320 replies to this topic

[Vertiboy]

Hero of Legend said

Or they just didn't know he entered the SR and got the Triforce, and superstitiously blame this ?unexplainable? event on the gods. Simple, I know.

What changed in the child timeline if Link arrived after the Triforce was split, then? Ganondorf would still have the Triforce of Power, and he would still use it to rule Hyrule. The only difference I can think of is that Link would be present in the timeline. Still, he would need the Master Sword to defeat Ganondorf. If he drew it, the events of the adult timeline would repeat in the child timeline.

Also, that doesn't account for why Zelda is in Hyrule Castle. She and Impa rode away after Ganondorf attacked it.

Why would the Sages say that Ganondorf was arrested for invading Hyrule and trying to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm? He wanted the Triforce. He got it. Why would he want the SR? It is a useless realm if the Triforce is not there. He had already corrupted it with his presence anyway. In a way, he already had established dominion over the SR.

It would take the addition of too much unsupported fan fiction to explain why the events of the adult timeline wouldn't happen again in the child timeline if Link arrives after the Triforce had already been split. However, OoT, TP, and Aonuma's quote all work together to perfectly fill in the gaps between OoT's ending and TP. Link arrives before his adventure begins, he tells Zelda about Ganondorf's threat, they decide to leave him alone, Ganondorf attacks Hyrule years later, and he is arrested and sentenced to execution.

Yes, it is possible for Link to arrive after the Triforce is split, but it takes unnecessary fan fiction to make it work. Arriving before the Triforce splits requires no fan fiction because OoT, TP, and Aonuma's quote fill in all of the gaps perfectly. Why choose the explaination where you must fill in the gaps on your own when there is an explaination that fills in the gaps on its own.

[FDL]

Vertiboy, on Apr 29 2007, 09:00 PM, said:

What changed in the child timeline if Link arrived after the Triforce was split, then? Ganondorf would still have the Triforce of Power, and he would still use it to rule Hyrule. The only difference I can think of is that Link would be present in the timeline. Still, he would need the Master Sword to defeat Ganondorf. If he drew it, the events of the adult timeline would repeat in the child timeline.

In OoT you don't need the MS to defeat Ganondorf, only GANON. Compare the end of OoT with that scene in TP. It's very similar.

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Why would the Sages say that Ganondorf was arrested for invading Hyrule and trying to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm? He wanted the Triforce. He got it. Why would he want the SR? It is a useless realm if the Triforce is not there. He had already corrupted it with his presence anyway. In a way, he already had established dominion over the SR.

They never said he was arrested before he got the Triforce.

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It would take the addition of too much unsupported fan fiction to explain why the events of the adult timeline wouldn't happen again in the child timeline if Link arrives after the Triforce had already been split. However, OoT, TP, and Aonuma's quote all work together to perfectly fill in the gaps between OoT's ending and TP. Link arrives before his adventure begins, he tells Zelda about Ganondorf's threat, they decide to leave him alone, Ganondorf attacks Hyrule years later, and he is arrested and sentenced to execution.

Yes, it is possible for Link to arrive after the Triforce is split, but it takes unnecessary fan fiction to make it work. Arriving before the Triforce splits requires no fan fiction because OoT, TP, and Aonuma's quote fill in all of the gaps perfectly. Why choose the explaination where you must fill in the gaps on your own when there is an explaination that fills in the gaps on its own.

Along with what I've already mentioned, you have to explain why Link is known as a hero if he did nothing. I'd get more into this but I'm not in the mood. Hopefully, HoL or somebody is.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 29 April 2007 - 08:07 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

Arturo, on Apr 29 2007, 09:58 PM, said:

No, he says that that conversation was what made the events go differently in the other timeline.

Ah, that's what I meant, "differentiated" not "separated", my mistake.

[The Missing Link]

LionHarted, on Apr 29 2007, 11:57 AM, said:

Zelda's physical location is unknown after her initial escape from the castle.

What is known is that she's not at the castle, and as proof, go back to the castle at any point proceeding that scene and you won't find her. Ockham's Razor then says that she never was there after that point. End of proof.

LionHarted, on Apr 29 2007, 11:57 AM, said:

We know that ending time travel somehow caused a split, so it obviously cannot function under the predestination formula we see throughout the rest of the game.

I covered this a good ten times over. I'm not going to repeat myself. There need be no round two. Especially with you.

[Vertiboy]

FDL said

In OoT you don't need the MS to defeat Ganondorf, only GANON. Compare the end of OoT with that scene in TP. It's very similar.

If Link were about to defeat Ganondorf, wouldn't he turn into Ganon to trumph Link's abilities? Again, you are making your point more and more moot because you are proving that it needs more and more fan fiction to work.

