91 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

I don't think Link, Ganon, Midna, Zelda, any of them saw that image of Zant's neck snapping. That was for the player and nobody else. It's possible to imagine that maybe Ganon saw it as a vision before he died, but I hardly imagine his last thought would be about Zant of all things.

[CID Farwin]

LISTEN TO FYXE!

This is clearly symbolism. This is how I remember it(My internet's too slow; can't watch movie): Ganondorf is standing, impaled on the master sword. The triforce mark on his hand dissapeares. Zant is seen looking at his master, and his neck snaps right before(if not at the same time) we see Ganondorf die.

Zant says something about how Ganon will continually revive him, so when Ganon dies, so do Zant's chances at revival. It's very straightforward.

Zant stays alive because of Ganondorf's magic. Why doesn't Ganondorf let him die? because he's also gaining power from Zant.

[SteveT]

Watching the video, Zant didn't tilt his head nearly enough for a fatal snapping. He didn't even tilt it enough to satisfy a high school yearbook photographer.

[MikePetersSucks]

I'm of the idea that Ganondorf, being the asshole he is, decided to magically kill Zant on his last breath.

[Veteran]

I like the idea of it being "Zant killed Ganon". Zant thought Ganon was a god. If he was waiting around for Ganon to revive him only for Ganon to have his ass handed to him, Zant's realisation of being used like a puppet and being promised nothing would give him reason to terminate his false god's life.

I don't think that *is* the case, but it's a nice idea.

[Fyxe]

Except that, like somebody mentioned, it would be a complete 180 in character development and would be just really poor characterisation.

MPS... Why would Ganon *bother*? I doubt he gives a flying heck about whether Zant lives or dies. If anything, it's in his favour if Zant stays alive, because Ganon USED Zant to revive himself. They were both *connected*. Their origin of magic was identical, and interconnected. That's why we see the symbolism of Zant's neck twisting like a broken puppet.

[Raien]

Except that, like somebody mentioned, it would be a complete 180 in character development and would be just really poor characterisation.

MPS... Why would Ganon *bother*? I doubt he gives a flying heck about whether Zant lives or dies. If anything, it's in his favour if Zant stays alive, because Ganon USED Zant to revive himself. They were both *connected*. Their origin of magic was identical, and interconnected. That's why we see the symbolism of Zant's neck twisting like a broken puppet.

Ganon needed Zant to return him to the Light World (stated), not necessarily to revive him (the Twilight Mirror also possessed malice). You are perfectly correct about the origin of magic being identical.

[Nevermind]

I wanna know how Zant would kill Ganon anyway. If Zant had the power to kill Ganon, why would he need Ganon's power to beat out Midna and the rest of the Royal Family in the first place? Don't say he didn't need it either, because if he didn't, they would be gone before he even encountered Ganon in the first place.

[D~N]

I think they made it clear enough that Zant doesn't kill Ganondorf, and that it is the Master Sword that, ya know, is sticking out of his wound that kills him. After all, they make it quite clear in every Zelda game that only the light arrows and Master Sword can kill Ganondorf. The Ganondorf killing Zant theory is also interesting, but it's been said; he's got his hands full.

And SteveT's got the right idea; he hardly tilts his head. I mean, you've never cracked your knuckles? You crack your fingers when you wanna act tough or strong; cracking your neck is similar. the way Zant (could have) done it makes good sense. However, I've yet to see a Japaneese horror film or something similar, so I wouldn't know. But you must remember the context; just because it was made in Japan doesn't mean it has a Japaneese style. I mean, you remember the hidden village? VERY western. I think that if it were a japaneese cultural reference, the NOA team would have filtered it out.

[Showsni]

Fyxe is making a lot of sense. Zant worshipped Ganon; he wouldn't (and probably couldn't) kill him.

[Fyxe]

Ganon needed Zant to return him to the Light World (stated), not necessarily to revive him (the Twilight Mirror also possessed malice). You are perfectly correct about the origin of magic being identical.

