121 replies to this topic

[Duke Serkol]

I think if they intended to have this as a different thing rather than having the ToC then I don't think that they would have mentioned the old hero having it. Why try to make a connection with OoT/MM's hero if it's something that he never even had? All the things that are intended as connections with OoT are basically ruined for this, all because you want TP to lead right into ALttP(which doesn't work anyway)

Actually I put FSA between them. But that's not the point, the main reason I believe they don't have the Triforce is because they aren't shown getting Ganon's after he's dead (the castle doesn't really count in my opinion, because other places like kakariko continue to be screwed. So my money is on the Light Spirits doing that).

But that's what I'm saying, they did keep him close to Zant. They brought him from the outskirts of Ordon all the way to the castle. And they had him chained up, too.

Dunno, his allocation to me it seemed more like "Okay let's dump this beast here, we can check it out later, it's not all that important."

Or, just as likely, because now they know he has the ToC. It's just that there is very little that needs to be explained if it's the actual Triforce.

I don't mean to be offensive, but do you realize how many lines in the games you're bending so that "there is very little to be explained"? The Light Spirit says the enemy is -now- actively hunting Link, meaning that previously they were not.

It's not that I'm retconning it out of my personal continuity, it's that I believe that the creators retconned it out.

Ah, I see.

According to you, Ganondorf was dying and was then given the ToP/power of ToP right before he died, for no reason.

For no KNOWN reason. That's different than for no reason at all.

The sages weren't be careless at all, because if he hadn't been randomly given the Triforce they would have ended the threat of Ganondorf. However, if you go by my theory, in which he already had the Triforce, they basically got cocky and thought they could take out the bearer of the Triforce of Power. That's not a perfect explanation, but you get what I mean.

I think I do, yes. It's a good argumentation. To me, theirs sounded more like an admission of having stepped out of line, but this could work just as well.

But we don't know that it's the only Triforce, and TML and I have mentioned why they would show that anyway. You're focusing too much on that aspect of it, because the ToC being there is far more important.

But it's really a whole bunch of things, all conspiring to indicate that this is their first encounter all over again.

Zelda's "spying doesn't even appear to be in the same way as before. She's smiling, and only seems worried when Link actually appears.

She smiles? Never noticed that. Will have to see it again.

Plus, in a debate like this, you have to look at everything. I believe MM, TWW and TP imply/confirm what happened in the end of OoT.

Same here, but interestingly those confirmed happenings are different for the two of us.

I'd also like to hear your explanation as to why Link is known as a hero in the child timeline if he did absolutely nothing that anyone would know about.

The manual of MM says that his role as a hero is remembered by the Royal Family. Evidently word got out. Besides that, if as I believe Link came beck to before helping out the Gorons and Zoras with their problems (Dodongos and Jabu Jabus) I assume he'd lend a hand again.

First of all, the King Bulblin wasn't there when they clubbed him. Secondly, what would you suggest is the reason for the game switching to the KB's perspective and taking care to never show Link at that time?

Okay so King Bullblin is blind and his henchemen brainless? They ALL came and took away people, if they wanted everybody they wouldn't have missed Link since they whacked him.

I've told you why I don't think that the gods would do this. Even if Ganondorf had just as much right as anyone else, that doesn't mean they would choose him of all people to have it. He's a bad man.

Well, you tell that to the Sages since apparently they are baffled

Yeah, I don't know. I gotta say, some kinda artbook would be good for TP.

You thinking of the sort of thing Capcom does for their own series? Yeah, that would help.
...or maybe not, since in Capcom's case it's not much use when they keep re-releasing their games and retconning the hell out of them

Well, I don't think the light force is the Triforce. I think it more has to do with the special powers the Hylians have been given.

It's better if we don't get into that, but in either case, there are Triforce symbols all over the place in TMC (usually with an eagle under it, i.e. the new Hylian symbol) but just as in TP when it shows up in all its glory during the Lanayru vision the name never comes up.

Nope, for like a split second it's purplish but for the rest of the time(such as when it's actually formed) it's a similar color to the magic used later.

Yeah, I think so. Maybe Ganon got better and doesn't need to "purply charge up"?

I think that allowing evil to exist and giving evil the power that allows it to take over the world is another thing entirely.

That depends. If Ganondorf's rights had been denied (life is usually considered a God given right) by representatives of the Gods (the Sages) the Gods themselves could have stepped in to balance the scales (and then did so again giving Link and Zelda the chance to stop him).

So there are just as many, if not more, visual clues that say that it isn't during their first meeting.

Let's count them then.
After their first meeting: Door of Time open, Zelda smiling (?)
Before their first meeting: Only Link has a Triforce mark, Zelda is spying through the window, Link has no Goron Bracelet, Zelda is later shown to have the Ocarina.
Anything else?

[FDL]

[quote name=

[FDL]

Actually I put FSA between them. But that's not the point, the main reason I believe they don't have the Triforce is because they aren't shown getting Ganon's after he's dead (the castle doesn't really count in my opinion, because other places like kakariko continue to be screwed. So my money is on the Light Spirits doing that).

Again, I don't think that the ending really works as "proof" to be honest. The ending is pretty vague, and it was meant to focus on the Twilight Mirror. I mean, I've even seen some people theorize that Zant stole the ToP from him. Anyway, I really can't see how FSA could come in between the two games, and it appears to be desperation to me when people suggest it. But you may have better reasons.

Dunno, his allocation to me it seemed more like "Okay let's dump this beast here, we can check it out later, it's not all that important."

Eh, I still disagree.

I don't mean to be offensive, but do you realize how many lines in the games you're bending so that "there is very little to be explained"? The Light Spirit says the enemy is -now- actively hunting Link, meaning that previously they were not.

How is this bending them to fit what I'm saying anymore than anyone does? I could say that you're trying to pass the whole Triforce situation with the interlopers, Ganondorf, and the sages off as gospel is bending words, too. If they're -now- hunting him because before that they didn't know he was the one who had the Triforce, how is that really any different? I mean, if Eldin had said "They're now hunting you because you've been thwarting their plans" I could see why you'd think I was crazy. But he doesn't say why, it could be for either reason. I mean, after they find Link everything aside from the general monsters and darkness surrounding the land appears to be aimed at Link. Even Colin being rekidnapped appears as though it may be because of Link. The way he taunts Link and waits out in the field for him and everything.

For no KNOWN reason. That's different than for no reason at all.

Exactly. We aren't told why he'd be chosen, even by the end of the game. I doubt they'd introduce it for it to go absolutely nowhere, especially considering they tried to bring everything together by the end of TP(Fused Shadows, Triforce pieces, Light Spirits, and the Mirror all play a part in the conclusion).

I think I do, yes. It's a good argumentation. To me, theirs sounded more like an admission of having stepped out of line, but this could work just as well.

But I don't see how they stepped out of line at all.

But it's really a whole bunch of things, all conspiring to indicate that this is their first encounter all over again.

Not really. Again, the ToC being there holds far, far more weight than the ToW possibly not being there. Ditto for not seing Ganondorf in the window. And you could say Ganondorf didn't step up until Link showed up but then I could say that Link was closer to Zelda when they first met, so whatever.

She smiles? Never noticed that. Will have to see it again.

She appears to be. I'm not sure though.

The manual of MM says that his role as a hero is remembered by the Royal Family. Evidently word got out. Besides that, if as I believe Link came beck to before helping out the Gorons and Zoras with their problems (Dodongos and Jabu Jabus) I assume he'd lend a hand again.

MM says that throughout the land of Hyrule there "echos a legend". And Kaepora Gaebora mentions in OoT that tales are being told of a boy who can travel through time. It's only said that the Royal Family "holds it dearly".

Okay so King Bullblin is blind and his henchemen brainless? They ALL came and took away people, if they wanted everybody they wouldn't have missed Link since they whacked him.

I didn't make the game, I'm just telling you what I saw.

You thinking of the sort of thing Capcom does for their own series? Yeah, that would help.
...or maybe not, since in Capcom's case it's not much use when they keep re-releasing their games and retconning the hell out of them

Something like that. Or the Zelda Box. Anything you be better than if they just allow us to continue not knowing what they intended with many scenes.

It's better if we don't get into that, but in either case, there are Triforce symbols all over the place in TMC (usually with an eagle under it, i.e. the new Hylian symbol) but just as in TP when it shows up in all its glory during the Lanayru vision the name never comes up.

As I've mentioned in other topics before, I think TP is deliberately vague.

Yeah, I think so. Maybe Ganon got better and doesn't need to "purply charge up"?

I think it's just so it looks cool in the cutscene.

