141 replies to this topic

[CID Farwin]

Well, here they are:

#1Nintendo's fractured timeline


Child Prong

_____/[MM]----[TP]-----(\)
[OoT](---------------------)[ALttP]--[KnS]--[LA]--[LoZ]--[AoL]
-------\ --[TWW]--[PH]--(/)

Adult Prong


#2The Light Force Timeline

[TMC]---[FS]---[FSA]

and finally:
#3The Oracle Timeline

[OoS]
X
[OoA]

Wow, that was amazingly simple. And now let me defend it.

Timeline 1:
1AoL is the sequel to LoZ
2ALttP is the prequel to Zelda I&II
3KnS is the sequel to ALttP
4LA was released as (being in the context of) a sequel to ALttP
5OoT was made as the IW as stated during its development
6MM is an(I hope) undisputed sequel to OoT
7in an (alleged) interview with Aonuma, it is stated that a split happenes at the end of OoT. TWW takes place after the "adult ending" of OoT and TP takes place after the "child ending"
8ALttP through AoL(inclusive) could go after either ending of OoT, either way requiring a cartload of fanfiction, as does a three-pronged timeline.

Timeline 2:
Your basic life force timeline, as I understand it, with no effort made to incorporate it into the triforce timeline.

Timeline 3:
The oracles, which could go in either order, have no obvious place in the timeline aside from a raft at the end that from what I understand doesn't look like the raft from LA, and even if one was to put the Oracles before LA, its timeline placement is also a little scetchy, so it's jsut better to exclude them entirely.

There you have it: a timeline diagnostic with (I hope) as little fanfiction as possible. As for any inconsistencies that may arise, well, let Nintendo answer for those; they're the ones who made them.

Edited by CID Farwin, 19 March 2007 - 06:23 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

I don't think the Oracle games should be in a free standing timeline. TMC seems to make a few references to it, most importantly the witch's figurine.

And the Four Sword in the secret dungeon seems to connect TMC to ALttP.

[The Missing Link]

Dodongo dislikes dangling timelines.

[SOAP]

I think the simmilarities are due to the fact that TMC incorporated parts of the scrapped third Oracle game. I'm very tempted to pair TMC with Oracles. It could easily be the same Link despite differences in artwork.

[Crazy Penguin]

I think the simmilarities are due to the fact that TMC incorporated parts of the scrapped third Oracle game.

It did?

I'm very tempted to pair TMC with Oracles. It could easily be the same Link despite differences in artwork.

In The Minish Cap Link doesn't have a hat to begin with, Nayru, Din and Farore don't appear to know Link, Syrup doesn't have an apprentice and several characters such as Malon and the postman appear with pointed ears, whereas they had round ears in the Oracle games. Link and Zelda meet for the first time in the Oracle games whereas they were childhood friends in The Minish Cap.

[MikePetersSucks]

These fragments, in of themselves, are certainly plothole-less and fanfiction-less as far as I can tell. Though I have to agree with TML with hating dangling timelines and such.

Let's see you try and piece them together, now

[CID Farwin]

These fragments, in of themselves, are certainly plothole-less and fanfiction-less as far as I can tell. Though I have to agree with TML with hating dangling timelines and such.

I am not a big fan of dangling timelines either, I just had to put that out there because that's all we're given, and I'm sick of people breaking the timeline to fit their theories.

Let's see you try and piece them together, now tongue.gif

I'll get back to you on that, although TMC goes first for me.

Edited by CID Farwin, 31 March 2007 - 08:02 PM.

[The Missing Link]

I am not a big fan of dangling timelines either, I just had to put that out there because that's all we're given, and I'm sick of people breaking the timeline to fit their theories.

I will say that it's looking like we're going to have to accept dangling timelines. I just hate the prospect of it, and I have a propensity personally to add enough fanfiction to ensure that that doesn't happen, but that's me.

[CID Farwin]

Being also a hater of dangling timelines, I now have my personal timeline:

[TMC]---[OoT]---[TWW]-[PH]---[FS]-[FSA]---[ALttP]-[KnS]-[LA]---[LoZ]-[AoL]
__________|
__________[MM]---[TP]
The oracles really could go pretty much anywhere.

