121 replies to this topic

[Duke Serkol]

He does say something like "went on another journey" but the Hylian writing on the opening "scroll" says that he disappeared into the streams of time, never to be seen again. This sorta implies that his traveling to another land was merely what the people believed, when in fact he went to his own time.

But both things did happen: he did disappear into the flow of time back to his own before leaving Hyrule as the KoRL later adds.

Well, apparently, the main theory of that split group is that now that the creators have decided on a split timeline, the Tingle reference is going to be disregarded. As much as I hate to say it, it appears that's the case.

You mean the Kastu group? There isn't a main theory for that group, that the whole point behind it. The idea is that people withn the group band together and make articles on their respective interpretations of the split. I'm not sure I see that happenening really but I'll see where this goes.
At any rate, I don't really believe the split timeline only came to be supported when they made Twilight Princess, I'm persuaded that it was already a fact back when TWW came out, if not back when ooT did.

I mean, only Zelda knew that Link actually went back in time, correct? Otherwise, the people wouldn't have assumed that Link could just show up whenever he was needed.

On the contrary! Because the people knew he could travel through time, they expected him to appear again, generations after his adventure. That's the way I see that.

Plus, no one really knew what happened with Ganon because they believed he was gone forever, while Zelda said to Link that Hyrule would not always be at peace.

I admit not remembering TWW's intro word by word, but I don't recall it stating or implying that Ganon was thought to have been permanently dealt with.

it would cause [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of problems for either one, mentally(i.e. the people of TP Hyrule discovering that the other half of the timeline had been flooded). People would go insane from that knowledge, I think, and so I believe that the MM references are just coincidences.

While I concur that it doesn't seem likely for anybody but the Zelda and Link of OoT (and the awakened Sages?) to actually know that there are two timelines, they could have been deliberately vague on that point, or maybe because it was so complicate and the people of Hyrule aren't used to this sort of things, details of where Link went and where the Triforce came back from could have been lost.

As in, the people made up ideas as to why Link was no longer around and it coincidentally sounded like MM in a nutshell.

That too is a possibility. But the game and the dialogues in it are ultimately made for us. Why would the programmers make them sound like references to MM if they were not?

I mean, the scroll says that Link disappeared into the flows of time, but the scroll shows Link riding away from Hyrule. That's an inconsistency

It doesn't have to be: Link did both things like I said.

What I'm saying is that now that TP is out, it appears that some of the things we thought we knew about the timeline must be disregarded.

Oh retconning certainly do happen. I do believe OoT was initially meant as a direct prequel to ALttP, but I don't think that's the case anymore. Of course it's up to debate what is rewritten.

We've never seen crests like this that did not represent the actual Triforce, either.

Yes, they have the individual triangle alit. That's one of the reasons I've made up my mind that it's not just a similar power but there is an actual connection.

I think it was more or less there because many (casual) gamers would think "Oh no! He's still alive, just as he was before!" Secondly, we don't know what happened with his body and what not.

But aren't those points in contradiction? You're saying they wanted us to know he was dead, but then they left him standing in the field.

They could have removed the Triforce from his body afterwards, and the fact that the Castle may have been restored by the end just adds to that.

That's a major plot point to leave off-screen though. I think the castle was restored by the Light Spirits. If they didn't bother with that, then they wouldn't have come to help Midna either since she could have been brought back like the castle (or Link's uncle in ALttP) with the Triforce if Zelda or Link had it.
Also if they did, this would mean the whole Triforce remains in Hyrule after the end of the game. What games could this lead into (besides maybe Oracles, I mean)?

Notice the similaities between what happens when Ganondorf is near death?

The Triforce lits up and he doesn't die? I think that was all.

I don't see how he'd go into "rampage mode"

He would, eventually, if he found his attempts at sneaking into the Sacred Realm frustrated by the absence of a certain Ocarina.

how would Link be able to inherit said connection from OoT Link?

You suppose the Triforce was passed down in the family up to TP Link? That his father/mother had it too? I'm asking because I'm not sure how you intend the inheriting to work out. Me, I think TP Link and Zelda have this power simply to balance Ganon's (through the will of the Gods, I mean)

I'm of a differing opinion. If Ganondorf was still out and about, he could easily gather the Spiritual Stones and perhaps attack Zelda if he did not know that Link had the OoT. And if he did know, he wouldn't have just said "Aw nuts, you meddling kids!", wagging his finger, he wouyld have taken it from Link.

But he was in Termina. And if that's what you think, then how do you suppose things went differently and Ganon was captured before he could take over? (I doubt anybody but the Hero of Time could stop him when armed with the Triforce of Power).

[Fyxe]

(I doubt anybody but the Hero of Time could stop him when armed with the Triforce of Power).

Unfortunately... The fact is that Ganon has the Triforce of Power in Twilight Princess, and they stop him.

The question, the BIG question, is how he got it. He must have taken it from the Sacred Realm. He must have done. But knowing he took the Triforce, how can Link and Zelda's conversation then not lead to anyone else, especially the Sages, not knowing this fact?

My idea is that Link goes to the Lost Woods several months after the ending, expecting that Impa and Zelda are now able to deal with Ganondorf. He knows he is too young to be the Hero of Time, therefore he can't defeat Ganondorf. But what happens to Zelda? Aonuma mentioned that Ganondorf commited a terrible act that leads to his execution. What is this terrible act was killing Zelda, and maybe Impa too, meaning that nobody else would know about Ganondorf having the Triforce of Power?

Edited by Fyxe, 27 March 2007 - 03:19 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

The question, the BIG question, is how he got it. He must have taken it from the Sacred Realm. He must have done. But knowing he took the Triforce, how can Link and Zelda's conversation then not lead to anyone else, especially the Sages, not knowing this fact?

I'm not convinced Fyxe. He would have needed the Ocarina of Time, three Spiritual Stones AND the Song of Time which opens the Door of Time which only the Royal Family knew about. Even if Ganondorf managed to magically gather all those in the child timeline he still couldn't have gained access into the Sacred Realm because of the Master Sword acting as a key (he can't touch the blade of evil's bane).

I feel Nintendo has already answered this question wonderfully with TP's divine prank.

[Vertiboy]

We know that the Hero of Time had the Triforce of Courage when he arrived back in the child timeline (or at least shortly afterwards). What if that was due to the (somewhat loose) time travel logic from Majora's Mask, and it would be as if Link touched it, was unbalanced, and it split, without him even entering the Sacred Realm?

[Fyxe]

I'm not convinced Fyxe. He would have needed the Ocarina of Time, three Spiritual Stones AND the Song of Time which opens the Door of Time which only the Royal Family knew about. Even if Ganondorf managed to magically gather all those in the child timeline he still couldn't have gained access into the Sacred Realm because of the Master Sword acting as a key (he can't touch the blade of evil's bane).

Um... He had already entered the Sacred Realm. The door was open, the blade had already been drawn by Link. It's very simple.

I feel Nintendo has already answered this question wonderfully with TP's divine prank.

Yeah, because the Triforce splits randomly. That's totally the sort of thing that it does.

[FDL]

But both things did happen: he did disappear into the flow of time back to his own before leaving Hyrule as the KoRL later adds.

But the two timelines were separate. The KoRL wouldn't know of the Terminian adventure because the two times are completely separate with no overlap. Honestly, I don't know if this can even be debated because it really depends on how you interpret crap. I, myself, think TP basically proves that the ToC left him when he traveled through time. TP and TWW have references to both timelines, but I have my doubts that the two timelines are actually connected. No game has had any overlap between timelines other than small references. But I just don't think anyone actually knew about Termina in the adult timeline.

You mean the Kastu group? There isn't a main theory for that group, that the whole point behind it. The idea is that people withn the group band together and make articles on their respective interpretations of the split. I'm not sure I see that happenening really but I'll see where this goes.

Actually, I believe that that's incorrect. I'm almost sure I read someone's post about that but I don't know.

At any rate, I don't really believe the split timeline only came to be supported when they made Twilight Princess, I'm persuaded that it was already a fact back when TWW came out, if not back when ooT did.

Aonuma apparently says differently.

On the contrary! Because the people knew he could travel through time, they expected him to appear again, generations after his adventure. That's the way I see that.

But they didn't know what his time-traveling power entails.

I admit not remembering TWW's intro word by word, but I don't recall it stating or implying that Ganon was thought to have been permanently dealt with.

Actually:

The great evil that all thought had been forever sealed by the hero... once again crept forth from the depths of the earth eager to resume its dark designs.

While I concur that it doesn't seem likely for anybody but the Zelda and Link of OoT (and the awakened Sages?) to actually know that there are two timelines, they could have been deliberately vague on that point, or maybe because it was so complicate and the people of Hyrule aren't used to this sort of things, details of where Link went and where the Triforce came back from could have been lost.

That's my point, as time went on people sort of forgot about some of the details of the HoT's journey, and thus believed he merely went off to another land.

That too is a possibility. But the game and the dialogues in it are ultimately made for us. Why would the programmers make them sound like references to MM if they were not?

They were at that time. But now they aren't, because Aonuma has solidified the split idea. Anyway, I'm not sure how references to other aspects of MM make it clear that the ToC came back with Link.

