141 replies to this topic

[Hero of Legend]

Umm. Nope.

Umm. Yup.

Contrast:

http://static.flickr...16171eef7_o.jpg -- TP
http://www.zeldanede...zen/09ganon.png -- FSA

Blue and gray =/= not blue.

What FSA Ganon doesn't have is furr, but then TP Ganon doesn't look like any other Ganon regardless.

I'm talking about Ganondorf actually turning into a beast.

Irrelevant. He is blue in TWW. Fact.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 24 April 2007 - 03:53 PM.

[Chaltab]

2) In the remake and post-ALttP official art of LoZ, he has a Trident.

There's a remake of the first Zelda game?

Irrelevant. He is blue in TWW. Fact.

Um.. No... There is no Ganon in TWW. And Ganondorf is kind of green.

Edited by Chaltab, 24 April 2007 - 03:46 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Yeah, and he's brown in that one. But LionFarted here conveniently ignores this fact.

Um.. No... There is no Ganon in TWW.

Read what I say.

And Ganondorf is kind of green.

No shit!

Edited by Hero of Legend, 24 April 2007 - 03:54 PM.

[LionHarted]

Yeah, and he's brown in that one. But LionFarted here conveniently ignores this fact.

I wouldn't call that brown. :/

There's a remake of the first Zelda game?

Zelda 1 BS ring any bells?

Edited by LionHarted, 24 April 2007 - 03:57 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

No, but this is.

[LionHarted]

Yep. He is brown in that one. And the main character is a dude from the future, or whatever.

[Arturo]

I love the way you use canon. If he has the Trident, you mention it. If it's brown, it's wrong. Lovely.

[LionHarted]

Alright. I drop the BS reference. But the official art is still there, and still blue.

[Arturo]

It's green. And it's not official art. It's froma German guide. That's hardly the official NoJ art

[Chaltab]

Zelda 1 BS ring any bells?

A remake with a guy from the future is hardly solid evidence, IMO.

I think we're pretty much ignoring the obvious. Ganondorf is transformed into Ganon by two different things--either the Trident, or the Triforce of Power.

In Oracle, FSA, and ALTTP, he has the trident, and in FSA that's explicitly what transformed him. He was blue in all three games.

In Ocarina and Twilight Princess, he transforms using the Triforce of Power. In both games, he's black.

In LOZ, Ganon was turquoise, and has no Trident. However, when LOZ was made, there was no Ganondorf. That was the first we'd seen of the character, and he was simply introduced as "Prince Evil Gannon"--it was before the mythos of Ganondorf had been written, and I'm sure Ganon would have the Trident if Nintendo were to remake it today.

Edited by Chaltab, 24 April 2007 - 04:16 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

In Ocarina and Twilight Princess, he transforms using the Triforce of Power. In both games, he's black.

Actually, he is green in OoT and gray-ish with blue strokes in Twilight Princess.

Also, a much more sensible 'rule' for Ganon's colour is this - When the Oracles were released Ganon was blue, and he has been since. No game (other than ports) have shown him to be green past that point. Coincidence? Not likely.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 24 April 2007 - 04:32 PM.

[Jumbie]

The $64,000 question, of course, is the following: How much of the similarities/differences is due to artistic license and how much is truly intended on the part of the developers.

This question will likely remain an unknown, but you have to answer this question before you can answer anything else.

I'd say it is entirely artistic license, knowing that Nintendo does not drop hints as subtle as those ones. The same goes for Ganon's fur colour, obviously. All this ado about his colour is highly ridiculous. Neither his fur colour nor the shape of his trident have any storyline significance whatsoever, it's merely a matter of design. But it seems this explanation is too simple for most people.

In LOZ, Ganon was turquoise, and has no Trident.

He was turquoise but also turned to red. I think it's just because blue and red are the colours that almost all of LoZ's enemies have.

and I'm sure Ganon would have the Trident if Nintendo were to remake it today.

Yes, that's why he does have it in BS Zelda

Heh, now I feel like I was Fyxe...