That depends. If Ganondorf's rights had been denied (life is usually considered a God given right) by representatives of the Gods (the Sages) the Gods themselves could have stepped in to balance the scales (and then did so again giving Link and Zelda the chance to stop him).

That's so redundant though. Why give Ganondorf those "reparations" if they just planned on choosing someone else to kill him? It just seems like [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of something for nothing.

Let's count them then.
After their first meeting: Door of Time open, Zelda smiling (?)
Before their first meeting: Only Link has a Triforce mark, Zelda is spying through the window, Link has no Goron Bracelet, Zelda is later shown to have the Ocarina.
Anything else?

The fact that you believe that our not seeing the ToW on Zelda's hand(mainly because of the angles, we don't even know if it's not there) is more important than Link having the Triforce truly baffles me. And, again, if it's the one from the future than there would also be two Link's running around. You can't have one thing and not the other, I think. As for the Ocarina, I'd say that could be because he gave Zelda the Ocarina in the future. That's how I had always thought of it, anyway. So, yeah, you're "proof" is debateable.

[Duke Serkol]

I really can't see how FSA could come in between the two games, and it appears to be desperation to me when people suggest it. But you may have better reasons.

Plenty, but let's not cause this monster debate to grow any bigger or it may achieve sentience and kill us all. Suffice to say Ganon dies in both TWW and TP, and the only game other than OoT in which he was born anew is FSA.

How is this bending them to fit what I'm saying anymore than anyone does? I could say that you're trying to pass the whole Triforce situation with the interlopers, Ganondorf, and the sages off as gospel is bending words, too.

So favoring a more direct interpretation of text is wrong? But anyway, I never proclaimed those things facts (or sung it as gospel, if you will), it is just an interpretation.

If they're -now- hunting him because before that they didn't know he was the one who had the Triforce, how is that really any different?

The thing is, this is Eldin saying it, not Faron. Link got captured (and his Triforce mark shone in the face of his captor) long before getting to Eldin. But Faron doesn't say anything like that, meaning Link doesn't actually attract the attention of the "darkness" (to use Eldin's words) until after lifting Twilight from Faron.

Exactly. We aren't told why he'd be chosen, even by the end of the game.

I said it before: Gods are mysterious. The sages are puzzled, why would we not be?

MM says that throughout the land of Hyrule there "echos a legend".

All the better then.

Something like that. Or the Zelda Box. Anything you be better than if they just allow us to continue not knowing what they intended with many scenes.

Though some may argue that it would take out the fun of doing what we do. And actually, at this point, I'm satisfied enough with the hints and answers we have that I don't feel the need for more. Not as much as before TP came out, at least.

That's so redundant though. Why give Ganondorf those "reparations" if they just planned on choosing someone else to kill him?

That again, comes down to the right of self determination. Ganondorf could decide to use his power to just save his life and then stop doing evil. Granted, the Gods knew he would not, but that doesn't change anything. If it did make a difference, then they would have prevented evil to exist entirely. But that would be taking away self determination, take away the very fundamental of freedom.

The fact that you believe that our not seeing the ToW on Zelda's hand(mainly because of the angles, we don't even know if it's not there) is more important than Link having the Triforce truly baffles me.

I don't. I think both facts (facts, the mark is definitely not there) are equally important. And I conclude Link had the Triforce like he did in the future, while Zelda did not. Therefore, Link took the Triforce with him back into the past. And then, in MM he loses it and it returns where it came from. No problems.

And, again, if it's the one from the future than there would also be two Link's running around. You can't have one thing and not the other, I think.

Yes, that IS a good point. Supposedly Link would have been on his way from Kokiri Forest to the Castle. I think that's what Zelda's gift to Link is: she changed the past so that Link wouldn't get involved with her plan to get the Triforce before Ganondorf (right before sending him back, she expresses her regret for that, saying it was her fault for all that happened to Hyrule) and in doing this created a new timeline.

As for the Ocarina, I'd say that could be because he gave Zelda the Ocarina in the future. That's how I had always thought of it, anyway.

And that is not paradoxical? I mean, Zelda despite clasping the Ocarina sent it back with Link but so that it would go to her past self?

So, yeah, you're "proof" is debateable.

Everything is debatable. If humanity has demonstrated anything is that there is no such thing as irrefutable proof. Scientists find out the planet is older than what the bible says? People will either deny the facts or assume God created it to appear older than it is.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 31 March 2007 - 04:43 PM.

[FDL]

Plenty, but let's not cause this monster debate to grow any bigger or it may achieve sentience and kill us all. Suffice to say Ganon dies in both TWW and TP, and the only game other than OoT in which he was born anew is FSA.

Yeah, we don't need to get into this all that much, but that's exactly why I think that FSA must be after TP. He dies in TP, and he's known to be the OoT Ganondorf, but in FSA he has a different, separate backstory.

So favoring a more direct interpretation of text is wrong? But anyway, I never proclaimed those things facts (or sung it as gospel, if you will), it is just an interpretation.
The thing is, this is Eldin saying it, not Faron. Link got captured (and his Triforce mark shone in the face of his captor) long before getting to Eldin. But Faron doesn't say anything like that, meaning Link doesn't actually attract the attention of the "darkness" (to use Eldin's words) until after lifting Twilight from Faron.

That's an interesting point, though I'm not sure it means anything. Lanayru is the one who warns Link about the Fused Shadows, but it was relvant before he met Lanayru. So I'm not sure about you're reasoning, though it's good.

I said it before: Gods are mysterious. The sages are puzzled, why would we not be?

There's still no reason for it to happen, and it makes very little sense.

All the better then.

How so? If the people already know of him as a hero so shortly after, then Zelda isn't the only one who knows about him. Plus, don't Skull Kid and the Happy MAsk Man appear to recognize his position as a hero?

Though some may argue that it would take out the fun of doing what we do. And actually, at this point, I'm satisfied enough with the hints and answers we have that I don't feel the need for more. Not as much as before TP came out, at least.

Well, what I'm saying is, it's getting less fun and more annoying now that the game has been out for a while. Because, as this debate has shown, everyone is set in their own ways and probably won't change their minds. So now I'd liek to knwo who's right and who's wrong(though I doubt anyone's theory is fully correct).

That again, comes down to the right of self determination. Ganondorf could decide to use his power to just save his life and then stop doing evil. Granted, the Gods knew he would not, but that doesn't change anything. If it did make a difference, then they would have prevented evil to exist entirely. But that would be taking away self determination, take away the very fundamental of freedom.

But he'd already been doing evil. And, in your theory, the Triforce of Courage is from the adult timeline. If the Triforce can cross through the two parallel times(though I, personally, don't think that's the case) then so to can the gods. They know what Ganondorf did in the adult timeline, if that's the case, and thus they wouldn't allow it to happen. Plus, having checked ALttP material again, it is said that the SR is "beyond the reach of men". If it is meant to be taken, why would they put it in there?

I don't. I think both facts (facts, the mark is definitely not there) are equally important. And I conclude Link had the Triforce like he did in the future, while Zelda did not. Therefore, Link took the Triforce with him back into the past. And then, in MM he loses it and it returns where it came from. No problems.

Yes, there is. It's insanely paradoxical, and the fact that it's just so the Triforce can be in the SR for ALttP pisses me off too. That has never mattered before, and should not matter all of a sudden. And could you give me a screenshot that proves it's not there? Because I'm not sure that you can say that when her hand is obscured the entire time.

Yes, that IS a good point. Supposedly Link would have been on his way from Kokiri Forest to the Castle. I think that's what Zelda's gift to Link is: she changed the past so that Link wouldn't get involved with her plan to get the Triforce before Ganondorf (right before sending him back, she expresses her regret for that, saying it was her fault for all that happened to Hyrule) and in doing this created a new timeline.

Well apparently it was not created until Link met Zelda again. Plus, I'd think that she would have told him to warn Zelda or something would be done to even give us a hint that that was the case.

And that is not paradoxical? I mean, Zelda despite clasping the Ocarina sent it back with Link but so that it would go to her past self?

Eh, true. But, again, it's less paradoxical than the ToC being in two places at once for a while, the Door of Time being open inexplicably when it should not be open, and Link and Navi being around in two places at once. I just don't see the point of all these wierd things going on when they're not needed, and I don't believe that the developers intended such a convoluted story at all. It's NINTENDO, for cripesakes.

[Duke Serkol]

that's exactly why I think that FSA must be after TP.

You agree? I thought you said it was a desperate solution (in your own words "I really can't see how FSA could come in between the two games, and it appears to be desperation to me when people suggest it.")

How so? If the people already know of him as a hero so shortly after, then Zelda isn't the only one who knows about him. Plus, don't Skull Kid and the Happy MAsk Man appear to recognize his position as a hero?