Edited by CID Farwin, 12 April 2007 - 03:04 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Hmm. And why do you put the majority of the series after TWW?

[CID Farwin]

Hmm. And why do you put the majority of the series after TWW?

That's an interesting subject. For one, I hate the stigma that nothing comes after TWW. But aside from that, it occured to me that if I, and people like me, are going to be adamant about how OoT is the imprisoning war, then that would mean that ALttP comes after the OoT future, where Ganondorf is sealed, which would mean that ALttP would (somehow) go after TWW.

There's also other reasons regarding the way I formulated my timeline, but I regret I don't have the time right now to specify them.

[LionHarted]

For a post-Adult placement, don't focus on Ganon being sealed, just focus on the Sacred Realm being sealed. Including Ganon and the possession of the Triforce in a link between OoT and ALttP is just full of inconsistencies, since he has neither the Trident nor the full Triforce in OoT, but has both in ALttP. The game only ever refers to the Dark World itself being sealed; we are told that Ganon was unable to get out when he entered, not that he himself was physically sealed.

The realm was sealed during the war; Ganon reentered it sometime later. This is true in any timeline; yours can simply avoid adding a second sealing war to the mix by keeping the realm itself sealed from OoT all the way to ALttP.

Edited by LionHarted, 23 April 2007 - 09:38 AM.

[Arturo]

*sings*

Ganondorf HAS the Trident in OoT

Whoever has eyes and ears, listen to me and accept the evidence: Phantom Ganon's weapon is the Trident.

[LionHarted]

Ganondorf HAS the Trident in OoT

Whoever has eyes and ears, listen to me and accept the evidence: Phantom Ganon's weapon is the Trident.

1) Phantom Ganon =/= Ganon;
2) Phantom Ganon's trident looks considerably different than all three of the Tridents in the other games;
3) Phantom Ganon does not take a pig form like all other Ganons with Tridents

Conclusions: Phantom Ganon's Trident does not do what Ganon's Trident does; Ganon never uses it either way.

Edited by LionHarted, 23 April 2007 - 03:35 PM.

[CID Farwin]

Conclusions: Phantom Ganon's Trident does not do what Ganon's Trident does; Ganon never uses it either way.

since when has the trident ever done anything? As far as I know, the only game where it (maybe) has significance is FSA.

2) Phantom Ganon's trident looks considerably different than all three of the Tridents in the other games;

the Master Sword has a habit of changing from game to game, does that mean it's a different Master Sword?

[Fyxe]

the Master Sword has a habit of changing from game to game, does that mean it's a different Master Sword?

No, because it's CALLED the Master Sword in every game. Ganon's trident only recieved a name in FSA. Before then it was just a nameless trident. Obviously some of the tridents are the same because they look practically identical, but we can't say they're all the same, especially not Phantom Ganon's one.

[Arturo]

Thanks, CID Farwin.

I am going to ask you something, Lion. If the Trident of Phantom Ganon (which is a property of Ganondorf in OoT, tehrefore the Trident is his) has nothing to do with Ganon's one, why did they make ON PURPOSE the FSA Trident look like the OoT one? I mean, you might think that they are totally different because the spikes don't point in the same way. But look at the symbol on the centre of the Trident. In ALttP, the first game peforming the Trident and which FSA imitated because it was supposed to be its prequel (though other people think it's a sequel, something I find illogical. Don't look at my timeline. What I put there is just a way of escaping from nihilism, which I hate more than misplacing FSA... alas), the Trident had a skull. Did FSA Trident have a skull? NO

(Did LA Ganon have the Trident? I don't remember right now... But, of course, it was dark, so it had no symbol...)

Look at the OoX Trident, the second game(s) that performed the Trident (yes, I know it appears in KnS and BS LoZ,but I can't speak about those). This Trident had no symbol on the centre. Did FSA's Trident have no symbol as well? No.

