121 replies to this topic

[The Missing Link]

And if that was the case, they would have had Zelda watch through the window (immediately making everybody think of Ganondorf meeting the King) why?

Again, a very simple artistic explanation will resolve this.

The story truly got under way the moment Link met Zelda. Sure, there was the Deku Tree, but the Deku Tree died, and it wasn't him (but rather Zelda) that truly told Link precisely what was going on. It was Link and Zelda's conspiracy that REALLY got the plot moving and outlined practically the rest of the game. So since the whole thing "started" with Zelda, it is only right for things to end with a scene including her as well. In the final scene, when you see Link's Triforce in that scene, and Link and Zelda are staring at one another, I could just hear the words, "Zelda, it's finished," coming out of Link's mouth. I think that's the artistic intent here, that this image is meant to bring closure to this game.

Now as far as where, well... where else are we going to do it? The only physical location we've ever seen Zelda in the child half of the game is in that courtyard, looking through the window. And let's be honest, Hyrule Castle--what was constructed of it--isn't really all that much of a castle. There isn't anywhere decent that we'd recognise that also seems to have meaning... except that courtyard and that window. The place which has the most meaning, the place that will have the greatest artistic impact is precisely where it "started." All of a sudden, the memory of meeting her will rush back.

So why is Zelda now looking through the window? Parallelism. What we've established is a parallel scene from the one at the beginning. Yet I certainly believe that Nintendo wished us to interpret this as a different scene, not the identically same one. The Triforce here, after all, shows that there is some amount of difference, that this isn't going to play out the exact same way as the previous scene with child Zelda. To me, it didn't invoke Ganondorf because I thought that this scene was supposed to be a finishing story, with Link telling his tale to Zelda and letting the story finish itself off. The Triforce represents those ends.

Well, in my interpretation, Link and Zelda did accomplish something, they didn't let Ganondorf enter the Sacred Realm (by taking the Ocarina out of reach) and thus caused his later invasion of Hyrule to fail.

Yes, but Ganondorf is still out there. Maybe. Link didn't kill him; in fact, that last image we had of Ganondorf--back when we finally sealed him--he cursed us both and promised to come after our descendants. He was pissed and angry. Your interpretation here is more or less irrelevant because it's not looking at things from the 1998 perspective. You're asking why the scene was created in this way, and back when this was created, I don't think a split timeline was even realised. (And for proof, the community back in the early 2000s, was still arguing over whether or not there was one Link or more, not whether there was more than one timeline.) Now where Ganondorf went, we don't know, but Link didn't finish the job; he left it open for Ganondorf to later on conquer Hyrule again... and the game comes out and says precisely that!

This isn't like the "Master Sword sleeps forever" ending of Link to the Past where the finality is all in the words; the finality of the ending of Ocarina of Time is completely artificial. And in order to create finality, for the player to be "happy" with the ending instead of realising, "oh crap, I just failed miserably!" they had to construct two very careful scenes. (1) They had the big party in the field to show that Ganondorf was no more, and (2) they put the Link/Zelda scene as a bookend to the first to wrap up the final loose end... and they played that artfully well. (They had too.)

This one little scene is really what you might call an art piece. It was created very carefully, crafted to achieve just the right effect. It needed to establish closure without invoking some new and present (or old and present) danger that would ruin it. And I think they achieved that to the letter. And let's be honest; back in 1998, there wasn't much room for us to "interpret" stuff anyway. It was the end of the game... and then we truly picked up with our timelining with the sealing of Ganondorf adult-side (disregarding Majora's Mask). But the ending of the game? It's sealed up in a nice little package... despite the fact that Ganondorf could very well still be out there... plotting to kill them or their descendants.... But we're not thinking of it in this scene; the quest is over, and we've gone to see Zelda... to put the whole ordeal to rest. Finally.

That's the intended image, I believe, 1998-style.

Edited by The Missing Link, 29 March 2007 - 11:25 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

the Gerudo are not of the Kingdom of Hyrule either.

Yea they are.

[FDL]

Yea they are.

Nope. First of all, OoT differentiates constantly between the two places constantly. Also, Ganon himself says that his country was in a desert at the end of TWW. The Gerudo Desert is not technically part of Hyrule.

TML, once again you articulated many of the things I was saying. Thanks.

[Hero of Legend]

The Gerudo Dessert is a province to Hyrule, according to Twilight Princess.

And TML; I don't normally like it when people tell me what to think, but you've pretty much nailed OoT's ending scene right there. The scene itself is meant to give a sense of finality to the game, but the ToC is there to show that things are different this time around. Basically, Adult Link’s adventure wasn’t entirely pointless. Which is kind of a relief.

[FDL]

Perhaps by then it was, but it wasn't during OoT. And again, in TWW Ganon says he grew up in another country. But that's not really my main point, because it isn't a fact that the interlopers were from another land/world. It's only a theory, and the obvious parallels between the two stories should not be thrown out merely because of a theory, in my opinion.

[Duke Serkol]

that's not really probable and it's too sloppy to be the solution for this.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. By the same token, I'm entitled to saying it seems like a perfect solution to me

TP mentions the current Link inheriting the power of the ancient hero, details of which point to the hero being the HoT and the power being the ToC. TP seems to me to be retconning the idea of it leaving him when he went to Termina.

The term "inherit" is never ever used. Link is only told he has the same power, not that it was passed on to him. Rather he too is said to have been chosen by the Gods to wield it.

Honestly, it's hard to even debate this with you because it seems so obvious to me that the only way what you're saying would work is if there was a single timeline, which there isn't. I mean, I saw the scene with Faron as basically proving that what we thought about TWW was slightly wrong. Plus, I think you're focusing too heavily on the scene with Ganon. Link has apparently had the crest for a very ong time, considering he didn't even know he had said power. If it's not a physical connection to the Triforce as you say, I don't see how that could happen.

It's not nearly as complicate as you make it sound. Ganon receives a connection to the Triforce of Power during his execution, Link receives one to the Triforce of Courage on birth, to balance the scales. Simple. I don't see any reason this would require a single timeline.

I'm sorry, but you're theory is not at all "perfectly clear" to everyone else who is at least as informed as you are. If it were really so clear I think you're theory would be held more in the majority.

Actually what I meant to say is that even though ALttP > LoZ was clear enough from the beginning there were a lot, A LOT, of people who didn't consider it a fact. Even now there are some who do not.

But that's the thing, the sages, while commanded by the gods to guard the mirror, were acting under their own volition in their capture of Ganondorf. That's what the divine prank was, I think. They believed that the gods were aiding them in everything they did, which ended up not being the case when Ganondorf survived the attack.

To that I can agree.

It's not meant to be uninfluenced, though. This is meant to add on to, and strengthen, the knowledge we already have. I could do that with any line to twist it however I wanted.

Well, if you want to assume you can only understand the dialogue of the game by having played all the rest of the series that's your choice. I doubt that was the programmers intention.

"To defy the gods with such petty magic, only to be cast aside..How very pathetic." We had just seen him do this exact thing in OoT! And in TP it again says he did this. If he had failed in his attempt and the gods had intervened, then he would not gloat in such a way. The act of trying to take the Triforce is in itself defying the gods, and it is not only decided as such depending on what the gods think. He wouldn't mock their being "cast aside" if he too had been.

... *sigh*
Ganondorf or anybody from Hyrule getting the Triforce has NEVER meant defying the Gods. The Triforce has been left behind precisely so it could be used by anybody in Hyrule.
And when I say he appears to have failed in seizing it prior to TP, I do not imply that it was the Gods who stopped him. It was the Sages. The Gods actually appear to have done the opposite and granted him the Power he was after.

It's a cool idea, but nothing really suggests that it is the case. Again, the Gerudo are not of the Kingdom of Hyrule either.

Right, nothing... nevermind all the above. Do feel free to ignore any and all points I bring up. Especially the part about the desert being also a part of the WORLD of Hyrule albeit not the Kingdom.

Plus, we have never been given any indication that they wanted anyone to touch the Triforce.

Because clearly the manual of ALttP doesn't exist.

Yeah, it does mean something. It really detracts from the story of Zant and his desire for vengeance if the Twili had come from somewhere else to get into the SR.

Right, because he has no reason to be mad at the cherished children of the Gods that were allowed to live in the world of Light rather than a realm of shadow in which his ancestors were sealed. None at all.

Why would he allow himself to be buried under the tower if he could just use the ToP to do anything he wanted? And in OoT, Ganon is supposedly stronger than Ganondorf. Why wouldn't he have immediately transformed into Ganon? Zelda says herself, Ganondorf could not control he power of the gods. And by then, he had had seven years to figure out how he could!

Being "buried" didn't make a difference to him. He doesn't have a scratch, nothing comparable to that wound in TP at least. As for why he didn't turn into Ganon right away, two reasons: if you were confident in yourself would you turn into a monster to defeat an enemy you thought you could take on without doing so? I doubt it. And reason number 2, as you and TML keep saying, it's a game. They have things called multiphases boss fights.
Zelda's line didn't necessarily mean "Ganondorf is an ass who couldn't figure out how to use his power" then a collapsing tower later "Uh oh, now he has!". She was most likely speaking about how power-hungry Ganondorf is.

You're not listening at all. I'm saying that Ganondorf was keeping an eye on him and I don't think he would have just let Link go.

But. He. Has.

Because they wanted it to parallel that scene in an artsy way. Perhaps even make us believe at first that everything had been for naught until we see the ToC on Link's hand.

Possible, I suppose... but that still nullifies their supposed intent in showing only Link's Triforce since most people did wonder if it was Ganondorf Zelda was looking at.

Now that's just not true. In your interpretation, Link and Zelda went through [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of trouble to defeat Ganon just to be figuratively slapped in the face when the gods decided to give Ganon some power we haven't heard of before. So, they still didn't accomplish anything.

But Hyrule did not endure a seven years reign of darkness. That's what I'd call a good result.

Again, it's hard to really explain how strongly I feel about this, the fact that you didn't feel that the MM references in TWW were retconned baffles me.

Oh believe me, I know exactly how you're feeling.

Yes, but Ganondorf is still out there. Maybe. Link didn't kill him

Isn't that pretty much a fact now that TP is out?

Your interpretation here is more or less irrelevant because it's not looking at things from the 1998 perspective.

If my interpretation is irrelevant so is anybody's. Then we can all just shut up, close the forum and keep ourselves busy in other ways.

You're asking why the scene was created in this way, and back when this was created, I don't think a split timeline was even realised.

There's two points to consider though: first that's what you think (). Second, even if that was the case then, the split timeline, is a reality now, and it has been developed over OoT's ending, meaning that it would account for what was shown and not shown int it.

[The Missing Link]

Isn't that pretty much a fact now that TP is out?

You'll have to apologise me for my wonky time machine. When I tell it to fast forward me to present day, it takes a few times for it to kick in.

If my interpretation is irrelevant so is anybody's. Then we can all just shut up, close the forum and keep ourselves busy in other ways.

There's two points to consider though: first that's what you think (). Second, even if that was the case then, the split timeline, is a reality now, and it has been developed over OoT's ending, meaning that it would account for what was shown and not shown int it.

