141 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

There didn't have to be a rescue of two of every animal, the entire world wasn't flooded, there's more than two people rescued, THERE'S ISLANDS...

Any connection is very, very minimal at best.

There wasn't an ark, either, but a number of flood myths involve chosen survivors fleeing to mountaintops (a Native American one, and one of the Greek ones, off the top of my head), a number of them having the floodwaters destroy or trap an evil beast (Ganon, in this case; the same Native American myth, interestingly). One of the stories has a wind god summoning earth from beneath the sea to undo the flood (in TWW there is a more complicated version of this which has the Deku Tree sending his Koroks between the various islands, traveling the winds of the two wind gods to plant seeds to connect the islands by earth and grove). Other flood myths have wind gods using wind to dry the earth, "seeds of life" being used to reestablish society, and so on.

Again, it's a big melting pot of flood story elements.

[MikePetersSucks]

Exactly my point, which is why it doesn't really have to follow ANY of them, and thus the Flood never has to come undone.

[Arturo]

And those legends say the flood was undone because, you know, we don't live in a huge ocean with a few islands. A flood legend without a happy ending would only be expectable in Rapa Nui's culture, for example.

[Chaltab]

The moment that Nintendo specifically references the after-effects of the flooding of Hyrule is the very moment (and not before) that anything post-Wind Waker becomes non-fanfiction.

Um... Does that mean Phantom Hourglass is fanfiction? This logic is severely flawed.

Edited by Chaltab, 29 April 2007 - 01:22 PM.

[LionHarted]

And those legends say the flood was undone because, you know, we don't live in a huge ocean with a few islands.

Conversely, I say the flood was undone, because, you know, other games don't feature a flooded world with a few islands.

[Arturo]

But other games could happen after TP. Or in another timeline. There is no obligation for ALttP to come after TWW.

[LionHarted]

But other games could happen after TWW. Or in another timeline. There is no obligation for ALttP to come after TP.

[Arturo]

*Bangs head against a door*

You have absolutely not understood me. You cannot use as an argument for a Hyrule rising something that you don't know.

Because your argument was totally circular.

[LionHarted]

You cannot use as an argument for a Hyrule rising something that you don't know.

But I can interpret something as possibly pointing to Hyrule rising, which is more than a post-TP has for the Triforce reuniting.

[FDL]

Um... Does that mean Phantom Hourglass is fanfiction? This logic is severely flawed.

PH doesn't have anything about Hyrule being unflooded, does it?

[The Missing Link]

Um... Does that mean Phantom Hourglass is fanfiction? This logic is severely flawed.

As of 29 April 2007 (read: today), Phantom Hourglass is not released. Therefore, putting it into the timeline at ANY point is pure speculation and therefore could be horribly wrong. Thus, as of present, everything post-Wind Waker is either fanfiction or speculation, neither of which is canon.

Talk to me after the launch date of Hourglass, and I'll gladly change my tune, but not a day before.

[LionHarted]

Talk to me after the launch date of Hourglass, and I'll gladly change my tune, but not a day before.

It releases in less than two months, and still features TWW Link as its main character. Possibilities of a delay aside, how much could possibly change between now and then?

[Arturo]

We knew TP would happen between OoT and TWW. And that wasn't the case.

[Fyxe]

We didn't know that, that was early interview material before the storyline was actually finalised. Actually I can't remember the source of that information, I just know it was early on in the process. Did they contradict anything that has been said since?

[Arturo]

Well, most of the information we received about TP was exaggerated, such as the size of Hyrule, teh number of dungeons or the time it would take to play it through.

[LionHarted]

It was received at least a year and a half before release. Not two months.

[Arturo]

But it hasn't come out yet. Therefore it's uncanonic. Fanfiction

[Raien]

But it hasn't come out yet. Therefore it's uncanonic. Fanfiction

No, it isn't. Context, Arturo.

When the game is only partially developed, major changes can be made including the storyline. When the game is undergoing minor tweaks before the game's release, the story has already been developed and applied to the game. Unless Aonuma is straight out lying, what he says in 2007 is what we will see in the game.

[Arturo]

I am pretty sure that it will be post-TWW. I only say that we cannot speculate about it. At least here. Because it is a little bit pointless.