Here's the FF we have so far:
Link arrives after the Triforce split. Zelda comes back to Hyrule Castle, even though it was attacked, and will be attacked again by Ganondorf. Link tells Zelda about his adventure as an adult. Ganondorf comes to attack Hyrule Castle, but Link is there with the Triforce of Courage. Link defeats Ganondorf, and he is arrested. Well, that sound perfectly supported.

Or:

Link arrives before his adventure began (implied by Aonuma quote because of the other information in it). He talks to Zelda about Ganondorf, they decide to leave him alone, and their relationship with him takes a new direction (Aonuma quote). Years later (Aonuma quote), Ganondorf attacks Hyrule in order to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm (Twilight Princess). Ganondorf is arrested and sentenced to execution (Twilight Princess). I gave citations and all, and only one of those facts are implied.

Seriously, the elaborate fan fiction is unnecessary and not helping your side of the debate at all.

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They never said he was arrested before he got the Triforce.

They did say that he invaded Hyrule in order to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm. Why would he want to establish dominion over a useless realm if he already knew that he had the ToP? You can't explain that without making up some fan fiction explaination, which, again, helps me to prove my point further.

Here is more of what we have:

Link arrives after the Triforce split. Zelda comes back to Hyrule Castle, even though it was attacked, and will be attacked again by Ganondorf. Link tells Zelda about his adventure as an adult. Ganondorf comes to attack Hyrule Castle and even though he has the Triforce of Power, he wants to rule the Sacred Realm for some weird, unknown reason. Link is there with the Triforce of Courage. Link defeats Ganondorf, and he is arrested. Well, that sound perfectly supported.

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Along with what I've already mentioned, you have to explain why Link is known as a hero if he did nothing. I'd get more into this but I'm not in the mood. Hopefully, HoL or somebody is.

MM's prologue says that he is. It doesn't matter if he does anything or not. If you want to get technical, though, he is a hero because he told Zelda that Ganondorf is a threat. You are automatically assuming that a hero is someone who physically fights some kind of evil. That is not true. Link warning Zelda about Ganondorf's potential threat makes him a hero. If Link told Zelda about his adventure in the adult timeline, then that story could also be passed down through the Hylian Royal Family. That doesn't necessarily have to be the case, though, because simply telling Zelda about Ganondorf could qualify Link to be a hero.

Link did something in the child timeline. You just conveniently failed to remember that.

Edited by Vertiboy, 29 April 2007 - 10:02 PM.

[LionHarted]

Fierce Deity Link, on Apr 29 2007, 08:07 PM, said:

In OoT you don't need the MS to defeat Ganondorf, only GANON. Compare the end of OoT with that scene in TP. It's very similar.

Have fun beating Dark Lord Ganondorf without the Master Sword.

[Vertiboy]

FDL said

No, he doesn't. You interpreted it as such. That doesn't mean that's what he was saying.

In my post before this one, I proved that with all of the information given in OoT, TP, and Aonuma's quote that Link arrives before he met Zelda. If you debate that, you are immune to fact.

Just in case you also conveniently missed that, too, here it is again. I cited where I got the facts from in the paragraph.

Vertiboy said

He [Link] talks to Zelda about Ganondorf, they decide to leave him alone, and their relationship with him takes a new direction (Aonuma quote). Years later (Aonuma quote), Ganondorf attacks Hyrule in order to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm (Twilight Princess). Ganondorf is arrested and sentenced to execution (Twilight Princess). I gave citations and all, and only one of those facts are implied.

TP itself implies that Link arrived after the Triforce split. It says that he was caught invading Hyrule in order to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm. If he already had the Triforce of Power, then what good would trying to rule the SR do? Honestly, I would like to see what excuse you whip out for this one. What canon reason would Ganondorf want to rule the SR, if there is no longer a Triforce in there?

The only reason I can think of would be that Link arrived before the Triforce split, and Ganondorf was not aware that he possessed the ToP.

Edited by Vertiboy, 30 April 2007 - 11:55 AM.

[LionHarted]

Vertiboy, on Apr 30 2007, 11:50 AM, said:

I proved that with all of the information given in OoT, TP, and Aonuma's quote that Link arrives before he met Zelda.

No, you didn't.

Link arrives, and sometime later, Ganondorf touches the Triforce, which of course splits (OoT endng, ToC mark). Zelda comes back to Hyrule Castle, since Ganondorf has entered the Sacred Realm and seemingly disappeared from Hyrule. Link talks to Zelda about Ganondorf, they decide to leave him alone, and their relationship with him takes a new direction (Aonuma quote). Ganondorf attacks Hyrule in order to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm (Twilight Princess). Ganondorf is arrested and sentenced to execution (Twilight Princess).

Or:

Link arrives before his adventure began. He talks to Zelda about Ganondorf, they decide to leave him alone, and their relationship with him takes a new direction (Aonuma quote). Ganondorf attacks Hyrule in order to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm (Twilight Princess). Ganondorf is arrested and sentenced to execution (Twilight Princess). Link gets the Triforce mark inexplicably in the ending scene, Ganondorf gets the Triforce inexplicably in the execution, and Zelda has her piece just as inexplicably.