We're arguing two different points here, so let me explain where we're both going to highlight the difference. You're trying to take the scene and figure out how it fits knowing what we know now. I'm trying to take the scene and figure out what it meant back then. These are two very different concepts with two very different answers.

The reason for this is because the timeline is reactive. It has to be. Whenever a new game is developed, the creators become "bound" by things that have been done previously. Twilight had to conform to Ocarina because, guess what, Ocarina cannot be easily changed. They cannot change the original game's text or cutscenes because it's already shipped. But what happens if they decide that they have to colour outside the lines of what they did? They're forced, then, to do a reinterpretation. They must reinvent the scene in their own minds, virtually taking out certain things or adding certain things as necessary to make it fit as close as possible with what they want to do. That's the only power they have. And when this happen, certain elements become--by consequence--non-canon. Retconned. Whatever you'd like to call it.

What I have expressed in my past posts is what that scene was meant to say back in 1998, what I believe was meant to be interpreted from that 8-9 years ago. (Of course, this is my opinion, but knowing how games have to end, there's not a lot of variation from this that is a likely alternative.) Are we supposed to interpret this scene different than we did back then? Quite possibly. Is Link actually supposed to have the ToC in that scene knowing how the next few years with Twilight Princess pan out? Perhaps not. In 1998, its appearance was artistic, not necessarily based upon Triforce physics. (It may have been, but I doubt it.) Thus, its significance to that scene back in 1998 may not be so significant today in 2007.

Whenever something is done purely for aesthetic (and much of the games probably are), it will inevitably defy common sense when future things are derived from it, especially if the creator decides to take it in a different direction. What I'm advocating here is that we shouldn't look so closely into this scene and believe every little detail is worth its face value because it's probably not. Everything you see there really is an art choice and doesn't have more meaning than that... unless Nintendo's reinterpretation explicitly gave it significance.

And TML; I don't normally like it when people tell me what to think, but you've pretty much nailed OoT's ending scene right there. The scene itself is meant to give a sense of finality to the game, but the ToC is there to show that things are different this time around. Basically, Adult Link’s adventure wasn’t entirely pointless. Which is kind of a relief.

Thank you muchly.

Edited by The Missing Link, 29 March 2007 - 04:43 PM.

[FDL]

I may need to clarify later, I wrote a huge thing and everything was erased so I'll try as best I can to keep patience enough to type out new responses which keep the point I was trying to make.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. By the same token, I'm entitled to saying it seems like a perfect solution to me

Yeah, whatever. I'm more debating against what I think can't work with you're theory. But if you think otherwise privately, I'm not one to stop you.

The term "inherit" is never ever used. Link is only told he has the same power, not that it was passed on to him. Rather he too is said to have been chosen by the Gods to wield it.

I doubt that they would make said connection if they didn't want one. Plus, if the ancient hero is really the OoT Link as most believe, when did he get this made up power that we've never heard of or seen in previous games? In OoT, he had the ToC.

It's not nearly as complicate as you make it sound. Ganon receives a connection to the Triforce of Power during his execution, Link receives one to the Triforce of Courage on birth, to balance the scales. Simple. I don't see any reason this would require a single timeline.

I'm talking about the idea that Link had the ToC until he went to MM.

Actually what I meant to say is that even though ALttP > LoZ was clear enough from the beginning there were a lot, A LOT, of people who didn't consider it a fact. Even now there are some who do not.

Oooo, you're subtle. Let us not bring some dumb timeline in my sig into this debate, okay?

Well, if you want to assume you can only understand the dialogue of the game by having played all the rest of the series that's your choice. I doubt that was the programmers intention.

Your whole ToC theory is based solely on the connection between games, so you're not really one to talk. Plus, that's the point of this forum.

... *sigh*
Ganondorf or anybody from Hyrule getting the Triforce has NEVER meant defying the Gods. The Triforce has been left behind precisely so it could be used by anybody in Hyrule.

JP ALttP manual. It says, clear as crystal, that an oracle of the gods was made which commanded the Hylians(specifically the ancient sages according to TP) to create the Master Sword to defend the Triforce and teh Scared Realm from evil. Plus, why would the Triforce split on anyone without a righteous, balanced heart if it was intended to be used by any old person from Hyrule?

And when I say he appears to have failed in seizing it prior to TP, I do not imply that it was the Gods who stopped him. It was the Sages. The Gods actually appear to have done the opposite and granted him the Power he was after.

But it's not the real power of the Triforce anyway. He'd be more interested in getting into the SR if the Triforce was still there.

Right, nothing... nevermind all the above. Do feel free to ignore any and all points I bring up. Especially the part about the desert being also a part of the WORLD of Hyrule albeit not the Kingdom.

First of all, the concept of the Twili being from another world is a THEORY and nothing more. Do you realize how absurd it is that you act as though I'm "ignoring" something when it's not even a fact? Anyway, having rewatched the scene, I can say that I still believe it implies that the Twili were of the world of light prior to their attempt to get the Triforce. The first thing it says about them is that they appeared "among those living in the light", and that semingly the only difference between them and the rest of the light-worlders was that they excelled in a dark magic. Really, other than the word "interloper", which could mean a great many things given the context, there is little that suggests they are not of the world of light. In fact, I doubt that they would have put emphasis on the fact that they were counted as being among the light-worlders if they were not.

As for other things in the text which support my point, here's two. First of all, they say word spread in Hyrule about the Sacred Realm, no mention is made of anyone else. Secondly, the first thing Lanayru tells us is that they gave power equally to those among the light. Why would they even bring that up if the Twili had nothing to do with it? Simple, because they did. The gods, however, decided they didn't want a single group of light-worlders having the Fused Shadows or the Triforce whilst the other light-worlders had no such gifts. The fact that Ganondorf was allowed to have the same power that the gods had so adamantly prevented anyone from having before made Ganondorf believe he was chosen.

Because clearly the manual of ALttP doesn't exist.

It does exist, but I don't remember anything ever saying that the Triforce was there so anyone could get it if they felt like it. In fact, the ALttP manual in Japan apparently says quite the opposite, as I mentioned before. They commanded the people to create the Master Sword specifically to combat any evil being who tried to get the Triforce. Plus, why would they have sealed Ganondorf and Hyrule away in TWW's backstory or make it so that the Triforce splits in the hands of an individual of an unbalanced heart if they didn't care who got the Triforce? Point is, while they didn't let Ganondorf obtain the whole Triforce, they did give him the ToP after he grabbed the Triforce, something which they hadn't done for anyone else.

Right, because he has no reason to be mad at the cherished children of the Gods that were allowed to live in the world of Light rather than a realm of shadow in which his ancestors were sealed. None at all.

They were asking for it, though, if they weren't even from the light world in the first place, as you say.

Being "buried" didn't make a difference to him. He doesn't have a scratch, nothing comparable to that wound in TP at least. As for why he didn't turn into Ganon right away, two reasons: if you were confident in yourself would you turn into a monster to defeat an enemy you thought you could take on without doing so? I doubt it. And reason number 2, as you and TML keep saying, it's a game. They have things called multiphases boss fights.

As I mentioned in a topic a while ago, that wound may not have been as severe as you think. While it glows, the glowing dissipates after he is killed by Link at the end of the game, perhaps telling us that the glowing aspect may have even been favorable, or atleast having something to do with his power. But that's not the main point. Bringing down the tower on himself was a despreation move, plain and simple. If he had full use of the ToP, he probably could have done something else and would not have to resort to destroying the tower. He could have turned into Ganon at that time and tossed Link off the tower or any number of things. Plus, if he were just faking it he wouldn't have let Zelda go.

Zelda's line didn't necessarily mean "Ganondorf is an ass who couldn't figure out how to use his power" then a collapsing tower later "Uh oh, now he has!". She was most likely speaking about how power-hungry Ganondorf is.

I sort of answered pieces of this in the last snippet but here's another thing: why would she say he couldn't control the power of the gods if he could? We don't even see him appear to use the ToP until he's been buried under the tower, the only time before that in which we had seen him with the crest on his hand was when the Triforce was "combining into one again". Also, explain to me why he's coughing on blood, collapsing, and "using the last bit of his magic" to bury everyone in the tower and then suddenly reappear seeming completely fine and suddenly having glowing, pupiless eyes?

But. He. Has.

Listen carefully, this time. IT'S AN INCONSISTENCY NO MATTER HOW YOU EXPLAIN IT, UNLESS YOU DECIDE GANONDORF HAD ALREADY BEEN CAPTURED BY THE TIME OF MM! IF HE HAD THE TRIFORCE, LINK WOULD HAVE WORRIED, AND IF HE DIDN'T, HE WOULD HAVE MURDERED LINK BEFORE HE LEFT HYRULE!

Possible, I suppose... but that still nullifies their supposed intent in showing only Link's Triforce since most people did wonder if it was Ganondorf Zelda was looking at.

When I first beat OoT, I didn't think she was looking at Ganondorf at all. And it was my first, so no other games were influencing my thoughts on that.

But Hyrule did not endure a seven years reign of darkness. That's what I'd call a good result.

But Ganondorf still was around, searching for the Triforce, in your theory. That's a crappy result because Ganondorf could've still gotten the Triforce. Then he was "given the Triforces power", which left him as still a threat
.

Oh believe me, I know exactly how you're feeling.

Why, because I'm going by the obvious, and not making up baseless stuff about the ToC and the Twili just so it suits my theory? With a split timeline, it's very unlikely that the ToC that is in TWW split when Link went back in time. And don't act as though it's a "friendly debate" and then sarcastly insult me. I was only trying to explain why I found it hard to argue this point, because I hadn't encountered anyone who had believed that prior to you.

[Duke Serkol]

No worries about your time machine TML. Happens to everybody, every now and then

We're arguing two different points here, so let me explain where we're both going to highlight the difference. You're trying to take the scene and figure out how it fits knowing what we know now. I'm trying to take the scene and figure out what it meant back then. These are two very different concepts with two very different answers.

But are they? The games that have been developed since OoT to continue off from it, TWW and TP, are based on the story and in game events of OoT, and done largely by the same team of people (so it's not like they don't know what was the intention). Therefore we can't tell for sure but it's more than possible that the old meaning and the new meaning are essentially the very same.

Of course, this is my opinion, but knowing how games have to end, there's not a lot of variation from this that is a likely alternative.

I've seen so many interpretaion of that ending alone and I myself have adopted several over the years... so I hafta beg to differ

What I'm advocating here is that we shouldn't look so closely into this scene and believe every little detail is worth its face value because it's probably not. Everything you see there really is an art choice and doesn't have more meaning than that... unless Nintendo's reinterpretation explicitly gave it significance.

It could be, but it's based on the assumption that they were not planning ahead, which may or may not be true (and again, even if it was, their "re-interpretation" ought to be based on what we got).

Too many quotes, so I'm going to reply to FDL separately...

[Duke Serkol]

I have "shuffled" and mixed your quotes a bit. I didn't want to, but I had to group them a bit since there were too many and the board wouldn't let me post.

Yeah, whatever. I'm more debating against what I think can't work with you're theory. But if you think otherwise privately, I'm not one to stop you.