[Fyxe]

Well, most of the information we received about TP was exaggerated, such as the size of Hyrule, teh number of dungeons or the time it would take to play it through.

Hyrule was *huge*, there were nine/ten dungeons (depending if you count the Twilight Castle or not) and it took me about precisely as long to finish it as they said it would take. So compared to what they said about OoT, there wasn't much exaggeration.

A lot of people just rushed it, frankly.

[Arturo]

But the hours they tiem they said it would take to go to some places was bigger than real, and i remember they said tehere woul be more than 12 dungeons.

[Hero of Legend]

Hyrule was *huge*, there were nine/ten dungeons (depending if you count the Twilight Castle or not) and it took me about precisely as long to finish it as they said it would take. So compared to what they said about OoT, there wasn't much exaggeration.

*Ahem*

'Twilight Palace.' And Hyrule Castle was even less of an excuse for a dungeon.

Other than that, Twilight Princess was a solid title. Better than OoT in some ways, worse in others. Didn’t live up to promise/expectations, but then, few games do.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 30 April 2007 - 10:27 AM.

[FDL]

Eh, I thought TP was better than OoT in everything but side quests, music, and difficulty. And even those things were only by a small margin. However, OoT will always be more special to me because of how obsessed I was with it when I was a kid.

[Hero of Legend]

That, and I'd argue the execution, the feeling of the game, was better overall in OoT. For example; Ganondorf turning into Ganon in OoT? Badass. The same thing happening in TP? Meh.

[FDL]

I agree. Miyamoto's games are superior to Aonuma's in that regard. Even MM, which was possibly the best Zelda ever, didn't have the epic feel of OoT.

[Fyxe]

*Ahem*

'Twilight Palace.' And Hyrule Castle was even less of an excuse for a dungeon.

Firstly, Hyrule Castle was more complex than the final dungeon of TWW, I thought.

Secondly, Twilight CASTLE is the official, spoiler-less name for the corrupted Hyrule Castle, the dungeon you end up in where you meet Midna.

Also, you guys, get over it, OoT was NOT that epic. It had it's moments, but it really, well, wasn't that epic. TP and MM both surpass it in epicness because they actually involve some, y'know, plot. OoT has, about... Three 'epic' moments. Ganondorf on the horse, waking up in the future, and fighting Ganon at the end. And that's it. The rest of the game is fairly standard dungeon hopping. Twilight Princess has a lot more dramatic and excellently directed moments. Come on, the first horse fight with King Bulblin was just awesome.

And MM has a whole epic FEEL. The world is ending. Is that not enough for you? Eh. Can't please some people even if you improve the directing, characterisation and dialogue. No, no, they just want swordy swordy demon Ganon and they're happy.

*Stamps on OoT's endless endless overratedness*

[Hero of Legend]

Firstly, Hyrule Castle was more complex than the final dungeon of TWW, I thought.

But it lacked the neat boss refights, so it evens out.

Secondly, Twilight CASTLE is the official, spoiler-less name for the corrupted Hyrule Castle, the dungeon you end up in where you meet Midna.

Hmm? Official, you say? Beats me. I suppose if you count that, Hyrule Castle gets a little better. Just like... Heheh, I just realized Nintendo still can’t help but take inspiration from good ol’ ALttP. Ah well, the game was better for it.

Also, you guys, get over it, OoT was NOT that epic. It had it's moments, but it really, well, wasn't that epic.

You know, I could go on a rant here, but you do have a point. Truth be told, what I was mostly getting at was how Nintendo said they would 'surpass' OoT, and at times really just failed to live up to that promise. The final battles are just one example. Of course, the original stuff is top notch (except "emotional" Link), but that wasn't the point.

And I can't say I agree with FDL about the other post-OoT games. TWW, I though, was quite good. The opening, the first visit to Hyrule, Ganondorf, the ending. Excellent, all of it. Sure, OoT might have one of the best build-ups for the final battle ever, but Ganondorf's words as he draws his dual swords out of nowhere made for a pretty damn badass scene, too.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 01 May 2007 - 09:57 AM.

[Fyxe]

But it lacked the neat boss refights, so it evens out.

