Okay, I was reading over the "Observation on the Sages" thread and I started thinking, with all the debate over sages and how many and what their purpose is etc. it deems a closer look storyline wise.
Starting with OoT, we know of two sages which existed before that time, Kaepora Gaebora and Rauru. Later in the game there are seven other sages who seal Ganon.
In WW there are four sages, two dead and two living, with the job of powering the Master Sword, these are arguably not related to the sages of OoT.
ALttP there are seven descendents of the sages, obviously not related to any of the previous sages known in the games because of their purely Hylian nature.
This can imply a few things, in the multiple timeline theory it shows a different set of seven sages being called to seal Ganon in an Imprisoning War which is not represented in any of the games. This imprisoning war would simply come in the time period between OoT and ALttP. The two sages of WW are not related to the sages of either of the other games and reasonably so because of the timeline split during OoT.
In a single timeline it means that the Imprisoning War comes after WW and that a new set of sages are created at that time, all of Hylian descent. There is no information regarding any of the other sages in any of the other games. None of the sages are related whatsoever. In either situation we have to assume the Imprisoning War comes directly before ALttP (chronologically speaking, there would of course be many hundreds of years between)
Any critiques to this? Any other ideas of this same vein?
State of the Sages
Started by
Guest_BlackHawkA100_*
, Oct 11 2004 12:46 PM
112 replies to this topic
#2
MikePetersSucks
-
- ZL Staff
-
- 4,174 posts
Actual Japanese Person
- Gender:Male
Posted 11 October 2004 - 01:06 PM
Um, I do not get this topic at all. there's just 7 sages in each game, some which don't appear, some of different races. What's your point?
#3
Kairu Hakubi
-
- ZL Staff
-
- 850 posts
Master
Posted 12 October 2004 - 09:19 AM
Kaepora Gaebora is just rumored to be the reincarnation of a sage.. that doesnt mean it was a recent sage or a sage from rauru's era or anything else conclusive.
#4
Guest_Kishi_*
Guest_Kishi_*
-
- Guests
Posted 12 October 2004 - 09:43 AM
The maidens in A Link to the Past, as well as Sahasralah and Azinah, are direct descendants of the sages described in that game's prologue, who are the sages in Ocarina of Time.
#5
Koroks Rock
-
- ZL Staff
-
- 943 posts
Verum per Fingo
- Location:World of fiction
Posted 12 October 2004 - 10:48 AM
and ww says that medli is a descendant of laruto. this clearly indicates evolution. it's entirely possible one race came from another, so saying the 100% Hylian Sages of 4SA aren't connected to another group is purely speculation, and vice versa.
#6
Guest_Moonman_*
Guest_Moonman_*
-
- Guests
Posted 12 October 2004 - 03:17 PM
Also, over years and years (a really long time), all of the sages in ALttP may have gotten their sage blood from the Royal Family.
#7
Guest_BlackHawkA100_*
Guest_BlackHawkA100_*
-
- Guests
Posted 12 October 2004 - 05:09 PM
First off, Kishi, there is no way that the descendants of the sages are descended from the OoT sages, being that those races all still exist and by all appearances the seven maidens are all Hylian/Human.
Koroks Rock, the evolution in WW can only be explained by use of magic of some sort, a fish creature cannot evolve into a bird creature, not at least without keeping many traits of the original, that kind of shift takes millions of years, and the theory of evolution generally keeps species the same species, sheesh, what are the schools teaching you guys.
As for getting sages blood from the Royal Family, I have no idea what you're talking about Moonman. ALttP clearly states that they are the descendents of the seven sages who sealed Ganon. They are not Sages themselves, or else the game would have callen them the seven sages, and not the seven descendents of the Sages.
Kairu Hakubi, true, he is only rumored to be one, and while there is no evidence either way, I prefer to assume that he was in fact at one point a sage.