Don't give me that 'malice' stuff. I don't know where you're getting that from, and the other topics involving it confuse the heck out of me. Midna herself says, after you beat Zant, that Ganondorf used Zant to revive himself. But I'm glad you agree about the magic.

And SteveT's got the right idea; he hardly tilts his head. I mean, you've never cracked your knuckles? You crack your fingers when you wanna act tough or strong; cracking your neck is similar. the way Zant (could have) done it makes good sense.

Except that it seems entirely out of character. If he was doing that, surely he would have seen him do that before? So it wouldn't seem so bloody random? Besides, it wasn't a neck crack. Nobody's neck moves like that when they crack it. It was like a puppet's head twisting or snapping.

However, I've yet to see a Japaneese horror film or something similar, so I wouldn't know. But you must remember the context; just because it was made in Japan doesn't mean it has a Japaneese style. I mean, you remember the hidden village? VERY western. I think that if it were a japaneese cultural reference, the NOA team would have filtered it out.

It's not a Japanese cultural reference, it's *symbolism*, it's just that Japanese anime and films use it often. I'm trying to think of an example in a western film, I'm sure it must exist somewhere. Kill Bill probably has a similar thing. It's used in western horrors in a less symbolic sense - instead of seeing someone die, the scene cuts suddenly as the death blow is given and we see something entirely different. The difference is that Japanese films often cut to something symbolic, like, if a character regularly carries a rose, we would see petals fall from a withered rose. So to represent Ganon's death, we see Zant's (being Ganon's puppet) neck twist to a nasty cracking sound. Like I've mentioned before, it serves two roles - it shows that Ganon is dead, and shows that the threat from Zant is gone for good.

It makes a lot less sense that Zant's face would just pop out of nowhere while he effectively goes 'in yo face, SUCKAH' and does a completely unprecedented 180 in personality. That's just, frankly, bloody fucking stupid.

Edited by Fyxe, 24 January 2007 - 06:05 PM.

[D~N]

You explained that quite well; the rose example is something I've seen before. Now I understand. However, I don't give in that easily. You can't simply discredit my theory by adding credibility to your own. What I mean is, simply providing examples for your own theory doesn't give you the right to call someone else's bloody fucking stupid. But I know your Fyxe, so I know not to take you seriously, heh heh.

But it seems to me that you don't like my theory because of it's randomness. However, the sheer fact that he pops up out of nowhere is random, not to mention that Zant's character, as a whole, is very unusual to say the least. However, I have no proof to say he changed as a character. In fact, neither of us have proof, and that's the problem. You can't proove a character's personal reasons for appearance without some sort of textual source. The only thing we can go by is our own opinions, which simply can't be argued over. I see your point, and it's a good one. But arguing over something that can't be proven is very difficult, to say the least.

But I shall continue to fight!

What's your opinion on his location? Look at the background behind Zant, describe what you see, and tell me what you think of it, if you would please? To me, it seems that he's floating. Any idea as to where he is or why he's just floatin around?

This is more difficult than I though, since he doesn't say anything!! >_<

[Nevermind]

He's floating around in Ganon's mind, most likely. I'd say it's more probable that Ganon is not actually seeing Zant, but a mere image of Zant. A representation of their loss. That is under the assumption that the image of Zant is meant to be seen by Ganon at all and isn't JUST a symbolic image for the viewer.

[Raien]

Don't give me that 'malice' stuff. I don't know where you're getting that from, and the other topics involving it confuse the heck out of me.

It's very simple. Auru says that the Twilight Mirror possesses "the malice of the doomed inmates", namely the Twili's ancestors. Ganondorf tells us it was the malice of the Twili's ancestors who empowered him, since they "defied the gods with petty magic". According to Midna and Zant, the descendants of that tribe lived in harmony, not feeling malice or desire. This means Ganondorf could not have been referring to the current Twili for his empowerment. Zant is an individual, not a tribe, so Ganondorf cannot be referring to him either. This leaves only the Twilight Mirror as a possible source for Ganondorf's empowerment.