It doesn't have to be: Link did both things like I said.

But no one would know that if you go by the common split timeline theory.

Oh retconning certainly do happen. I do believe OoT was initially meant as a direct prequel to ALttP, but I don't think that's the case anymore. Of course it's up to debate what is rewritten.

Yeah, similar to the Temple of Time's location. I think the MM references must be one of these cases, at least when actual storyline is concerned.

But aren't those points in contradiction? You're saying they wanted us to know he was dead, but then they left him standing in the field.

What I mean is this. Many casual fans or newbies to the series will remember the Arbiters Grounds and think "But he's come back before! Couldn't he come back again?!", which is what that scene was made for. But we can't say they did not get the Triforce back because we don't know that. Hell, even TWW, which heavily involved the Triforce in it's ending, was unclear as to what happened to the Triforce at the very end. We don't know if it went back to the three holders, we don't know if it went to the King as ALttP says happens, we don't know if it destroyed itself, went to the SR, etc.

That's a major plot point to leave off-screen though. I think the castle was restored by the Light Spirits. If they didn't bother with that, then they wouldn't have come to help Midna either since she could have been brought back like the castle (or Link's uncle in ALttP) with the Triforce if Zelda or Link had it.

But the Twilight Mirror and Midna's fate unfortunately was more majorerer. Plus, I think the light spirits reviving Midna was a lot point mainly there to surprise us. As much as I hate to say it, Nintendo usually uses plot points in order to tell a good in-game story and surprise us. It's significance in the overall story and timeline are secondary. The Triforce just happened to be something that was glossed over in the ending of TP(and TWW at the very end). We had seen a wish made on the Triforce in the end of ALttP, so they didn't show it in TP. Even in OoT they left the Triforce and the timelines state wide open, which is why we're debating this at all.

Also if they did, this would mean the whole Triforce remains in Hyrule after the end of the game. What games could this lead into (besides maybe Oracles, I mean)?

Who knows? Where did it go at the end of TWW? I'm strictly going by TP and OoT, nothing after that. But they could have returned it to the SR or something.

The Triforce lits up and he doesn't die? I think that was all.

That, and the music is the same, Ganondorf's appearance in both is very similar, and his actions are similar as well.

He would, eventually, if he found his attempts at sneaking into the Sacred Realm frustrated by the absence of a certain Ocarina.

We don't know that. Last we saw of him, he was manipulating everything flawlessy. Who's to say he wouldn't still do that?

You suppose the Triforce was passed down in the family up to TP Link? That his father/mother had it too? I'm asking because I'm not sure how you intend the inheriting to work out. Me, I think TP Link and Zelda have this power simply to balance Ganon's (through the will of the Gods, I mean)

Maybe, maybe not. But the game specifically says the power that allows him to turn into the wolf(which was earlier shown to be the Triforce) was owned by the ancient hero who appears to be OoT Link. It may be familial, though, because he owns Epona and knows Epona's song. Plus, the Hero's Shade/Spirit, whom we know is blood-related to Link, is hinted at being the hero of the past(OoT and MM songs, wolf spirit, revelation that he was THE hero).

But he was in Termina. And if that's what you think, then how do you suppose things went differently and Ganon was captured before he could take over? (I doubt anybody but the Hero of Time could stop him when armed with the Triforce of Power).

Ganondorf was keeping tabs on Link, I think. How else would he know to attack Zelda at the exact moment Link was returning with the Spiritual Stones? He was manipulating everyone in Hyrule flawlessly.

[FDL]

My idea is that Link goes to the Lost Woods several months after the ending, expecting that Impa and Zelda are now able to deal with Ganondorf. He knows he is too young to be the Hero of Time, therefore he can't defeat Ganondorf. But what happens to Zelda? Aonuma mentioned that Ganondorf commited a terrible act that leads to his execution. What is this terrible act was killing Zelda, and maybe Impa too, meaning that nobody else would know about Ganondorf having the Triforce of Power?

I'm not sure I like the idea of those two being killed. Besides, how would they have descendants a hundred years later.

I'm not convinced Fyxe. He would have needed the Ocarina of Time, three Spiritual Stones AND the Song of Time which opens the Door of Time which only the Royal Family knew about. Even if Ganondorf managed to magically gather all those in the child timeline he still couldn't have gained access into the Sacred Realm because of the Master Sword acting as a key (he can't touch the blade of evil's bane).

I feel Nintendo has already answered this question wonderfully with TP's divine prank.

No, it didn't. The divine prank explains nothing, and the ToC's presence at the end of OoT, as well as the sages saying that Ganondorf "had been" blessed with power, makes me pretty sure that the gods didn't give Ganondorf th ToP for no reason. He was only chosen after he already tried to take the Triforce.

We know that the Hero of Time had the Triforce of Courage when he arrived back in the child timeline (or at least shortly afterwards). What if that was due to the (somewhat loose) time travel logic from Majora's Mask, and it would be as if Link touched it, was unbalanced, and it split, without him even entering the Sacred Realm?

I'm not sure what you're implying. Besides, we have Ganondorf quoting the Triforce when he appears to Zant as a god, so I don't know why he couldn't have been the one to take it.

Um... He had already entered the Sacred Realm. The door was open, the blade had already been drawn by Link. It's very simple.
Yeah, because the Triforce splits randomly. That's totally the sort of thing that it does.

I agree with this.

[Fyxe]

I'm not sure I like the idea of those two being killed. Besides, how would they have descendants a hundred years later.

It merely depends on when they're killed. Link's mother was killed when he was a baby, after all. But then she would have time to tell people about the Triforce... Unless she doesn't know... Oh, confusing.

Edited by Fyxe, 27 March 2007 - 05:37 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

We know that the Hero of Time had the Triforce of Courage when he arrived back in the child timeline (or at least shortly afterwards). What if that was due to the (somewhat loose) time travel logic from Majora's Mask, and it would be as if Link touched it, was unbalanced, and it split, without him even entering the Sacred Realm?

If that's what you think happened, then sure, why not? You can also argue that the split of the Triforce transcends time as well I suppose...

Um... He had already entered the Sacred Realm. The door was open, the blade had already been drawn by Link. It's very simple.

Ah, depends entirely on how far you believe the Hero of Time traveled back in time. Eiji said Ganondorf's execution at the Mirror Chamber occurred 3-years after the OoT child ending, so knowing this in advance we can draw up different scenarios to find a suitable match of said events leading up to Majora's Mask, and later on, Twilight Princess:-

Scenario 1
Link travels far back in time to have his first meeting with Princess Zelda and warn her of Ganondorf's dark ambitions.
Thanks to Link's heroic efforts they stop the megalomaniac and ultimately the original Sages bring him to justice. Link leaves Hyrule but not before Zelda gives him the Ocarina of Time.
The only ambiguity here is the Door of Time would obviously be closed (although this clearly didn't bother Navi who flew out the window) but a time-gap would explain a lot as in Majora's Mask that Link is slightly older, able to weld a shield properly, more athletic, and Epona is now a colt (Gorman Brothers quote).

Scenario 2
Link travels back to the moment when he first pulled out the Master Sword.
There are dozens of inconsistencies here, first Zelda shouldn't be in the Courtyard as she's fled with Impa and the Ocarina of Time was left in the adult timeline. There's no time to prevent the attack on Hyrule Castle either, also a serious risk of returning to this exact time since Link could unintentionally encounter Ganondorf waiting outside the Temple of Time.

Scenario 3
Link travels back to the moment after he pulled the out the Master Sword.
Again, inconsistencies and plotholes would surely arise as Ganondorf would be inadvertently trapped within the Sacred Realm he just entered.

Scenario 4
Worst case scenario - Link travels back only several years into the past.
Uh-oh. Ganondorf would of course be the new ruling King of Evil and poor Link would be too young to stop him. We've already determined that the past Hyrule is not bound to the same fate/destiny as the future world.


Now then...guess which scenario is most workable for the split timeline? It's N°.1 or nothing baby.

No, it didn't. The divine prank explains nothing, and the ToC's presence at the end of OoT, as well as the sages saying that Ganondorf "had been" blessed with power, makes me pretty sure that the gods didn't give Ganondorf th ToP for no reason. He was only chosen after he already tried to take the Triforce.

Speaking honestly FDL, your response doesn't surprise me in the least. You've pretty much closed your mind to any kind of suggestion or speculation over the aforementioned "divine prank" so I must admire your enthusiasm for bothering to quote it anyway.

*gives you a shiny gold star for effort*

[Fyxe]

Eiji said Ganondorf's execution at the Mirror Chamber occurred 3-years after the OoT child ending,

Um, he said 'several' years, didn't he?

Scenario 1
Link travels far back in time to have his first meeting with Princess Zelda and warn her of Ganondorf's dark ambitions.
Thanks to Link's heroic efforts they stop the megalomaniac and ultimately the original Sages bring him to justice. Link leaves Hyrule but not before Zelda gives him the Ocarina of Time.
The only ambiguity here is the Door of Time would obviously be closed (although this clearly didn't bother Navi who flew out the window) but a time-gap would explain a lot as in Majora's Mask that Link is slightly older, able to weld a shield properly, more athletic, and Epona is now a colt (Gorman Brothers quote).