MikePetersSucks, my point in saying this is not to point out that there are in fact sages in a few of the games, my point is that if I'm right, in a single timeline the Imprisoning War spoken of in ALttP had to have happened sometime after WW. Also, there is not in fact any kind of proof that there are seven sages at all times in all games.
Koroks Rock, the evolution in WW can only be explained by use of magic of some sort, a fish creature cannot evolve into a bird creature, not at least without keeping many traits of the original, that kind of shift takes millions of years, and the theory of evolution generally keeps species the same species, sheesh, what are the schools teaching you guys.
As for getting sages blood from the Royal Family, I have no idea what you're talking about Moonman. ALttP clearly states that they are the descendents of the seven sages who sealed Ganon. They are not Sages themselves, or else the game would have callen them the seven sages, and not the seven descendents of the Sages.
Kairu Hakubi, true, he is only rumored to be one, and while there is no evidence either way, I prefer to assume that he was in fact at one point a sage.
MikePetersSucks, my point in saying this is not to point out that there are in fact sages in a few of the games, my point is that if I'm right, in a single timeline the Imprisoning War spoken of in ALttP had to have happened sometime after WW. Also, there is not in fact any kind of proof that there are seven sages at all times in all games.
#8
Tri-Enforcer
-
- Members
-
- 820 posts
Master
- Gender:Male
Posted 12 October 2004 - 05:37 PM
First off, Kishi, there is no way that the descendants of the sages are descended from the OoT sages, being that those races all still exist and by all appearances the seven maidens are all Hylian/Human.
As for getting sages blood from the Royal Family, I have no idea what you're talking about Moonman. ALttP clearly states that they are the descendents of the seven sages who sealed Ganon. They are not Sages themselves, or else the game would have callen them the seven sages, and not the seven descendents of the Sages.
In one paragraph u acknowledge the maidens as being descendants of the OOT sages, but in the other you say they are not. Which is it?
#9
SOAP
-
- Members
-
- 7,750 posts
So Oo Ap Puh
- Location:Savannah, GA Hell Yeah!
- Gender:Male
-
Posted 12 October 2004 - 05:42 PM
None of was directed towards me but I might as well get two cents into this debate anyways.. X3
First off, Kishi, there is no way that the descendants of the sages are descended from the OoT sages, being that those races all still exist and by all appearances the seven maidens are all Hylian/Human.
Okay, let's look at the different races of the sages of OoT:
Goron-Haven't seen any...
Kokiri-If they are, they must be hiding because I didn't see any of those either
Sheikah-Nope
Gerudo-Still no!
About the only races in OoT that still exists in LttP are the Hylians and the Zora, though the former is becoming rare and the later seems to be a branch of the species that despises all humans. My theory, the OoT sages interbredded with Hylians. They were sex freaks. What can I say?
Koroks Rock, the evolution in WW can only be explained by use of magic of some sort, a fish creature cannot evolve into a bird creature, not at least without keeping many traits of the original, that kind of shift takes millions of years, and the theory of evolution generally keeps species the same species, sheesh, what are the schools teaching you guys.
Hyrule is a fantasy world. The rules of biology apparently don't apply since we have Medli, a Rito, who is decended from Laruto, who is a Zora. That's crossbreeding between two totally different species! The mechanics on how such an anomoly could occur are simply mind boggling! That's like trying to picture a bird and a fish trying to do the damn thing!
As for getting sages blood from the Royal Family, I have no idea what you're talking about Moonman. ALttP clearly states that they are the descendents of the seven sages who sealed Ganon. They are not Sages themselves, or else the game would have callen them the seven sages, and not the seven descendents of the Sages.
Well it seems in ALttP, the only TRUE Hylians are in the Royal Family with everyone else being some sort of hybrid of some sort (Gerudo and Hylian?). So thus the Sage decendants must have some royal blood in them as well. Not a conclusion I'd draw myself personally but easy to imagine.