More accurate reflection of both sides. Removed your interpretations of what Aonuma and TP "imply".

Edited by LionHarted, 30 April 2007 - 12:01 PM.

[Vertiboy]

LionHarted, on Apr 30 2007, 11:53 AM, said:

No, you didn't.

Okay, so I quoted myself when I clearly proved it, but whatever...just see what you want to see.

He [Link] talks to Zelda about Ganondorf, they decide to leave him alone, and their relationship with him takes a new direction (Aonuma quote). Years later (Aonuma quote), Ganondorf attacks Hyrule in order to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm (Twilight Princess). Ganondorf is arrested and sentenced to execution (Twilight Princess). I gave citations and all, and only one of those facts are implied.

With all of that information, you can deduct roughly when Link arrived. Some people just don't have the capacity (not necessarily you) to put it all together because it is too complex for them.

Next time you disagree, like you don't think that I have disproved someone, give a response that isn't equivelent to just nuh-uh !!!!! I thought that we were above this, people. It is nice to give someone a reason for disagreeing with them in a debate if you wish to be taken seriously.

Edited by Vertiboy, 30 April 2007 - 12:01 PM.

[Showsni]

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What is known is that she's not at the castle, and as proof, go back to the castle at any point proceeding that scene and you won't find her. Ockham's Razor then says that she never was there after that point. End of proof.

Because you can't actually get in. She might be there, for all you know.

If you walk anywhere in Hyrule, you can't find her. But one place you can't get to is inside Hyrule Castle - gasp!

Unless you do the fun seam walking trick, and then discover that the whole castle is a giant swimming pool.

[FDL]

Vertiboy, on Apr 29 2007, 10:52 PM, said:

If Link were about to defeat Ganondorf, wouldn't he turn into Ganon to trumph Link's abilities? Again, you are making your point more and more moot because you are proving that it needs more and more fan fiction to work.

No, because he can't control the power of the gods after he's had it for seven and thus definetly wouldn't have control over it right after he got it. Plus, you're putting words in my mouth as well as inferring what I meant. You seem to have a habit of that. I never said how he was captured, but I said he was.

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Here's the FF we have so far:
Link arrives after the Triforce split. Zelda comes back to Hyrule Castle, even though it was attacked, and will be attacked again by Ganondorf. Link tells Zelda about his adventure as an adult. Ganondorf comes to attack Hyrule Castle, but Link is there with the Triforce of Courage. Link defeats Ganondorf, and he is arrested. Well, that sound perfectly supported.

Or:

Link arrives before his adventure began (implied by Aonuma quote because of the other information in it). He talks to Zelda about Ganondorf, they decide to leave him alone, and their relationship with him takes a new direction (Aonuma quote). Years later (Aonuma quote), Ganondorf attacks Hyrule in order to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm (Twilight Princess). Ganondorf is arrested and sentenced to execution (Twilight Princess). I gave citations and all, and only one of those facts are implied.

Seriously, the elaborate fan fiction is unnecessary and not helping your side of the debate at all.

And your idiotic inferences aren't helping yours at all. I never said any of what you have said, I've simply said that nothing has actually proven what you say has been proven.

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They did say that he invaded Hyrule in order to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm. Why would he want to establish dominion over a useless realm if he already knew that he had the ToP? You can't explain that without making up some fan fiction explaination, which, again, helps me to prove my point further.

No, because it doesn't say what you believe it said. It says that he led a band of thieves to get into the Sacred Realm. Then it says he was eventually captured. Though you inferred that it said he was captured in the midst of it, that was never actually said one way or the other. If we go by OoT then the fact that he was captured because of his "fury and might" would imply that he already had the Triforce because prior to that he didn't show his might and instead was sneaky. But that doesn't really matter.

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Here is more of what we have:

Link arrives after the Triforce split. Zelda comes back to Hyrule Castle, even though it was attacked, and will be attacked again by Ganondorf. Link tells Zelda about his adventure as an adult. Ganondorf comes to attack Hyrule Castle and even though he has the Triforce of Power, he wants to rule the Sacred Realm for some weird, unknown reason. Link is there with the Triforce of Courage. Link defeats Ganondorf, and he is arrested. Well, that sound perfectly supported.

Nice way of putting words in my mouth, you fool. You are once again inferring what I believe. Plus, your little interpretations have such an extreme bias it's sickening. If you want to debate, do it fairly.

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MM's prologue says that he is. It doesn't matter if he does anything or not. If you want to get technical, though, he is a hero because he told Zelda that Ganondorf is a threat. You are automatically assuming that a hero is someone who physically fights some kind of evil. That is not true. Link warning Zelda about Ganondorf's potential threat makes him a hero. If Link told Zelda about his adventure in the adult timeline, then that story could also be passed down through the Hylian Royal Family. That doesn't necessarily have to be the case, though, because simply telling Zelda about Ganondorf could qualify Link to be a hero.