Yes but the problem is that often times you just told me "I can't prove you wrong but I just don't think you're right".
Which I'm okay with, just please don't treat me like I'm speaking utter nonsense because of it.

I doubt that they would make said connection if they didn't want one. Plus, if the ancient hero is really the OoT Link as most believe, when did he get this made up power that we've never heard of or seen in previous games? In OoT, he had the ToC.

Like I said, that's one of the reasons I believe this is not a power akin to the of the Triforce but a connection to the Triforce itself. Essentially they both would have the power of the Triforce of Courage, only the Link in OoT actually had the Triforce itself within him while that of TP does not.

I'm talking about the idea that Link had the ToC until he went to MM.

Ah that! Yes, that is "more complicated than it seems reasonable" we could say. Nonetheless, it would explain all the apparent inconsistencies in one fell swoop. Why Link has the Triforce mark and Zelda doesn't at the end of OoT, why Ganondorf did not have the power to break free until getting stabbed, why the KoRL says Link lost the ToC upon leaving the land behind. It all works out.

Oooo, you're subtle. Let us not bring some dumb timeline in my sig into this debate, okay?

Oh dear, this is embarassing... I honestly wasn't thinking about your signature's timeline (swear on the Triforce!). I just meant that as an example of how some things in Zelda may appear obvious to some and unlikely to others.
I'll assume you took that as a zing and accept any come backs (or general anger) in the rest of your reply without complaints, in the interest of getting along

Your whole ToC theory is based solely on the connection between games, so you're not really one to talk. Plus, that's the point of this forum.

That's right, but I'm not making characters say things they are not saying by that. Ganondorf is saying he's chosen, the sages said he was chosen... so he was, as far as I'm concerned.

JP ALttP manual. It says, clear as crystal, that an oracle of the gods was made which commanded the Hylians(specifically the ancient sages according to TP) to create the Master Sword to defend the Triforce and teh Scared Realm from evil.

And why would the Gods have that sword created if they intended to deal personally with evil ones who would claim the Triforce? Simple because they won't. The Triforce was left for anybody in Hyrule to claim. The Master Sword was only created so that the rest of Hyrule could protect itself if the person taking it was evil, but the gods wouldn't intervene themselves.
It's sort of like the right of self determination God grants to humans. They gave them the Triforce and the Master Sword, the rest (whether to create a world of peace and harmony or hatred and chaos) is up to them.
The Interlopers however (being Interlopers) are not part of the deal/plan and therefore were stopped.

But it's not the real power of the Triforce anyway. He'd be more interested in getting into the SR if the Triforce was still there.

Actually that's an interesting point you bring up: in OoT and TWW Ganon was obsessed with taking Link and Zelda's Triforce parts. That doesn't seem the case judging by his dialogues in TP. That too, I think, helps the connection to the Triforce theory. If they don't have the actual Triforce parts, Ganon's only interest would be to kill them, so that their connections are severed (the way his ends up upon his death) since he would have no chance of taking their power has chosen of the Gods the way he did in TWW.

First of all, the concept of the Twili being from another world is a THEORY and nothing more.
...
The first thing it says about them is that they appeared "among those living in the light"

That it is, but it explains the different treatment they get from the Gods compared to Ganondorf. And even if they are not from another world, the bottom line is that for any reason, the Gods do discriminate between them and Ganondorf (stopping them but not him). So it doesn't make a big difference to the whol picture.
And appeared is the key word there. As in "appeared from where?"

As for other things in the text which support my point, here's two. First of all, they say word spread in Hyrule about the Sacred Realm, no mention is made of anyone else.

That would be a pretty good point, but that's not when the Interlopers stepped in. When the Light Spirit says that, we are shown the people of Hyrule fighting and killing each other. Then as a victor as emerged and is making a mad dash for the Triforce Ganondorf style... BAM, Interlopers in the face and Dark Magic pwnage.

Secondly, the first thing Lanayru tells us is that they gave power equally to those among the light. Why would they even bring that up if the Twili had nothing to do with it? Simple, because they did.

Not sure what you mean here... can you elaborate? Anyway, I already gave my interpretation of that line: that the Gods gave equal right to the Triforce to all the creatures in their world of Hyrule (the world of Light as it is often called).

The fact that Ganondorf was allowed to have the same power that the gods had so adamantly prevented anyone from having before made Ganondorf believe he was chosen.

But for what reason was he?

I don't remember anything ever saying that the Triforce was there so anyone could get it if they felt like it. In fact, the ALttP manual in Japan
...
Plus, why would they have sealed Ganondorf and Hyrule away in TWW's backstory
...
Plus, why would the Triforce split on anyone without a righteous, balanced heart if it was intended to be used by any old person from Hyrule?
...
they didn't let Ganondorf obtain the whole Triforce, they did give him the ToP after he grabbed the Triforce, something which they hadn't done for anyone else.

Did it not say the triforce was left in the Sacred Realm for someone to claim it?
But then I ask, why did they not take the triforce of Power away from him rather than just sealing him? Ganondorf said it himself, at the end of TWW, with the whole Triforce in his hands, the Gods would have no choice but to descend and grant his wish. They wouldn't stop him.
As for the balance and splitting, it splits on those who don't have a heart balanced among the three forces, regardless of their being righteous or not; and actually I don't think that was the Gods' decision, but just the way the Triforce is. It watches your heart and if not in balance, only the part you believe the most in remains.

They were asking for it, though, if they weren't even from the light world in the first place, as you say.

I agree. But they can still be bitter about it. Remember what Zant laments about the changes his people went through living in Twilight. The traits they lost and that he longs for are not all positive "In the shadows we regressed, so much so that we soon knew neither anger nor
hatred...nor even the faintest bloom of desire." Zant however seems to believe that this is the way they should be. Hateful conquerors.

As I mentioned in a topic a while ago, that wound may not have been as severe as you think.

It's the only vulnerable weakspot wile he is in beastform. I'd call that pretty severe.

He could have turned into Ganon at that time and tossed Link off the tower or any number of things. Plus, if he were just faking it he wouldn't have let Zelda go.
...
Also, explain to me why he's coughing on blood, collapsing, and "using the last bit of his magic" to bury everyone in the tower and then suddenly reappear seeming completely fine and suddenly having glowing, pupiless eyes?

Undoubtedly, after the fight with Link, he was seriously weakened and on the moment he could not change into Ganon. He was collapsed, seemingly passed out on the ground. In TP however he's standing and looking fierce. Also, I doubt before being captured he had put up a fight like the one against Link in OoT, if anything because I can't imagine the Sages deflecting his balls of energy back at him
So yeah, that's another reason I don't think he had the power of the Gods until that moment, becuase if he could put up as much of a fight as in OoT, then chaining him to that stone would have been rather unlikely for the Sages to accomplish.

I sort of answered pieces of this in the last snippet but here's another thing: why would she say he couldn't control the power of the gods if he could? We don't even see him appear to use the ToP until he's been buried under the tower, the only time before that in which we had seen him with the crest on his hand was when the Triforce was "combining into one again".

Well, he seemingly uses it to shoo off Navi... but, and you may disagree on this, I think even in minimal part, when one has a triforce part they are always using it. Ganodnorf says he underestimated Link, then corrects himself and says it was the Triforce... but Link didn't even know he had the Triforce until moments before. Similarly, in games like LoZ and TWW, you need to collect the Triforce to fight the final enemy, but then you scarcely sem to use it. So you see, I think when a character has a Triforce part (or its power) he/she does everything using it. Having the ToC constantly increases Link's willpower, having the ToW makes Zelda wiser and having the ToP gives Ganon a stats boost (necessary to survive that wound and break those chains).

Listen carefully, this time. IT'S AN INCONSISTENCY NO MATTER HOW YOU EXPLAIN IT, UNLESS YOU DECIDE GANONDORF HAD ALREADY BEEN CAPTURED BY THE TIME OF MM! IF HE HAD THE TRIFORCE, LINK WOULD HAVE WORRIED, AND IF HE DIDN'T, HE WOULD HAVE MURDERED LINK BEFORE HE LEFT HYRULE!

So essentially, what you are saying is "We can't explain what we see in the games, it makes no sense". Right? Why are you debating about their story then?
Anyway, I'd rather not just dismiss the fundamental plot of MM (Link leaving with the ocarina undisturbed) as an inconsistency but believe Ganon's eye on him wasn't all that attentive. besides, now that I think about it, when did Ganon begin to keep an eye on Link? Probably after noticing him in the window as Zelda tells Link to spy on him. Conveniently, that may never have happened if Link came back to before first talking to Zelda as I believe is the case.

When I first beat OoT, I didn't think she was looking at Ganondorf at all. And it was my first, so no other games were influencing my thoughts on that.
But Ganondorf still was around, searching for the Triforce, in your theory. That's a crappy result because Ganondorf could've still gotten the Triforce. Then he was "given the Triforces power", which left him as still a threat

Well, I did think of him *shrugs*
And no, he couldn't without the Ocarina (not to mention someone to take out the master Sword). And without it, he was unable to rule Hyrule for seven years as in the adult timeline.
Everything would have come to an end with his execution by the Sages, but the Gods had different, inscrutable plans.

With a split timeline, it's very unlikely that the ToC that is in TWW split when Link went back in time.

Ah, now I understand what you meant to tell me about the single timeline (and TP's retcons). I switched from single to split timeline upon playing TWW, so I always viewed the game as belonging to either adult or child timeline. Thereofre TP didn't really change my point of view on it.
Anyway, like I said above, having two Triforces of Courage exist for a brief time may not be very pretty, but explains all possible contradictions without need of retcons. And that works for me.

Why, because I'm going by the obvious, and not making up baseless stuff about the ToC and the Twili just so it suits my theory?
...
And don't act as though it's a "friendly debate" and then sarcastly insult me.

No, it was mostly because of your denying my points without actually bringing up the "obvious" reasons for it (maybe you thought they were -too- obvious to type them out? I could understand that)
Anyway, I believe there has been a small series of misunderstandings between us. Therefore I, for my part, apologize for any offense you've felt from my replies.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 29 March 2007 - 08:48 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Ganon's only interest would be to kill them, so that their connections are severed (the way his ends up upon his death) since he would have no chance of taking their power has chosen of the Gods the way he did in TWW.

Question: Why do you think he possessed Zelda?

As for the balance and splitting, it splits on those who don't have a heart balanced among the three forces, regardless of their being righteous or not; and actually I don't think that was the Gods' decision, but just the way the Triforce is. It watches your heart and if not in balance, only the part you believe the most in remains.

Wouldn't the laws of the Triforce have been decided by the goddesses, because they made it and stuff?

On a related note, I agree with you that Ganondorf receiving his ToP was an act of destiny orchestrated by the gods (I basically see Ganny as a "test" of sorts for the Hylians) but I believe it happened only when he touched the Triforce. No magic get-it-for-free bonus during TP, in other words.

Also, I doubt before being captured he had put up a fight like the one against Link in OoT, if anything because I can't imagine the Sages deflecting his balls of energy back at him

If they can give him a wound that does not heal even when we KNOW he has the power of the ToP... I assume they can do that as well. They have the power of light, and that's what you need to defeat Ganondorf. Or so I'm told.