MikePetersSucks, my point in saying this is not to point out that there are in fact sages in a few of the games, my point is that if I'm right, in a single timeline the Imprisoning War spoken of in ALttP had to have happened sometime after WW. Also, there is not in fact any kind of proof that there are seven sages at all times in all games.
"Oh the Imprison War happened in the alternate future!" "Oh it happened after TWW!" "Oh it happened in my backyard last tuesday!" What ever happened to believing OoT was THE Imprisoning War? Sure there were some inconsistencies but dammit it was the closest thing we had to ever witnessing it! XP
First off, Kishi, there is no way that the descendants of the sages are descended from the OoT sages, being that those races all still exist and by all appearances the seven maidens are all Hylian/Human.
Okay, let's look at the different races of the sages of OoT:
Goron-Haven't seen any...
Kokiri-If they are, they must be hiding because I didn't see any of those either
Sheikah-Nope
Gerudo-Still no!
About the only races in OoT that still exists in LttP are the Hylians and the Zora, though the former is becoming rare and the later seems to be a branch of the species that despises all humans. My theory, the OoT sages interbredded with Hylians. They were sex freaks. What can I say?
Koroks Rock, the evolution in WW can only be explained by use of magic of some sort, a fish creature cannot evolve into a bird creature, not at least without keeping many traits of the original, that kind of shift takes millions of years, and the theory of evolution generally keeps species the same species, sheesh, what are the schools teaching you guys.
Hyrule is a fantasy world. The rules of biology apparently don't apply since we have Medli, a Rito, who is decended from Laruto, who is a Zora. That's crossbreeding between two totally different species! The mechanics on how such an anomoly could occur are simply mind boggling! That's like trying to picture a bird and a fish trying to do the damn thing!
As for getting sages blood from the Royal Family, I have no idea what you're talking about Moonman. ALttP clearly states that they are the descendents of the seven sages who sealed Ganon. They are not Sages themselves, or else the game would have callen them the seven sages, and not the seven descendents of the Sages.
Well it seems in ALttP, the only TRUE Hylians are in the Royal Family with everyone else being some sort of hybrid of some sort (Gerudo and Hylian?). So thus the Sage decendants must have some royal blood in them as well. Not a conclusion I'd draw myself personally but easy to imagine.
MikePetersSucks, my point in saying this is not to point out that there are in fact sages in a few of the games, my point is that if I'm right, in a single timeline the Imprisoning War spoken of in ALttP had to have happened sometime after WW. Also, there is not in fact any kind of proof that there are seven sages at all times in all games.
"Oh the Imprison War happened in the alternate future!" "Oh it happened after TWW!" "Oh it happened in my backyard last tuesday!" What ever happened to believing OoT was THE Imprisoning War? Sure there were some inconsistencies but dammit it was the closest thing we had to ever witnessing it! XP
#10
Guest_BlackHawkA100_*
Guest_BlackHawkA100_*
-
- Guests
Posted 12 October 2004 - 05:45 PM
I did not say they were descended from the OoT sages, simply that they were descended from the seven sages who sealed Ganon in the Imprisoning War. Those sages are not necisarilly those from OoT. True, those sages did seal Ganon, but I'm assuming that they are not the only sages to ever seal Ganon. Also, going by the story of ALttP it's likely that OoT was not the IW spoken of.
#11
Guest_Moonman_*
Guest_Moonman_*
-
- Guests
Posted 12 October 2004 - 06:01 PM
So basically this all arises from the fact that you're not satisfied with equating OoT to the Imprisoning War. I can understand that. It takes a certain interpretation of the Imprisoning War story to attach it to OoT. My question, then, is this: How do you think Sages come to be? Do you think it is a function of a bloodline, a 'they will appear in a time of need' sort of thing, or what?
#12
Tri-Enforcer
-
- Members
-
- 820 posts
Master
- Gender:Male
Posted 12 October 2004 - 06:12 PM
I did not say they were descended from the OoT sages, simply that they were descended from the seven sages who sealed Ganon in the Imprisoning War. Those sages are not necisarilly those from OoT. True, those sages did seal Ganon, but I'm assuming that they are not the only sages to ever seal Ganon.