Midna herself says, after you beat Zant, that Ganondorf used Zant to revive himself.

She explains how Zant got Ganondorf's power, which leads onto how he took over the Twilight Realm and merged it with the Light World. There is nothing about Ganondorf's revival in that cutscene.

Edited by jhurvid, 25 January 2007 - 07:35 AM.

[Fyxe]

You explained that quite well; the rose example is something I've seen before. Now I understand. However, I don't give in that easily. You can't simply discredit my theory by adding credibility to your own.

But I was saying it's uncredible. It's out of character and out of general Zelda style. It's also really anti-climatic and rather childish. While Zant's behavior is generally somewhat childish and manic, I mean that it's childish given the dramatic events that are occuring. Also, like I've said, he's shown no examples of even a split second of disatisfaction with Ganon.

You can't proove a character's personal reasons for appearance without some sort of textual source.

He didn't *choose* to appear, the designers chose to show him briefly, for a *reason*. He's not actually there, he's never been there, else we would have seen him sooner, and it would be less random. The very fact that it IS random means it's symbolic. The designers don't set out to confuse us just for the heck of it.

What's your opinion on his location? Look at the background behind Zant, describe what you see, and tell me what you think of it, if you would please? To me, it seems that he's floating. Any idea as to where he is or why he's just floatin around?

I can't remember what the background is, I doubt the designers really put much thought into it since Zant appears for only a split second. But even if he does appear to be floating in the sky, so what? Has everyone forgotten the ending to OoT? Link and Zelda weren't *really* floating in the sky, y'know.

It's very simple. Auru says that the Twilight Mirror possesses "the malice of the doomed inmates", namely the Twili's ancestors. Ganondorf tells us it was the malice of the Twili's ancestors who empowered him, since they "defied the gods with petty magic".

Clearly, the representation of this continuing malice is Zant. The malice and desire still continues throughout the ages, and Zant is the person who possesses this desire. Ganondorf didn't take the malice from the ancestors because they were *gone* by the time he was sent there. The first person he found was Zant.

According to Midna and Zant, the descendants of that tribe lived in harmony, not feeling malice or desire. This means Ganondorf could not have been referring to the current Twili for his empowerment. Zant is an individual, not a tribe, so Ganondorf cannot be referring to him either.

Ganondorf never refers to him gaining his power from a tribe, just from the malice remaining from that tribe. That malice is embodied in Zant.

She explains how Zant got Ganondorf's power, which leads onto how he took over the Twilight Realm and merged it with the Light World. There is nothing about Ganondorf's revival in that cutscene.

I'm not talking about the cutscene. I'm talking about after the cutscene. I'm fairly certain she clearly says that Ganondorf used Zant to revive himself.

Edited by Fyxe, 25 January 2007 - 08:49 AM.

[Nevermind]

The background is a big white space full of white-coated whiteness with white filling. I think.

[Raien]

Clearly, the representation of this continuing malice is Zant. The malice and desire still continues throughout the ages, and Zant is the person who possesses this desire. Ganondorf didn't take the malice from the ancestors because they were *gone* by the time he was sent there. The first person he found was Zant.

The malice of the ancestors was contained in the Twilight Mirror, as stated by Auru at the Lake Hylia watchtower. He later says in Telma's Bar that the Sages themselves told him about the ancestors' malice. Not only is this quote much more direct than the stretch of "Zant carrying on the ancestors' malice" (when we know it was also his own hatred at the Royal Family for not making him king), but it connects visually with the execution scene, since Ganondorf was empowered in the presence of that mirror.

Ganondorf never refers to him gaining his power from a tribe, just from the malice remaining from that tribe. That malice is embodied in Zant.
I'm not talking about the cutscene. I'm talking about after the cutscene. I'm fairly certain she clearly says that Ganondorf used Zant to revive himself.