But the FSA Trident has a symbol on the centre, one I have seen somewhere.... it's an orange thing. Where does this appear? I remember this... somewhere... OH YES! it's in Phantom Ganon's Trident!


DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO RELATION BETWEEN THOSE TRIDENTS WHEN THE FSA IS CLEARLY INSPIRED ON THE OOT ONE? OR IS IT JUST BECAUSE IT FITS BETTER YOUR TIMELINE?

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•  ganon_OoX.jpg   13.72K   4 downloads
•  ganon_FSA.png   88.58K   8 downloads
•  phantom_Ganon.gif   33.15K   7 downloads

[LionHarted]

Ganon is a pig. Phantom Ganon is not.

Phantom Ganon's trident bears not the same shape as the Ganon trident, nor does it do the same thing (transform him into a pig).

Tell me why they should be the same.

FSA established that the Trident is tied to the Ganon pig form; I think that makes it clear that it's intended to be associated with pig Ganon, not pigless Ganondorf.

Edited by LionHarted, 24 April 2007 - 10:05 AM.

[Jumbie]

Sorry for answering questions that Arturo should, but he's not there right now and I actually still support a timeline that he feels forced not to anymore, of which this trident issue is a plot point, so I may be qualified as well

Ganon is a pig. Phantom Ganon is not.

So? Ganondorf is well able to lend his weapon to his servant, seeing as he already lends his horse to him.

Phantom Ganon's trident bears not the same shape as the Ganon trident,

The shape is almost the same in OoT and FSA, like Arturo showed.

nor does it do the same thing (transform him into a pig).

There is actually a simple explanation to this: the trident first gained the transforming ability when it absorbed the essence of the dead King of Darkness, Ganon the pig. Many say this is never stated like that in FSA, but even if it should be fanfic, it goes very well to explain why it transforms a Gerudo man into a demon that has been alive before.

And anyway, the pig demon form is by no means the compulsory appearance that the King of Darkness/Evil King always takes, as seen in OoT, TWW and TP, where he can change from human to demon and back at will. It makes sense to assume Ganon has this changing ability in every single game where he appears in pig form only, besides Oracles where he never was human to begin with.

Tell me why they should be the same.

The reason you brought up the trident issue was because it apparently hinders a smooth transition directly from OoT to ALttP, a segment that for example my timeline has like that. But, saying OoT's trident is the same as in all other games will conveniently negate this particular hindrance, so that's why in my opinion they should be the same. Personal preference. I won't deny that stating that serves my timeline, but on the other hand my placement is not *built* on this as some fact. It's just a vague attachment point for a tiny bit of fanfic to better connect OoT > ALttP > OoX+LA > FSA.

FSA established that the Trident is tied to the Ganon pig form; I think that makes it clear that it's intended to be associated with pig Ganon, not pigless Ganondorf.

In OoT, Ganondorf used the Triforce of Power to become a pig, and he carried two huge swords in the final fight that may or may not be a transfigured form of the trident. This is extreme fanfiction, but as far as I can think of, assuming such a thing doesn't conflict with anything. If people can assume a new Hyrule is discovered after TWW, I may as well assume the swords are a magically transformed trident

Anyway, the original way to become a pig was the ToP. And this demon form may have been housed inside the trident after Ganon's demise in one game (depending on your placement, several are candidates for that, like ALttP or Oracles). That's why Zelda in FSA calls Ganon the ancient demon reborn, clearly saying that the *demon form* was reborn, not the Gerudo form (although that one was reincarnated for sure, too, but Zelda doesn't have to know it).
The trident, by the time of FSA, grants the power to become the King of Darkness, something which the ToP never was said to do, although it effectively did. Again, the title King of Darkness does not necessarily imply that Ganon has to take on pig form. Just because he is in FSA, does not mean that the trident forced this appearance on him.
I find it sensibly to assume the trident gives him the power to transform into a pig demon, but like the Ganon(dorf)s in OoT, TWW and TP, he should be able to switch back to human whenever he likes. It just wouldn't have benefitted him in the boss fight if he had done so, and it spared the programmers effort to create his Gerudo sprite (which I'm personally glad for, because this way allows to make one's own picture of what he looked like).