The manual said that what Link did became a legend. Legends are normally not remembered first hand by people, but told about (and in this case, I suppose, it would be Zelda who'd let the legend be known). At any rate, we know that Link's deeds in OoT become legendary even back in the past, so unless we go for one of those old freaky "everybody still have their memories from the future" things (which I don't), somehow word must have spread.
As for Skull Kid and the Mask Salesman, the first may or may not be the one to whom Link gave the skull mask (you know, in the ending he says Link smells like the kid that thought him "that song", but in OoT when you play Saria's song to the Skull Kids, they go "you know Saria's song! Then you must be a friend" or something like that. I wonder if either line got changed in translation).
The latter is a mystery. Even in the manga Link is shocked that the Mask Salesman seems to know what he did (not trying to pass the manga as canon, mind you, just saying that he seems intended as a puzzling character). And that's just the tip of the iceberg (I mean, is the salesman from Hyrule or Termina? Where does he disappear to in the ending? Very mysterious)

But he'd already been doing evil.
...
the gods. They know what Ganondorf did in the adult timeline, if that's the case, and thus they wouldn't allow it to happen.

That is true, no doubt. But maybe it was not the Sages' role to judge and execute him. In several occasions we've seen the Sages derive their powers from the Gods (when they made the seal in OoT and when they pray to empower the Master Sword). If Ganondorf did not have the power of the Gods (as I believe) he would have had no chance.
If the Gods wanted that, to have Ganondorf killed by something he had no chance against, they could have had him hit by a thunder... repeatedly if necessary
Going by your reasoning, that the Gods wouldn't let that happen, it would have made more sense if Ganondorf wasn't born at all. Because they are Gods, they know everything, if the Triforce is omiscient (according to ALttP) and the Master Sword can be used to time travel, then the creators of both certainly know of all things to come. But fact is, Ganondorf like Hitler has been allowed to live and do everything he's done. All in accord to the right of self determination.

Plus, having checked ALttP material again, it is said that the SR is "beyond the reach of men". If it is meant to be taken, why would they put it in there?

Because of Zelda Legends' condition, I don't have the Japanese manaul translation handy, but as far as I remember, it also says the Triforce stood there waiting for someone to claim it (shortly after detailing the titles it would bestow on those who'd obtain each part).

Yes, there is. It's insanely paradoxical, and the fact that it's just so the Triforce can be in the SR for ALttP pisses me off too.

That's great: clearly I devised this theory specifically to that end
Seriously though, you are completely mistaken. My basis for outlining this theory is not and has never been ALttP.
That and it is no more paradoxical and convenient than Zelda separately sending the Ocarina back to her past self.

Well apparently it was not created until Link met Zelda again. Plus, I'd think that she would have told him to warn Zelda

I believe what Aonuma meant is that the two timelines took different direction (i.e. events begun to change) as of consequence of Link meeting Zelda again (and telling her not to try beat Ganondorf to getting the Triforce, may I add, since Adult Zelda did express her regret to having gotten Link involved in that)

Eh, true. But, again, it's less paradoxical than the ToC being in two places at once for a while, the Door of Time being open inexplicably when it should not be open, and Link and Navi being around in two places at once. I just don't see the point of all these wierd things going on when they're not needed

Look, I agree that it's not the prettiest way for things to turn out, and if I had been the one making OoT, I would have made it so that there were as little oddities and paradoxes as possible. However, we are on the receiving end of things, and what I'm trying to do here, is figure out why everything in the ending is the way it is. As I listed before, we've got Link and only Link with a Triforce mark, no Goron bracelet and Zelda spying through the window still having her Ocarina. What other conclusion am I to draw than that the authors intendind for this to be their first meeting all over again?
Should I ignore that all of these things point to the same conclusion and bend each of them to other means? Assume that Zelda is spying through the window and does not have a Triforce mark as Link because it is "artistically" more appropriate? That they forgot the Goron bracelet (even though the way the game works they would have had to go out of their way to code it so that it wouldn't show, since the game always displays all items you last equipped, like the Hylian or Deku Shield)? That the Ocarina Link left in the future was returned to Zelda in an off screen sequence? No, I think I'll stick with my interpretation. It's not any more paradoxical than all the other time traveling stuff going on, and it doesn't ignore/bend any of the facts presented by the games.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 01 April 2007 - 09:52 AM.

[FDL]

You agree? I thought you said it was a desperate solution (in your own words "I really can't see how FSA could come in between the two games, and it appears to be desperation to me when people suggest it.")

Oh crap. I thought you meant that FSA comes in between OoT and TP, as Evilsbane and SOAP believe. Sorry

The manual said that what Link did became a legend. Legends are normally not remembered first hand by people, but told about (and in this case, I suppose, it would be Zelda who'd let the legend be known). At any rate, we know that Link's deeds in OoT become legendary even back in the past, so unless we go for one of those old freaky "everybody still have their memories from the future" things (which I don't), somehow word must have spread.
As for Skull Kid and the Mask Salesman, the first may or may not be the one to whom Link gave the skull mask (you know, in the ending he says Link smells like the kid that thought him "that song", but in OoT when you play Saria's song to the Skull Kids, they go "you know Saria's song! Then you must be a friend" or something like that. I wonder if either line got changed in translation).
The latter is a mystery. Even in the manga Link is shocked that the Mask Salesman seems to know what he did (not trying to pass the manga as canon, mind you, just saying that he seems intended as a puzzling character). And that's just the tip of the iceberg (I mean, is the salesman from Hyrule or Termina? Where does he disappear to in the ending? Very mysterious)

But usually legends take time to become them, don't they? When everyone knows what he did already(according to KG), how is it only a legend(which Kaepora Gaebora specifically says it isn't)? Here's the quote again: "A long time in this world is almost nothing to you, is it? How mysterious! Even I thought that the tales of a boy who could travel back and forth through time was merely a legend. Link, you have fully matured as an adult. From now on, the future of all the people in Hyrule is on your shoulders." That's something, I think.

Anyway, I'm not talking about the Skull Kid mentioning Saria's Song, I'm talking about what he says when he first sees Link. "This guy...well, that shouldn't be a problem". But I agree that the Happy Mask Man may know about Link because of his strange powers. I never let the Moon fall, but doesn't he save Link if it does?

That is true, no doubt. But maybe it was not the Sages' role to judge and execute him. In several occasions we've seen the Sages derive their powers from the Gods (when they made the seal in OoT and when they pray to empower the Master Sword). If Ganondorf did not have the power of the Gods (as I believe) he would have had no chance.

Well, it's possible, but I still don't get that from the game/s. I juts can't see the gods being against Ganondorf's execution, at least enough against it to give him the Triforce of Power. I still don't, to use HoL's words, believe he got a "free ride" either. He had to earn the Triforce choosing him, which he did.

If the Gods wanted that, to have Ganondorf killed by something he had no chance against, they could have had him hit by a thunder... repeatedly if necessary
Going by your reasoning, that the Gods wouldn't let that happen, it would have made more sense if Ganondorf wasn't born at all. Because they are Gods, they know everything, if the Triforce is omiscient (according to ALttP) and the Master Sword can be used to time travel, then the creators of both certainly know of all things to come. But fact is, Ganondorf like Hitler has been allowed to live and do everything he's done. All in accord to the right of self determination.

Everyone has a capacity for evil, and power corrupts, that's one theme of the game(Twilight Princess). But that does not mean that the would randomly give Ganondorf the Triforce just because his evil had led to his capture by a gropu of righteous beings. Ganondorf is known to be evil, and allowing evil to exist is quite different than giving it power. That's my point. You say that you believe that they only stopped the Twili because they were of another world(which may not be true) and yet you honestly believe that the gods care so much about every little detail of Hyrule that they would do something this outrageous? It doesn't work that way. One person who had been wreaking havoc throughout the land being executed for said crimes is not something that matters enough for the gods to stop it at the last second. It just isn't. I mean, if the gods meddle with every little thing that happens in the world, then why did they allow Ganondorf to kill the Composer Brothers or the Deku Tree?

Because of Zelda Legends' condition, I don't have the Japanese manaul translation handy, but as far as I remember, it also says the Triforce stood there waiting for someone to claim it (shortly after detailing the titles it would bestow on those who'd obtain each part).

That's possible, I guess. But it still doesn't discredit what I say. In fact, it makes it stronger in some ways. Ganondorf believes he is chosen because he ended up being the Emperor of Power or whatever the title is. But that doesn't mean he got the Triforce for no reason.

That's great: clearly I devised this theory specifically to that end
Seriously though, you are completely mistaken. My basis for outlining this theory is not and has never been ALttP.