Having the ToC constantly increases Link's willpower, having the ToW makes Zelda wiser and having the ToP gives Ganon a stats boost (necessary to survive that wound and break those chains).

Or it transforms them into their sexy alter-egos. And maybe some magic stuff too. I could go either way.


Just a few things I wanted to comment on.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 29 March 2007 - 07:02 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

Question: Why do you think he possessed Zelda?

I honestly dunno... but in the end nothing came of it. Zelda got her body back and she still had her power as chosen by the Gods.

Wouldn't the laws of the Triforce have been decided by the goddesses, because they made it and stuff?

Yeah, but they didn't decide them on the moment Ganondorf got to it. They were decided when it was made, and for any who'd touch it, good or evil.

If they can give him a wound that does not heal even when we KNOW he has the power of the ToP... I assume they can do that as well. They have the power of light, and that's what you need to defeat Ganondorf. Or so I'm told.

Well then why banish him rather than continuing to fight and kill him if they had all they needed? Got scared?

Or it transforms them into their sexy alter-egos. And maybe some magic stuff too. I could go either way.

That too I suppose

Edited by Duke Serkol, 29 March 2007 - 07:16 PM.

[FDL]

Yes but the problem is that often times you just told me "I can't prove you wrong but I just don't think you're right".

Be fair here, you're doing the same things. I've given many perfectly valid reasons as to why I think TP works with my interpretation of the end of OoT and the whole of TP, but you haven't really done anything that's "proven me wrong". You've brought up some good points, but nothing you've said has made me change my mind. I'm not just pretending that I don't agree with you're theory, I honestly don't.

Which I'm okay with, just please don't treat me like I'm speaking utter nonsense because of it.

I don't think you are speaking nonsense, my comment was more to explain to you why I haven't been "proving you wrong". Like, it's just something that I almost took for granted as being the general belief of everyone, and thus I find it hard to argue with you over it. But I still do not think that it works, because the two timelines just seem so disconnected.

Like I said, that's one of the reasons I believe this is not a power akin to the of the Triforce but a connection to the Triforce itself. Essentially they both would have the power of the Triforce of Courage, only the Link in OoT actually had the Triforce itself within him while that of TP does not.

But it's still not the same thing. I just think that the fact that one game ends with Link having the ToC and the next game begins with a new Link having something which is said to be the very thing the ancient hero had is basically confirmation that the Triforce was split. Plus, I think that the actions of Ganondorf/Zant's minions basically proves that it was the real thing. If Ganondorf was not searching for the Triforce then I doubt the Shadow Messenger would have gone through the trouble of dragging Link all the way to the castle. And I know you could say Ganondorf was just trying to get Link out of the way, but he could've told his minions to kill the bearer of the "power" rather than kidnap him.

Ah that! Yes, that is "more complicated than it seems reasonable" we could say. Nonetheless, it would explain all the apparent inconsistencies in one fell swoop. Why Link has the Triforce mark and Zelda doesn't at the end of OoT, why Ganondorf did not have the power to break free until getting stabbed, why the KoRL says Link lost the ToC upon leaving the land behind. It all works out.

But it doesn't explain why all this goes against the little we do know about time in the Zelda series. It's basically needlessly complicated, because aside from the KoRL quote which means nothing, it works out fine without needless complications. Sometimes in fantsay stories they retcon stuff. This is one of those times. That's not even an insane rant, almost everyone agrees that that is a retcon.

Oh dear, this is embarassing... I honestly wasn't thinking about your signature's timeline (swear on the Triforce!). I just meant that as an example of how some things in Zelda may appear obvious to some and unlikely to others.
I'll assume you took that as a zing and accept any come backs (or general anger) in the rest of your reply without complaints, in the interest of getting along

Honestly, I don't care. But I felt I had to bring it up just in case you were trying to "zing" me.

That's right, but I'm not making characters say things they are not saying by that. Ganondorf is saying he's chosen, the sages said he was chosen... so he was, as far as I'm concerned.

But we have to look at the characters and what they would say. Ganondorf, I think, is not a good source of information because he's an evil liar. But still, I've explained, in a pretty good and detailed way if I do say so my self, why Ganondorf believes he was chosen. And it basically makes everything fall into place far more easily(i.e. why he no longer was trying to get into the Sacred Realm). As for the sages, they don't exactly say that. They say he "had been blessed with the chosen power of the gods", not that he was actually chosen. Also, they say that he "had been" blessed, they do not say that he was at that time. They don't even suggest it, they more suggest that he had obtained it at some point. Plus, it's far more inconsistent with the other games in the series and the rest of the game itself if they gods randomly decided to give the incarnation of evil the Triforce, or it's power. Plus, we don't have to give the Master Sword any new, random powers at the end of OoT to make it work.

And why would the Gods have that sword created if they intended to deal personally with evil ones who would claim the Triforce? Simple because they won't. The Triforce was left for anybody in Hyrule to claim. The Master Sword was only created so that the rest of Hyrule could protect itself if the person taking it was evil, but the gods wouldn't intervene themselves.

That's basically my point, though. Ganondorf was not chosen, he merely found his way into the Sacred Realm and claimed the Triforce(of Power) for his own. He had probably heard of the Twili banishment and in the back of his mind he always worried about the same thing happening to him. But it did not, and thus he deluded himself into believing he was chosen by the gods(which he was in a way, because the ToP chose him when he grabbed the Triforce). But the basis of your theory is that the reasoning for the Twili being banished was that they were foreigners. It could very well be that the goddesses were no longer paying attention to Hyrule, and thus accidently let Ganondorf into the SR. Or because he was sneakier. But honestly, the Triforce is not meant to be taken by anyone. That's true, it's not only some bizzare form of bigotry.

It's sort of like the right of self determination God grants to humans. They gave them the Triforce and the Master Sword, the rest (whether to create a world of peace and harmony or hatred and chaos) is up to them.

No, because that's what the light spirits are. They were left there to do the bidding of the goddesses, as Lanayru says. The fact that they weren't able to stop Ganondorf is why he believes he's chosen.

The Interlopers however (being Interlopers) are not part of the deal/plan and therefore were stopped.

No indication of that, though. They appeared among those living in the light, so we know they were light-worlders already.

Actually that's an interesting point you bring up: in OoT and TWW Ganon was obsessed with taking Link and Zelda's Triforce parts. That doesn't seem the case judging by his dialogues in TP. That too, I think, helps the connection to the Triforce theory. If they don't have the actual Triforce parts, Ganon's only interest would be to kill them, so that their connections are severed (the way his ends up upon his death) since he would have no chance of taking their power has chosen of the Gods the way he did in TWW.

See above. He wouldn't have gone out of his way to get Link back to the castle if he wanted him dead. And he probably wouldn't have ordered the Bulblin King to capture the kids if he didn't want something. I mean, I doubt that they were just randomly kidnapping kids, because they wouldn't have come back again after leaving them to die.

That it is, but it explains the different treatment they get from the Gods compared to Ganondorf. And even if they are not from another world, the bottom line is that for any reason, the Gods do discriminate between them and Ganondorf (stopping them but not him). So it doesn't make a big difference to the whol picture.
And appeared is the key word there. As in "appeared from where?"

I've explained multiple reasons why they possibly did so. As for the "appeared from where" comment, they appeared among the people living on the light, silly! It says it right there. Now this is just going through semantics, you know what it says, and you know what the way they phrase it implies. Seriously, now you just seem to be going by the most convoluted reasoning for the sake of it.

That would be a pretty good point, but that's not when the Interlopers stepped in. When the Light Spirit says that, we are shown the people of Hyrule fighting and killing each other. Then as a victor as emerged and is making a mad dash for the Triforce Ganondorf style... BAM, Interlopers in the face and Dark Magic pwnage.

We can't go by the visuals of that scene, I think. There is far too much vague, symbolic stuff to use it in a debate. Hell, I still don't understand why the interlopers are represented by Dark Link's, why the Link representation suddenly is wearing his tunic, and why the Twili transform into Link after they kill him.

Not sure what you mean here... can you elaborate? Anyway, I already gave my interpretation of that line: that the Gods gave equal right to the Triforce to all the creatures in their world of Hyrule (the world of Light as it is often called).

It says power, though.

But for what reason was he?

There's many possibilities. I've listed several.

Did it not say the triforce was left in the Sacred Realm for someone to claim it?
But then I ask, why did they not take the triforce of Power away from him rather than just sealing him? Ganondorf said it himself, at the end of TWW, with the whole Triforce in his hands, the Gods would have no choice but to descend and grant his wish. They wouldn't stop him.

Because they have no choice by then. But before that, they tried to stop him through any means neccesary. Why do you think the two other Triforce pieces are in the above world while they sealed Ganondorf in Hyrule? Because they don't want him to have it.

As for the balance and splitting, it splits on those who don't have a heart balanced among the three forces, regardless of their being righteous or not; and actually I don't think that was the Gods' decision, but just the way the Triforce is. It watches your heart and if not in balance, only the part you believe the most in remains.

They made the Triforce. I'm sorry that I seem like such a jerk, but I don't think that "That's the way it was" suffices as an answer.

I agree. But they can still be bitter about it. Remember what Zant laments about the changes his people went through living in Twilight. The traits they lost and that he longs for are not all positive "In the shadows we regressed, so much so that we soon knew neither anger nor
hatred...nor even the faintest bloom of desire." Zant however seems to believe that this is the way they should be. Hateful conquerors.

But they still could have just put them back intheir own world. And explain again why they somehow knew about the Triforce if they lived in another world?

It's the only vulnerable weakspot wile he is in beastform. I'd call that pretty severe.

Plus the giant glowy thing on his head.

Undoubtedly, after the fight with Link, he was seriously weakened and on the moment he could not change into Ganon. He was collapsed, seemingly passed out on the ground. In TP however he's standing and looking fierce. Also, I doubt before being captured he had put up a fight like the one against Link in OoT, if anything because I can't imagine the Sages deflecting his balls of energy back at him

He demonstrates the ability to hurl those energy balls before he even gets the Triforce in OoT, so they'd basically have to do that. They have cool light swords which they can control without hands anyway, I think they could temporarliy someone who didn't have full control over the ToP. Also, we don't know who subdued him.

[FDL]

So yeah, that's another reason I don't think he had the power of the Gods until that moment, becuase if he could put up as much of a fight as in OoT, then chaining him to that stone would have been rather unlikely for the Sages to accomplish.

But you don't know how he was subdued. While, the finishing blow on Ganondorf appears to require the Master Sword, that doesn't mean he can't be temporarily defeated b something else. And again, OoT seems to suggest that Ganondorf cannot control the Triforce fully at all times.

Well, he seemingly uses it to shoo off Navi... but, and you may disagree on this, I think even in minimal part, when one has a triforce part they are always using it. Ganodnorf says he underestimated Link, then corrects himself and says it was the Triforce... but Link didn't even know he had the Triforce until moments before. Similarly, in games like LoZ and TWW, you need to collect the Triforce to fight the final enemy, but then you scarcely sem to use it. So you see, I think when a character has a Triforce part (or its power) he/she does everything using it. Having the ToC constantly increases Link's willpower, having the ToW makes Zelda wiser and having the ToP gives Ganon a stats boost (necessary to survive that wound and break those chains).