You forget that Zelda's father didn't even believe her when she said Ganondorf was evil. He's not going to believe some random kid, and thus history would end up the same way anyhow. Plus, if you by the way the games talk about said hero then you'd know it doesn't talk about it in the way you do.

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Link did something in the child timeline. You just conveniently failed to remember that.

Sorta the way you fail in your attempts at "proving" things?

LionHarted, on Apr 29 2007, 10:57 PM, said:

Have fun beating Dark Lord Ganondorf without the Master Sword.

Considering the first time I beat him it was with the Biggoron's Sword, I did. Plus, I have a bunch of options with the Megaton Hammer and bottles.

Vertiboy, on Apr 30 2007, 12:50 PM, said:

In my post before this one, I proved that with all of the information given in OoT, TP, and Aonuma's quote that Link arrives before he met Zelda. If you debate that, you are immune to fact.

No, you didn't prove anything, you inferred a hell of [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. Which is different.

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TP itself implies that Link arrived after the Triforce split. It says that he was caught invading Hyrule in order to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm. If he already had the Triforce of Power, then what good would trying to rule the SR do? Honestly, I would like to see what excuse you whip out for this one. What canon reason would Ganondorf want to rule the SR, if there is no longer a Triforce in there?

See above. It never says he was caught in the middle of it, just that he had led a band of thieves to do so and was captured at some point.

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The only reason I can think of would be that Link arrived before the Triforce split, and Ganondorf was not aware that he possessed the ToP.

Explain why he knew the words of the Triforce well enough to imitate them almost verbatim to Zant later on if he didn't know it, then.

Vertiboy, on Apr 30 2007, 01:00 PM, said:

Okay, so I quoted myself when I clearly proved it, but whatever...just see what you want to see.

No matter how many times you quote yourself, you didn't prove anything you pompous ass.

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With all of that information, you can deduct roughly when Link arrived. Some people just don't have the capacity (not necessarily you) to put it all together because it is too complex for them.

Oh, you're a condescending, pompous ass! It's a double whammy! Fact is, you didn't prve anything and you have so little brain capacity that you believe every word that comes out of your mouth is fact then I guess you're not one to point fingers, are you? And your "citations" are bullshit that you interpret in whatever way you want that suits your theory. None of them say what you wish they did, which is cold, hard proof that your theory is true.

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Next time you disagree, like you don't think that I have disproved someone, give a response that isn't equivelent to just nuh-uh !!!!! I thought that we were above this, people. It is nice to give someone a reason for disagreeing with them in a debate if you wish to be taken seriously.

Your not one to discuss "debate edicate". You're possibly one of the most rude, pompous assholes I've ever seen on the internet, and that's saying something. I've already mentioned why above. Maybe if you went to the trouble of doing more active debating rather than merely calling your interpretations "fact" I wouldn't say that.

[LionHarted]

Fierce Deity Link, on Apr 30 2007, 03:31 PM, said:

Considering the first time I beat him it was with the Biggoron's Sword, I did. Plus, I have a bunch of options with the Megaton Hammer and bottles.

No. You didn't. It's impossible to finish him without the Master Sword.

Vertiboy said

He [Link] talks to Zelda about Ganondorf, they decide to leave him alone, and their relationship with him takes a new direction (Aonuma quote). Years later (Aonuma quote), Ganondorf attacks Hyrule in order to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm (Twilight Princess). Ganondorf is arrested and sentenced to execution (Twilight Princess). I gave citations and all, and only one of those facts are implied.

He [Link] talks to Zelda about Ganondorf
(When?)
they decide to leave him alone
(How?)
and their relationship with him takes a new direction (Aonuma quote).
(Define?)

Years later (Aonuma quote), Ganondorf attacks Hyrule in order to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm (Twilight Princess).
(Wrong. "Years later" refers explicitly to the execution scene. You infer that this attack happened years later.)

Ganondorf is arrested and sentenced to execution (Twilight Princess).
(Good job! )

So, at the end of the day, what have you proven? Not really much of anything.

Edited by LionHarted, 30 April 2007 - 03:51 PM.

[Vertiboy]

To all that believe Link arrived after the Triforce split, canonically answer the following questions:

If Link arrives after Ganondorf has entered the Sacred Realm and made the Triforce split,...

1. ...how exactly would Link's conversation with Zelda make their relationship with Ganondorf "take a whole new direction," or make enough of a difference in the timeline?

2. ...why wouldn't the events of the adult timeline repeat if Ganondorf is aware he has the Triforce of Power?

3. ...what is Zelda doing in Hyrule Castle if it has been attacked? Keep in mind that it was Impa's prediction of the attack that lead them to leave the castle in the first place.