Okay, I was wrong then.

That and it is no more paradoxical and convenient than Zelda separately sending the Ocarina back to her past self.
I believe what Aonuma meant is that the two timelines took different direction (i.e. events begun to change) as of consequence of Link meeting Zelda again (and telling her not to try beat Ganondorf to getting the Triforce, may I add, since Adult Zelda did express her regret to having gotten Link involved in that)

No, the way I said it was kind of incorrect, but it is possible in what I mean. Link gave Zelda the Ocarina of Time in the adult timeline, correct? So he no longer has it. But until Link "closed the path between times" everything he owned existed with him in both times. But now that the path between times is permanently closed, and the Ocarina no longer with Link, it has to go back to Zelda so there isn't a paraodx in which there isn't an Ocarina when history up to that point said there was.

Look, I agree that it's not the prettiest way for things to turn out, and if I had been the one making OoT, I would have made it so that there were as little oddities and paradoxes as possible. However, we are on the receiving end of things, and what I'm trying to do here, is figure out why everything in the ending is the way it is. As I listed before, we've got Link and only Link with a Triforce mark, no Goron bracelet and Zelda spying through the window still having her Ocarina. What other conclusion am I to draw than that the authors intendind for this to be their first meeting all over again?

I've addressed the Triforce mark and Ocarina already, with more than one explanation that makes sense no less, so I won't address it again. The Goron Bracelet is a decent point I guess, though the Door of Time being open and the Hylian Shield make it null if you ask me, but the part with Zelda spying honestly means aboslutely nothing. It is never once said that Zelda is only spying because of Ganondorf, and the impression I got from the fact that her playground has a window to the throne room is that she merely enjoys watching everything that goes on.

Should I ignore that all of these things point to the same conclusion and bend each of them to other means? Assume that Zelda is spying through the window and does not have a Triforce mark as Link because it is "artistically" more appropriate? That they forgot the Goron bracelet (even though the way the game works they would have had to go out of their way to code it so that it wouldn't show, since the game always displays all items you last equipped, like the Hylian or Deku Shield)? That the Ocarina Link left in the future was returned to Zelda in an off screen sequence? No, I think I'll stick with my interpretation. It's not any more paradoxical than all the other time traveling stuff going on, and it doesn't ignore/bend any of the facts presented by the games.

You don't know that she doesn't have the Triforce mark, and I've yet to see proof otherwise. It IS artistically more appropriate, and once again you're not looking at the ending from the perspective you should be, the right one, A.K.A. the way it was intended when it was first released. When it was first released, TWW was not even on the horizon, and may not have even been an idea in any of the developers minds. Showing the ToC was meant to be a small hint that we were not seeing the same scene over again, and we were in fact seeing a different one. They were not thinking about it being the one from the adult timeline, because the door between times was closed. That was not the developers intent, and probably never was. Each subsequent game appears to cement this. I'll reiterate:

Link having the ToC visible on his hand>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Zelda possibly not in importance. They did not plan on making TWW at that time, and so there is no reason why it would be the Triforce from the AT. That's the problem, you're not looking at what appears to have been intended here. Even if it works(messily), it's doubtful that it was the intention of the game developers.

[Duke Serkol]

Oh crap. I thought you meant that FSA comes in between OoT and TP, as Evilsbane and SOAP believe. Sorry

Ah I see, no problem

But usually legends take time to become them, don't they?

MM's manual said it, not me

Anyway, I'm not talking about the Skull Kid mentioning Saria's Song, I'm talking about what he says when he first sees Link. "This guy...well, that shouldn't be a problem". But I agree that the Happy Mask Man may know about Link because of his strange powers. I never let the Moon fall, but doesn't he save Link if it does?

I always intended that as in "This is that guy who was nice to me and taught me that song... well, who cares."
I honestl don't remember, but I don't think he did. That would be interesting, though.

Well, it's possible, but I still don't get that from the game/s. I juts can't see the gods being against Ganondorf's execution, at least enough against it to give him the Triforce of Power. I still don't, to use HoL's words, believe he got a "free ride" either. He had to earn the Triforce choosing him, which he did.

Okay. It's also a possibility of course, but me, the fact that the Sages' story goes from Ganondorf trying to get into the Sacred Realm to him being imprisoned seems to imply he did not. And I guess these are our bottom lines for this part of the debate

because his evil had led to his capture by a gropu of righteous beings.

It's not much the capture I think as much as the sentencing. But we've been over that.

Ganondorf is known to be evil, and allowing evil to exist is quite different than giving it power.

Is it all that different? He could have been born with a handicap that would prevent him to do evil like complete inability to use magic... or to go for something less outworldly, he could have been born with a mental handicap that would have made him unable to formulate complex evil thoughts. On the contrary, he was given a strong and healthy body and a cunning mind.

you honestly believe that the gods care so much about every little detail of Hyrule that they would do something this outrageous? It doesn't work that way.

Well, again you should tell the Sages, because they seem to think it was a divine prank.

if the gods meddle with every little thing that happens in the world, then why did they allow Ganondorf to kill the Composer Brothers or the Deku Tree?

The difference would be the Sages and their powers. Powers that seem to come from the Gods. It's not a violation of self determination as long as Godly powers aren't used outside of balance.
For the records though, know that I'm not trying to pass this theory as a clear and certain interpretation of the events in TP. Like I said, I'm more than happy to leave it at "divine prank".

That's possible, I guess. But it still doesn't discredit what I say. In fact, it makes it stronger in some ways. Ganondorf believes he is chosen because he ended up being the Emperor of Power or whatever the title is. But that doesn't mean he got the Triforce for no reason.

We were debating whether everybody in Hyrule has an equal right to trying to claim the Triforce or not.

But until Link "closed the path between times" everything he owned existed with him in both times.

That's an interesting question actually... if Link gives away something he was given in the past while he is in the future, does he lose it in the past? I don't believe there are any in-game instances of that, are there?

But now that the path between times is permanently closed, and the Ocarina no longer with Link, it has to go back to Zelda so there isn't a paraodx in which there isn't an Ocarina when history up to that point said there was.

Wait... in all of this, when do you assume Link came back? (Before first meeting Zelda? After the last time he drew the Master Sword?)

The Goron Bracelet is a decent point I guess, though the Door of Time being open and the Hylian Shield make it null if you ask me

The Hylian Shield only strenghtens that point.

You don't know that she doesn't have the Triforce mark

Whatever.

you're not looking at the ending from the perspective you should be, the right one, A.K.A. the way it was intended when it was first released.

I am (with a little MM thrown in). You just don't intend it the same way as I do.

They were not thinking about it being the one from the adult timeline, because the door between times was closed. That was not the developers intent, and probably never was.

I like your insight. Got a hidden webcam in the development room?

Link having the ToC visible on his hand>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Zelda possibly not in importance.

The Master Sword Sleeps Forever>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The Master Sword being in Oracles.
Stating priorities based solely on what we like is fun!

Edited by Duke Serkol, 01 April 2007 - 01:00 PM.

[FDL]

MM's manual said it, not me

And what of the Kaepora Gaebora thing I mentioned?

I always intended that as in "This is that guy who was nice to me and taught me that song... well, who cares."

It's possible, but the way he says it seems weird to me is all.

Okay. It's also a possibility of course, but me, the fact that the Sages' story goes from Ganondorf trying to get into the Sacred Realm to him being imprisoned seems to imply he did not. And I guess these are our bottom lines for this part of the debate

They never say he did fail, though I see your point. Anyway, they way they phrase it, though it kills me to say this because it puts the nail in the coffin of these sages being related to OoT's, makes me think it's possible that Ganondorf already had the Triforce but they didn't know until that time, similar to how Link didn't know that Ganondorf had only the ToP until the end of OoT.

Is it all that different? He could have been born with a handicap that would prevent him to do evil like complete inability to use magic... or to go for something less outworldly, he could have been born with a mental handicap that would have made him unable to formulate complex evil thoughts. On the contrary, he was given a strong and healthy body and a cunning mind.

Well that's kind of my point, though. While they step in and stop the Twili and Ganon in TWW, they do not micromanage Hyrule. Until there's a possibilty of Hyrule being destroyed, they don't step in. And that goes in reverse as well, they don't give people the Triforce.

We were debating whether everybody in Hyrule has an equal right to trying to claim the Triforce or not.

Oh, okay. I'll try to clarify what I've been saying. It's quite possible that they gave people equal rights to claim the Triforce, but that doesn't mean that they want people to have it, as they apparently want everyone to have equal power and rights. That may even be why that stopped the Twili, the Twili were showing off that they had more power than the rest of the light worlders(which would explain why the tribes magic was sealed away). But even if they want everyone to have a shot at the Triforce they wouldn't give Ganondorf the Triforce. That's not equal rights, that's basically favoritism.