I agree and disagree. They do use it, but only in "minimal part". Most of the things they do is by their own power most of the time, however, and that's why it appears that it activates for Ganondorf only when he is near death.

So essentially, what you are saying is "We can't explain what we see in the games, it makes no sense". Right? Why are you debating about their story then?
Anyway, I'd rather not just dismiss the fundamental plot of MM (Link leaving with the ocarina undisturbed) as an inconsistency but believe Ganon's eye on him wasn't all that attentive. besides, now that I think about it, when did Ganon begin to keep an eye on Link? Probably after noticing him in the window as Zelda tells Link to spy on him. Conveniently, that may never have happened if Link came back to before first talking to Zelda as I believe is the case.

and

Well, I did think of him *shrugs*
And no, he couldn't without the Ocarina (not to mention someone to take out the master Sword). And without it, he was unable to rule Hyrule for seven years as in the adult timeline.

Fine, we'll keep this up. He was spying on Zelda already and we know that by the time Link left he and Zelda had grown close. He would know of Link by that time, and he would know the whereabouts of the Ocarina of Time. Plus, the flashback in MM is all wrong. It doesn't feel like a "Keep this from Ganondorf by any means necessary" kind of scene, it's much more nice and peaceful seeming and everything.

Everything would have come to an end with his execution by the Sages, but the Gods had different, inscrutable plans.

No, they didn't. There's no reason for them to do that, and it in fact goes against everything they have done in the other games. Besides no one ther than Ganondorf actually says he's been chosen by the gods, just that he has their power. Link, on the other hand, is apparently the chosen one. The gods spoken of in the rest of the games would not do that, even if they're "bored" as some people believe. In every example, they have tried to deny Ganondorf.

Ah, now I understand what you meant to tell me about the single timeline (and TP's retcons). Well, like I said above, having two Triforces of Courage exist for a brief time may not be very pretty, but explains all possible contradictions without need of retcons. And that works for me.

But I believe it was intended to be retconned.

No, it was mostly because of your denying my points without actually bringing up the "obvious" reasons for it (maybe you thought they were -too- obvious to type them out? I could understand that)
Anyway, I believe there has been a small series of misunderstandings between us. Therefore I, for my part, apologize for any offense you've felt from my replies.

Honestly, I'm kinda exhausted, I've had a rough week, and I'm not going to get into what these obvious things are right now. But I will soon. When you read this over, keep in mind that I'm exhausted. There are some things I probably could argue better were I in top argument form.

On a related note, I agree with you that Ganondorf receiving his ToP was an act of destiny orchestrated by the gods (I basically see Ganny as a "test" of sorts for the Hylians) but I believe it happened only when he touched the Triforce. No magic get-it-for-free bonus during TP, in other words.

Yeah, actually, that could be another explanation as to why the light spirits didn't stop him. Or a combination of a couple of these things.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 29 March 2007 - 09:06 PM.

[The Missing Link]

But are they? The games that have been developed since OoT to continue off from it, TWW and TP, are based on the story and in game events of OoT, and done largely by the same team of people (so it's not like they don't know what was the intention). Therefore we can't tell for sure but it's more than possible that the old meaning and the new meaning are essentially the very same.

Well, let's talk about this here.

(From Wind Waker)
KING OF RED LIONS
Link, do you know the legend of the Hero of Time? Once long ago, he defeated Ganon and brought peace to the Kingdom of Hyrule... A piece of the Triforce was given to the Hero of Time and he kept it safe, much as Zelda kept hers. That sacred piece is known as the Triforce of Courage. When the Hero of Time was called to embark on another journey and left the land of
Hyrule, he was separated from the elements that made him a hero.

Let us ask ourselves the following question: Upon what journey did the Hero of Time embark, therefore making the Triforce of Courage to split?

If you look at the AST (Aonuma Standard Split) timeline fragment which includes Wind Waker, you've got OoT --> WW. Okay... Link doesn't exist beyond the end of OoT; Zelda sent him back, as we all know. So was this journey him returning through time? It would have to be; there's nothing else. However, that doesn't seem like a "journey" that Link would "embark" upon. However, if you look at things from the standard linearist perspective (before TP came out), where you've got something like OoT --> MM --> WW, and this makes perfect sense. We know Link had the Triforce of Courage in the final scene of OoT... and then MM happened, which would be the journey upon which the Hero of Time embarked... and then WW fits snugly after that.

I'm going to make a bold claim, and you can disagree if you like. It seems quite strong that Wind Waker referred to Majora's Mask in the above quoted statement. However, with the introduction of the AST, this has changed considerably. MM cannot be referred to, and so the best interpretation we can actually muster is that the journey was Zelda sending Link back through time.

Now you might say that the old linear timeline doesn't really provide an avenue for all of the old Miyamoto games. However, neither does the AST, really. It has the same faults as does the old linear pre-TP timeline. I'd reckon to say that the whole notion of the timeline--as hinted by TSA's off-the-record conversation--was completely reinterpreted from a linearist perspective to a parallel perspective, thus retconning that scene with the KoRL (among many others) without explicitly replacing it with a new and improved one. In short, they reinterpreted the entire series and tried to come as close to the canon as they possibly could.

Granted, I'm working off an assumption here, and so I cannot guarantee that I'm right. Until Aonuma states his thought process at every point in the series for us, we can never know for certain. But you have to admit that this argument at least sounds rather plausible. If this is true, then that Triforce of Courage at the end of Ocarina takes on a very different role now. It originally was the Triforce of Courage brought back from the future (potentially rewriting history and sealing Ganondorf on the backswing through time--Sorry, Fyxe, but I do believe this is what was intended originally!) and then scattered after Majora... and now it has to be that Ganondorf has a completely separate story this time. He did something off-screen that we don't know about before, that we hadn't considered before.

While it may have been largely the same team the developed each of the games in turn (I'm not going to go through credits to validate or disprove this claim, but there is often a significant turnover rate in video game companies, so I'm dubious), I don't think that Aonuma or Miyamoto wouldn't hesitate to change direction or do something very different at some point later on in the series. (Think about the Moon Pearl. It's a unique item in LttP; they're a dime a dozen in FSA.)

I've seen so many interpretaion of that ending alone and I myself have adopted several over the years... so I hafta beg to differ

As I said, this is all my opinion, and I'm not telling people what to think here. I'm merely pointing this as a very strong candidate theory for what's going on.

It could be, but it's based on the assumption that they were not planning ahead, which may or may not be true (and again, even if it was, their "re-interpretation" ought to be based on what we got).

This is true as well, and I will admit it. Timeline can be proactive, provided the creators leave holes in the series for themselves to fill in later, and I do believe that they were able to exploit this for Majora's Mask and even Wind Waker. It fits too nicely. However, Twilight Princess seemed to ruin what they had going for them, and now the timeline--even the split timeline--seems to be suffering from some sort of fatal illness. I still think there's a significant change in the winds that occurred between Waker and Twilight that made their proactiveness insufficient to carry through all this way, which forced them to break the continuing story that they had going; that's when they had to use their Drumpf card and split two games (Majora and Waker) that were originally intended to function as prequel/sequel.

But yes, you've hit the nail on the head. We can't be sure who's right in this case. I don't have an Aonuma quote to back me up. But I'll come to a deal with you. Let's agree to disagree, telling each other that, well, yeah, we've both got some decent points, and each idea is clearly a possibility. And then we'll leave it at that. Does that sound fair?

Edited by The Missing Link, 30 March 2007 - 12:29 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

I honestly dunno... but in the end nothing came of it. Zelda got her body back and she still had her power as chosen by the Gods.

Nothing ever comes of Ganondorf schemes. However, he still makes it pretty obvious he did it to get her power, which he apparently has while possessing her.

Yeah, but they didn't decide them on the moment Ganondorf got to it. They were decided when it was made, and for any who'd touch it, good or evil.

If they are the gods, and control fate like they are said to do, then they’d know Ganondorf would get the Triforce eventually. I feel confident in assuming that rule was made specifically for people like him.

Well then why banish him rather than continuing to fight and kill him if they had all they needed? Got scared?

Yeah. When Ganny killed the Water Sage, it is pretty obvious the other kinda freaked and improvised with the whole banishment thingy.

Yeah, actually, that could be another explanation as to why the light spirits didn't stop him. Or a combination of a couple of these things.

I don’t quite think so. This is the way of the goddesses, not their servants. More likely they didn't stop Ganondorf because he would just have pwned them like Zant did Lanayru. In fact, the light spirits are kinda weak, because only takes a single Shadow Assasin to defeat them...

[FDL]

Well, let's talk about this here.

(From Wind Waker)
KING OF RED LIONS
Link, do you know the legend of the Hero of Time? Once long ago, he defeated Ganon and brought peace to the Kingdom of Hyrule... A piece of the Triforce was given to the Hero of Time and he kept it safe, much as Zelda kept hers. That sacred piece is known as the Triforce of Courage. When the Hero of Time was called to embark on another journey and left the land of
Hyrule, he was separated from the elements that made him a hero.

Let us ask ourselves the following question: Upon what journey did the Hero of Time embark, therefore making the Triforce of Courage to split?

If you look at the AST (Aonuma Standard Split) timeline fragment which includes Wind Waker, you've got OoT --> WW. Okay... Link doesn't exist beyond the end of OoT; Zelda sent him back, as we all know. So was this journey him returning through time? It would have to be; there's nothing else. However, that doesn't seem like a "journey" that Link would "embark" upon. However, if you look at things from the standard linearist perspective (before TP came out), where you've got something like OoT --> MM --> WW, and this makes perfect sense. We know Link had the Triforce of Courage in the final scene of OoT... and then MM happened, which would be the journey upon which the Hero of Time embarked... and then WW fits snugly after that.

I'm going to make a bold claim, and you can disagree if you like. It seems quite strong that Wind Waker referred to Majora's Mask in the above quoted statement. However, with the introduction of the AST, this has changed considerably. MM cannot be referred to, and so the best interpretation we can actually muster is that the journey was Zelda sending Link back through time.

Now you might say that the old linear timeline doesn't really provide an avenue for all of the old Miyamoto games. However, neither does the AST, really. It has the same faults as does the old linear pre-TP timeline. I'd reckon to say that the whole notion of the timeline--as hinted by TSA's off-the-record conversation--was completely reinterpreted from a linearist perspective to a parallel perspective, thus retconning that scene with the KoRL (among many others) without explicitly replacing it with a new and improved one. In short, they reinterpreted the entire series and tried to come as close to the canon as they possibly could.

Granted, I'm working off an assumption here, and so I cannot guarantee that I'm right. Until Aonuma states his thought process at every point in the series for us, we can never know for certain. But you have to admit that this argument at least sounds rather plausible. If this is true, then that Triforce of Courage at the end of Ocarina takes on a very different role now. It originally was the Triforce of Courage brought back from the future (potentially rewriting history and sealing Ganondorf on the backswing through time--Sorry, Fyxe, but I do believe this is what was intended originally!) and then scattered after Majora... and now it has to be that Ganondorf has a completely separate story this time. He did something off-screen that we don't know about before, that we hadn't considered before.