4. ...why would Ganondorf want to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm if he is aware that he has the Triforce of Power?

5. ...why wouldn't Ganondorf be arrested several years later instead of soon after attacking Hyrule Castle the first time (in OoT)?

6. ...why do the Sages, the wisemen of Hyrule, have no clue WTF Ganondorf got the Triforce?

There are more unanswered questions than there would be if Link arrives before he met Zelda:

1. If Link arrives before meeting Zelda, then how is the Door of Time open?


Here is how it works

One Unanswered Question > Multiple Unanswered Questions

Before Meeting Zelda > After Ganondorf Splits Triforce

It is that simple. This is a one-sided debate.

LionHarted said

He [Link] talks to Zelda about Ganondorf
(When?)

Before Link met Zelda. It is the only time in which it would be possible to prevent the events of the adult timeline from repeating, which I will elaborate on next.

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they decide to leave him alone
(How?)

WTF? How do you not understand that? They leave him alone. They do not come in contact with him. They do not try to prevent him from getting the Triforce. If memory serves, it was Zelda's idea to prevent Ganondorf from getting the Triforce. That ironically helped Ganondorf get the Triforce. The best way for Link and Zelda to prevent Ganondorf from getting the Triforce (to their knowledge) would be to leave him alone. Let him run around searching for Spiritual Stones and the Ocarina of Time. If Link is not collecting them, it could take him, let's see, several years to get them all. Which brings me to my next point.

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and their relationship with him takes a new direction (Aonuma quote).
(Define?)

Well, let's use common sense. If you leave someone alone, then you will not have a relationship with them, unless they talk to you. Their relationship with Ganondorf changed in the sense that they had no relationship with Ganondorf. Before, they were trying to prevent him from getting the Triforce. They were trying to stop him. This time, they will do nothing to try and stop him. That is how the relationship changed.

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Years later (Aonuma quote), Ganondorf attacks Hyrule in order to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm (Twilight Princess).
(Wrong. "Years later" refers explicitly to the execution scene. You infer that this attack happened years later.)

You've gotta be kidding me. Seriously, you are scutinizing my words? WTF? Years later can mean several years. Whatever. Okay, several years laterGanondorf attacks Hyrule in order to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm (Twilight Princess). The take away message here is that Ganondorf's arrest and attempted execution does not take place days, weeks, or months after OoT. It takes place (several) years after OoT.

Wow. I really thought that you would know what I meant. I didn't know that you distinguish so differently between years and several years. Excuse me for being a little lazy.

Edited by Vertiboy, 30 April 2007 - 04:32 PM.

[Arturo]

FDL, please, watch your language. Vertiboy, don't be arrogant.

[LionHarted]

1. ...how exactly would Link's conversation with Zelda make their relationship with Ganondorf "take a whole new direction," or make enough of a difference in the timeline?
The same way. Except Ganondorf gets the Triforce of Power earlier.

2. ...why wouldn't the events of the adult timeline repeat if Ganondorf is aware he has the Triforce of Power?
Because they are ready to combat him when he reappears, instead of being caught off-guard. Remember, the sages were unable to awaken because the evil power was flowing through the temples, but were perfectly capable of sealing him once awakened. If they were awakened sooner, they could subdue him sooner.

3. ...what is Zelda doing in Hyrule Castle if it has been attacked? Keep in mind that it was Impa's prediction of the attack that lead them to leave the castle in the first place.
Ganondorf has entered the Sacred Realm. He's not at the castle anymore, and no one knows where he is. Except Link. Why else would he need to warn Zelda? The door is closed now.

4. ...why would Ganondorf want to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm if he is aware that he has the Triforce of Power?
OoT: "Your spirit remained in the Sacred Realm...and then the Triforce fell into Ganondorf's hands.
He went on to invade the Sacred Realm..."
Good question.

5. ...why wouldn't Ganondorf be arrested several years later instead of soon after attacking Hyrule Castle the first time (in OoT)?
He wasn't arrested several years later. He was executed several years later.

6. ...why do the Sages, the wisemen of Hyrule, have no clue WTF Ganondorf got the Triforce?
They have no idea he has the Triforce? I got the impression that they were more shocked that he was coming after them after he was supposed to be dead.




As for the other placement:

1. Why does Link have the Triforce of Courage mark on his hand when he meets Princess Zelda, if not to indicate his possession of it? (Note: He did not have it when he arrived in the Temple of Time; this is before the execution scene.)
2. How and why does Ganondorf acquire his Triforce piece during the execution scene?
3. Apply question two in a modified form to Princess Zelda.
4. Ganondorf's goal was to get the Triforce. OoT's presentation says he did not attempt to take control of the Sacred Realm until after obtaining it. Why would this be different in the Child timeline?
5. When Link left the Temple of Time, why didn't Ganondorf confront him?