[Sentient]

So? Ganondorf is well able to lend his weapon to his servant, seeing as he already lends his horse to him.

Since when did Ganondorf have a flying horse? I distinctly remember it being firmly attached to the ground whenever we saw it.

The shape is almost the same in OoT and FSA, like Arturo showed.

Phantom Ganon's trident has it's prongs made up of three blades. Every trident Ganon has wielded does not have blades for prongs.

In OoT, Ganondorf used the Triforce of Power to become a pig, and he carried two huge swords in the final fight that may or may not be a transfigured form of the trident. This is extreme fanfiction, but as far as I can think of, assuming such a thing doesn't conflict with anything. If people can assume a new Hyrule is discovered after TWW, I may as well assume the swords are a magically transformed trident tongue.gif

The former has evidence, the latter does not. =/

Ganon is blue in TP and TWW.

Green =/= blue

Clear shade of blue (unless you are colour-blind).

Green =/= blue

Oh yeah, and he's clearly blue in the stained glass windows of the Master Sword chamber.

The windows also depict the Sheikah symbol as having only one eyelash. Not very reliable source if you ask me.

[Jumbie]

Since when did Ganondorf have a flying horse? I distinctly remember it being firmly attached to the ground whenever we saw it.

This is obviously not an ordinary horse. Its red eyes, its unnatural size, and the fact that it's ethereal in TP (you can ride through it) make it seem like Ganondorf's horse has some demonic features to it. And Ganondorf, or his phantom in this case, can lift each and everything with a little psychokinetic magic.

Phantom Ganon's trident has it's prongs made up of three blades. Every trident Ganon has wielded does not have blades for prongs.

The middle prong of FSA's trident could be a blade, it's hard to discern.

The former has evidence, the latter does not. =/

TWW just says that a new land *could* be found(ed). In the end it even goes to some lengths to deny that it'll be called Hyrule. So the best that TWW does is speculate about the future, which is by no means certain to occur like that some day (just like the "sleeps forever" line in ALttP, which was also just the game wildly speculating about the future. Eh, sorry for bringing up that one, we've discussed it countless times before, so please let's not again).

Whereas I don't need OoT explicitly telling us that a trident could magically be split into two swords - it's possible already from someone's own assumption, as long as it's not objected by a line in some gaming going "The trident's shape is rock-solid and cannot be altered".

The windows also depict the Sheikah symbol as having only one eyelash. Not very reliable source if you ask me.

This reminds me, I found another oddity on the stained glass windows. I'm gonna make a thread.

Edited by Jumbie, 24 April 2007 - 05:46 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

Yep. He is brown in that one. And the main character is a dude from the future, or whatever.

Not the future, a different world.

[FDL]

Yeah, I'm 99% sure that BS Zelda is exactly what LoZ would be if it were remade(except for the main character). Just because the main character's some weirdo from another world doesn't mean the designs aren't canon. In fact, I'd say these designs are more canon because they're newer.

[Sentient]

This is obviously not an ordinary horse. Its red eyes, its unnatural size, and the fact that it's ethereal in TP (you can ride through it) make it seem like Ganondorf's horse has some demonic features to it.

Ganondorf's horse is also a breed of horse (Solid Black Gerudo Stallion), which suggests that red eyes and a large body are normal characteristics of that breed of horse. And how can you ride through Ganondorf's horse in TP? Everytime I get close to it, I come into contact with Ganondorf and that knocks me off Epona. If you can ride through it, it's probably nothing more than lazy programming.

The middle prong of FSA's trident could be a blade, it's hard to discern.

But that's still not all the prongs.

TWW just says that a new land *could* be found(ed). In the end it even goes to some lengths to deny that it'll be called Hyrule.

The game only goes to lengths to say that the land Link and Tetra find willnot be Hyrule. What if they don't find a new land? What if the old one (or at least the land where it once stood) was somehow exposed to the sun again? That could be called Hyrule if a new country is built on it, since Link and Tetra didn't find it.

[Hero of Legend]

Green =/= blue

Except he's not green at all.