While it may have been largely the same team the developed each of the games in turn (I'm not going to go through credits to validate or disprove this claim, but there is often a significant turnover rate in video game companies, so I'm dubious), I don't think that Aonuma or Miyamoto wouldn't hesitate to change direction or do something very different at some point later on in the series. (Think about the Moon Pearl. It's a unique item in LttP; they're a dime a dozen in FSA.)
As I said, this is all my opinion, and I'm not telling people what to think here. I'm merely pointing this as a very strong candidate theory for what's going on.
This is true as well, and I will admit it. Timeline can be proactive, provided the creators leave holes in the series for themselves to fill in later, and I do believe that they were able to exploit this for Majora's Mask and even Wind Waker. It fits too nicely. However, Twilight Princess seemed to ruin what they had going for them, and now the timeline--even the split timeline--seems to be suffering from some sort of fatal illness. I still think there's a significant change in the winds that occurred between Waker and Twilight that made their proactiveness insufficient to carry through all this way, which forced them to break the continuing story that they had going; that's when they had to use their Drumpf card and split two games (Majora and Waker) that were originally intended to function as prequel/sequel.

That about sums up what I think is intended as well. I think that the MM references were indirectly retconned away. But I think that if TSA is telling the truth and if TP had been in the adult timeline that things would have been different. Honestly, I do believe TSA. I think that they didn't want to have a tragic Zelda ending, I guess you could say they chickened out, and they decided they wanted Hyrule to be okay at the end of TP. However, they knew that the fans would get mad about a game in between OoT and TWW in which Ganondorf was a character but there wasn't a flood and so they decided to use the child timeline instead. I believe that before this, Aonuma's games and Miyamoto's games would be divided by the split, and there would be no overlap. This changed with TP. As much as I enjoyed TP and it's story, I have to say, I'm really interested in the idea of a flood game.

I don’t quite think so. This is the way of the goddesses, not their servants. More likely they didn't stop Ganondorf because he would just have pwned them like Zant did Lanayru. In fact, the light spirits are kinda weak, because only takes a single Shadow Assasin to defeat them...

Eh, that's true. Honestly, I don't think the full details matter, I think the main point is that the gods had prevented everyone before Ganondorf from getting the Triforce and this made him believe he was truely chosen when he was allowed to. I mean, in most timelines, OoT was the first time the Triforce left the Sacred Realm so it's a big deal. Plus, I doubt they would have introduced the idea of the Twili going after the Triforce, with the same wording as what is said about Ganondorf later on no less, if they didn't intend parallelism between the two stories.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 30 March 2007 - 08:55 AM.

[Fyxe]

In fact, the light spirits are kinda weak, because only takes a single Shadow Assasin to defeat them...

And an army of Shadow Insects and presumably Zant himself. The Shadow Assassins don't defeat the Light Spirits, they just watch over the already weakened Light Spirits, as far as I can tell.

Edited by Fyxe, 30 March 2007 - 06:52 PM.

[FDL]

Actually, the Shadow Assasins turn into the Shadow Insects. In the scene in which we see Faron attacked by the Shaow Assassins we see the shadows indicating that the insects are digging through the ground pop out soon after they steal it's light. Though I do think that something about Zelda abdicating the throne may have made the light spirits vulnerable somehow.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 30 March 2007 - 06:56 PM.

[Fyxe]

Hm, these are cutscenes I don't remember too well. I don't remember the Shadow Assassins turning into the insects at all.

[Chaltab]

Eh, that's true. Honestly, I don't think the full details matter, I think the main point is that the gods had prevented everyone before Ganondorf from getting the Triforce and this made him believe he was truely chosen when he was allowed to. I mean, in most timelines, OoT was the first time the Triforce left the Sacred Realm so it's a big deal. Plus, I doubt they would have introduced the idea of the Twili going after the Triforce, with the same wording as what is said about Ganondorf later on no less, if they didn't intend parallelism between the two stories.

Good point. That would explain why Ganondorf of Twilight Princess thinks he is fit to be the ruler of the Kingdom, rather than Ganondorf of TWW admitting that his desire was simple covetousness--Ganondorf of the Past was the only incarnation that learned of what happened to the Twili (as far as we know, at least.)

It also occurs to me, in an entirely unrelated thought, that if, as Aonuma says, Twilight Princess happens in the Child Timeline, and The Wind Waker happens in the Adult Timline, why does TP Link become a hero as an adult, yet the Wind Waker era remembers the Hero of Time as a child?

Edited by Chaltab, 30 March 2007 - 07:08 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

Be fair here, you're doing the same things. I've given many perfectly valid reasons as to why I think TP works with my interpretation of the end of OoT and the whole of TP, but you haven't really done anything that's "proven me wrong". You've brought up some good points, but nothing you've said has made me change my mind. I'm not just pretending that I don't agree with you're theory, I honestly don't. I don't think you are speaking nonsense, my comment was more to explain to you why I haven't been "proving you wrong".

There are fine points which can't really be determined without reasonable doubts. We are debating several of these. I'm sure you really disagree, and like I said, you're entitled to. Proof is, often times, not immune to interpretation. Like, long before TP came out I was sure the reason Zelda was looking through that window was because Ganondorf was still at large, but many (many) did not believe that was enough evidence. Anyway I understand your stance now, so let's put those misunderstanding behind us, shall we?

But it's still not the same thing. I just think that the fact that one game ends with Link having the ToC and the next game begins with a new Link having something which is said to be the very thing the ancient hero had is basically confirmation that the Triforce was split. Plus, I think that the actions of Ganondorf/Zant's minions basically proves that it was the real thing. If Ganondorf was not searching for the Triforce then I doubt the Shadow Messenger would have gone through the trouble of dragging Link all the way to the castle.

But the game doesn't seem to suggest the Triforce was passed down in Link's bloodline. At least, that's not the impression I got from it. It seemed to me that the new Link simply got it on birth (skipping inbetween generations, so to speak).
As for the Shadow Messenger, Link was an oddity, so why not capture him? And why would Zant/Ganondorf not have taken Zelda's Triforce if that was the case?

But it doesn't explain why all this goes against the little we do know about time in the Zelda series. It's basically needlessly complicated, because aside from the KoRL quote which means nothing, it works out fine without needless complications. Sometimes in fantsay stories they retcon stuff. This is one of those times. That's not even an insane rant, almost everyone agrees that that is a retcon.

Well, I don't have to agree. There was a time when the majority believed in a single timeline, and they have been proven wrong (besides if I was agreeing with you and the rest of the majority... what would we be debating about?). And I don't see how the quote means nothing. We can't just dismiss quotes when they are unconvenient to us.

But we have to look at the characters and what they would say. Ganondorf, I think, is not a good source of information because he's an evil liar. But still, I've explained, in a pretty good and detailed way if I do say so my self, why Ganondorf believes he was chosen. And it basically makes everything fall into place far more easily(i.e. why he no longer was trying to get into the Sacred Realm). As for the sages, they don't exactly say that. They say he "had been blessed with the chosen power of the gods", not that he was actually chosen. Also, they say that he "had been" blessed, they do not say that he was at that time. They don't even suggest it, they more suggest that he had obtained it at some point. Plus, it's far more inconsistent with the other games in the series and the rest of the game itself if they gods randomly decided to give the incarnation of evil the Triforce, or it's power. Plus, we don't have to give the Master Sword any new, random powers at the end of OoT to make it work.

Ganondorf a liar? He doesn't seem one to lie often, the only instances would be the allegiance to the King and the Agahnim ruse, if memory serves me right. But when he taunts you, he usually seems to be honest about it.
And what you've explained is why you believe he says he was chosen which I don't think is what the game seems to convey (that he did receive his power as though through a divine prank, being chosen by the gods for reasons inexplicable to even the sages). Just because this hasn't happened in past games doesn't mean it can't now.
Random powers of the Master Sword? What random powers?

It could very well be that the goddesses were no longer paying attention to Hyrule, and thus accidently let Ganondorf into the SR. Or because he was sneakier. But honestly, the Triforce is not meant to be taken by anyone. That's true, it's not only some bizzare form of bigotry.
No, because that's what the light spirits are. They were left there to do the bidding of the goddesses, as Lanayru says. The fact that they weren't able to stop Ganondorf is why he believes he's chosen.
No indication of that, though. They appeared among those living in the light, so we know they were light-worlders already.

The Gods are not watching over Hyrule but Link has been chosen by them?
Believe what you will. I'm tired and won't repeat the same things over and over.

wouldn't have ordered the Bulblin King to capture the kids if he didn't want something. I mean, I doubt that they were just randomly kidnapping kids, because they wouldn't have come back again after leaving them to die.

This interests me actually. Can you elaborate on it? (The leaving them to die part... and keeping Ilia)

I've explained multiple reasons why they possibly did so. As for the "appeared from where" comment, they appeared among the people living on the light, silly!

The Gods weren't looking? And the Interlopers interloped out of thin air?

We can't go by the visuals of that scene, I think. There is far too much vague, symbolic stuff to use it in a debate. Hell, I still don't understand why the interlopers are represented by Dark Link's, why the Link representation suddenly is wearing his tunic, and why the Twili transform into Link after they kill him. It says power, though.

I may be able to help with some of that, if you'd like. I believe the interlopers are represented with Dark Links because Lanayru was using people in Link's memory as "actors". But Link had no experience of anything like the Interlopers, which would be a race of human beings (in the same way the Hylians or Wind Tribe are different races of humans) steeped in darkness (moreso than the Sheikah possibly). So the dark version of himself. The reason Link suddenly gets his tunic is because he has lost his innocence (portrayed by having him in farmboy clothes) and become a warrior. The interloper becoming colored I'm not completely sure, but I think that was just Link's point of view within the vision switching over (since his previous point of view got zapped into nothingness)
And yes, it says they were given equal power. The Triforce (whether a connection or the thing itself) is always referred as power of the Gods in the game.

Because they have no choice by then. But before that, they tried to stop him through any means neccesary. Why do you think the two other Triforce pieces are in the above world while they sealed Ganondorf in Hyrule? Because they don't want him to have it.

I'm not sure where the Triforce of Courage is in TWW. You have to fish for it. For what we know it could be underwater near the mountaintops or in Hyrule itself. And the other part was handled by the royal family, not the Gods.

They made the Triforce. I'm sorry that I seem like such a jerk, but I don't think that "That's the way it was" suffices as an answer.

Well then I'm sorry but I don't care

But they still could have just put them back intheir own world. And explain again why they somehow knew about the Triforce if they lived in another world?

Wouldn't have thaught them much though. The Interlopers actually lost many of their negative traits by living in Twilight. And we know travel between worlds is possible in Zelda. Legends can travel too.

Plus the giant glowy thing on his head.
He demonstrates the ability to hurl those energy balls before he even gets the Triforce in OoT, so they'd basically have to do that.

Point conceded (though it's a darkball)
See? I can admit it when I'm plain wrong

He was spying on Zelda already and we know that by the time Link left he and Zelda had grown close. He would know of Link by that time, and he would know the whereabouts of the Ocarina of Time. Plus, the flashback in MM is all wrong. It doesn't feel like a "Keep this from Ganondorf by any means necessary" kind of scene, it's much more nice and peaceful seeming and everything.