That's an interesting question actually... if Link gives away something he was given in the past while he is in the future, does he lose it in the past? I don't believe there are any in-game instances of that, are there?

Well, when you use something like bombs or rupees in the adult time, you lose it in the child time. Or if you catch a bug in the child time and give it to the beggar in the adult time, you no longer have it in any time.

Wait... in all of this, when do you assume Link came back? (Before first meeting Zelda? After the last time he drew the Master Sword?)

I'm talking about why Zelda would have the Ocarina in the child time if Link came back after drawing the MS. If it's before he first meets Zelda it's irrevlevant because Zelda would have it because she did at that point in time.

I am (with a little MM thrown in). You just don't intend it the same way as I do.

Not in the case of the ToC.

I like your insight. Got a hidden webcam in the development room?

Shhh! Don't blow my cover!

The Master Sword Sleeps Forever>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The Master Sword being in Oracles.
Stating priorities based solely on what we like is fun!

The thing I find funny is, many people say that. But, anyway, I won't get too much into this again at the moment, but Link doesn't have the ToC visible on his hand when he first appears in the ToT. Does this mean he got it after? Probably not. But if you go by the logic that we never see the ToW on Zelda's hand, meaning she doesn't have it, that's what we have to assume. Which opens up a whole new problem in the idea that it's the one from the future, because if it were from the future then he would've already had it.

[Duke Serkol]

And what of the Kaepora Gaebora thing I mentioned?

Wasn't he relating a prophecy? (Like Sheik when he lists the temples you have to clear)

puts the nail in the coffin of these sages being related to OoT's

You think the reason they wear masks is to signify that their original aspect was different (A Zora, a Goron etc.)? I've considered that, I don't think it's likely but it could help explain their looks (though one kinda has to wonder why the Sages in TWW retain their "ethnicity" after death if that is the case).

it's possible that Ganondorf already had the Triforce but they didn't know until that time, similar to how Link didn't know that Ganondorf had only the ToP until the end of OoT.

Yep, could be... though it would be somewhat strange (ironic?) or Ganondorf to wage a war so he could obtain something he already has.

But even if they want everyone to have a shot at the Triforce they wouldn't give Ganondorf the Triforce. That's not equal rights, that's basically favoritism.

They might if someone had used Powers second only to the Triforce to deny him this right.

Well, when you use something like bombs or rupees in the adult time, you lose it in the child time. Or if you catch a bug in the child time and give it to the beggar in the adult time, you no longer have it in any time.

Yeah, but I'm not sure if we can count those since the game could not function otherwise (sort of like how Link loses all those things but no stuff like masks and equipment in MM).
Let's see... masks are only for when Link is a child, and the trading sequence to get the Biggoron Sword... is all as an adult? I'm afraid I'm out of ideas.

I'm talking about why Zelda would have the Ocarina in the child time if Link came back after drawing the MS. If it's before he first meets Zelda it's irrevlevant because Zelda would have it because she did at that point in time.

Uhm... so to avoid paradoxes Link would lose all the hings he found in the future but not what he got in the past? Like the Silver Gaintlets (No, I'm not going anywhere with this, just pondering)

Shhh! Don't blow my cover!

Sure, but only if you get me a video of one of those hilarious moments in which Miyamoto flips the table

Link doesn't have the ToC visible on his hand when he first appears in the ToT. Does this mean he got it after? Probably not. But if you go by the logic that we never see the ToW on Zelda's hand, meaning she doesn't have it, that's what we have to assume. Which opens up a whole new problem in the idea that it's the one from the future, because if it were from the future then he would've already had it.

That is actually a very good point, and I concede that it may cast doubt on the Triforce's situation.
But on a side note, since you reminded me of that: Link doesn't have the Goron Bracelet in that part either

[FDL]

Wasn't he relating a prophecy? (Like Sheik when he lists the temples you have to clear)

I already put up the quote. He never says anything about a prophecy, and he says that "tales" are told but I'm not sure what that entails.

You think the reason they wear masks is to signify that their original aspect was different (A Zora, a Goron etc.)? I've considered that, I don't think it's likely but it could help explain their looks (though one kinda has to wonder why the Sages in TWW retain their "ethnicity" after death if that is the case).

I've considered that as well, but I'm not sure about it. And as I said, it's less likely because they would know that Ganondorf had the Triforce.

Yep, could be... though it would be somewhat strange (ironic?) or Ganondorf to wage a war so he could obtain something he already has.

No, actually, I'm of the opinion that some of his "invasion" involves his attempt to take over Hyrule.

They might if someone had used Powers second only to the Triforce to deny him this right.

I don't think so. If you go by the theory you hold, which is that the war was waged because he did not have the Triforce, then he was asking for trouble. He wasn't like some scholar just trying to find the Triforce, he was doing despicable things to get it.

Yeah, but I'm not sure if we can count those since the game could not function otherwise (sort of like how Link loses all those things but no stuff like masks and equipment in MM).
Let's see... masks are only for when Link is a child, and the trading sequence to get the Biggoron Sword... is all as an adult? I'm afraid I'm out of ideas.

Yeah, well, it's just an idea that I feel is pretty good. I didn't say that there was anything before it that proves it.

Uhm... so to avoid paradoxes Link would lose all the hings he found in the future but not what he got in the past? Like the Silver Gaintlets (No, I'm not going anywhere with this, just pondering)

That's what I'm saying, sorta. I also believe that's why the ToC was not the one from the AT. Nothing paradoxical is allowed to happen. That's actually why there's a split in the first place, because Ganondorf wasn't able to take over Hyrule. Because otherwise, the CT would have ended up exactly the same as the AT.

Sure, but only if you get me a video of one of those hilarious moments in which Miyamoto flips the table

Common misconception. He actually punches a hole in the table. Also, he whips Aonuma and everyone has to call him Lord Miyamoto.

That is actually a very good point, and I concede that it may cast doubt on the Triforce's situation.
But on a side note, since you reminded me of that: Link doesn't have the Goron Bracelet in that part either

That's true. But as long as I've made everyone doubt aspects of their theories, I'm happy. Because when I storm the Nintendo headquarters and force them to explain everything, I need other people as fed up with the unknown aspects of the story as me. Naw, I'm kidding. But, I will concede to you that the Goron Bracelet not being with Link is odd, though I'm not sure about what it would because of what I've brought up about the Triforce.

[Duke Serkol]

I already put up the quote. He never says anything about a prophecy, and he says that "tales" are told but I'm not sure what that entails.

I wasn't asking for the quote again, I meant "Aren't tales of something that is still to happen a prophecy?"

I've considered that as well, but I'm not sure about it. And as I said, it's less likely because they would know that Ganondorf had the Triforce.

Personally, I'm happy that the child timeline doesn't have the OoT Sages. It explains why the descendants in ALttP (and FSA?) are humans.

I don't think so. If you go by the theory you hold, which is that the war was waged because he did not have the Triforce, then he was asking for trouble. He wasn't like some scholar just trying to find the Triforce, he was doing despicable things to get it.

No argument there, I'm just saying that maybe it wasn't the Sages place (with their power derived from the Gods) to judge and execute him.

Yeah, well, it's just an idea that I feel is pretty good. I didn't say that there was anything before it that proves it.

Oh I'm just trying to find an answer to that question for the sake of curiosity

That's what I'm saying, sorta. I also believe that's why the ToC was not the one from the AT. Nothing paradoxical is allowed to happen.

Well, I dunno, paradoxes and time travel stories are like bread and butter...

Common misconception. He actually punches a hole in the table. Also, he whips Aonuma and everyone has to call him Lord Miyamoto.

Ah... that explains a few things.

That's true. But as long as I've made everyone doubt aspects of their theories, I'm happy. Because when I storm the Nintendo headquarters and force them to explain everything, I need other people as fed up with the unknown aspects of the story as me. Naw, I'm kidding. But, I will concede to you that the Goron Bracelet not being with Link is odd, though I'm not sure about what it would because of what I've brought up about the Triforce.

You should have said that earlier: count on meto join the expedition!

[FDL]

I wasn't asking for the quote again, I meant "Aren't tales of something that is still to happen a prophecy?"

No, I don't think so. Tales are usually told of things are currently happening, I thought.

Personally, I'm happy that the child timeline doesn't have the OoT Sages. It explains why the descendants in ALttP (and FSA?) are humans.

Either way, I don't think these specific sages have descendants. I mean, they executed Ganondorf and were still around to tutor Zelda 100 years later.

