyrule, while the interlopers were... interloping.

Interesting that you say that, because I don't actually remember this point. I was under the impression that the Interlopers/Twili were just another race in Hyrule until they tried to get the Triforce. It was because they entered the Sacred Realm without permission that they were Interlopers. (I thought.)

Then again, my memory of that cutscene is vague, and I'm happy to be contradicted if I'm wrong.

[Duke Serkol]

There isn't clear proof of either interpretation, note though that the game says "Among those living in the light, interlopers who excelled at magic appeared.", which would imply they were interlopers already among those who lived in the light, the people of Hyrule (the world of Hyrule, not just the kingdom), and only after this the game adds "Wielding powerful sorcery, they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm."
One may also consider the Fused Shadow's similarity to Majora (and other such small things) as significant references, but that's up to you.

And as you said, there HAS to be a reason the Gods came down in full force to stop the Interlopers while they've always been rather passive when Ganondorf did the very same things (only stopping him, without even stripping him of his Triforce part, when no hero appeared and the people desperately prayed to them).

(BTW, not to go further off topic, but if you place Oracles before ALttP, why do you feel the need to state the Master Sword in them as not canon? Just curious)

Edited by Duke Serkol, 06 April 2007 - 02:48 PM.

[LionHarted]

And as you said, there HAS to be a reason the Gods came down in full force to stop the Interlopers while they've always been rather passive when Ganondorf did the very same things (only stopping him, without even stripping him of his Triforce part, when no hero appeared and the people desperately prayed to them).

Realize that you most likely answered your own question.

[FDL]

Not arguing with you on that point, rather just speculating the reason Din and Co didn't stop him.

Alright, I know.

I believe it was because Ganondorf belongs in the world of Hyrule, while the interlopers were... interloping.

You know my feelings on this....

There isn't clear proof of either interpretation, note though that the game says "Among those living in the light, interlopers who excelled at magic appeared.", which would imply they were interlopers already among those who lived in the light, the people of Hyrule (the world of Hyrule, not just the kingdom), and only after this the game adds "Wielding powerful sorcery, they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm."
One may also consider the Fused Shadow's similarity to Majora (and other such small things) as significant references, but that's up to you.

And as you said, there HAS to be a reason the Gods came down in full force to stop the Interlopers while they've always been rather passive when Ganondorf did the very same things (only stopping him, without even stripping him of his Triforce part, when no hero appeared and the people desperately prayed to them).

(BTW, not to go further off topic, but if you place Oracles before ALttP, why do you feel the need to state the Master Sword in them as not canon? Just curious)

....better than I thought. Yeah, I mentioned that in that dead thread. But I'm not sure if you're implying that they weren't from Hyrule originally and just immigrated there or not. Again, realize that interloping could be with the Sacred Realm and not all of Hyrule. They were certainly meddling with the Sacred Realm and not necessarily with all of Hyrule.

[Duke Serkol]

Realize that you most likely answered your own question.

Realize that this is not the case
The Gods froze Ganondorf in time before TWW, essentially only stalling him until an hero could appear (Ganondorf needed for one such person to remove the Master Sword... again). That is absolutely not the same thing as stopping him from getting the Triforce and banishing him themselves, and even if it was, we'd still have to wonder why they didn't handle things themselves in OoT the same way as they did with the interlopers.

Again, realize that interloping could be with the Sacred Realm and not all of Hyrule.

Oh I do realize that, but if this is what Nintendo meant to convey, then that line in the cutscene has been worded rather awkwardly since it first calls them interlopers and only in the successive sentence mentions the Sacred Realm.
But we've debated this already, and know each other's position on this. Let's hear Chaltab's thoughts now

(On a side note, realize is officially the word of the day )

[FDL]

Yeah, I think "realize" subconciously went into my mind when I read Lionhearted's post .

[Fyxe]

It's spelt 'realise' anyhoo. It's an S sound, unless you're Australian.

[LionHarted]

It's spelt 'realise' anyhoo.

I'm sorry.
I speak American.

That is absolutely not the same thing as stopping him from getting the Triforce and banishing him themselves, and even if it was, we'd still have to wonder why they didn't handle things themselves in OoT the same way as they did with the interlopers.

Did they really handle things with the interlopers, or did they just stuff them in a corner (the twilight realm) until Link's actions finished what they started? Obviously the link between the two worlds was left for a reason--that Link could defeat Zant. Obviously the link is now gone, meaning that now the problem of the interlopers has come to a close.

At least, that's how I understand most "sealings".

Edited by LionHarted, 06 April 2007 - 07:33 PM.

[Fyxe]

I'm sorry.
I speak American.

Still an S sound. Dun blame me if your whole country can't spell.

[Duke Serkol]

Did they really handle things with the interlopers, or did they just stuff them in a corner (the twilight realm) until Link's actions finished what they started?

Did Link? The Twili were bottled up pretty well. Only when the Sages sent ganondorf in they opened a whole new can of worms.