Not necessarily. Link might be sneaky about it, as you suggest for Ganon
And the MM flashback, that could be where the artistic "we have no reason to make the player think of Ganon" thing you and TML have been going for may come in.

There's no reason for them to do that, and it in fact goes against everything they have done in the other games.

Gods are mysterious and entitled to put their people through hardships. I won't debate this any further.

Honestly, I'm kinda exhausted, I've had a rough week

Ah, I understand. I'm finally having a brief period of rest after one such time. I suppose I should appreciate your effort with these already long replies. And as a matter of fact, I do: this debate actually helped me fine tune some points of my theory I had overlooked. Thanks.

However, if you look at things from the standard linearist perspective (before TP came out), where you've got something like OoT --> MM --> WW, and this makes perfect sense.

Well, TWW is the game that, with its ending, persuaded me of the split timeline. So I've always dealt with it as a game in a different timeline than MM. It's nothing new to me
Naturally, programmers CAN retcon past games and will sometimes do so (so yes, your argument IS plausible). But this issue I can resolve without retconning so I will. Besides, it's not much of a leap of faith to go from "Triforce going back to it's proper place" to "Triforce going back to its proper place and time".
Of course you could argue that this influences my interpretation of TP, but that's not really the case. I believe they don't have the physical Triforce parts in TP because of the game's ending.

now it has to be that Ganondorf has a completely separate story this time. He did something off-screen that we don't know about before, that we hadn't considered before.

I don't really think that it has to be. In TP by all means it looks to me that he got it as an act of divine intervention, and that doesn't even cause any retcon. So...

Timeline can be proactive, provided the creators leave holes in the series for themselves to fill in later, and I do believe that they were able to exploit this for Majora's Mask and even Wind Waker. It fits too nicely. However, Twilight Princess seemed to ruin what they had going for them, and now the timeline--even the split timeline--seems to be suffering from some sort of fatal illness.

That's not my impression at all though. To me, the timeline has not been this healthy and devoid of plot holes since OoT ended with Ganondorf sealed with only Power.

But I'll come to a deal with you. Let's agree to disagree, telling each other that, well, yeah, we've both got some decent points, and each idea is clearly a possibility. And then we'll leave it at that. Does that sound fair?

Of course

I'd like to add more but both the board and I are exhausted (like FDL )

Edited by Duke Serkol, 30 March 2007 - 07:21 PM.

[FDL]

Hm, these are cutscenes I don't remember too well. I don't remember the Shadow Assassins turning into the insects at all.

Well it doesn't show it explicitly but it shows them go in and the light disappears and then we see them dig out of the area so take that as you will.

Good point. That would explain why Ganondorf of Twilight Princess thinks he is fit to be the ruler of the Kingdom, rather than Ganondorf of TWW admitting that his desire was simple covetousness--Ganondorf of the Past was the only incarnation that learned of what happened to the Twili (as far as we know, at least.)

It also occurs to me, in an entirely unrelated thought, that if, as Aonuma says, Twilight Princess happens in the Child Timeline, and The Wind Waker happens in the Adult Timline, why does TP Link become a hero as an adult, yet the Wind Waker era remembers the Hero of Time as a child?

I noticed that too. In the adult timeline the succesor of the hero is a child, and vice versa. It's kind weird.

There are fine points which can't really be determined without reasonable doubts. We are debating several of these. I'm sure you really disagree, and like I said, you're entitled to. Proof is, often times, not immune to interpretation. Like, long before TP came out I was sure the reason Zelda was looking through that window was because Ganondorf was still at large, but many (many) did not believe that was enough evidence. Anyway I understand your stance now, so let's put those misunderstanding behind us, shall we?

Yep.

But the game doesn't seem to suggest the Triforce was passed down in Link's bloodline. At least, that's not the impression I got from it. It seemed to me that the new Link simply got it on birth (skipping inbetween generations, so to speak).
As for the Shadow Messenger, Link was an oddity, so why not capture him? And why would Zant/Ganondorf not have taken Zelda's Triforce if that was the case?

Well, you're right, it doesn't say it explicitly so we can't be sure that it's passed down through his bloodline. But I think that the Hero's Spirit sort of hints that Link's bloodline is special, when it comes to courage in particular. This is kinda rude to say, but maybe you could look up the Hero's Spirit's dialogue? I don't feel like it, because pretty much all of his dialogue hints at various things involving the bloodline of the hero. And on a more insignificant note, apparently Link's family crest on his houses flag is the ToC, or something that resembles it.

As for the Shadow Assasins, they appear to be intelligent creatures but I don't get the "curiosity" vibe from the stuff involving them. I just don't think they'd go out of the way to bring someone from the Faron Woods all the way to the castle just because he was an oddity. Plus, there's something to be said about their hunting Link for the rest of the game I think. If he was just an oddity that may not have been a priority of Ganondorf and Zant's forces.

Well, I don't have to agree. There was a time when the majority believed in a single timeline, and they have been proven wrong (besides if I was agreeing with you and the rest of the majority... what would we be debating about?). And I don't see how the quote means nothing. We can't just dismiss quotes when they are unconvenient to us.

But it's not really a quote that tells us anything. And the whole state of the split timeline goes against it basically. If it wasn't so problematic, I wouldn't suggest forgetting about it. I mean, I could say that it says he was called away to another journey so it can't be MM because he wasn't called away from Hyrule, he chose to leave it.

Ganondorf a liar? He doesn't seem one to lie often, the only instances would be the allegiance to the King and the Agahnim ruse, if memory serves me right. But when he taunts you, he usually seems to be honest about it.
And what you've explained is why you believe he says he was chosen which I don't think is what the game seems to convey (that he did receive his power as though through a divine prank, being chosen by the gods for reasons inexplicable to even the sages). Just because this hasn't happened in past games doesn't mean it can't now.

Again, the sages never say he was chosen, just that he had the power of the gods. They also say that they were careless, which they wouldn't be if Ganondorf had just inexplicably gotten the Trfiorce or a similar power. As for the liar thing, I was just being stupid. He usually does tell the truth, it's just his logic and reasoning that is skewed. Hell, the logic in my idea of what he believes isn't even that weird anyway. If you were known to have commited a crime and you were still allowed to do it, you'd probably feel lucky or proud of yourself.

Random powers of the Master Sword? What random powers?

The stuff involving Link being sent back to his firts meeting with Zelda, except with stuff like the ToC.

The Gods are not watching over Hyrule but Link has been chosen by them?

I was just giving various reasons why may have been Ganondorf had been allowed to take the Triforce after they had gone to such lengths to protect the Triforce.

This interests me actually. Can you elaborate on it? (The leaving them to die part... and keeping Ilia)

This isn't a full part of a theory, I'm just bringing up the fact that they kidnap the children and are then "left to die" according to either Colin or Renado. Plus, it appears that they were specifically searching for people, and not randomly doing so. They make it a point to give us a view of everything from the Bulblin King's eyes, and show that he does not notice Link. Make of that waht you will, I could try to elaborate more if need be, though you may be better off just watching or looking up in the script the scenes in question.

The Gods weren't looking? And the Interlopers interloped out of thin air?

Interloper means "meddler". While you could take it to mean that they were meddling in the affairs of Hyrule when they didn't belong, it could just as easily mean that they were meddling with the SR, which they were. Although even if they were from another world, it wouldn't mean that was necessarily the gods reasoning for banishing them, but I honestly don't believe that was why they did it.

I may be able to help with some of that, if you'd like. I believe the interlopers are represented with Dark Links because Lanayru was using people in Link's memory as "actors". But Link had no experience of anything like the Interlopers, which would be a race of human beings (in the same way the Hylians or Wind Tribe are different races of humans) steeped in darkness (moreso than the Sheikah possibly). So the dark version of himself. The reason Link suddenly gets his tunic is because he has lost his innocence (portrayed by having him in farmboy clothes) and become a warrior. The interloper becoming colored I'm not completely sure, but I think that was just Link's point of view within the vision switching over (since his previous point of view got zapped into nothingness)

An interesting take on that. Some of it seems to make sense. But that last thing seems to me to mean something more than that, at the least.

I'm not sure where the Triforce of Courage is in TWW. You have to fish for it. For what we know it could be underwater near the mountaintops or in Hyrule itself.

The amount of detail that is payed to making the Great Sea appear separate to Hyrule makes me believe otherwise, though it's kinda irrelevant. My main point still stands.

Wouldn't have thaught them much though. The Interlopers actually lost many of their negative traits by living in Twilight. And we know travel between worlds is possible in Zelda. Legends can travel too.

But they could have made less of a point of making it appear through much of the dialogue to be a Hyrule/light world thing, rather than a battle between worlds.

Point conceded (though it's a darkball)

What's a darkball? The magic he uses on kid Link is the exact same kind he uses on adult Link, in appearance. The difference is in skill.

Not necessarily. Link might be sneaky about it, as you suggest for Ganon
And the MM flashback, that could be where the artistic "we have no reason to make the player think of Ganon" thing you and TML have been going for may come in.

That's true. I'm tired, again, so I may have to come back to this point.

Gods are mysterious and entitled to put their people through hardships. I won't debate this any further.

Definetly, but I'm going by what we do know of them. I'd expect something like this from Greek Gods, though. They were jerks.

Ah, I understand. I'm finally having a brief period of rest after one such time. I suppose I should appreciate your effort with these already long replies. And as a matter of fact, I do: this debate actually helped me fine tune some points of my theory I had overlooked. Thanks.

No prob, I'm just bringing it up so you'll give me the beneift of the doubt if I overlook something or I have an abundance of typos.

And I may get involved with your arguments with TML if I get up the will or the want to do so.


Edit: One final thing. In watching the ending of OoT again, are we even sure that Zelda does not have the Triforce on her hand? I though I say something, but her hand is against her mouth. And I don't know how to hack into stuff, so if that could somehow confirm or deny it I wouldn't know. Oh yeah, and we can see in the window that Ganondorf isn't there, whatever that's worth.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 30 March 2007 - 09:43 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Hm, these are cutscenes I don't remember too well. I don't remember the Shadow Assassins turning into the insects at all.

Beware...A shadow being...it approaches...

[A Shadow Assasin descends from the twilight portal, but Link defeats it]

O brave youth... I am one of four light spirits that protect Hyrule at the behest of the gods. I am Ordona.

The black beast you slayed was a shadow being. It had come to seize the power of light I wield.

The dark insects... They are the form taken by evil...once it has latched on to...our scattered light...

So, one assasin can do it. And they do become the insects.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 31 March 2007 - 07:02 AM.

[Fyxe]

So, one assasin can do it. And they do become the insects.

While it's possibly implied that they become insects... It's not said that one Assassin could do it. One could probably take some of the light, but not all of it.

[FDL]

How is it only possibly implied? They say that the Shadow Insects only take that form when they have stolen light, so that's how it is.

[Duke Serkol]

This is kinda rude to say, but maybe you could look up the Hero's Spirit's dialogue? I don't feel like it, because pretty much all of his dialogue hints at various things involving the bloodline of the hero.