There's always a time gap. It's stated in the manual that Majora's Mask occurs a few months after OoT. Cold hard fact.

The problem with your theory here is that the Door of Time is indeed open, and you also forget that Link has the Triforce of Courage, which should have left him, accordng to TWW, when he went back in time. Where did it come from?

Scenario 2
Link travels back to the moment when he first pulled out the Master Sword.
There are dozens of inconsistencies here, first Zelda shouldn't be in the Courtyard as she's fled with Impa and the Ocarina of Time was left in the adult timeline. There's no time to prevent the attack on Hyrule Castle either, also a serious risk of returning to this exact time since Link could unintentionally encounter Ganondorf waiting outside the Temple of Time.

Agreed on pretty much all of those points.

Scenario 3
Link travels back to the moment after he pulled the out the Master Sword.
Again, inconsistencies and plotholes would surely arise as Ganondorf would be inadvertently trapped within the Sacred Realm he just entered.

...
WHAT.

No he wouldn't. Why would he be trapped? He needs to be sealed by the Sages and the goddesses, the placement of the sword is to close the link between the future and the past, NOT to close the way to the Sacred Realm. If it was that easy, sealing him would never have been much of an issue. No, Ganon can still get out.

Scenario 4
Worst case scenario - Link travels back only several years into the past.
Uh-oh. Ganondorf would of course be the new ruling King of Evil and poor Link would be too young to stop him. We've already determined that the past Hyrule is not bound to the same fate/destiny as the future world.

Well, that theory is just madness, because Hyrule Castle is still perfectly fine and Zelda is there both her and Link are the same age as always.

Now then...guess which scenario is most workable for the split timeline? It's N°.1 or nothing baby.

No, it's number three, but you totally misrepresented it and misread it.

Speaking honestly FDL, your response doesn't surprise me in the least. You've pretty much closed your mind to any kind of suggestion or speculation over the aforementioned "divine prank" so I must admire your enthusiasm for bothering to quote it anyway.

Close minded or not, there's no evidence to suggest that the Triforce just randomly splits for no apparent reason.

Edited by Fyxe, 27 March 2007 - 06:42 PM.

[Chaltab]

Scenario 1
Link travels far back in time to have his first meeting with Princess Zelda and warn her of Ganondorf's dark ambitions.
Thanks to Link's heroic efforts they stop the megalomaniac and ultimately the original Sages bring him to justice. Link leaves Hyrule but not before Zelda gives him the Ocarina of Time.
The only ambiguity here is the Door of Time would obviously be closed (although this clearly didn't bother Navi who flew out the window) but a time-gap would explain a lot as in Majora's Mask that Link is slightly older, able to weld a shield properly, more athletic, and Epona is now a colt (Gorman Brothers quote).

I think this is the right one, as you do.

Fyxe, the inconstistencies in possibility three are exactly what Ricky said they were. Ganondorf entered through the Door of Time into the Sacred Realm immediately after Link pulled the sword out of the pedastal. If he went back to the moment after it, the Past!Ganondorf would be trapped in the sacred realm, and Link would have sealed the fate of the Past, forcing history to repeat itself. Ganon would have no way out but to get the Triforce and conquer the past world, making everything Link did in the future moot.

Edited by Chaltab, 27 March 2007 - 06:54 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

Um, he said 'several' years, didn't he?

Yes that's right.

There's always a time gap. It's stated in the manual that Majora's Mask occurs a few months after OoT. Cold hard fact.

Time gap is a good thing but does MM occur few months after in the Japanese manual as well?

The problem with your theory here is that the Door of Time is indeed open, and you also forget that Link has the Triforce of Courage, which should have left him, accordng to TWW, when he went back in time. Where did it come from?

No the door should be closed because Link traveled back to a time before it was opened. As for the CT Triforce it must have split during the meeting, sorry but there's no other logical explanation for the game designers to deliberately put the Triforce of Courage glowing brightly on Link's hand.

No he wouldn't. Why would he be trapped? He needs to be sealed by the Sages and the goddesses, the placement of the sword is to close the link between the future and the past, NOT to close the way to the Sacred Realm. If it was that easy, sealing him would never have been much of an issue. No, Ganon can still get out.

That's merely the scenario you were presented with; Link travels back straight after he first pulled the Master Sword meaning Ganondorf has just entered the Sacred Realm. You would have to be mad not to notice him following Link to the Triforce's resting place in OoT. Twilight Princess couldn't follow after these events because they are almost parallel with AT chronology. It really doesn't matter as it has all the flaws of above second scenario concerning the Ocarina of Time's existence.

Well, that theory is just madness, because Hyrule Castle is still perfectly fine and Zelda is there both her and Link are the same age as always.

Exactly.

No, it's number three, but you totally misrepresented it and misread it.

I think you need to read it again slowly; I am very tired so perhaps I haven't worded my past, present and future tense properly?

[Fyxe]

Time gap is a good thing but does MM occur few months after in the Japanese manual as well?

Good question, I expect so, but I don't know.

No the door should be closed because Link traveled back to a time before it was opened.

That was my point, though. The problem with the theory is that the door *should* be closed, but it's not.

As for the CT Triforce it must have split during the meeting, sorry but there's no other logical explanation for the game designers to deliberately put the Triforce of Courage glowing brightly on Link's hand.

If it split during the meeting, that means Ganondorf has already entered the Sacred Realm, making the whole scenario quite meaningless.

That's merely the scenario you were presented with; Link travels back straight after he first pulled the Master Sword meaning Ganondorf has just entered the Sacred Realm. You would have to be mad not to notice him following Link to the Triforce's resting place in OoT.

That doesn't mean the Master Sword would seal him, which is my point.

Twilight Princess couldn't follow after these events because they are almost parallel with AT chronology. It really doesn't matter as it has all the flaws of above second scenario concerning the Ocarina of Time's existence.

The Ocarina isn't really an issue, because we could assume that Zelda sends it back with Link as well, she just needs to play it first, and it'll vanish soon after Link goes.

But Twilight Princess is MEANT to be parallel. Aonuma said the only difference we know about if the conversation, then things start changing. Considering the Door of Time is open and Link has the Triforce of Courage, we *have* to assume that Ganondorf has reached the Triforce by the end of the Young Link ending.

This doesn't mean he should come back RIGHT after he has drawn the sword, no, he would just come back as normal, meaning the time he spent in the future is the same amount of time he spent away in the past.

Edited by Fyxe, 27 March 2007 - 08:27 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

Unfortunately... The fact is that Ganon has the Triforce of Power in Twilight Princess, and they stop him.

Well, they had him just in front of the mirror, that's the only reason they managed to stop him.

I feel Nintendo has already answered this question wonderfully with TP's divine prank.

I'd leave it at that too.

What if that was due to the (somewhat loose) time travel logic from Majora's Mask, and it would be as if Link touched it, was unbalanced, and it split, without him even entering the Sacred Realm?

But why would there be no mark on little Zelda's hand?

But the two timelines were separate. The KoRL wouldn't know of the Terminian adventure because the two times are completely separate with no overlap.

Perhaps the King learned some bits that came to the adult timeline's Hyrule together with the Legend of the Fairy? (The legend of the Hero's journey to another land)
That's how I see it.

I, myself, think TP basically proves that the ToC left him when he traveled through time.

I suppose I can understand why you see it that way. Like I said, having two Triforces of Courage in the same timeline, although shortly, may not be pretty... but I still think that's what was actually intended.

Aonuma apparently says differently.

Is it Aonuma who says so... or TSA?

But they didn't know what his time-traveling power entails.

Yes, they did not. Had they know how and to what extent the Hero of Time could travel, they wouldn't have expected him to return.
As for the "thought to have been permanently taken care of" part, point conceded

Hell, even TWW, which heavily involved the Triforce in it's ending, was unclear as to what happened to the Triforce at the very end.

Yes, TWW's ending was admittedly very confusing. What appears to be a ghost touched the Triforce and made a wish upon it. The Triforce went on to fulfill the wish and... didn't come back. Was it not done? Is it because the king may technically be already dead? It's hard to tell.

The Triforce just happened to be something that was glossed over in the ending of TP(and TWW at the very end). We had seen a wish made on the Triforce in the end of ALttP, so they didn't show it in TP.

I've heard these points in the past, but while possible I don't believe this to be the case.

Who knows? Where did it go at the end of TWW? I'm strictly going by TP and OoT, nothing after that.

But if you go by this interpretation, which game is it ALttP should follow? Neither it would seem. That would lead us to a three pronged timeline, or to just assume there's a huge gap with a number of untold events between games.

That, and the music is the same, Ganondorf's appearance in both is very similar, and his actions are similar as well.

Are they? The music is Ganondorf's Tower collapsing, not his re-appearence and turning into Ganon. His appearence is similar because well, it's him. And his actions? He's breaking chains and killing sages, not floating into air and curling up to then stretch into a giant boar.

We don't know that. Last we saw of him, he was manipulating everything flawlessy. Who's to say he wouldn't still do that?