Green =/= blue

Dittto.

Please, don't bother me with your petty little remarks. Especially when they’re blatantly wrong. Come again when you have something remotely intelligent to say.

[Arturo]

The game only goes to lengths to say that the land Link and Tetra find willnot be Hyrule. What if they don't find a new land? What if the old one (or at least the land where it once stood) was somehow exposed to the sun again? That could be called Hyrule if a new country is built on it, since Link and Tetra didn't find it.

It could be true, but it has ABSOLUTELY no evidence taht it will be this way. It's not impossible that a magical item more powerful than teh Triforce, called Triumph Fork existed and that David Jr., in a desperate attempt for escaping from Tingle's island wished over it for the Great Sea's disappearance, which would cause Hyrule's return.

And please, HoL, there is no need for insults.

Edited by Arturo, 25 April 2007 - 08:47 AM.

[Raien]

My two cents:

The entire point of Ganon's pig form is that it acts as the incarnation of Ganondorf's greed. Unless the colour has some similar meaning, I don't see why it matters. Do you really think the developers argued over his colour as well? I doubt they did.

Likewise, the Trident never came to bare relevance until FSA. It served as part of the image, but its existence never served as a plot device. So does it matter whether we see it in his possession in the original or the BS remake? The Trident apparently wasn't used by Ganon in the BS remake, which further suggests it had no real purpose beyond the image.

[The Missing Link]

Likewise, the Trident never came to bare relevance until FSA. It served as part of the image, but its existence never served as a plot device. So does it matter whether we see it in his possession in the original or the BS remake? The Trident apparently wasn't used by Ganon in the BS remake, which further suggests it had no real purpose beyond the image.

Agreed. This is one of those cases where meaning is applied post facto to a whole series, and Nintendo is extremely bad about making such things work cleanly. You can obviously link them all together--which may very well have been the intent--but then the timing of all the games goes out of whack. You can not link them together, but then that plot point becomes needlessly complicated and almost trivial; you'd have to explain why Nintendo made such a fuss over the trident when they could've found a better way to make the case for Ganon.

The middle road obviously is that there was a need to add a nostalgic factor (since this game would likely be played by strong veterans of the series rather than first-time players), more art than science, if you'll follow the analogy. That solves everything on the creation side, but interpretation--on our parts--cannot purely accept art as art; there must be reason.

[LionHarted]

Well, in a strict sense, in pretty much any other storyline these things are expected to have some overarching purpose. Zelda is a unique series in that the storytelling sucks overall because developers write stories by the seat of their pants and include references and design similarities simply for the hell of it. In the end, what details are or are not included in any given game (Triforce in TP?) don't make the slightest bit of difference; all that really matters is what the idea is supposed to be.

But we're going to argue details until the end of the timeline, so whatever.

Edited by LionHarted, 25 April 2007 - 11:08 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

"Bluer than thou!" "Bwahaha"

[Raien]

Well, in a strict sense, in pretty much any other storyline these things are expected to have some overarching purpose. Zelda is a unique series in that the storytelling sucks overall because developers write stories by the seat of their pants and include references and design similarities simply for the hell of it. In the end, what details are or are not included in any given game (Triforce in TP?) don't make the slightest bit of difference; all that really matters is what the idea is supposed to be.

Zelda is unique because it doesn't treat everything as literal. In the world of Hyrule, emotions are semi-physical and are often defined by the magical powers, such as Light or Darkness. Because of this, magic only serves the moral that appears in each game, practically ignoring what occurs in other games. For example, Twilight Princess had a "power is corruptive" moral, which was defined by the Fused Shadows. Yet this moral, and thus the power, is non-existent in any other game.

To understand the Zelda universe, you have to look at things laterally. Some constants will never change because the morals are important to the storyline, but others are tweaked to fit the individual games. This is not inconsistent, but it does make things confusing.

[Fyxe]

Zelda is unique because it doesn't treat everything as literal.

Not to be flippant, but metaphors aren't exactly unique.

[Sentient]

Except he's not green at all.