Just seeing where ya coming from..had me confused...but I see what you're saying.
"Oh the Imprison War happened in the alternate future!" "Oh it happened after TWW!" "Oh it happened in my backyard last tuesday!" What ever happened to believing OoT was THE Imprisoning War? Sure there were some inconsistencies but dammit it was the closest thing we had to ever witnessing it!
If that's the closest we get to seeing it, then it belongs in that "alternate future"--cuz the people of Hyrule that Link returns too won't ever get to see it--but somehow it's still suppose to become legend?
"It's a nice quite day, Link goes around telling everyone of his feats in the future and how he saved everyone-- The people look at him strangely --What did you save us from...? We didn't know about it...we didn't see it---but we believe you--hey everyone lets make his story into legend and it shall go down in history, about the boy who claim he rescued us from something we didn't know about...I feel all warm and tingly"
If that ain't BS I don't know what is....
#13
Guest_chronicle_*
Guest_chronicle_*
-
- Guests
Posted 12 October 2004 - 07:54 PM
I could find a picture of actual BS on Google Image search, if you want...
#14
Guest_BlackHawkA100_*
Guest_BlackHawkA100_*
-
- Guests
Posted 13 October 2004 - 12:20 PM
So basically this all arises from the fact that you're not satisfied with equating OoT to the Imprisoning War. I can understand that. It takes a certain interpretation of the Imprisoning War story to attach it to OoT. My question, then, is this: How do you think Sages come to be? Do you think it is a function of a bloodline, a 'they will appear in a time of need' sort of thing, or what?
Well, not exactly, but that's a part of it, at one point it made perfect sense to me that the Imprisoning War was OoT, but then I started thinking too much.
As far as sages, we only know of a few sets, whether or not there ever were or ever will be any more than those nobody can say but the creators, and even then that's never 100% accurate. Each time a group of sages has been formed it has been by fate, the first group we see assembled is the group in OoT, their respective leadership positions in their tribes and seeming latent magical powers in conjunction with the threat of Ganon make them the seven sages, with their power they seal Ganon.
Another set is the two sages in WW, but they aren't particularly important in my argument, since they appear only in that game and are never spoken of again. Their only importance is that in a single timeline there is a break between two separate sets of seven sages, each of which sealed Ganon. (a theory which doesn't hold up well, which is one among a few reasons I prefer a multiple timeline theory).
The other set, assuming that they aren't the same as OoT, (which I'm doing) seals Ganon once more in the Imprisoning War, their descendents are later captured by Aghanim and used to weaken the seal to the Dark World. I can't find any information to say exactly how these sages (Wise Men in the ALttP instruction manual, I don't know if it's changed in the SP version) were formed, but since they were sent by the king I would assume they were an already established organization, most likely religious in nature and perhaps based upon the legends of the original seven sages. As for there not being any sages during the time of ALttP, I can't explain that, if it was a tradition as I have said above, there would be no reason for the sages not to continue on. There are a lot of holes in this theory, hopefully I'll be able to fill them soon but until that time let that suffice for my beliefs.
#15
Guest_Moonman_*
Guest_Moonman_*
-
- Guests
Posted 14 October 2004 - 01:59 AM
Well, maybe I can help you along. In the SP version of ALttP, the Seven Wise Men are indeed called Sages. As for the absence of sages in ALttP, I'm not sure that's entirely true. Their not really called sages, but I think the Maidens are pretty close. It is their power, after all, that lets you into Ganon's tower, and they are the descendants of the Sages...
...so they're kinda like sages...
Also, remember that Fado and Laruto said that the next sage is in their lineage. Of course, from your 'derived through fate' theory, that could only mean that that limitation applies to just that set of sages.