I'm sure he would, but manipulation wouldn't take him anywhere at that point.

the game specifically says the power that allows him to turn into the wolf(which was earlier shown to be the Triforce) was owned by the ancient hero who appears to be OoT Link.

Which is one of the reasons I decided it is most likely a connection to the Triforce of Courage and not just a similar power.

Ganondorf was keeping tabs on Link, I think.

But it IS a fact that he left for Termina with the Ocarina.

we have Ganondorf quoting the Triforce when he appears to Zant as a god, so I don't know why he couldn't have been the one to take it.

I believe he may have heard the word upon receicing his power, regardless of how this happened.

[FDL]

Ah, depends entirely on how far you believe the Hero of Time traveled back in time. Eiji said Ganondorf's execution at the Mirror Chamber occurred 3-years after the OoT child ending, so knowing this in advance we can draw up different scenarios to find a suitable match of said events leading up to Majora's Mask, and later on, Twilight Princess:-

Okay, he never said three years. Several could be 2-9.

Scenario 1
Link travels far back in time to have his first meeting with Princess Zelda and warn her of Ganondorf's dark ambitions.
Thanks to Link's heroic efforts they stop the megalomaniac and ultimately the original Sages bring him to justice. Link leaves Hyrule but not before Zelda gives him the Ocarina of Time.
The only ambiguity here is the Door of Time would obviously be closed (although this clearly didn't bother Navi who flew out the window) but a time-gap would explain a lot as in Majora's Mask that Link is slightly older, able to weld a shield properly, more athletic, and Epona is now a colt (Gorman Brothers quote).

Wait, what? How is his increased physical prowess any proof for when he returned. Anyway, I'm not sure why they didn't just have Link go back and do that in the first place if he could so easily prevent Ganondorf from getting the Triforce. Fact is, we've never been given any indication that Link could go back that far, while throughout OoT he is only able to return to the time that he last had visited.

Scenario 2
Link travels back to the moment when he first pulled out the Master Sword.
There are dozens of inconsistencies here, first Zelda shouldn't be in the Courtyard as she's fled with Impa and the Ocarina of Time was left in the adult timeline. There's no time to prevent the attack on Hyrule Castle either, also a serious risk of returning to this exact time since Link could unintentionally encounter Ganondorf waiting outside the Temple of Time.

Dozens being one debateable one? Ganondorf attacked the castle and they surrendered "A short time later" according to Impa. He'd have time before it happened. Plus, there are inconsistencies with this theory as well. The ToC is there, and there would be two Link's roaming around, to name a few.

Scenario 3
Link travels back to the moment after he pulled the out the Master Sword.
Again, inconsistencies and plotholes would surely arise as Ganondorf would be inadvertently trapped within the Sacred Realm he just entered.

I dunno, that wasn't even what I was implying.

Scenario 4
Worst case scenario - Link travels back only several years into the past.
Uh-oh. Ganondorf would of course be the new ruling King of Evil and poor Link would be too young to stop him. We've already determined that the past Hyrule is not bound to the same fate/destiny as the future world.
Now then...guess which scenario is most workable for the split timeline? It's N°.1 or nothing baby..

This is just as likely, though. I mean, if Link can suddenly use the Master Sword to go back to a time before he met Zelda, why couldn't he use the MAster Sword to do anything he wanted? I mean, I could say that he accidently went back to a time before he was even born and warn Zelda's mom, Zelda Senior, about someone her husband would meet in the future. If it can do all that, why didn't he just use it for some other thing? Like, why didn't he go and kill Ganondorf as a baby?

Speaking honestly FDL, your response doesn't surprise me in the least. You've pretty much closed your mind to any kind of suggestion or speculation over the aforementioned "divine prank" so I must admire your enthusiasm for bothering to quote it anyway.

*gives you a shiny gold star for effort*

Almost as closed-minded as believing the Master Sword slept forever at the end of ALttP? Explain why, according to the sages, Ganondorf "had been" blessed with said power of the gods if he was "blessed" right then? And why would the goddesses, who so opposed Ganondorf, suddenly decide they had changed their minds about him? And explain why Link had the Triforce of Courage and the Hylian Shield? And how Ganondorf knows how to impersonate what the Triforce says when you wish on it? The references to the "ancient hero" who is revered by Hyrule's inhabitants even one-hundred years later? MM's saying Link had fulfilled his destiny and taken his place amongst legends? Why Ganondorf just decided "The hell with it" and did something outrageous enough to be executed without even having what he so wanted?

Honestly, I'm not just covering my ears and humming, and it's foolish that you would accuse me of that. If Aonuma or someone else came out and explained the details of what happened at OoT's end and it resembled what you say, I would concede to you that officially you're right. But the fact is, my theory is just as justified as yours, and you appear to me to be just as closed minded as I supposedly am.

[FDL]

Crap, I saw this after I already posted my other reply.

But why would there be no mark on little Zelda's hand?

Well, to be fair, the resonating stuff is slightly inconsistent. Throughout all of OoT, Link and Sheik never are shown to have their Triforce pieces until it's revealed that they do, and have had them the whole time. And Ganondorf's ToP did not resonate until he actually physically grabbed Tetra. In fact, the only time they all glow without the persuasion to do so is when they're all together.

Perhaps the King learned some bits that came to the adult timeline's Hyrule together with the Legend of the Fairy? (The legend of the Hero's journey to another land)

But why would said tidbits allow him to somehow discover all these crazy, unexpected things about the ToC that even Link didn't appear to be aware of? And what did he do in MM that "separated him from the elements that made him a hero"? I mean, that's never been elaborated on.

I suppose I can understand why you see it that way. Like I said, having two Triforces of Courage in the same timeline, although shortly, may not be pretty... but I still think that's what was actually intended.

And I don't, to be honest. While Aonuma and the writing team may have written a more complex story than what it appears to be at first glance, I do not believe that they intended that at all. It just seems too sloppy to be the outcome of the split.

Is it Aonuma who says so... or TSA?

Well, I suppose TSA could be lying, but I don't see why he would. Plus, the MM references in TWW and the state of TP overall in the timeline makes me believe this.

Yes, they did not. Had they know how and to what extent the Hero of Time could travel, they wouldn't have expected him to return.
As for the "thought to have been permanently taken care of" part, point conceded

Then it appears you're closer to understanding where I'm coming from, even if you disagree.

Yes, TWW's ending was admittedly very confusing. What appears to be a ghost touched the Triforce and made a wish upon it. The Triforce went on to fulfill the wish and... didn't come back. Was it not done? Is it because the king may technically be already dead? It's hard to tell.

Yeah, that's my point. Many things are done in Zelda and many other franchises just to make the story have cool moments, without a great deal of actual backing.

I've heard these points in the past, but while possible I don't believe this to be the case.
But if you go by this interpretation, which game is it ALttP should follow? Neither it would seem. That would lead us to a three pronged timeline, or to just assume there's a huge gap with a number of untold events between games.

That's no proof really, because back when OoT was believed to be the direct prequel of ALttP no one minded the fact that in one Ganon had the whole Triforce and in the otehr only one piece of it. If we go only by the state of the Triforce then the Miyamoto timeline shouldn't have been so heavily opposed way back when.

Are they? The music is Ganondorf's Tower collapsing, not his re-appearence and turning into Ganon. His appearence is similar because well, it's him. And his actions? He's breaking chains and killing sages, not floating into air and curling up to then stretch into a giant boar.

Both times he doesn't have the Triforce of Power on the back of his hand(I may be mistaken but I don't think Ganondorf has the ToP on the back of his hand during his fight with Link) and then is nearly killed. Suddenly, right when it's believed he's dead, he reappears with the Triforce glowing and a beast-liek appearance, complete with pupiless eyes.

Which is one of the reasons I decided it is most likely a connection to the Triforce of Courage and not just a similar power.

But I could just as easily argue that it IS the ToC. Which I am doing.

But it IS a fact that he left for Termina with the Ocarina.

But Ganondorf was watching him. That's the only explanation I can think of as to why he knew to leave the forged Princess Ruto note exactly where Link was headed and how he knew when to make his feint for the Ocarina of Time.

I believe he may have heard the word upon receicing his power, regardless of how this happened.

Well I like to use any elements of ALttP's backstory that can still apply to OoT, but it's possible that that could work.

[The Missing Link]

Well, they had him just in front of the mirror, that's the only reason they managed to stop him.

Well, technically the Sages DID manage to get him chained to a huge boulder. I'd say that's a significant effort towards those ends.

I suppose I can understand why you see it that way. Like I said, having two Triforces of Courage in the same timeline, although shortly, may not be pretty... but I still think that's what was actually intended.

Agreed. It would completely damage the AST (Aonuma Standard Timeline), but I'll bet that's exactly what they wanted to have happen.

But if you go by this interpretation, which game is it ALttP should follow? Neither it would seem. That would lead us to a three pronged timeline, or to just assume there's a huge gap with a number of untold events between games.

I honestly believe that a three-pronged timeline is a synonym for the we-give-up timeline. Which technically we're not all that far from.

Well, to be fair, the resonating stuff is slightly inconsistent. Throughout all of OoT, Link and Sheik never are shown to have their Triforce pieces until it's revealed that they do, and have had them the whole time. And Ganondorf's ToP did not resonate until he actually physically grabbed Tetra. In fact, the only time they all glow without the persuasion to do so is when they're all together.