I must have a different version of TP to you.

Dittto.

Please, don't bother me with your petty little remarks. Especially when they’re blatantly wrong. Come again when you have something remotely intelligent to say.

So when someone has a different opinion than you, it means they don't have anything intelligent to say?

Yay! Anti-social behaviour!

It could be true, but it has ABSOLUTELY no evidence taht it will be this way.

Apart from the Deku Tree's dream that he will connect all the islands together, and is already trying to do so. Why would the Deku Tree attempt something that is unachievable? Doesn't sound like the behaviour of an incredibly wise forest deity to me.

[LionHarted]

Interestingly, on the Deku Tree point, the Deku Tree's dream is to connect the islands together. However you believe this will happen, it inevitably involves some landmass taking on the physical space where Hyrule used to be, and something happening to the seawater. He emphasizes that Ganondorf is attempting to prevent this dream from coming to pass; his Koroks emphasize that the withering of the trees has been caused by Ganondorf's curse, with the holy Forest Water being able to make them flourish despite the curse. That they are surprised at this suggests that it is a relatively new phenomenon.

Considering that monsters have apparently appeared in the Great Sea only recently, I would wager that the curse is on the sea itself, and that the reason that the trees die is that they are unable to flourish off of the cursed seawaters, and so they wither. This lends a bit of credence, if correct, to the idea that the trees exist to slowly drain the Great Sea, connecting the islands together in that way.

The old kingdom is destroyed either way; whatever remains of it lies in ruins (according to general consensus) so this would in no way violate the King's wish.

Edited by LionHarted, 25 April 2007 - 12:55 PM.

[Raien]

Not to be flippant, but metaphors aren't exactly unique.

No, but the manner in which they are used in the Zelda games is unique.

In most fantasy games, the moral points are strictly related to the actions of the characters. When the good guys and bad guys meet, they force each other to explain their motivations, thus the moral points are made clear. Magic, as an entity, rarely sides with good or evil (if I am mistaken, please say so), only serving as the means for the characters to carry out their actions.

In Zelda games, motivations behind the characters are never properly explored; it is a given that characters are good or evil. But what happens is that good and evil become manifested as magical. Ganondorf has an evil heart, which becomes the power of Darkness. The Twili ancestors' malice becomes manifested as the evil power of the Twilight Mirror and the Arbiter's Grounds. In short, magic is the result of good and evil; the physical concentration of emotions.

Edited by jhurvid, 25 April 2007 - 01:25 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

I must have a different version of TP to you.

Different computer monitor, too, since there's a picture of him right at the top of this page, and he most definitely is not green.

So when someone has a different opinion than you, it means they don't have anything intelligent to say?

"Green =/= blue" =/= Intelligent.

Yay! Anti-social behaviour!

Yay! Hypocrisy!

Edited by Hero of Legend, 25 April 2007 - 04:20 PM.

[FDL]

Interestingly, on the Deku Tree point, the Deku Tree's dream is to connect the islands together. However you believe this will happen, it inevitably involves some landmass taking on the physical space where Hyrule used to be, and something happening to the seawater. He emphasizes that Ganondorf is attempting to prevent this dream from coming to pass; his Koroks emphasize that the withering of the trees has been caused by Ganondorf's curse, with the holy Forest Water being able to make them flourish despite the curse. That they are surprised at this suggests that it is a relatively new phenomenon.

Considering that monsters have apparently appeared in the Great Sea only recently, I would wager that the curse is on the sea itself, and that the reason that the trees die is that they are unable to flourish off of the cursed seawaters, and so they wither. This lends a bit of credence, if correct, to the idea that the trees exist to slowly drain the Great Sea, connecting the islands together in that way.

The old kingdom is destroyed either way; whatever remains of it lies in ruins (according to general consensus) so this would in no way violate the King's wish.

Actually, not true. Unflooding Hyrule would not connect the islands at all. In fact the idea of all the people of the new country "joining hands" as the GDT says would be ruined heavily by this as everyone would be on the mountains and they'd have a way tougher time visiting one another.