[The Missing Link]

The shape is almost the same in OoT and FSA, like Arturo showed.

If the shapes of the OoT and FSA tridents are "almost the same," then so are the shapes of the OoT and LttP game sprite's tridents. Each has similarities and differences. The $64,000 question, of course, is the following: How much of the similarities/differences is due to artistic license and how much is truly intended on the part of the developers.

This question will likely remain an unknown, but you have to answer this question before you can answer anything else.

[LionHarted]

And anyway, the pig demon form is by no means the compulsory appearance that the King of Darkness/Evil King always takes

Except when he has the Trident.

as seen in OoT, TWW and TP, where he can change from human to demon and back at will.

And notably doesn't have the Trident, with a pig form that is not blue and quite frankly looks remarkably different from Ganon in the 2D games.

Anyway, the original way to become a pig was the ToP.

I'd love to see some proof for this.

Edited by LionHarted, 24 April 2007 - 11:32 AM.

[Showsni]

I'd love to see some proof for this.

 08.jpg   238.26K   15 downloads  09.jpg   234.32K   13 downloads

What do you mean, not canon?

[Hero of Slime]

If that is canon then the triforce of power is a red triangular pyramid.

[LionHarted]

Why didn't Link become a pig in the games, then?
Or the King? etc. etc.

[Hero of Legend]

Holy cow, I remember that comic!

"NOOOOooo!!!" - Link, best line ever

Why didn't Link become a pig in the games, then?
Or the King? etc. etc.

Because, "he had power without wisdom."

Go, powers of nerdness!



...And no, I don't have anything useful to say.

And notably doesn't have the Trident, with a pig form that is not blue and quite frankly looks remarkably different from Ganon in the 2D games.

Ganon is blue in TP and TWW.



...No, I don't consider that useful.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 24 April 2007 - 02:58 PM.

[LionHarted]

Ganon is blue in TP and TWW.

Ganon is not blue in TP (unless gray is the new blue), and doesn't appear in TWW.

What are you smoking?

Edited by LionHarted, 24 April 2007 - 02:59 PM.

[Arturo]

Why didn't Link become a pig in the games, then?
Or the King? etc. etc.

In OoT he became a Pig. That's very clear. He didn't have the Trident there:

This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda. To give that game a little "secret" recognition, I thought that keeping the "pigness" in Ganon would be the correct course. So we made him a beast "with the feeling of a pig."

And in LoZ he was a pig without the Trident.

The Trident has NEVER been associated to Ganon's pig form until FSA. And FSA explains why:

Evil...spirit of
magic trident.

There is an evil spirit within the Trident, which happens to make the holder an ancient demon reborn who is pig Ganon. Wouldn't it be logical that it has those powers because of its former holder, that is, Ganon?

[LionHarted]

In OoT he became a Pig. That's very clear. He didn't have the Trident there:
And in LoZ he was a pig without the Trident.

1) Re-read my post, sir.
2) In the remake and post-ALttP official art of LoZ, he has a Trident.

[Hero of Legend]

Ganon is not blue in TP (unless gray is the new blue)

Clear shade of blue (unless you are colour-blind).

and doesn't appear in TWW.

Except in the opening (which is black and white) and in the form of Puppet Ganon (who is purple). Oh yeah, and he's clearly blue in the stained glass windows of the Master Sword chamber.

Which, incidentally, retcons your other little point about OoT Ganon.

What are you smoking?

Crack. But don't tell anyone.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 24 April 2007 - 03:27 PM.

[LionHarted]

Clear shade of blue (unless you are colour-blind).

Umm. Nope.

Contrast:

http://static.flickr...16171eef7_o.jpg -- TP
http://www.zeldanede...zen/09ganon.png -- FSA

Except in the opening (which is black and white) and in the form of Puppet Ganon (who is purple). Oh yeah, and he's clearly blue in the stained glass windows of the Master Sword chamber.

I'm talking about Ganondorf actually turning into a beast.