No argument there, I'm just saying that maybe it wasn't the Sages place (with their power derived from the Gods) to judge and execute him.

Possible, but I don't see that happening. No matter how out of line the sages were, I think that the very last thing the gods would use as punishment would be what you're suggesting. I mean, givng Ganondorf the Triforce puts all of Hyrule in danger. If they hadn't used the mirror all of Hyrule would be potentially destroyed/taken over. The only chance left would have been Link, but it's doubtful that he could stop Ganondorf before he'd done some damage.

Oh I'm just trying to find an answer to that question for the sake of curiosity

Yeah. But I think the stuff I brought up, plus the fact that you can't obtain something in the CT that you already have in the AT makes me believe that time in OoT doesn't allow paradoxes, like two ToCs and no Ocarina in one timeline.

[Duke Serkol]

No, I don't think so. Tales are usually told of things are currently happening, I thought.

Actually I think that usually they would be about things that happened in the past (like, ever seen Monty Pythons "Search for the Holy Grail"? "The Tale of Sir Robin"), but in the end it really is a synonymous of "story".

Either way, I don't think these specific sages have descendants. I mean, they executed Ganondorf and were still around to tutor Zelda 100 years later.

They could have descendants that do not become Sages (there are no actual sages in FSA and ALttP, only "maiden descendants")

The only chance left would have been Link, but it's doubtful that he could stop Ganondorf before he'd done some damage.

But isn't that always the way it is? Anyway, I think we're done.

Yeah. But I think the stuff I brought up, plus the fact that you can't obtain something in the CT that you already have in the AT

When does that happen? (I've thought of the Hylian Shield, that would be one case, but it's not because there exist only one, they just won't sell it to you if you already have one... am I missing some better examples?)

makes me believe that time in OoT doesn't allow paradoxes, like two ToCs and no Ocarina in one timeline.

Well I never suggested that there would be one missing Ocarina, and the dislocation of the Triforce of Courage would be only a temporary thing.

[FDL]

Actually I think that usually they would be about things that happened in the past (like, ever seen Monty Pythons "Search for the Holy Grail"? "The Tale of Sir Robin"), but in the end it really is a synonymous of "story".

Well, I mean in that context. As in a tale doesn't mean a theoretical thing, and the fact that supposedly people are talking about it means something(because it's happening right then).

They could have descendants that do not become Sages (there are no actual sages in FSA and ALttP, only "maiden descendants")

Possibly.

But isn't that always the way it is? Anyway, I think we're done.

I'm not conceding that to you, if that's what you think. Though I'm fine with it if we stop talking about this point.

When does that happen? (I've thought of the Hylian Shield, that would be one case, but it's not because there exist only one, they just won't sell it to you if you already have one... am I missing some better examples?)

Well, there's Farore's Wind and Nayru's Love, though I'm not sure they're physical items or not.

Well I never suggested that there would be one missing Ocarina, and the dislocation of the Triforce of Courage would be only a temporary thing.

The Ocarina thing is what I'm talking about for my theory. As for the ToC, that's the problem. Not only is it paradoxical, but it hinges on Link theoretically leaving. What if Link did not leave Hyrule, if he didn't find Termina? Then the AT ToC would always be in the CT, would it not? That can't work.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 01 April 2007 - 09:16 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

I'm not conceding that to you, if that's what you think.

It's not what I thought. Don't worry.

Well, there's Farore's Wind and Nayru's Love, though I'm not sure they're physical items or not.

Those also don't quite work since the Fairies give them to you and they'd know if you still have need of them or not, I think.

As for the ToC, that's the problem. Not only is it paradoxical, but it hinges on Link theoretically leaving. What if Link did not leave Hyrule, if he didn't find Termina? Then the AT ToC would always be in the CT, would it not? That can't work.

I did think of that myself, but there's something we shouldn't forget: destiny!
If we are to listen to the Deku Tree's words, and he's been around since forever so I would, destiny is a very real thing in Hyrule. Furthermore, Link coming to Termina just in time to save it and with the instrument to give him that time he needs is a little bit too convenient to be just chance isn't it?
Therefore, I believe it was always Link's destiny to end up in Termina when he did and lose the Triforce upon doing so. I didn't mention it until now, since I know it won't change your mind, but since we are on the topic: do you remember what was on the floor in the room where Skull Kid casts his curse frightening the heck out of Link? A Triforce with the triangles upside down and one of the shrunk to be smaller than the others. Somehow, I don't think that's a coincidence

as long as I've made everyone doubt aspects of their theories, I'm happy. Because when I storm the Nintendo headquarters and force them to explain everything, I need other people as fed up with the unknown aspects of the story as me.

Actually you know what I would like to know but honestly can't tell for sure? When the whole deal with the Interlopers happened. Some people believe it to have happened during the "fierce wars", but the vision seems to suggest to me that it all happened a lot earlier, possibly not long after the creation of Hyrule (so to those of us who place MC before OoT that would mean it'd be before both games, including probably MC's backstory with the hero of men).
That and I'd like to know whether Arbiter's Ground was built to hold the Interlopers until their banishment (which I think Midna would have bitched about) or later, which would suggest that as Auru said, the Mirror was placed in it (and supposedly used) for the purpose of banishing other criminals (which however is another thing Midna doesn't whine about... but then they also failed to notice Ganondorf for several decades).

[The Missing Link]

I just thought of a great subline for that AFD about Zelda in the future which used all of that Star Wars fanart:

The Legend of Zelda: Attack of the Quotes.

[FDL]

It's not what I thought. Don't worry.

Okay, that sounded jerkish but I wanted to make sure you knew.

Those also don't quite work since the Fairies give them to you and they'd know if you still have need of them or not, I think.

Alright. But, again, nothing disproves it either so you can't be sue that I'm not correct.

I did think of that myself, but there's something we shouldn't forget: destiny!
If we are to listen to the Deku Tree's words, and he's been around since forever so I would, destiny is a very real thing in Hyrule. Furthermore, Link coming to Termina just in time to save it and with the instrument to give him that time he needs is a little bit too convenient to be just chance isn't it?
Therefore, I believe it was always Link's destiny to end up in Termina when he did and lose the Triforce upon doing so. I didn't mention it until now, since I know it won't change your mind, but since we are on the topic: do you remember what was on the floor in the room where Skull Kid casts his curse frightening the heck out of Link? A Triforce with the triangles upside down and one of the shrunk to be smaller than the others. Somehow, I don't think that's a coincidence

I knew you were going to say that, and I'm sorry but I don't think that's the case. If we were dealing with destiny then it wouldn't be possible for there to be a split. If everything was predetermined to happened in Hyrule then Ganondorf would become King of Evil and rule Hyrule for 7 years no matter what the circumstances, no matter what Link did. Also, he would get always have to get the Triforce and so the idea of the Triforce not actually being in TP is null and void.

We are told in OoT and MM that Link becoming the hero was a fufillment of destiny. But his saving Termina was not. Quite the opposite, in fact. Termina's Kaepora Gaebora says himself that the decay that each of the lands of Termina are fated to be decaying. He says that they are fated to fall into darkness or something similar. But you know what he also says? That Link must change the fate of these lands. If it was his destiny to save the lands, then it would not mean changing fate. It would mean fufilling it, which is clearly not the case judging by Kaepora Gaebora's dialogue.

As for the Triforce thing, I don't believe that's correct. What's actually on the floor is two triangles which basically resemble how the ToC and the ToW look next to each other, with one difference that sets it apart from the Triforce. Power is below the other two. Which basically means nothing when it comes to the ToC. So, in reality I don't think that it's supposed to be a hint of some plot device that they hadn't even thought up yet. It's just a visual clue that Termina is a twisted, bizzare world different from Hyrule.

Actually you know what I would like to know but honestly can't tell for sure? When the whole deal with the Interlopers happened. Some people believe it to have happened during the "fierce wars", but the vision seems to suggest to me that it all happened a lot earlier, possibly not long after the creation of Hyrule (so to those of us who place MC before OoT that would mean it'd be before both games, including probably MC's backstory with the hero of men).
That and I'd like to know whether Arbiter's Ground was built to hold the Interlopers until their banishment (which I think Midna would have bitched about) or later, which would suggest that as Auru said, the Mirror was placed in it (and supposedly used) for the purpose of banishing other criminals (which however is another thing Midna doesn't whine about... but then they also failed to notice Ganondorf for several decades).