Boss refights aren't anything special. The weird effect used was cool, but other than that the fights were identical as they used to be, which was a shame. Phantom Ganon was the exception, that whole part of the dungeon was very interesting.

Hmm? Official, you say? Beats me. I suppose if you count that, Hyrule Castle gets a little better. Just like... Heheh, I just realized Nintendo still can’t help but take inspiration from good ol’ ALttP. Ah well, the game was better for it.

It's the name given in the official guide, so I think it's a pretty good game to use for that area. On a side note, I loved that section.

I also loved the inspiration from ALttP, such as the sewers, the dungeon cells (two of them, just like in ALttP) and the castle tower.

You know, I could go on a rant here, but you do have a point. Truth be told, what I was mostly getting at was how Nintendo said they would 'surpass' OoT, and at times really just failed to live up to that promise. The final battles are just one example. Of course, the original stuff is top notch (except "emotional" Link), but that wasn't the point.

I always considered the final battles almost a 'bonus'. The game could have finished with Zant if they wanted and ignored Ganon altogether (just increase the size of Twilight Palace and the Twilight Realm and make Zant tougher) but I thought the inclusion of Ganon was clever and full of nice touches. And I liked the Wolf Link against Beast Ganon fight. It was very enjoyable and much better than rehashing the Ganon fight from OoT.

And I can't say I agree with FDL about the other post-OoT games. TWW, I though, was quite good. The opening, the first visit to Hyrule, Ganondorf, the ending. Excellent, all of it. Sure, OoT might have one of the best build-ups for the final battle ever, but Ganondorf's words as he draws his dual swords out of nowhere made for a pretty damn badass scene, too.

I think TWW actually topped OoT for the final sequences and remains the best when it comes to final battles. Oh, sure, Ganon in OoT was cool, but most of that was down to the music and the atmosphere, the fight itself wasn't too special. TWW had an excellent multi-layered fight. And Puppet Ganon was inspired.

I LIKE OoT, but I just think it's overrated, and people are unfairly claiming that it's a better game than TP. TP has so much effort put into it, it's just not fair to claim that OoT is better.

Edited by Fyxe, 01 May 2007 - 10:08 AM.

[Sentient]

I think the reason why OoT's and TWW's final battles were so great was because of the sheer amount of emotion Ganondorf showed. In OoT, he was so desperate to cling on to Hyrule as his own, that he withstood a castle collapsing on top of him, and when he transformed into Ganon, just the sound of him screaming with pure malice was excellent. And in TWW, Ganondorf had come so close to having his wishes granted, for Hyrule to be his, then Daphnes comes along and wishes for him and Hyrule to drown. Then Ganondorf goes nuts. A single thought goes through his mind: "If I'm going to die, I'll take these brats with me". That, in my opinion, is why those two final battles were the best in the series.

[Chaltab]

I think the reason why OoT's and TWW's final battles were so great was because of the sheer amount of emotion Ganondorf showed. In OoT, he was so desperate to cling on to Hyrule as his own, that he withstood a castle collapsing on top of him, and when he transformed into Ganon, just the sound of him screaming with pure malice was excellent. And in TWW, Ganondorf had come so close to having his wishes granted, for Hyrule to be his, then Daphnes comes along and wishes for him and Hyrule to drown. Then Ganondorf goes nuts. A single thought goes through his mind: "If I'm going to die, I'll take these brats with me". That, in my opinion, is why those two final battles were the best in the series.

Amen to that. The emotional resonacnce of TP's final battle was nothing by comparison. (Not that it wasn't a good game, simply saying that the final battle wasn't as good story-wise.)

But which game is better really isn't what this thread is about, is it? This argument just came from my comment that Phantom Hourglass takes place after Wind Waker?

I think the fact that it stars the same Link pretty much confirms that.

PH doesn't have anything about Hyrule being unflooded, does it?

I can't possibly know THAT, and neither can you. I was simply saying the statement that "Anything after TWW is fanfiction" is obviously untrue unless the timeline placement of TPH changes within the next few months. And the original stated timleine placement of TP didn't change any. It was originally said to be 'several decades' after Ocarina of Time, and that's ultiamtely what it ended up being based on the evidence the game gives us.

Edited by Chaltab, 01 May 2007 - 01:22 PM.