There's a simple answer to this. Nintendo parades off the Triforce pieces... when they feel it is important to do so. In Ocarina Link and Zelda/Sheik should have had the ToC and ToW prespectively for the entire span of the adult section of Ocarina, but it's not shown until that dramatic moment at the Temple of Time when both are revealed. Why? It's completely random from a physics point of view, but from a storytelling point of view, it's entirely sensible. It then repeats when showing Ganon(dorf)'s ToP at the top of the tower and when he turns into Ganon because Nintendo wanted to remind you that, hey, this guy is serious, no-holds-barred.

In Oracle of Ages and Seasons, the Triforce symbol is printed cleanly on Link's hand... even though the Triforce may theoretically be hundreds of miles away in that temple... but they want you to know that it's kinda Link's this time around.

In Wind Waker, Tetra had the ToW the entire time. She's even, as I recall, wearing it around her neck! But you don't see it; it's hidden... until that time when they want you to know that she's more than she appears to be. They just want you to think she's some random pirate... until whammo! It resonates with Ganondorf's! But wait! She doesn't even have the entire ToW! The King of Red Lions has the other half of it. What?? How did it resonate if it wasn't complete? It's simple; it's a plot device and nothing more.

In Twilight, I don't think we ever see all of the Triforce pieces glowing; I think we're missing the ToC or the ToW, one. Why don't we see them all? Nintendo decided it was irrelevant.

We could establish some sort of rule about the revelation of the Triforce, but it'd be arbitrary at best and wrong at worst. Nintendo obviously isn't going to play by their own physics; they're out to tell a story first and foremost, and if something gets in the way of that, then the rules be damned. So as I'm far as I'm concerned, just about the entire record about the resonance of the Triforces should be thrown out.

And I don't, to be honest. While Aonuma and the writing team may have written a more complex story than what it appears to be at first glance, I do not believe that they intended that at all. It just seems too sloppy to be the outcome of the split.

Remember now; Aonuma wasn't in charge when Ocarina's ending was made. This is Miyamoto's work, and I think it's quite clear that Miyamoto isn't all that concerned with timeline development.

Edited by The Missing Link, 27 March 2007 - 11:38 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

the resonating stuff is slightly inconsistent.

Yes, but why would they show us Link's mark and not Zelda's if she had it too? I think it's simply because she doesn't.

But why would said tidbits allow him to somehow discover all these crazy, unexpected things about the ToC that even Link didn't appear to be aware of? And what did he do in MM that "separated him from the elements that made him a hero"? I mean, that's never been elaborated on.

Link of OoT you mean, right? Well the King could simply have put two and two together: he knows the hero disappeared into the flow of time, and he may have heard bits of his adventure in Termina (just as we learn of the legend of the fairy in-game) so, if he knows that under any circumstances the Triforce will abandon somebody if they try to leave Hyrule (and I suppose this may be known to him, since Sheik/Zelda demonstrated the Royal Family knows the Triforce well) he can figure it out.
Note that the Triforce "refusing to leave Hyrule" may also go along with statements that it is Hyrule's providence (OoT) and that the Gods wouldn't let interlopers touch it (TP).

That's no proof really, because back when OoT was believed to be the direct prequel of ALttP no one minded the fact that in one Ganon had the whole Triforce and in the otehr only one piece of it.

Well, I was. It really did bother me and it's the main reason I don't mind putting games between those two at all, unlike Arturo
But anyway, yes it could be that other games will eventually come and help connect TP and FSA to ALttP, but at this point I don't consider it likely.

I may be mistaken but I don't think Ganondorf has the ToP on the back of his hand during his fight with Link

He certainly does before the fight though, when he casts Navi aside.

and a beast-liek appearance

That didn't happen in TP, did it?

But Ganondorf was watching him.

Doesn't change facts.

That's the only explanation I can think of as to why he knew to leave the forged Princess Ruto note

I always intended that as Ruto being too proud to admit she asked for help in her letter... but I won't argue it.

Well I like to use any elements of ALttP's backstory that can still apply to OoT, but it's possible that that could work.

You mean the "killed his own followers" bit? I like that too, I keep it for after he followed Link in during OoT.

Well, technically the Sages DID manage to get him chained to a huge boulder. I'd say that's a significant effort towards those ends.

Yes but if you had read my previous posts, you'd know I don't believe him to have had the Triforce (or his connection to it) until getting stabbed.

Agreed. It would completely damage the AST (Aonuma Standard Timeline), but I'll bet that's exactly what they wanted to have happen.

By Aonuma Standard you mean standard interpretation? Or that it would conflict with what he said?

Remember now; Aonuma wasn't in charge when Ocarina's ending was made. This is Miyamoto's work, and I think it's quite clear that Miyamoto isn't all that concerned with timeline development.

Yep! Maybe if Aonuma had been in charge os the storyline Ganon would have been sealed with all three Triforce parts and later games would have taken a completely different direction (storyline wise).
At any rate, it does seem to me that ever since MM he's been working to slowly weave things back together (although through two timelines).

Edited by Duke Serkol, 28 March 2007 - 11:51 AM.

[Tekky]

This is just as likely, though. I mean, if Link can suddenly use the Master Sword to go back to a time before he met Zelda, why couldn't he use the MAster Sword to do anything he wanted? I mean, I could say that he accidently went back to a time before he was even born and warn Zelda's mom, Zelda Senior, about someone her husband would meet in the future. If it can do all that, why didn't he just use it for some other thing? Like, why didn't he go and kill Ganondorf as a baby?

I reckon he can't do that because he is part of events in the future... It's like in Doctor Who. Why can't the Doctor with his time machine go back and warn people about the impending catastophe that he is meant to stop? Because as soon as the TARDIS lands, he becomes part of events and is stuck in that timeline. We saw what happened when Rose changed the past in "Father's Day" (big monsters came and tried to eat the earth!)...

So I guess it's something similar. Link can't go back and warn Zelda as the future is already happening. But, in the ending, Zelda uses her powers to effectively give Link a second chance or something. Does that make sense?

[The Missing Link]

By Aonuma Standard you mean standard interpretation? Or that it would conflict with what he said?

AST is my abbreviation for the partial timeline Aonuma came out with, namely WW <-- OoT --> MM --> TP.

[Duke Serkol]

And what I said messes with it? 'cuz that is what my timeline is like (part of it, of course).

[FDL]

There's a simple answer to this. Nintendo parades off the Triforce pieces... when they feel it is important to do so. In Ocarina Link and Zelda/Sheik should have had the ToC and ToW prespectively for the entire span of the adult section of Ocarina, but it's not shown until that dramatic moment at the Temple of Time when both are revealed. Why? It's completely random from a physics point of view, but from a storytelling point of view, it's entirely sensible. It then repeats when showing Ganon(dorf)'s ToP at the top of the tower and when he turns into Ganon because Nintendo wanted to remind you that, hey, this guy is serious, no-holds-barred.

In Oracle of Ages and Seasons, the Triforce symbol is printed cleanly on Link's hand... even though the Triforce may theoretically be hundreds of miles away in that temple... but they want you to know that it's kinda Link's this time around.

In Wind Waker, Tetra had the ToW the entire time. She's even, as I recall, wearing it around her neck! But you don't see it; it's hidden... until that time when they want you to know that she's more than she appears to be. They just want you to think she's some random pirate... until whammo! It resonates with Ganondorf's! But wait! She doesn't even have the entire ToW! The King of Red Lions has the other half of it. What?? How did it resonate if it wasn't complete? It's simple; it's a plot device and nothing more.

In Twilight, I don't think we ever see all of the Triforce pieces glowing; I think we're missing the ToC or the ToW, one. Why don't we see them all? Nintendo decided it was irrelevant.

We could establish some sort of rule about the revelation of the Triforce, but it'd be arbitrary at best and wrong at worst. Nintendo obviously isn't going to play by their own physics; they're out to tell a story first and foremost, and if something gets in the way of that, then the rules be damned. So as I'm far as I'm concerned, just about the entire record about the resonance of the Triforces should be thrown out.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said and meant. The Triforce not glowing on Zelda's hand at the end of OoT doesn't necessarliy mean she doesn't have it, and it doesn't imply that the ToC on the back of Link's hand is the one from the separate timeline.

Remember now; Aonuma wasn't in charge when Ocarina's ending was made. This is Miyamoto's work, and I think it's quite clear that Miyamoto isn't all that concerned with timeline development.

Right, but if Aonuma meant what DS says he meant, I think the games would refelect that.

Yes, but why would they show us Link's mark and not Zelda's if she had it too? I think it's simply because she doesn't.

Again, look at the point TML and I brought up. Why wouldn't the Triforce appear on Link and Sheik's hands every time they came in contact with one another? I mean, Zelda is only shown with the ToW twice in all of OoT, despite the fact that we know she had it the whole time. I think one person having the Triforce glowing on their hand when they usually don't lends more credit to a theory then one person whom has not always demonstrated having a Triforce does not have one visible. I mean, if Zelda always had the Triforce on her hand and then in that one scene did not, I'd thinjk you were on to something. But at the moment, I think Zelda not having the crest visible is insignificant in comparison to Link having it.