Edited by LionHarted, 30 April 2007 - 04:51 PM.

[Raien]

LionHarted, on Apr 30 2007, 10:29 PM, said:

1. Why does Link have the Triforce of Courage mark on his hand when he meets Princess Zelda, if not to indicate his possession of it? (Note: He did not have it when he arrived in the Temple of Time; this is before the execution scene.)

When OoT was released, a split timeline was never intended to occur. Link's possession of the piece was retconned by TWW.

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2. How and why does Ganondorf acquire his Triforce piece during the execution scene?

The goddesses give Ganondorf the Triforce of Power to fulfill his part of the 'divine beast' prophecy; the purpose being to restore peace between the Hyrulians and the Twili by showing them how malevolence leads to destruction.

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3. Apply question two in a modified form to Princess Zelda.

Zelda needed to fulfill her role in the events of the prophecy.

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4. Ganondorf's goal was to get the Triforce. OoT's presentation says he did not attempt to take control of the Sacred Realm until after obtaining it. Why would this be different in the Child timeline?

Ganondorf's means of accessing the Sacred Realm were taken away from him, so he tried to get in by force, as a sign of his blindness and desperation.

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5. When Link left the Temple of Time, why didn't Ganondorf confront him?

If Link came from the future, then Ganondorf would not be expecting to meet him there.

[Duke Serkol]

Arturo, on Apr 30 2007, 09:25 PM, said:

Vertiboy, don't be arrogant.

He shouldn't be, yes... but he is right in his statements. And apparently he knows this

[FDL]

LionHarted, on Apr 30 2007, 04:48 PM, said:

No. You didn't. It's impossible to finish him without the Master Sword.

Beast Form, yes. Human form, no.

jhurvid]When OoT was released, on a split timeline was never intended to occur. Link's possession of the piece was retconned by TWW.[/quote, said:

No, because if a split timeline is true then those MM references are retconned away. MM happening would not be known by anyone and supposedly in Japan many of the "other land" references are nonexistant.

Arturo, on Apr 30 2007, 05:25 PM, said:

FDL, please, watch your language.

Okay.

Duke Serkol, on Apr 30 2007, 06:23 PM, said:

He shouldn't be, yes... but he is right in his statements. And apparently he knows this

Oh, you're doing this now? I had always seen you as one of the more reasonable defenders of this theory, and one who was kinda open to options. I guess not, because you're condoning someone who does the opposite. He's not necessarily right, nor am I, and you aren't either. Neither you nor Vertiboy have any full on proof that you're correct, so you shouldn't pompously act as such. You yourself know that I have countered many of the things you've used as proof and thus I don't think you should be so complacent in your false sense of correctness. Fact is, no one knows what's correct.

[Arturo]

There is just a reference to MM in TWW, that is, the Legend of Fairy. The rest of them are due to mistranslations.

[FDL]

Yeah, that's what I thought you said. And the Legend of the Fairy never says that he lost the ToC then. So does it say that he lost it when he went back in the other versions? It'd be helpful in debates like these, though I'm sure people would just claim the US version was more right for some reason.

[Arturo]

They say he lost the Triforce when he went back on time. But since there are two timelines and we see that Link has it in teh Child Ending, one can assume he lost it again when he went to Termina, because he left Hyrule, just like he did when he travelled in time.

[FDL]

Perhaps he did, but the fact that he had it at all in the child timeline lends credence to my "theory". It's far different than if he had the Triforce from the adult tieline and lost it then. That's irrelevant though, because it's still new info either way.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 30 April 2007 - 06:35 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Fierce Deity Link said

Beast Form, yes. Human form, no.

Yes, that's true. In OoT. However, in TP, you cannot harm Ganondorf with any weapon other than the Master Sword. Of course the Light Arrows still work, so one could assume the sages' sword would as well.

Arturo said

But since there are two timelines and we see that Link has it in teh Child Ending, one can assume he lost it again when he went to Termina, because he left Hyrule, just like he did when he travelled in time.

Why? Its not like he has to lose it in the child timeline, is it?

Duke Serkol said

He shouldn't be, yes... but he is right in his statements. And apparently he knows this

Really? I thought he was just full of shit.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 30 April 2007 - 07:05 PM.

[LionHarted]

Fierce Deity Link, on Apr 30 2007, 05:46 PM, said:

Beast Form, yes. Human form, no.

See Twilight Princess.

[Vertiboy]

Here's the deal. I made the debate about when Link arrives in his childhood kind of complex. Let me simplify it a little by stating why I believe what I believe, one step at a time.

The first step is to ask a question. How did Ganondorf get the Triforce of Power in Ocarina of Time?

Simple, I know. All I need for now is an answer. (By the way, I know the answer. This is just a necessary step.)

[Fyxe]

Answer it yourself then, you munchkin. o.o

[LionHarted]

1. When OoT was released, a split timeline was never intended to occur. Link's possession of the piece was retconned by TWW.