I, personally, don't think that the Mirror or the Arbiter's Grounds have anything to do with the banishment of the Interlopers, other than the fact that the Mirror was left by the gods in the aftermath of the sealing. The sealing, to me, appears to have happened instantly. The Arbiter's Grounds was used to keep the Mirror, but it's main use was to hold criminals. The only other thing that may have something to do with the Twili is the fact that the living dead reside in the Arbiter's Grounds. The interlopers may have had something to do with that.

[Duke Serkol]

Alright. But, again, nothing disproves it either so you can't be sue that I'm not correct.

*Nod*

If we were dealing with destiny then it wouldn't be possible for there to be a split.

The split couldn't have been planned and expected by the Gods all along?
Omniscience shouldn't be troubled by timelines

Termina's Kaepora Gaebora says himself that the decay that each of the lands of Termina are fated to be decaying. He says that they are fated to fall into darkness or something similar. But you know what he also says? That Link must change the fate of these lands.

Interesting. I did not (do not actually, but I take your word for them) remember those quotes.

As for the Triforce thing, I don't believe that's correct. What's actually on the floor is two triangles which basically resemble how the ToC and the ToW look next to each other, with one difference that sets it apart from the Triforce. Power is below the other two. Which basically means nothing when it comes to the ToC.

And the one you identify as ToP would be shrunk down because..?

I, personally, don't think that the Mirror or the Arbiter's Grounds have anything to do with the banishment of the Interlopers, other than the fact that the Mirror was left by the gods in the aftermath of the sealing. The sealing, to me, appears to have happened instantly.

Well, it looks like we agree on one thing

The Arbiter's Grounds was used to keep the Mirror, but it's main use was to hold criminals.

But wouldn't you agree that the only possible reason to put it into a prison then, would have been to do as Auru told and use it to commute death sentences into exile? (Or are you agreeing and I'm failing to notice it?)

The only other thing that may have something to do with the Twili is the fact that the living dead reside in the Arbiter's Grounds. The interlopers may have had something to do with that.

How so?

Also a question: what do you make of the soldiers protecting StalLord? Did you notice the design on their shield?

Edited by Duke Serkol, 02 April 2007 - 07:58 PM.

[FDL]

The split couldn't have been planned and expected by the Gods all along?
Omniscience shouldn't be troubled by timelines

I'd say not. Destiny isn't really like that, for the most part.

Interesting. I did not (do not actually, but I take your word for them) remember those quotes.

It'll probably take me a while to find a video or something that shows those scenes, but here's one just to demonstrate what I mean:

(Refering to the statues): "I have placed those throughout the land to aid the one with the power to change the destiny of this land" Also, he says that it will be a struggle or something similar if Link tries to do this, implying even further that Link's actually changing things. I'd go so far as to say Link sort of changed Hyrule's destiny somewhat, which is why there's even a split.

And the one you identify as ToP would be shrunk down because..?

I don't remember that being the case. But even so, the fact remains that the way Link initially faces it makes it the ToP in positioning.

Well, it looks like we agree on one thing

Hey, at least we can be somewhat civil about it. That's unique for these boards.

But wouldn't you agree that the only possible reason to put it into a prison then, would have been to do as Auru told and use it to commute death sentences into exile? (Or are you agreeing and I'm failing to notice it?)

I'm not sure. I'd say that I was sure that Auru's words were hearsay, if it weren't for the fact that he apparently heard these tales from the sages. So I'm not sure, it's odd that the Mirror was a last resort in Ganondorf's case, but apparently not in other prisoner's cases.

How so?

Well, maybe the magic of the Mirror. Something must be causing the "malice of the doomed inmates" to be tangible. Because I think that the Redead and Stalfos are the inmates, reanimated. And the miniboss is some sort of really dangerous monster, hence the weird seals(I guess Japanese-esque).

Also a question: what do you make of the soldiers protecting StalLord? Did you notice the design on their shield?

I'm not sure. I think it definetly shows how powerful Zant/Ganondorf's magic is. What was on their shields?

[Duke Serkol]

I'd say not. Destiny isn't really like that, for the most part.

So you assume that when Zelda split the timeline the Gods, despite their omniscience were "WTF? Can she do that? Of heck she just did!"

It'll probably take me a while to find a video or something that shows those scenes, but here's one just to demonstrate what I mean:

(Refering to the statues): "I have placed those throughout the land to aid the one with the power to change the destiny of this land"

Thanks for digging that up

I don't remember that being the case. But even so, the fact remains that the way Link initially faces it makes it the ToP in positioning.

If we assume the positioning to be always a constant which may not be the case.

I'm not sure. I'd say that I was sure that Auru's words were hearsay, if it weren't for the fact that he apparently heard these tales from the sages. So I'm not sure, it's odd that the Mirror was a last resort in Ganondorf's case, but apparently not in other prisoner's cases.

Yes, that's what I think as well. Just don't let Fyxe overhear you say that

Well, maybe the magic of the Mirror. Something must be causing the "malice of the doomed inmates" to be tangible. Because I think that the Redead and Stalfos are the inmates, reanimated.

But if we assume (as we do) that the mirror was made by the Gods after they banished the Interlopers, then they couldn't be responsible for the malice wherein. Rather, it could be the remaining malice of those who the Sages banished through the mirror.

I'm not sure. I think it definetly shows how powerful Zant/Ganondorf's magic is. What was on their shields?

Of course, but I meant: who do you think they were in life? Guards? Prisoners?
Onto the shield is a circle with three "spikes" pointing upward and two lines coming down. It looks kind of like the eye used by Agahnim.

[FDL]

So you assume that when Zelda split the timeline the Gods, despite their omniscience were "WTF? Can she do that? Of heck she just did!"

Maybe not like that, but yes. But I don't think it was necessarily Zelda who split the timeline. The way Aonuma says it and the nature of these things says that something caused it to split, which is what did happen. When Zelda sent Link back, it was basically the same timeline, different year. But then someone(Link, the Sages) prevented Ganondorf from actually ruling over Hyrule. That's what changed the time, and caused a "split"(though it's not really even that). And so while some things happened similarly to the way they orginally did(we some evidence of this in TP itself), the parallel timeline was different. And that's basically what happened, I think. The games seem to make this far more likely than Zelda creating a new timeline. I mean, the exact details are sort of hard to work out, but I think that if Link hadn't prevented Ganondorf from taking over Hyrule a split would have become null because the two timelines would be identical. Another possibility is that Link's mere presence changed the fate of Hyrule, because he was meant to be in the Sacred Realm. Overall, I'm not sure, but to answer your question, no, the split was not predestined. Nothing that isn't linear can be predestined, because that's just how it is. Another way to explain it would be that it was actually sort of the nature of time that caused the "split". Despite the fact that Link prevented Ganondorf from actually becoming King, time says he did. So while he did erase it in a way, the occurence of Ganondorf taking over existed in some way, which is why the TWW timeline exists. That's also why I hate the "split" timeline, and believe that a linear approach should have been Nintendo's approach. But it's too late now.

Thanks for digging that up

No prob.

If we assume the positioning to be always a constant which may not be the case.

Oh, come on. They probably hadn't even thought of TWW yet. And in a so-called "split" timeline interaction between the two is impossible. That's why I disagree with the term "split", because that's incorrect. The two times are completely separate. So I'll say it again. IT WAS NOT MEANT AS A HINT!

But if we assume (as we do) that the mirror was made by the Gods after they banished the Interlopers, then they couldn't be responsible for the malice wherein. Rather, it could be the remaining malice of those who the Sages banished through the mirror.

I don't know about this. It still seems absurd to me that they would banish criminals into the Twilight Realm, but the Sages apparently said it...

Of course, but I meant: who do you think they were in life? Guards? Prisoners?
Onto the shield is a circle with three "spikes" pointing upward and two lines coming down. It looks kind of like the eye used by Agahnim.

Possibly guards, possibly failed heroes. I'm not sure.

[Duke Serkol]

Maybe not like that, but yes.

I'll leave it at that

Oh, come on. They probably hadn't even thought of TWW yet.

Maybe not, but is it all that unlikely that they could already have decided to reveal in whatever next game they'd make that Link lost the Triforce upon leaving the land behind and embarking on another journey?

I don't know about this. It still seems absurd to me that they would banish criminals into the Twilight Realm, but the Sages apparently said it...

Absurd? Why? They could have reasoned "Well, the Gods put a bunch or war criminals there, so let's do the same". Or do you say that because said prisoners are never brought up again during the game (not while we venture into the Twilight Realm nor even just bitched about by Midna)?
That is indeed puzzling... but as I kept thinking about it, I came to wonder: why is it Ganon did not show up where Link does right away? Instead he, decades later, descended from the sky? This made me remember Ganondorf's line before the final battle about how the hatred of the Twili bled across the void awakening him. Could it be (if we assume the mirror was not used for the Interlopers) that when it is used to banish someone (unlike Link's case as he willingly goes in) the victim ends up in a void between the two dimensions instead (yeah, like Phantom Ganondorf )
It's a long shot, but not completely lacking basis.