Now, whether or not people believe in that story depends on a few factors. One is when exactly Zelda sent Link back in time to. According to the Multiple Timeline theory, it's after Ganon has already chased Zelda out of the Castle, and entered the Sacred Realm. Therefore, they do indeed know what threat existed, and might accept the story by the boy.
Alternatively, if they didn't believe the boy's story, the story may still have been heard by enough people to become folklore. Hyrulians could tell and retell it to their children as a bedtime story, or a bard of sorts could have heard it and spread it around...basically, it could have become a legend the same way stories became legend in real life.
...so they're kinda like sages...
Also, remember that Fado and Laruto said that the next sage is in their lineage. Of course, from your 'derived through fate' theory, that could only mean that that limitation applies to just that set of sages.
"It's a nice quite day, Link goes around telling everyone of his feats in the future and how he saved everyone-- The people look at him strangely --What did you save us from...? We didn't know about it...we didn't see it---but we believe you--hey everyone lets make his story into legend and it shall go down in history, about the boy who claim he rescued us from something we didn't know about...I feel all warm and tingly"
Now, whether or not people believe in that story depends on a few factors. One is when exactly Zelda sent Link back in time to. According to the Multiple Timeline theory, it's after Ganon has already chased Zelda out of the Castle, and entered the Sacred Realm. Therefore, they do indeed know what threat existed, and might accept the story by the boy.
Alternatively, if they didn't believe the boy's story, the story may still have been heard by enough people to become folklore. Hyrulians could tell and retell it to their children as a bedtime story, or a bard of sorts could have heard it and spread it around...basically, it could have become a legend the same way stories became legend in real life.
#16
Guest_chronicle_*
Guest_chronicle_*
-
- Guests
Posted 14 October 2004 - 06:26 AM
I heard a stroy about a wmona who killed herself while she was in a matteress, so that when her cheating husband and his girlfriend came home and messed around, they felt the lumpiness through the bed, and then they found her body!
Talk about a damper.
oh, and BTW, Who EVER said there had to be seven sages in a set? If there were, wouldn't you have to awaken seven sages in the WW?
Talk about a damper.
oh, and BTW, Who EVER said there had to be seven sages in a set? If there were, wouldn't you have to awaken seven sages in the WW?
#17
Koroks Rock
-
- ZL Staff
-
- 943 posts
Verum per Fingo
- Location:World of fiction
Posted 14 October 2004 - 07:00 AM
are we ever going to bring the seven maidens from 4SA into this? they could further the descendant question a good bit...
#18
Tri-Enforcer
-
- Members
-
- 820 posts
Master
- Gender:Male
Posted 14 October 2004 - 02:26 PM
Now, whether or not people believe in that story depends on a few factors. One is when exactly Zelda sent Link back in time to. According to the Multiple Timeline theory, it's after Ganon has already chased Zelda out of the Castle, and entered the Sacred Realm. Therefore, they do indeed know what threat existed, and might accept the story by the boy.
Alternatively, if they didn't believe the boy's story, the story may still have been heard by enough people to become folklore. Hyrulians could tell and retell it to their children as a bedtime story, or a bard of sorts could have heard it and spread it around...basically, it could have become a legend the same way stories became legend in real life.
Yeah, but in terms of a single time line, people make it seem as if the IW didn't happen when Link went back into the past, and the story that Link told everyone is what goes down in legend as opposed to the people of ancient Hyrule actually experiencing it first hand. That story goes down in legend, but events like Ganon returning, the flood, the land reconnecting, a new kingdom being established, are over looked in LTTP backstory. You'd think the latter parts of there history would be more remembered as opposed to an event that the ancient Hyruleans didn't even experience.
#19
SOAP
-
- Members
-
- 7,750 posts
So Oo Ap Puh
- Location:Savannah, GA Hell Yeah!
- Gender:Male
-
Posted 14 October 2004 - 02:51 PM
^ That's why I go by the Time Loop Theory. That way, as Single Timeliner I can have my cake and eat it too. :3 Embrace the Loop y'all!