Link of OoT you mean, right? Well the King could simply have put two and two together: he knows the hero disappeared into the flow of time, and he may have heard bits of his adventure in Termina (just as we learn of the legend of the fairy in-game) so, if he knows that under any circumstances the Triforce will abandon somebody if they try to leave Hyrule (and I suppose this may be known to him, since Sheik/Zelda demonstrated the Royal Family knows the Triforce well) he can figure it out.

Perhaps, but I think there is too much that you need to explain for this theory to really work. Nintendo isn't into writing very complex storylines, and so I don't think they would make up some new thing involving the Triforce that they never explain. They would have said something more about it if it had been something liek this which we've never seen before.

Note that the Triforce "refusing to leave Hyrule" may also go along with statements that it is Hyrule's providence (OoT) and that the Gods wouldn't let interlopers touch it (TP).

Well first of all, in my theory it has to do with the two times not connecting, which is what I believe the games seem to imply. But anyway, the interlopers work just as well for my theory. As Ganondorf says, the Twili's ancestors had always amused him because while they had exhibited powers far exceding the rest of Hyrule's people, the gods intervened before they could get the Triforce. They were "cast aside", in Ganondorf's mind. Ganondorf, on the other hand, was not stopped by the light spirits who govern and protect Hyrule for the sake of the gods, and thus he believes he was chosen. I doubt they would include the parallelism between the Gerudo and the Twili for it to amount to nothing.

Well, I was. It really did bother me and it's the main reason I don't mind putting games between those two at all, unlike Arturo

But that's what I'm saying, prior to TWW and TP most people didn't mind the difference in the state of the Triforce. I don't understand why now that TP is out that policy has changed.

But anyway, yes it could be that other games will eventually come and help connect TP and FSA to ALttP, but at this point I don't consider it likely.

I disagree. After PH, I'm think we'll either get a sequel to TP, a prequel to TWW, or a prequel to all of them that tells the story of the Twili.

He certainly does before the fight though, when he casts Navi aside.

But he doesn't during the fight, because the Triforces were not "becoming one". Zelda was teleported away, remember? My point is, he's not constantly using the Triforce, at least to it's full extent. That's why he was captured.

That didn't happen in TP, did it?

Yes he did, I'm talking about the resemblance between Ganondorf after he's stabbed in TP and before he actually turns into Ganon in OoT. He looks very similar in these two appearances, and even does the same "triumphantly show off the crest" thing.

Doesn't change facts.

What I'm saying is, if he needed the Ocarina he could've just caught Link before he left and killed him. Zelda seems too happy in MM's flashback to be someone who has been warding off evil and worrying about being attacked on a daily basis. I'm not sure what that implies, but it's something.

I always intended that as Ruto being too proud to admit she asked for help in her letter... but I won't argue it.

Well it's possible. It's hard to convey emotion in text. But I don't see why she would ask for help when she wanted to stay and find her mother's stone.

You mean the "killed his own followers" bit? I like that too, I keep it for after he followed Link in during OoT.

Well, yeah, I like that, but I mean the "Triforce talking to him when he grabbed it" thing.

I reckon he can't do that because he is part of events in the future... It's like in Doctor Who. Why can't the Doctor with his time machine go back and warn people about the impending catastophe that he is meant to stop? Because as soon as the TARDIS lands, he becomes part of events and is stuck in that timeline. We saw what happened when Rose changed the past in "Father's Day" (big monsters came and tried to eat the earth!)...

So I guess it's something similar. Link can't go back and warn Zelda as the future is already happening. But, in the ending, Zelda uses her powers to effectively give Link a second chance or something. Does that make sense?

Well doesn't she say she wants him to put back the Master Sword? I'm not sure she was even the one who sent him back. Plus, if she wanted him to change the future why didn't she ask him if he'd be willing to go back and kill Ganondorf? If she can send him back to before they first met then who's to say she can't do anything?

[Duke Serkol]

Right, but if Aonuma meant what DS says he meant, I think the games would refelect that.

Right, but I think they do

Again, look at the point TML and I brought up. Why wouldn't the Triforce appear on Link and Sheik's hands every time they came in contact with one another?

TML makes a very good point. the programmers choose when to "awe" us by showing the Triforce, completely arbitrarily. in his own words, they're out to tell a story.
But then kindly explain me: why do you think they decided to have it on Link's hand and not Zelda's? You still have to answer that.

Perhaps, but I think there is too much that you need to explain for this theory to really work. Nintendo isn't into writing very complex storylines

Maybe so. Maybe
But still, this is more or less the only way everything stated in the game fits and does not contradict itself.

Ganondorf, on the other hand, was not stopped by the light spirits who govern and protect Hyrule for the sake of the gods, and thus he believes he was chosen.

Ah well, that could be... but now who is it that is reading something that is not outright stated? The most immediate interpretation to those quotes would be that Ganon was given his power, that he was chosen, while the Twili were halted simply because they did not belong in Hyrule.

My point is, he's not constantly using the Triforce, at least to it's full extent. That's why he was captured.

Well, you'd expect him to, you know, use it when the Sages try to capture him... or at least moments before getting stabbed. What use is it to wait until after receiving a never healing wound?

I'm talking about the resemblance between Ganondorf after he's stabbed in TP and before he actually turns into Ganon in OoT. He looks very similar in these two appearances, and even does the same "triumphantly show off the crest" thing.

I wouldn't describe Ganondorf as triumphant in OoT after he floats off from the debris of his tower... more like extremely pissed off.

What I'm saying is, if he needed the Ocarina he could've just caught Link before he left and killed him. Zelda seems too happy in MM's flashback to be someone who has been warding off evil and worrying about being attacked on a daily basis. I'm not sure what that implies, but it's something.

So what do you suggest? That Ganon had already been dealt with? Doesn't seem likely. The way the Sages describe it, it appears he was captured while waging a war.

Well it's possible. It's hard to convey emotion in text. But I don't see why she would ask for help when she wanted to stay and find her mother's stone.

Could be a change of mind. I'd be rather scared if a fish infested with monsters gulped me down

Well, yeah, I like that, but I mean the "Triforce talking to him when he grabbed it" thing.

That could actually happen in both cases (after getting it in OoT and on the moment of his execution in TP... minus the grab it part, of course).

[FDL]

Right, but I think they do

Meh, you haven't convinced me of that, and vice versa. So this is sort of a moot point I guess.

TML makes a very good point. the programmers choose when to "awe" us by showing the Triforce, completely arbitrarily. in his own words, they're out to tell a story.
But then kindly explain me: why do you think they decided to have it on Link's hand and not Zelda's? You still have to answer that.

Honestly, I can't say for sure why. But my best guess would be that it's because this is Link's story, not Zelda's(despite the name). They wanted our last image to be the hero with the crest that proves his courage to be shining. And a hint to show us that this is not the scene that we had experienced already.

Maybe so. Maybe
But still, this is more or less the only way everything stated in the game fits and does not contradict itself.

I'm not sure what is contradicted by saying that it was the Triforce, and that Ganondorf already had it. I mean, you're theory is perfectly valid but I've only seen two people who hold this theory. If the game indeed made it so obvious, as you say, I don't think we'd have these conflicting theories.

Ah well, that could be... but now who is it that is reading something that is not outright stated? The most immediate interpretation to those quotes would be that Ganon was given his power, that he was chosen, while the Twili were halted simply because they did not belong in Hyrule.

It may not be stated, but they chose to have the story of the interlopers parallel Ganondorf's very much, and then they chose to have Ganondorf mock the Twili for doing what he himself had done. If he had failed, why would he find it funny that others made the same mistake he did? I mean, Ganondorf led a band of magic wielding thieves to steal the Triforce. The Twili were a group of magic wielders who tried to steal the Triforce. They were in the same boat, and if both had failed then I doubt one would gloat and the others would live a so changed by their arrogance that their descendants "have not the faintest bloom of desire".

As for the idea that the "interlopers" were not of Hyrule, it's an interesting idea but not necessarily the correct one. I know that interloper means an invader of some sort, but Ganondorf is described with these words as well. In TWW and OoT, they differentiate between the desert and Hyrule, and appear to imply that they are not technically the same country. Plus, TP itself describes Ganondorf's actions as "invading" Hyrule. Plus, the Twili are said to have appeared amongst those living in the light, which appears to imply a relation the rest of the people of Hyrule, which the light usually refers to. Finally, the way that they are said to be "chased from the sacred lands of Hyrule" and "banished" implies that they were from Hyrule.

Well, you'd expect him to, you know, use it when the Sages try to capture him... or at least moments before getting stabbed. What use is it to wait until after receiving a never healing wound?

My point is, he can't. Why would he wait to get stabbed and slashed repeatedly and then buried under his own castle to use the ToP in OoT?

I wouldn't describe Ganondorf as triumphant in OoT after he floats off from the debris of his tower... more like extremely pissed off.

Perhaps my wording was off, but the fact remains. Ganondorf having something that should kill him happen to him and then reappearing, raising up his fist in order to show off the ToP, and having a demonic, pupiless appearance happens in both games. And then they even play music that alludes to that part of OoT.