Nah, not rude at all. But yes, he does say they belong to the bloodline of the hero. However this doesn't mean everybody born in that timeline does turn out to be hero-like, I think.

As for the Shadow Assasins, they appear to be intelligent creatures but I don't get the "curiosity" vibe from the stuff involving them.

No I didn't mean they'd be curious in the "Oh, what's this? Shiny, let's take it home" more like "WTF was that?? It nearly blinded me! Better keep this one in check."
If they had been looking for that Triforce mark, I think they would have kept Link somewhere closer to Zant, like Zelda, not all the way into the underground cellar.

I just don't think they'd go out of the way to bring someone from the Faron Woods all the way to the castle just because he was an oddity.

Well, the Bullblins took Ilia to the Hidden Gulch for much less apparently.

Plus, there's something to be said about their hunting Link for the rest of the game I think. If he was just an oddity that may not have been a priority of Ganondorf and Zant's forces.

Actually I vividly recall one of the spirits (Eldin, I think) saying that the enemies were now actively hunting for Link (implying that this is because Link is lifting Twilight)

But it's not really a quote that tells us anything. And the whole state of the split timeline goes against it basically. If it wasn't so problematic, I wouldn't suggest forgetting about it. I mean, I could say that it says he was called away to another journey so it can't be MM because he wasn't called away from Hyrule, he chose to leave it.

Well, I can only say one more time what I stated before: this way it works without retcons. But if you'd rather retcon it out, it's your choice.

They also say that they were careless, which they wouldn't be if Ganondorf had just inexplicably gotten the Trfiorce or a similar power.

Uh? I'm not following... why would that not make them careless?
Anyway, chosen by the gods or saying that he had their power through "some kind of divine prank" sounds consistent enough to me.

The stuff involving Link being sent back to his firts meeting with Zelda, except with stuff like the ToC.

That'd be more to be credited to Zelda as the Seventh Sage than the Master Sword. But anyway, the reasons I believe he went back before their first encounter are all contained within the ending, not based off TWW and TP (you know, the single Triforce, Zelda spying through the window, the Ocarina, The Goron bracelet etc.)

"left to die" according to either Colin or Renado. Plus, it appears that they were specifically searching for people, and not randomly doing so. They make it a point to give us a view of everything from the Bulblin King's eyes, and show that he does not notice Link.

It was Colin who said that, yes.
But the Bullblin King (and cohorts) missing Link after whacking him with a club? Seems difficult. I mean Bullblins are dumb, but that would give them a memory span of like three seconds.

even if they were from another world, it wouldn't mean that was necessarily the gods reasoning for banishing them, but I honestly don't believe that was why they did it.

At any rate, what matters is that the Gods treated these guys differently than Ganondorf. I believe there must be a very good reason for this. And I think it ties with the "divine prank" and his being chosen in the most direct interpretation (i.e. that Ganondorf as the same right as anybody in Hyrule to claim the Triforce and that, possibly because the Sages abused their powers, he was given its might as a divine act).

An interesting take on that. Some of it seems to make sense. But that last thing seems to me to mean something more than that, at the least.

Yes, it IS the hardest part to figure out. My alternative take on it, would be that the Interlopers were taking something away from the people of Hyrule (their souls perhaps?)

But they could have made less of a point of making it appear through much of the dialogue to be a Hyrule/light world thing, rather than a battle between worlds.

Yes they could. They also could have used the word Triforce, which they sadly didn't (judging from TMC this seems to be the new cool thing )

What's a darkball? The magic he uses on kid Link is the exact same kind he uses on adult Link, in appearance. The difference is in skill.

Isn't the color different? I mean, that time when Link was a kid he charged up some purple energy. I don't remember purple during the battle as an adult (apart from the wave of darkness).
Not that this really matters, but it may still be interesting

Definetly, but I'm going by what we do know of them. I'd expect something like this from Greek Gods, though. They were jerks.

The Old Testament God wasn't a drinking pal either. He could magically teleport his chosen people to their promised land, but did he do so? Nope, it's decades into the desert with them.
I think all Gods have these sort of tendencies really, if anything simply by allowing evil to exist. Which doesn't necessarily mean they are evil, mind you I'm not saying that. But you know, kids gotta get a few scratches along the way to grow up.

One final thing. In watching the ending of OoT again, are we even sure that Zelda does not have the Triforce on her hand? I though I say something, but her hand is against her mouth. And I don't know how to hack into stuff, so if that could somehow confirm or deny it I wouldn't know. Oh yeah, and we can see in the window that Ganondorf isn't there, whatever that's worth.

I watching it again specifically to be sure of it some time ago, and it's not on the back of her hand (I would hope no one will suggest it could be on the palm ).
As for Ganondorf, he got right in front of the window only the moment Link looked (which is after he and Zelda spoke).

Edited by Duke Serkol, 31 March 2007 - 10:21 AM.

[FDL]

Nah, not rude at all. But yes, he does say they belong to the bloodline of the hero. However this doesn't mean everybody born in that timeline does turn out to be hero-like, I think.

True, but it implies that Link's bloodline has something to do with heroism, even in not all have to be heroes. That could very well have something to do with the ToC, and that's actually what I took some of it to mean. Plus, I think if they intended to have this as a different thing rather than having the ToC then I don't think that they would have mentioned the old hero having it. Why try to make a connection with OoT/MM's hero if it's something that he never even had? All the things that are intended as connections with OoT are basically ruined for this, all because you want TP to lead right into ALttP(which doesn't work anyway) and for the line in TWW not to be retconned.

No I didn't mean they'd be curious in the "Oh, what's this? Shiny, let's take it home" more like "WTF was that?? It nearly blinded me! Better keep this one in check."
If they had been looking for that Triforce mark, I think they would have kept Link somewhere closer to Zant, like Zelda, not all the way into the underground cellar.

But that's what I'm saying, they did keep him close to Zant. They brought him from the outskirts of Ordon all the way to the castle. And they had him chained up, too.

Well, the Bullblins took Ilia to the Hidden Gulch for much less apparently.

Actually, I'm thinking it has something to do with the fact that Ilia ended up not having the ToC, but I'm not positive.

Actually I vividly recall one of the spirits (Eldin, I think) saying that the enemies were now actively hunting for Link (implying that this is because Link is lifting Twilight)

Or, just as likely, because now they know he has the ToC. It's just that there is very little that needs to be explained if it's the actual Triforce.

Well, I can only say one more time what I stated before: this way it works without retcons. But if you'd rather retcon it out, it's your choice.

It's not that I'm retconning it out of my personal continuity, it's that I believe that the creators retconned it out.

Uh? I'm not following... why would that not make them careless?

Because they wouldn't be. I'll break down what I mean. If Ganondorf did not have the Triforce at that time and was causing trouble, it's obvious that they'd want to stop him. According to you, Ganondorf was dying and was then given the ToP/power of ToP right before he died, for no reason. The sages weren't be careless at all, because if he hadn't been randomly given the Triforce they would have ended the threat of Ganondorf. However, if you go by my theory, in which he already had the Triforce, they basically got cocky and thought they could take out the bearer of the Triforce of Power. That's not a perfect explanation, but you get what I mean. I'll elaborate further if need be.

Anyway, chosen by the gods or saying that he had their power through "some kind of divine prank" sounds consistent enough to me.

Well, I've sort of already addressed this before so, meh.

That'd be more to be credited to Zelda as the Seventh Sage than the Master Sword. But anyway, the reasons I believe he went back before their first encounter are all contained within the ending, not based off TWW and TP (you know, the single Triforce, Zelda spying through the window, the Ocarina, The Goron bracelet etc.)

But we don't know that it's the only Triforce, and TML and I have mentioned why they would show that anyway. You're focusing too much on that aspect of it, because the ToC being there is far more important. And Zelda's "spying doesn't even appear to be in the same way as before. She's smiling, and only seems worried when Link actually appears. Plus, in a debate like this, you have to look at everything. I believe MM, TWW and TP imply/confirm what happened in the end of OoT. I'd also like to hear your explanation as to why Link is known as a hero in the child timeline if he did absolutely nothing that anyone would know about.

It was Colin who said that, yes.
But the Bullblin King (and cohorts) missing Link after whacking him with a club? Seems difficult. I mean Bullblins are dumb, but that would give them a memory span of like three seconds.

First of all, the King Bulblin wasn't there when they clubbed him. Secondly, what would you suggest is the reason for the game switching to the KB's perspective and taking care to never show Link at that time?

At any rate, what matters is that the Gods treated these guys differently than Ganondorf. I believe there must be a very good reason for this. And I think it ties with the "divine prank" and his being chosen in the most direct interpretation (i.e. that Ganondorf as the same right as anybody in Hyrule to claim the Triforce and that, possibly because the Sages abused their powers, he was given its might as a divine act).

I've told you why I don't think that the gods would do this. Even if Ganondorf had just as much right as anyone else, that doesn't mean they would choose him of all people to have it. He's a bad man.

Yes, it IS the hardest part to figure out. My alternative take on it, would be that the Interlopers were taking something away from the people of Hyrule (their souls perhaps?)

Yeah, I don't know. I gotta say, some kinda artbook would be good for TP.

Yes they could. They also could have used the word Triforce, which they sadly didn't (judging from TMC this seems to be the new cool thing )

Well, I don't think the light force is the Triforce. I think it more has to do with the special powers the Hylians have been given.

Isn't the color different? I mean, that time when Link was a kid he charged up some purple energy. I don't remember purple during the battle as an adult (apart from the wave of darkness).

Nope, for like a split second it's purplish but for the rest of the time(such as when it's actually formed) it's a similar color to the magic used later.

The Old Testament God wasn't a drinking pal either. He could magically teleport his chosen people to their promised land, but did he do so? Nope, it's decades into the desert with them.
I think all Gods have these sort of tendencies really, if anything simply by allowing evil to exist. Which doesn't necessarily mean they are evil, mind you I'm not saying that. But you know, kids gotta get a few scratches along the way to grow up.

I think that allowing evil to exist and giving evil the power that allows it to take over the world is another thing entirely.

I watching it again specifically to be sure of it some time ago, and it's not on the back of her hand (I would hope no one will suggest it could be on the palm ).
As for Ganondorf, he got right in front of the window only the moment Link looked (which is after he and Zelda spoke).

I'm not so sure. I think I see something on her hand, but we never see it very well. I'll watch it again, soon. But anyway, as I mentioned up there, Zelda doesn't appear worried to me in this scene either. And the Door of Time is open. So there are just as many, if not more, visual clues that say that it isn't during their first meeting.

[MikePetersSucks]

It also occurs to me, in an entirely unrelated thought, that if, as Aonuma says, Twilight Princess happens in the Child Timeline, and The Wind Waker happens in the Adult Timline, why does TP Link become a hero as an adult, yet the Wind Waker era remembers the Hero of Time as a child?

I don't see where it's explictly stated that the Hero of Time was remembered as a child in TWW. They call him a boy, but Adult Link is called "boy" many times. Still, TWW Link is a hero as a child because at that point in his life he was needed. Alternatively, TP Link wasn't needed until he was an adult.

[Hero of Slime]

But didn't Link need to put on the Hero's clothes because he was the same age as the hero?