Obviously the link between the two worlds was left for a reason--that Link could defeat Zant.

Except Zant would always have been powerless if Ganondorf had not tumbled down that link

In the ending, Zelda says the mirror was given to them so the people of the two worlds could meet, but Midna (after telling her and Link to remember that there is another world tied to theirs) shatters it. This doesn't necessarily mean Midna thought Zelda wrong though. During her journey with Link, Midna had to re-evaluate her beliefs (in particular concerning light dwellers). Changing the mindset of the Twili's ruler, making her understand that living in Twilight has never really been a punishment but a way for the Gods to help them better themselves... that may be what the mirror was meant for, and realizing this Midna may have decided it had served it to its end, and deciding not to let anyone ever turn the nature of the two worlds against one another (remember Zant's line "To merge shadow and light...and make darkness!") destroyed it.
Note the extensive use of conditional. I'm not stating these as facts, just saying what I think may have been the rationale between all of it.

[BourgeoisJerry]

It's spelt 'realise' anyhoo. It's an S sound, unless you're Australian.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/realise
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/realize

[Fyxe]

Still an S sound, Jerry, still an S sound.

[MikePetersSucks]

Dude, shut the hell up about spelling. No one cares.

[Fyxe]

Dude, shut the hell up about spelling. No one cares.

Hey, dude, don't take me so fucking seriously.

Can't remember the last time you made a post that wasn't just an angry statement about something. So you 'shut the hell' up yourself if you've got nothing better to say.

[Kairu Hakubi]

It's a Z sound, and Fyxe needs to chill out

[Fyxe]

It's a Z sound

It's nawt though, say it. 'Realization' is a Z sound, 'realise' is an S sound. There's a noticable difference, unless you have an odd accent.

THUS I WIN. American English looses once again.

Or something.

And I'm very chilled, you're the ones who seem to think I'm somehow on edge all the time. o.o Assumptions, boy, assumptions.

[BourgeoisJerry]

Did you even read the links in my last post?

Main Entry: re·al·i·sa·tion, re·al·ise
chiefly British variant of REALIZATION, REALIZE

In America the correct spelling is realize, just like color is spelled without a U, and check isn't spelled with a que at the end. And by the way...

Main Entry: re·al·ize
Pronunciation: 'rE-&-"lIz

Realize is pronounced with a Z sound in America. It's not an accent thing, it's a dialect thing.

Edited by BourgeoisJerry, 07 April 2007 - 04:55 PM.

[Fyxe]

I know it's the official American spelling, but listen to the two words 'realise' and 'realisation' on that link you gave me. 'Realise' is clearly an S sound.

I'm an English student. I enjoy picking apart Americanisations for their innaccuracies. I do it to be annoying. I know very well that some of them are more sensible (although a lot of them aren't... You don't pronounce 'herbs' right, for example, and the way you say 'buoy' is just hilarious. And it's the Tower of Babel, not Babble).

[Chaltab]

(BTW, not to go further off topic, but if you place Oracles before ALttP, why do you feel the need to state the Master Sword in them as not canon? Just curious)

The Master Sword in ALTTP had supposedly been in the Sacred Grove for years and years. It wouldn't make much sense for Link to have had it in Labrynna and Holodrum just a couple years earlier and then it suddenly be in the Lost Woods. The fact that you have to jump from game to game to get the Master Sword makes it's existence logically incoherent from a storyline standpoint as well, so I figure nothing is lost by having the Noble Sword be the weapon that killed Ganon in those games.

Oh I do realize that, but if this is what Nintendo meant to convey, then that line in the cutscene has been worded rather awkwardly since it first calls them interlopers and only in the successive sentence mentions the Sacred Realm.
But we've debated this already, and know each other's position on this. Let's hear Chaltab's thoughts now

It sounds to me like they were Interlopers before they ever entered the Sacred Realm, but it's definitely subjective. I'm not opposed to them perhaps being from the same tribe as Majora, maybe even from Termina, and now that I think about it, the transformed version of Midna did look a bit like a gargantuan version of Majora's Wrath.

Of course it's also possible that they were 'Interlopers' entirely because of the Sacred Realm thing, and Lanaryu was just refering to them by the name they came to be called.

[Duke Serkol]

You like the idea? Cool
But if we want to stay open to the alternative (that they were Interlopers in the Sacred Realm and not Hyrule) then perhaps we should consider also alternative explanations for Ganondorf being unhindered later on (though I can't really think of any sensible ones myself).

And it's the Tower of Babel, not Babble

But it sorta makes sense since once everybody begun to speak different languages they probably also babbled a lot!

[Chaltab]

Like I said before, if they weren't Interlopers from Termina, then my theory is that the creation of the Master Sword has something to do with it. Once the Master Sword was forged and the Legendary Hero began appearing, ther was no need for the goddesses to interfere directly.

Alternatively, it may have something to do with the fact that the Interlopers were an entire society with advanced magic, while Ganondorf was just one man with limited magic powers.