#20
Guest_BlackHawkA100_*
Guest_BlackHawkA100_*
-
- Guests
Posted 14 October 2004 - 02:56 PM
I agree with Tri-Enforcer on that point.
As for the six Maidens in 4SA (+Zelda=7) this one I'm almost positive of, it never says that they're sages, they're shrine maidens, which may or may not equate to the same thing. But if the descendents in ALttP are descended from the maidens then 4SA would have to be either directly before or after ALttP, making 4SA the Imprisoning War itself (highly unlikely) if it came before, and just a converting of the descendents into shrine maidens if it came afterwards. Either way it doesn't really clear much up.
In ALttP is it the power of the seven descendents or is it their simple presence? It's possible that through their bloodlines they hold locked power, power which was unlocked at the time of peril, actually, I guess that means that at that point they become the new set of seven sages. That still doesn't explain why there wouldn't be any in the first place though.
As for the six Maidens in 4SA (+Zelda=7) this one I'm almost positive of, it never says that they're sages, they're shrine maidens, which may or may not equate to the same thing. But if the descendents in ALttP are descended from the maidens then 4SA would have to be either directly before or after ALttP, making 4SA the Imprisoning War itself (highly unlikely) if it came before, and just a converting of the descendents into shrine maidens if it came afterwards. Either way it doesn't really clear much up.
In ALttP is it the power of the seven descendents or is it their simple presence? It's possible that through their bloodlines they hold locked power, power which was unlocked at the time of peril, actually, I guess that means that at that point they become the new set of seven sages. That still doesn't explain why there wouldn't be any in the first place though.
#21
Guest_Moonman_*
Guest_Moonman_*
-
- Guests
Posted 14 October 2004 - 05:43 PM
In regards to Tri-Enforcer, Mario Jr. has the right idea. The whole time loop thing makes great sense. However, it still doesn't account for the whole great flood thing. Which is one reason why I prefer the parallel timeline theory: everything fits with fewer discrepancies.
Well, by your own theory, Sages only appear when fate deems it necessary. So, between the IW and ALttP, there apparently was no need for sages.
No one, really, but all but one set of Sages has seven of them. So it seems Seven would be the standard number. After all, seven is a much more 'mystical' number than two...oh, and BTW, Who EVER said there had to be seven sages in a set? If there were, wouldn't you have to awaken seven sages in the WW?
In ALttP is it the power of the seven descendents or is it their simple presence? It's possible that through their bloodlines they hold locked power, power which was unlocked at the time of peril, actually, I guess that means that at that point they become the new set of seven sages. That still doesn't explain why there wouldn't be any in the first place though.
Well, by your own theory, Sages only appear when fate deems it necessary. So, between the IW and ALttP, there apparently was no need for sages.
#22
Guest_Spikey_*
Guest_Spikey_*
-
- Guests
Posted 14 October 2004 - 05:49 PM
Well, by your own theory, Sages only appear when fate deems it necessary. So, between the IW and ALttP, there apparently was no need for sages.
Maybe sages have more purposes than what they were set out to do at the time of the games anyway.
#23
Guest_Moonman_*
Guest_Moonman_*
-
- Guests
Posted 14 October 2004 - 05:58 PM
Maybe sages have more purposes than what they were set out to do at the time of the games anyway.
It's possible, except that that wouldn't explain why there aren't true Sages in ALttP.
#24
Tri-Enforcer
-
- Members
-
- 820 posts
Master
- Gender:Male
Posted 14 October 2004 - 06:08 PM
In regards to Tri-Enforcer, Mario Jr. has the right idea. The whole time loop thing makes great sense. However, it still doesn't account for the whole great flood thing. Which is one reason why I prefer the parallel timeline theory: everything fits with fewer discrepancies.
Whether it's a single timeline or a split timeline...I just would totally disregard the loop theory...it's ridiculous and defeats the purpose of Link returning to the past. I know that was harsh...but I just felt the need to say so. Bring it, if you want!