Possibly guards, possibly failed heroes. I'm not sure.

The reason I ask, in case you're wondering, is that the fused shadow has a similar symbol on its back. And the Interlopers used Dark Magic... (which apparently is represented by an eye without tears, like Agahnim's, Twinrova's or the ones we see on Ganondorf's abode in TWW).

[FDL]

I'll leave it at that

No. The stupid notion many have a "split" timeline shouldn't be written off like that, and the fact that you have no rebuttal isn't something you should be proud of. Time doesn't work the way you say it does, and the fact that you use "destiny" as your explanation is lazy. Don't try to argue points if you're not willing to explain why it works at all. Destiny involves linear events, and any changes in said events immediately cannot be destiny.

Maybe not, but is it all that unlikely that they could already have decided to reveal in whatever next game they'd make that Link lost the Triforce upon leaving the land behind and embarking on another journey?

Yes, it is unlikely. This is Nintendo we're talking about. That symbol cannot be used as proof at all because it means nothing.

Absurd? Why? They could have reasoned "Well, the Gods put a bunch or war criminals there, so let's do the same". Or do you say that because said prisoners are never brought up again during the game (not while we venture into the Twilight Realm nor even just bitched about by Midna)?

That, and the fact that Ganondorf being thrown in was a last resort.

That is indeed puzzling... but as I kept thinking about it, I came to wonder: why is it Ganon did not show up where Link does right away? Instead he, decades later, descended from the sky? This made me remember Ganondorf's line before the final battle about how the hatred of the Twili bled across the void awakening him. Could it be (if we assume the mirror was not used for the Interlopers) that when it is used to banish someone (unlike Link's case as he willingly goes in) the victim ends up in a void between the two dimensions instead (yeah, like Phantom Ganondorf )

It's possible, but no indication is given of that.

The reason I ask, in case you're wondering, is that the fused shadow has a similar symbol on its back. And the Interlopers used Dark Magic... (which apparently is represented by an eye without tears, like Agahnim's, Twinrova's or the ones we see on Ganondorf's abode in TWW).

Honestly, I think some of the stuff is just people trying to make connections where there are none. I mean, ALttP has actual bosses which are designed based on eyes and yet there is no connection.

[Evilsbane]

Oh crap. I thought you meant that FSA comes in between OoT and TP, as Evilsbane and SOAP believe. Sorry

Well, it's a theory I'm toying with; I'm also toying with other placements but I like discussing the controversial one.

[Duke Serkol]

the fact that you have no rebuttal isn't something you should be proud of.

I don't need a rebuttal. You just agreed that the Gods are omniscient but then said they didn't know ahead of the timeline split *shrugs*

That, and the fact that Ganondorf being thrown in was a last resort.

But that is Ganondorf's case. Having sometimes commuted death sentence to exile doesn't bind them to doing so every time.

It's possible, but no indication is given of that.

No solid proof, yeah.

Honestly, I think some of the stuff is just people trying to make connections where there are none. I mean, ALttP has actual bosses which are designed based on eyes and yet there is no connection.

Vitreous/Gel Doga? That was a group of giant Gels, they didn't have three lines over the eye and some more below. Anyway, I'm not saying that there certainly is a connection, just wondering about it.

[FDL]

I don't need a rebuttal. You just agreed that the Gods are omniscient but then said they didn't know ahead of the timeline split *shrugs*

No, because omniscience doesn't mean they know what would happen if the linear path they had set for Hyrule was changed. With a split, at least the immediate portion of it, there can't be destiny. Destiny was Link becoming the hero, not changing the future.

But that is Ganondorf's case. Having sometimes commuted death sentence to exile doesn't bind them to doing so every time.

It just seems incredibly stupid of them to use it so much. Like they're letting a lion into a prison or something.

Vitreous/Gel Doga? That was a group of giant Gels, they didn't have three lines over the eye and some more below. Anyway, I'm not saying that there certainly is a connection, just wondering about it.

No, you may be right. A connection between these various eye symbols is very possible. I mean, the interelopers are portrayed as shadows of a Hylian and their magic as an eye symbol while the Sheikah are described as shadows of Hylians and also have an eye symbol. There definetly could be a connection. I mean, considering the Twili banishment seemingly happened before OoT, the Stallord's soldiers could be the Sheikah who became guards of the Arbiter's Grounds. While that's never said, it could be a possibility. But some things, like the symbols on the Forsaken Fortress probably have nothing to do with the Sheikah because I can't see how it would. The only people who could, given the circumstances, be connected to the Sheikah would be Tetra's crew.

[Fyxe]

magic as an eye symbol

Where the fook is this coming from? Where is magic portrayed as an eye symbol?

while the Sheikah are described as shadows of Hylians and also have an eye symbol.

Sheikahs are described as shadows because they are basically NINJAS. It's about Japanese culture. In Fire Emblem, one of the characters is described as the king of Gallia's 'shadow', he is essentially an immensely strong bodyguard, like a ninja. The Shiekah aren't LITERALLY shadows, it's just termonology used for describing ninjas.

Dark/Shadow Link, on the other hand, is something else entirely.

I mean, considering the Twili banishment seemingly happened before OoT, the Stallord's soldiers could be the Sheikah who became guards of the Arbiter's Grounds.

What?

...No connection here. o.o Where'd that come from? Staltroops are just... Types of Stalfos. Stalfos are Stalfos, where's the Sheikah connection there?

Besides, Sheikahs are ninjas, Stalfos are sword and shield warriors like Link. Link is no ninja.

But some things, like the symbols on the Forsaken Fortress probably have nothing to do with the Sheikah because I can't see how it would. The only people who could, given the circumstances, be connected to the Sheikah would be Tetra's crew.

There's a lot of eye symbols around. I can't remember which topic I mentioned it in, but in OoT, there's posters on the walls of the Shooting Gallery that look almost exactly like Vaati or Death Eye. This was probably a vague homage to Death Eye, or something else entirely.

Edited by Fyxe, 04 April 2007 - 08:24 AM.

[FDL]

Where the fook is this coming from? Where is magic portrayed as an eye symbol?

I'm talking about the huge eye on the back of the Fused Sh.adows

Sheikahs are described as shadows because they are basically NINJAS. It's about Japanese culture. In Fire Emblem, one of the characters is described as the king of Gallia's 'shadow', he is essentially an immensely strong bodyguard, like a ninja. The Shiekah aren't LITERALLY shadows, it's just termonology used for describing ninjas.

Whatever. I'm just conceding to Serkol that it's a possibility, though I'm in the same boat as you mostly.

Dark/Shadow Link, on the other hand, is something else entirely.

Oh yeah? You, personally, know what the creators intent was in that cutscene? Because I wasn't aware anyone knew.

What?

...No connection here. o.o Where'd that come from? Staltroops are just... Types of Stalfos. Stalfos are Stalfos, where's the Sheikah connection there?

Did you just stumble into this thread? Because you would know that I'm just saying it's possible, but I said in one of my other posts that we shouldn't try to connect every eye symbol because they're too numerous and are probably nothing. But I admitted to Serkol that there could be a connection. So I don't know why you're going after me as if I give a shit if every eye symbol is connected, or if I care about the stupid, baseless theory that the teardrop means they're fighting evil, either. They're just eyes, nothing more. But that said everything could be connected.

[Fyxe]

I'm talking about the huge eye on the back of the Fused Sh.adows

Never spotted that, personally. But there's a lot of weird eye like things on Twili stuff, so it wouldn't surprise me. Doesn't mean it's anything to do with anything else, mind you.

Oh yeah? You, personally, know what the creators intent was in that cutscene? Because I wasn't aware anyone knew.

...I merely said Dark Link is not the same as a Shiekah.

Which is bloody true.

Did you just stumble into this thread? Because you would know that I'm just saying it's possible, but I said in one of my other posts that we shouldn't try to connect every eye symbol because they're too numerous and are probably nothing. But I admitted to Serkol that there could be a connection. So I don't know why you're going after me as if I give a shit if every eye symbol is connected, or if I care about the stupid, baseless theory that the teardrop means they're fighting evil, either. They're just eyes, nothing more. But that said everything could be connected.

...For fuck's sake, defensive much? I just asked what the connection between Shiekah and Stalfos was. IT WAS A GENUINE QUERY. Am I not allowed to ask simple questions anymore or does my reputation preceed me that much?

For god's sake. I can't say anything around here anymore because a lot of you have got a bloody twisted view of me.