And then promptly unretconned by TP. That doesn't change the answer to the question.

2. The goddesses give Ganondorf the Triforce of Power to fulfill his part of the 'divine beast' prophecy; the purpose being to restore peace between the Hyrulians and the Twili by showing them how malevolence leads to destruction.

This doesn't happen in the Adult timeline, though, despite the same prophecy undoubtedly existing. There was never implied to be antipathy between the Twili and any of the light-dwellers, except for on Zant's part. Zant would never have become a threat without Ganondorf being sent to the Twilight Realm. Without giving Ganondorf the Triforce piece, Zant would never have come to power, and no "restoration of peace" would be necessary whatsoever. Are you suggesting that the goddesses purposely created a monster for the sake of destroying that monster?

3. Zelda needed to fulfill her role in the events of the prophecy.

Zelda didn't need the Triforce of Wisdom to do this; in fact, a large number of people have come to think she gives Midna the Light Force, or her soul, not her Triforce.

4. Ganondorf's means of accessing the Sacred Realm were taken away from him, so he tried to get in by force, as a sign of his blindness and desperation.

Ganondorf was said to be aiming to capture the Triforce in OoT, not conquer the Sacred Realm. Only after he obtained the Triforce of Power did he "go on to invade the Sacred Realm."

5. If Link came from the future, then Ganondorf would not be expecting to meet him there.

Ganondorf was waiting for him to open the portal to the Sacred Realm. Where was he when Link left the Temple of Time?

[Vertiboy]

Fine. I will answer my own questions to speed this debate up.

Q: How did Ganondorf get the Triforce of Power in Ocarina of Time?

A: He entered the Sacred Realm and placed his hand on it. Since he was not balanced, the Triforce split, giving him the Triforce of Power.

Q: How did Ganondorf get into the Sacred Realm in the first place?

A: Link removed the Master Sword from the Pedistal of Time, which opened the gateway to the Sacred Realm.

Q: How did Link reach the Master Sword?

A: He gathered the Spiritual Stones and the Ocarina of Time, placed the Stones in the shrine in front of the Door of Time, played the Song of Time on the Ocarina, and the Door of Time opened.

Q: Why did Link want to get the Master Sword in the first place?

A: He was going to use it to stop Ganondorf from getting the Triforce.

Q: Whose idea was it for Link to use Master Sword to stop Ganondorf?

A: It was Princess Zelda's idea.

Q: Since all of the information above is true, does that mean that Link and Zelda were ironically responsible for Ganondorf getting the Triforce of Power?

A: Yes, it does.

Q: At the end of the game, we see Link sneaking into Hyrule Castle Courtyard to see Zelda. Aonuma said that they had a talk, and as a result of that talk, Link and Zelda decided to leave Ganondorf alone. Let's say that, theoretically, Link arrived before he originally met Zelda. If this theoretical scenario is true, what effect would leaving Ganondorf alone have?

A: Ganondorf would not get his hands on the Triforce of Power as easily because Link would not practically lead him to it this time around. Any attempt of Ganondorf to get the Triforce would be stopped, or at the very least, delayed.

Q: How did Zelda and Impa know about the attack on Hyrule Castle?

A: A dying Hylian soldier in back alley of Hyrule Castle Town said that she predicted that an attack would happen, so she took Zelda, hopped on her horse, and rode off.

Q: Could Impa have taken Zelda back to Hyrule Castle after the attack was over?

A: No, Impa says that Hyrule Castle surrendered shortly after being attacked.

Q: Based on the information above, if Impa predicted one attack, and if Hyrule Castle surrendered, do you think that it is very likely that Zelda ever made it back to Hyrule Castle?

A: It is not very likely.

Q: What happens when Link tries to sneak into Hyrule Castle after he see Impa and Zelda riding away?

A: Hyrule Castle is guarded more heavily. The guard at the front gate cannot be bribed to let Link in, as he could earlier in the game.

Q: Can you make it to Zelda at this time (without 73h h@x)?

A: No, Link can only make it so far. He can make it to the first room inside the castle on the path to the courtyard. He cannot actually make it to the courtyard, where Zelda was earlier in the game.

Q: Let's say that, theoretically, Zelda is back in Hyrule Castle after the attack, despite the evidence in a the questions beforehand. Let's also say, theoretically, Link arrives in his childhood after the Triforce had split. How does Link get into Hyrule Castle at the end of the game if he cannot do it in-game?

A: There is no explaination. It is just a plothole.

Q: Despite the evidence above, let's say that, theoretically, Link is able to sneak into the courtyard and see Zelda after the Triforce has split. What, again, did the Aonuma quote say that Link and Zelda decided to do?

A: They decided to leave Ganondorf alone.

Q: Does that mean that they will not interfere with Ganondorf?