Moonman, we seem to have two different interpretations about the whole multi-split-parallel whatever you wanna call it theory. In your version (not that we orginated the multi-idea), Link goes back to the past while Ganon is still in the Sacred Realm and is trapped there. That line goes on, and so does the line that Link left behind.
Here's where we differ, I believe Link returns to his "original" time as Zelda said he would...Ganon is still around and a threat, but there's not much he can do without the Triforce, so his plans are thwarted for the time being...Link does no Time traveling whats so ever, cuz time traveling in the 1st place was a mistake--Zelda even said that and she felt guilty about Link losing his childhood, especially since it's Link's destiny to defeat Ganon with or without time travel. Basically---LINK HAS TO FULFILL HIS DESTINY THE OLD FASHION WAY AND WITH NO TIME TRAVELLING. Thus the IW happens a different way--the way that fits the LTTP backstory. As for the other timeline link left behind...that one continues on setting up the stage for TWW.
#25
SOAP
-
- Members
-
- 7,750 posts
So Oo Ap Puh
- Location:Savannah, GA Hell Yeah!
- Gender:Male
-
Posted 14 October 2004 - 06:20 PM
Why would the Time Loop need to account for the Great Flood. All the loop really concerns is the events of OoT and MM. It's just a theory to explain how the IW and Link's departure to Termina could have occured within the same timeline. Nothing more. And that's enough for me. If you want to explain things in other games beyond those two games then you add another theory ontop of that. Also, I find the Loop theory actually explains all the MM references and how the ToC exists in that time period when Link took it with him to the past (and to the other timeline if you went with the Split Timeline Theory). Like I said, I'm having my cake and eating it too. ^__^
#26
Guest_chronicle_*
Guest_chronicle_*
-
- Guests
Posted 14 October 2004 - 06:56 PM
The boat having less density than water is what floats mine.
Tri enforcer, Your theory makes much sense, but I don't understand what you are saying... are you for a Single Timeline, or A Split Timeline?
Tri enforcer, Your theory makes much sense, but I don't understand what you are saying... are you for a Single Timeline, or A Split Timeline?
#27
SOAP
-
- Members
-
- 7,750 posts
So Oo Ap Puh
- Location:Savannah, GA Hell Yeah!
- Gender:Male
-
Posted 14 October 2004 - 11:54 PM
If a time Loop defeats the purpose of Link being sent back to his childhood then how is having the IW taking place in the new timeline any different. Everything still happens all over again, only without time travel. In fact, why should the IW have to do with anything with OoT or any of it's characters if it OoT is not indeed the IW? The IW could just as easily take place an whole different era. In fact both the IW and LttP could take place centuries before OoT with a whole different Ganondorf. Hell, FSA proves that Ganon can be reborn so the Ganondorf we see in OoT could just be another reincarnation of the Ganon of LttP. If OoT is not the true IW, then why have it first at all?
Let's face it. OoT=IW was the only thing that really tied OoT to LttP.
Edit: Sorry Chronicle. Didn't realie you were responding to my oiginal post. XP
Let's face it. OoT=IW was the only thing that really tied OoT to LttP.
Edit: Sorry Chronicle. Didn't realie you were responding to my oiginal post. XP
#28
Tri-Enforcer
-
- Members
-
- 820 posts
Master
- Gender:Male
Posted 15 October 2004 - 10:07 AM
The boat having less density than water is what floats mine.
Tri enforcer, Your theory makes much sense, but I don't understand what you are saying... are you for a Single Timeline, or A Split Timeline?
I was giving my split theory, Chronicle; when Link returns to his original time line, that obviously continues on in a different way. The alternate future that Link left behind also continues on. The IW war happens on both timelines only in different ways. When Link returns to his time the IW will eventually happen, but it will fit the LTTP backstory. The future link left behind was the IW that we all played in and what the TWW backstory is referring to.