So what do you suggest? That Ganon had already been dealt with? Doesn't seem likely. The way the Sages describe it, it appears he was captured while waging a war.

Meh, I'd rather get off this subject. I was just musing on it. We can't be sure what happened that caused Link to relax. Really, nothing is concrete as to why he would feel comfortable enough with Hyrule's affairs that he woudl leave it behind.

Could be a change of mind. I'd be rather scared if a fish infested with monsters gulped me down

Possibly, but I still think it may have been worded differently if they wanted us to believe she was lying.

That could actually happen in both cases (after getting it in OoT and on the moment of his execution in TP... minus the grab it part, of course).

I guess so. It's not really the basis of my argument anyway, it's just worth a mention.

[The Missing Link]

Honestly, I can't say for sure why. But my best guess would be that it's because this is Link's story, not Zelda's(despite the name). They wanted our last image to be the hero with the crest that proves his courage to be shining. And a hint to show us that this is not the scene that we had experienced already.

Bravo. I think you're going the right direction with that idea, but if you'll allow, let me spruce it up a little bit.

In the last scene, let's imagine the what-if here. What if the game showed Zelda's Triforce of Wisdom sitting upon her hand during that scene? Artistically, what we're given is an incomplete picture. Here you would have two Triforces in plain sight, but that's not the full story here; there's yet a third Triforce piece, and we know that neither Link nor Zelda have it. It's Ganondorf's, and even though we're not shown him nor his Triforce, the omission of his Triforce becomes so much more blatant and obvious. Instead of focusing on Link and Zelda in that final scene, our minds would immediately shift to Ganondorf. In Ocarina of Time, we didn't finish the job; we merely postponed it. We won, but it would be a bittersweet victory. And at the end of the game, when the player wants to feel like they did a job well done, the thought of Ganondorf still breathing, still holding that Triforce... that would completely ruin it.

Link's Triforce is present, however, because artistically this speaks a tale unto itself. We just went through an epic battle, a journey of untold proportions, and we're finally done. The story is over. We can breathe a sigh of relief knowing that Hyrule is at peace. I believe from this perspective that the creators truly intended for us to believe that it was the ToC piece from the future, that this is evidence--hard and solid--that, yes, we did travel to the future, that we did something amazing. And the princess will see that and believe. And we see that and believe. We're not thinking about Ganondorf; we're thinking about Link... and a pinch of Zelda.

Artistically, it makes perfect sense for it to be this way.

[FDL]

*Claps* Yeah, thanks for articulating what I was trying to say. I think it does my point more justice than I had given it.

[Duke Serkol]

I'm not sure what is contradicted by saying that it was the Triforce, and that Ganondorf already had it. I mean, you're theory is perfectly valid but I've only seen two people who hold this theory. If the game indeed made it so obvious, as you say, I don't think we'd have these conflicting theories.

We were talking about Link being said to have disappearing in the flow of time and to have lost the Triforce upon leaving the land in TWW. Those are the apparently conflicting statements that can be both true if we assume the King learned of Link's adventure in Termina (if not the whole of it, at least that he did leave Hyrule for new adventures elsewhere).
As for things being obvious or not, I think it was always perfectly clear to the well informed that ALttP was meant as a prequel to LoZ and AoL, but that was still debated for years...

It may not be stated, but they chose to have the story of the interlopers parallel Ganondorf's very much, and then they chose to have Ganondorf mock the Twili for doing what he himself had done. If he had failed, why would he find it funny that others made the same mistake he did? I mean, Ganondorf led a band of magic wielding thieves to steal the Triforce. The Twili were a group of magic wielders who tried to steal the Triforce. They were in the same boat, and if both had failed then I doubt one would gloat

The parallels are there, to be sure. However what Ganon says in his gloating is not that he did the same thing the Interlopers were halted in. I mean, he has, for sure, and was captured not by the Gods/Light Spirits but by Hylian Sages (even more humiliating ). What sets him apart though is the fact the he was chosen to wield the power of the Gods, which is demonstrated to be far above anything the Interlopers ever had.
His words were "To defy the gods with such petty magic, only to be cast aside... How very pathetic." but then he continues "Your people had some skill, to be sure...but they lacked true power. The kind of absolute power that those chosen by the gods wield."
So you see, according to an uninfluenced interpretation of the text, that's what sets them aside: Ganon had the favor of the Gods and was chosen for their power, whereas the Interlopers defied their will (which Ganon did not) and therefore were cast aside.

As for the idea that the "interlopers" were not of Hyrule, it's an interesting idea but not necessarily the correct one. I know that interloper means an invader of some sort, but Ganondorf is described with these words as well. In TWW and OoT, they differentiate between the desert and Hyrule, and appear to imply that they are not technically the same country. Plus, TP itself describes Ganondorf's actions as "invading" Hyrule.

Yes, I realize all of that. This appears to be due to that habit these games have (remember it in OoT?) to use the word Hyrule alternatively for the Kingdom and the world it is in (or should we assume the Goddesses who created Hyrule as told in the legend by the Deku Tree did not create the Desert too? Certainly not).
Basically my point is: why did the Gods intervened in full force when the Interlopers tried to seize the Sacred Realm but never did anything to stop Ganon (in OoT, TP, ALttP etc.) unless summoned by the prayers of the people (TWW in which they still did not take his Triforce part away)? I believe this is because Ganondorf, as a being from the world of Hyrule (born among "those living in the light") had the same right as everybody else to claim the Triforce. The Interlopers however did not. I think the most likely reason for this (given their name, the above and the Majora influence on their design) is that they are Interlopers in the world of Hyrule, not just the kingdom.

Plus, the Twili are said to have appeared amongst those living in the light, which appears to imply a relation the rest of the people of Hyrule, which the light usually refers to.

I believe those living in the light are intended as those the Goddesses created to live in their world. Though it could also mean those who do not meddle with dark magic (which however Ganon does and yet remains unpunished).

Finally, the way that they are said to be "chased from the sacred lands of Hyrule" and "banished" implies that they were from Hyrule.

No, it does not (the word was "across the sacred lands", not "from"). It simply means they were in Hyrule when they were banished, which is perfectly natural since the Sacred Realm they were trying to conquer is normally reached from Hyrule.

My point is, he can't. Why would he wait to get stabbed and slashed repeatedly and then buried under his own castle to use the ToP in OoT?

That's SO different. In OoT Link and Ganondorf were fighting. He wasn't just sitting there waiting to be stabbed even though he could break the chains had he the power he uses later to do just that.

Meh, I'd rather get off this subject. I was just musing on it. We can't be sure what happened that caused Link to relax. Really, nothing is concrete as to why he would feel comfortable enough with Hyrule's affairs that he woudl leave it behind.

So you can't find a better explanation than mine but you're unwilling to take it? (Mine being that Link took off with the Ocarina screwing up Ganny's plans). Or are you saying there is no good explanation?

Here you would have two Triforces in plain sight, but that's not the full story here; there's yet a third Triforce piece, and we know that neither Link nor Zelda have it. It's Ganondorf's, and even though we're not shown him nor his Triforce, the omission of his Triforce becomes so much more blatant and obvious. Instead of focusing on Link and Zelda in that final scene, our minds would immediately shift to Ganondorf.

And if that was the case, they would have had Zelda watch through the window (immediately making everybody think of Ganondorf meeting the King) why?

In Ocarina of Time, we didn't finish the job; we merely postponed it.

Well, in my interpretation, Link and Zelda did accomplish something, they didn't let Ganondorf enter the Sacred Realm (by taking the Ocarina out of reach) and thus caused his later invasion of Hyrule to fail.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 29 March 2007 - 10:05 AM.

[spunky-monkey]

Okay, he never said three years. Several could be 2-9.

Yes it is possible, but Link wouldn't leave Hyrule until he was absolutely certain the past-Ganondorf was dealt with, we may assume his actual execution occurred sometime later, but Link being only 3-ish years older for Majora's Mask is an indication the invasion crisis was swiftly resolved (remember Zelda mentioned in the MM flashback that it was only a short time they had been together).

Fact is, we've never been given any indication that Link could go back that far, while throughout OoT he is only able to return to the time that he last had visited.

Ignoring that Hyrule Castle courtyard scene of course.

If it can do all that, why didn't he just use it for some other thing? Like, why didn't he go and kill Ganondorf as a baby?

Actually a scenario with young Link tampering with the child timeline events isn't a bad idea for a new theory; you could argue that Link attempted to get the Triforce second-time round, unintentionally causing the split all over again and ending up with only the Triforce of Courage.

he knows the hero disappeared into the flow of time, and he may have heard bits of his adventure in Termina (just as we learn of the legend of the fairy in-game) so, if he knows that under any circumstances the Triforce will abandon somebody if they try to leave Hyrule (and I suppose this may be known to him, since Sheik/Zelda demonstrated the Royal Family knows the Triforce well) he can figure it out.

I'm afraid that's all just fanfiction since none of the games have ever confirmed the Triforce couldn't leave Hyrule. It's point of origin is actually the Sacred Realm so who's to say it cannot leave the confines of the surrounding Kingdom? In Majora's Mask there are many characters who notice Link's strange powers, so in probability he still possessed the ToC within Termina.