A: Yes, leaving him alone means that they will not interfere with him

Q: What happened to Hyrule in the seven years that Link was asleep in the Chamer of the Sages?

A: Ganondorf used the Triforce of Power to take control of Hyrule, as Sheik said.

Q: If Link and Zelda decide to leave Ganondorf alone after the Triforce has split, then how will that make the events any different than the 7 years in which Link was asleep in the Chamber of the Sages?

A: The only difference is that Link would be there this time around, but since he and Zelda have decided to leave Ganondorf alone, the events will not happen any differently.

Q: If Link knew that Ganondorf used the Triforce of Power to rise to the top in the adult timeline, then wouldn't he somehow try to prevent it from happening in the child timeline?

A: Yes, he would.

Q: Does it make sense that Link and Zelda would decide to leave Ganondorf alone, even though Link knows that the events of the adult timeline will just repeat if they do not interfere?

A: No, it does not.

Q: Is there a logical reason why Link and Zelda would decide not interfere with Ganondorf's plans if they knew the events of the adult timeline would repeat?

A: No, there is not.

Q: Recalling the earlier set of questions, is there a logical reason why Link and Zelda would decide not to interfere with Ganondorf's plans if they knew what would happen if they interfered

A: Yes, there is.

Q: What is that logical reason?

A: If they interfere, they will ironically help Ganondorf to get the Triforce.

Q: Which idea is more consistent with the idea in Aonuma's quote, in which Link and Zelda leave Ganondorf alone: Link arriving in his childhood before he met Zelda or Link arriving in his childhood after the Triforce had already split?

A: Link arriving in his childhood before he met Zelda is more consistent with that idea.

Q: What plothole is involved if Link arrives before he met Zelda?

A: The Door of Time is open before Link opened it.

Q: Is that it?

A: Yes, it is.

Q: On the one hand, we have an option which has one plothole, but otherwise is consistent with the information in OoT, TP, and Aonuma's quote. On the other hand, we have an option which has trouble getting Zelda back into Hyrule Castle, we have trouble getting Link into Hyrule Castle, and Aonuma's quote is inconsistent and would not make sense in that context. Based on all of the information we have so far, which of the two options is correct?

A: Link arrived before he met Princess Zelda.

Edited by Vertiboy, 02 May 2007 - 06:44 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

I agree with most of your post, except this part:

Vertiboy, on May 2 2007, 11:42 PM, said:

Q: What happened to Hyrule in the seven years that Link was asleep in the Chamer of the Sages?

A: Ganondorf used the Triforce of Power to take control of Hyrule, as Sheik said.

[b]Q: If Link and Zelda decide to leave Ganondorf alone after the Triforce has split, then how will that make the events any different than the 7 years in which Link was asleep in the Chamber of the Sages?

A: The only difference is that Link would be there this time around, but since he and Zelda have decided to leave Ganondorf alone, the events will not happen any differently.

Q: If Link knew that Ganondorf used the Triforce of Power to rise to the top in the adult timeline, then wouldn't he somehow try to prevent it from happening in the child timeline?

A: Yes, he would.

Q: Does it make sense that Link and Zelda would decide to leave Ganondorf alone, even though Link knows that the events of the adult timeline will just repeat if they do not interfere?

A: No, it does not.

You say Ganondorf took over Hyrule with the Triforce of Power... but if Link doesn't open the Door of Time (again) and take the Master Sword to let him in, in the seven years to come, Ganondorf won't be able to take the Triforce, which is what allowed him to conquer Hyrule.
This, I believe, is why when he lost his patience and attacked Hyrule, the Sages were able to subdue him.

And, further ensuring that Ganondorf could not get into the Sacred Realm, Link not only left him alone, but went away on a journey with the Ocarina of Time, the key to open the Door of Time.

[Showsni]

Quote

Q: Why did Link want to get the Master Sword in the first place?

A: He was going to use it to stop Ganondorf from getting the Triforce.

Q: Whose idea was it for Link to use Master Sword to stop Ganondorf?

A: It was Princess Zelda's idea.

Q: Since all of the information above is true, does that mean that Link and Zelda were ironically responsible for Ganondorf getting the Triforce of Power?

A: Yes, it does.

False. Link and Zelda never wanted the Master Sword - they never even knew it was there. Their plan was simply to get the triforce before Ganon could, to keep it safe. (Sure, it doesn't change the gist of your argument, but I'm pedantic).

You are arguing from the "Aonuma speaks truth, split timeline is right" perspective, though. From a single timeline, then when you say that since Ganon is being given the ToP as before nothing will change, they can say exactly. OoT happens in it's entirety.

Zelda being in Hyrule Castle isn't too much of a difficulty. The castle clearly hasn;t surrendered after Zelda left - their are still soldiers there. Security's tightened, in fact, making it even safer to return once Ganon's gone. And as for Link getting in, that's just a gameplay mechanic.