(Mario Party)
If a time Loop defeats the purpose of Link being sent back to his childhood then how is having the IW taking place in the new timeline any different. Everything still happens all over again, only without time travel.
That's because the timeline link returned is what would've happened if Link never slept for 7yrs--that is what was supposed to have happened!! The alternate future Link left behind--was not supposed to have happened--it was a "mistake"! Zelda said it herself. She didn't realize, until the end, that Link was destined to defeat Ganon no matter what--she wasn't supposed to have sent Link on a journey through time and losing his childhood. That's the purpose of Link going back and having to participate in the IW once more--only this time without timetravel--and thus eliminating any use of a loop. This time around....when he defeats Ganon--since he won't time travel and didn't lose his childhood--there would be no need to send him back once more--and so so I'll say this again--and thus eliminating any use of a loop.
With my theory, not only are you having your cake and eating it too--you're also having ice cream with it!
#29
Guest_Moonman_*
Guest_Moonman_*
-
- Guests
Posted 15 October 2004 - 05:20 PM
That makes good sense, I suppose, except for one part: "LINK HAS TO FULFILL HIS DESTINY THE OLD FASHION WAY AND WITH NO TIME TRAVELLING." I think by time travelling, Link has already fulfilled his destiny of defeating Ganon. Who's to say destiny is the same within both timelines after such a serious alteration? Hence, our hero is not mentioned in the IW story. Basically, I think if he had played a part in defeating Ganondorf in the child timeline he would have been mentioned.Here's where we differ, I believe Link returns to his "original" time as Zelda said he would...Ganon is still around and a threat, but there's not much he can do without the Triforce, so his plans are thwarted for the time being...Link does no Time traveling whats so ever, cuz time traveling in the 1st place was a mistake--Zelda even said that and she felt guilty about Link losing his childhood, especially since it's Link's destiny to defeat Ganon with or without time travel. Basically---LINK HAS TO FULFILL HIS DESTINY THE OLD FASHION WAY AND WITH NO TIME TRAVELLING. Thus the IW happens a different way--the way that fits the LTTP backstory. As for the other timeline link left behind...that one continues on setting up the stage for TWW.
Why would the Time Loop need to account for the Great Flood. All the loop really concerns is the events of OoT and MM.
It doesn't have to account for the Great Flood, but if you put ALttP after OoT, and claim that OoT=IW, then you also have to have a good explanation for why nobody ever mentions a great flood in ALttP. You'd think that, being the more recent and even more fantastic story, would be prevalent in ALttP's world.
Also, the time loop theory doesn't defeat the purpose of sending Link back to his childhood. The thing MM tells us is that Link never really regained anything but physical youth. He seems just as mature as adult Link in OoT, and he leaves on a quest to find Navi, which is something that never would have happened if he truly regained his childhood. So, while Zelda gives him some of his time back, she doesn't truly make him a kid again in anything more than looks.
#30
SOAP
-
- Members
-
- 7,750 posts
So Oo Ap Puh
- Location:Savannah, GA Hell Yeah!
- Gender:Male
-
Posted 15 October 2004 - 07:23 PM
Yeah Tri. OoT isn't a mistake. Link defeated Ganon and saved a whole bunch of people. How is that a mistake? Yeah, sure he had to give up seven years of his life, but don't you think that the results were well worth it? The only reason Link was sent back to his own time was that he and Zelda both knew he didn't "belong" in that time. And sure, she may have been a bit sympathetic for Link's lost childhood. But that doesn't mean everything they did was a mistake.
Well it doesn't matter. I no longer see a need for the IW to be associated with OoT... at all.
It doesn't have to account for the Great Flood, but if you put ALttP after OoT, and claim that OoT=IW, then you also have to have a good explanation for why nobody ever mentions a great flood in ALttP. You'd think that, being the more recent and even more fantastic story, would be prevalent in ALttP's world.
Well it doesn't matter. I no longer see a need for the IW to be associated with OoT... at all.