[Duke Serkol]

I'm afraid that's all just fanfiction since none of the games have ever confirmed the Triforce couldn't leave Hyrule. It's point of origin is actually the Sacred Realm so who's to say it cannot leave the confines of the surrounding Kingdom?

Well, firstly, I would like to note that Termina is another world, not just off the confines of Hyrule's kingdom.
Secondly, I could repeat myself saying that seeing it this way, we don't have to assume that anything we're told in the game(s) is false. That it has been said the Triforce belongs to Hyrule (that it was to be its source of providence) which helps explain the motive behind the Interlopers banishment.
...but I don't like repeating myself, therefore I'll just say: none of the games ever confirmed the Triforce couldn't leave it's proper timeline. Soooo... which fanfic do you like best?

[FDL]

We were talking about Link being said to have disappearing in the flow of time and to have lost the Triforce upon leaving the land in TWW. Those are the apparently conflicting statements that can be both true if we assume the King learned of Link's adventure in Termina (if not the whole of it, at least that he did leave Hyrule for new adventures elsewhere).

Yes, but what I'm saying is that's not really probable and it's too sloppy to be the solution for this. I mean, TP mentions the current Link inheriting the power of the ancient hero, details of which point to the hero being the HoT and the power being the ToC. TP seems to me to be retconning the idea of it leaving him when he went to Termina. Honestly, it's hard to even debate this with you because it seems so obvious to me that the only way what you're saying would work is if there was a single timeline, which there isn't. I mean, I saw the scene with Faron as basically proving that what we thought about TWW was slightly wrong. Plus, I think you're focusing too heavily on the scene with Ganon. Link has apparently had the crest for a very ong time, considering he didn't even know he had said power. If it's not a physical connection to the Triforce as you say, I don't see how that could happen.

As for things being obvious or not, I think it was always perfectly clear to the well informed that ALttP was meant as a prequel to LoZ and AoL, but that was still debated for years...

I'm sorry, but you're theory is not at all "perfectly clear" to everyone else who is at least as informed as you are. If it were really so clear I think you're theory would be held more in the majority.

The parallels are there, to be sure. However what Ganon says in his gloating is not that he did the same thing the Interlopers were halted in. I mean, he has, for sure, and was captured not by the Gods/Light Spirits but by Hylian Sages (even more humiliating ). What sets him apart though is the fact the he was chosen to wield the power of the Gods, which is demonstrated to be far above anything the Interlopers ever had.

But that's the thing, the sages, while commanded by the gods to guard the mirror, were acting under their own volition in their capture of Ganondorf. That's what the divine prank was, I think. They believed that the gods were aiding them in everything they did, which ended up not being the case when Ganondorf survived the attack.

His words were "To defy the gods with such petty magic, only to be cast aside... How very pathetic." but then he continues "Your people had some skill, to be sure...but they lacked true power. The kind of absolute power that those chosen by the gods wield."
So you see, according to an uninfluenced interpretation of the text, that's what sets them aside: Ganon had the favor of the Gods and was chosen for their power, whereas the Interlopers defied their will (which Ganon did not) and therefore were cast aside.

It's not meant to be uninfluenced, though. This is meant to add on to, and strengthen, the knowledge we already have. I could do that with any line to twist it however I wanted. But anyway, that's exactly it. "To defy the gods with such petty magic, only to be cast aside..How very pathetic." We had just seen him do this exact thing in OoT! And in TP it again says he did this. If he had failed in his attempt and the gods had intervened, then he would not gloat in such a way. The act of trying to take the Triforce is in itself defying the gods, and it is not only decided as such depending on what the gods think. He wouldn't mock their being "cast aside" if he too had been.

Yes, I realize all of that. This appears to be due to that habit these games have (remember it in OoT?) to use the word Hyrule alternatively for the Kingdom and the world it is in (or should we assume the Goddesses who created Hyrule as told in the legend by the Deku Tree did not create the Desert too? Certainly not).
Basically my point is: why did the Gods intervened in full force when the Interlopers tried to seize the Sacred Realm but never did anything to stop Ganon (in OoT, TP, ALttP etc.) unless summoned by the prayers of the people (TWW in which they still did not take his Triforce part away)? I believe this is because Ganondorf, as a being from the world of Hyrule (born among "those living in the light") had the same right as everybody else to claim the Triforce. The Interlopers however did not. I think the most likely reason for this (given their name, the above and the Majora influence on their design) is that they are Interlopers in the world of Hyrule, not just the kingdom.

It's a cool idea, but nothing really suggests that it is the case. Again, the Gerudo are not of the Kingdom of Hyrule either. Plus, we have never been given any indication that they wanted anyone to touch the Triforce. The fact that Ganondorf was able to is what makes him believe he was chosen, he had made it into the SR despite the many obstacles in his way. Plus, he wasn't "cast aside" as the Twili were.

I believe those living in the light are intended as those the Goddesses created to live in their world. Though it could also mean those who do not meddle with dark magic (which however Ganon does and yet remains unpunished).

Exactly. Their stories directly parallel one another, and I don't think that it's a coincidence that the descendant of the ones who failed ended up worshipping the one who succeeded.

No, it does not. It simply means they were in Hyrule when they were banished, which is perfectly natural since the Sacred Realm they were trying to conquer is normally reached from Hyrule.

Yeah, it does mean something. It really detracts from the story of Zant and his desire for vengeance if the Twili had come from somewhere else to get into the SR.

That's SO different. In OoT Link and Ganondorf were fighting. He wasn't just sitting there waiting to be stabbed even though he could break the chains had he the power he uses later to do just that.

No, it isn't very different at all. Why would he allow himself to be buried under the tower if he could just use the ToP to do anything he wanted? And in OoT, Ganon is supposedly stronger than Ganondorf. Why wouldn't he have immediately transformed into Ganon? Zelda says herself, Ganondorf could not control he power of the gods. And by then, he had had seven years to figure out how he could!

So you can't find a better explanation than mine but you're unwilling to take it? (Mine being that Link took off with the Ocarina screwing up Ganny's plans). Or are you saying there is no good explanation?

You're not listening at all. I'm saying that Ganondorf was keeping an eye on him and I don't think he would have just let Link go.

And if that was the case, they would have had Zelda watch through the window (immediately making everybody think of Ganondorf meeting the King) why?

Because they wanted it to parallel that scene in an artsy way. Perhaps even make us believe at first that everything had been for naught until we see the ToC on Link's hand.

Well, in my interpretation, Link and Zelda did accomplish something, they didn't let Ganondorf enter the Sacred Realm (by taking the Ocarina out of reach) and thus caused his later invasion of Hyrule to fail.

Now that's just not true. In your interpretation, Link and Zelda went through [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of trouble to defeat Ganon just to be figuratively slapped in the face when the gods decided to give Ganon some power we haven't heard of before. So, they still didn't accomplish anything.

Yes it is possible, but Link wouldn't leave Hyrule until he was absolutely certain the past-Ganondorf was dealt with, we may assume his actual execution occurred sometime later, but Link being only 3-ish years older for Majora's Mask is an indication the invasion crisis was swiftly resolved (remember Zelda mentioned in the MM flashback that it was only a short time they had been together).

Yeah, that's fine, but my point is you can't be sure.

Ignoring that Hyrule Castle courtyard scene of course.

Oh, you mean the vague one that we've already discussed in length? I'm not sure you remember this but in the first courtyard scene Link didn't have the crest on his hand and Navi was with him. Deducing that somehow the MS gained new powers suddenly and that we're seeing the same scene just because Zelda is in the courtyard and looking through the window is foolish.

Actually a scenario with young Link tampering with the child timeline events isn't a bad idea for a new theory; you could argue that Link attempted to get the Triforce second-time round, unintentionally causing the split all over again and ending up with only the Triforce of Courage.

That's not entirely my point, but whatever. Besides, I think Link has a balanced heart and could get the whole thing.

I'm afraid that's all just fanfiction since none of the games have ever confirmed the Triforce couldn't leave Hyrule. It's point of origin is actually the Sacred Realm so who's to say it cannot leave the confines of the surrounding Kingdom? In Majora's Mask there are many characters who notice Link's strange powers, so in probability he still possessed the ToC within Termina.

Yeah, I used to believe that theory as well but TP changed my mind. It was always a theory anyway, nothing in-game ever said this explicitly.

Well, firstly, I would like to note that Termina is another world, not just off the confines of Hyrule's kingdom.
Secondly, I could repeat myself saying that seeing it this way, we don't have to assume that anything we're told in the game(s) is false. That it has been said the Triforce belongs to Hyrule (that it was to be its source of providence) which helps explain the motive behind the Interlopers banishment.
...but I don't like repeating myself, therefore I'll just say: none of the games ever confirmed the Triforce couldn't leave it's proper timeline. Soooo... which fanfic do you like best?

The one that's supported best. There's honestly very little I can think of that goes against the idea. Again, it's hard to really explain how strongly I feel about this, the fact that you didn't feel that the MM references in TWW were retconned baffles me.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 29 March 2007 - 10:37 AM.