Fortunately, I have access to a TP Quote FAQ (although it only covers the important storyline quotes that were provided by TSA's videos).

http://www.zeldauniv...ead.php?t=54665

I don't see any quote referring to Zant reviving Ganondorf.

Edited by jhurvid, 25 January 2007 - 11:06 AM.

[Tekky]

I think this is the quote you are referring to...

The Gerudo Desert once held a prison built to hold the worst criminals this
land has ever known...
The criminals who were sentenced to death were sent directly to the underworld
by a cursed mirror that was kept in the prison...
Now that prison is condemned, and even the road leading to the desert is
impassable.
This desert at world's end... It still holds the cursed mirror and the malice
of the doomed inmates...

Edited by Tekky, 25 January 2007 - 01:14 PM.

[Raien]

I think this is the quote you are referring to...

Yes, it is. That quote confirms the Twili's malice was contained in the Twilight Mirror and explains what the Sages meant by their own "carelessness" when they brought Ganondorf into it's presence.

[D~N]

Yeah that pretty much settles it, heh heh. But don't think your theory is dead, Fyxe; the mirror and Zant can both give him power. The way I see it, the mirror activated his Triforce, and gave him a bit of power. But for his true power to be completely restored, he has to use Zant and his hissy-fit. Because really, no one seems more pissed than Zant. So I think it's both.

I can't remember what the background is, I doubt the designers really put much thought into it since Zant appears for only a split second. But even if he does appear to be floating in the sky, so what? Has everyone forgotten the ending to OoT? Link and Zelda weren't *really* floating in the sky, y'know.

Oh god, now I'm gunna sound stupid. They aren't floating in the sky??!

But I was saying it's uncredible. It's out of character and out of general Zelda style. It's also really anti-climatic and rather childish. While Zant's behavior is generally somewhat childish and manic, I mean that it's childish given the dramatic events that are occuring. Also, like I've said, he's shown no examples of even a split second of disatisfaction with Ganon.

Why would it be childish? I think it's be pretty good character development, if you ask me. It seemed to me that by the end of the fight with Zant, he was in denial that he'd die. He was so sure that Ganon would revive him. Then, cut to scene with Ganondorf, you see Zant at the end, dead, floating in the clouds, hating Ganon.(<--assumption) It would make good sense that, if he did die and Ganon didn't reborn him, that he'd be pissed at Ganon.

You have to give me at leat that much; that if Ganon didn't revive Zant then Zant would be mad at Ganon. Right? There's no way for sure to know if he really did revive him or not, but that's a mystery. To me, Ganon doesn't seem like that nice of a guy. He's perfectly happy on his throne in Hyrule Castle. However, if Ganny's going to hold up to his word, then I guess your ideas make more sense than my own.

I'm going to look for a video of Zant fighting Link, and watch the ending. I'll pay close attention and tell you what I think. It could change my mind.

[Tekky]

Yes, it is. That quote confirms the Twili's malice was contained in the Twilight Mirror and explains what the Sages meant by their own "carelessness" when they brought Ganondorf into it's presence.

Technically that quote DOESN'T say that the mirror contain's the Twili's malice; the wording of the sentence implies that it is the desert that still holds the malice of the twili...

[CID Farwin]

Just beat TP again Last night JUST for this argument. Seeing how everyone seemingly skipped my post, I'll probably end up restating a few things.

I can't remember what the background is, I doubt the designers really put much thought into it since Zant appears for only a split second. But even if he does appear to be floating in the sky, so what? Has everyone forgotten the ending to OoT? Link and Zelda weren't *really* floating in the sky, y'know.

The background when you see Zant is some wierd bluish-yellow-white color(Cyan, maybe?). NOT the Twilight realm, NOT the sky.
Before we see Zant we see Ganondorf DYING! There's a sword going through him, the triforce symbol dissapeares, he starts gasping, and his eyes are half-closed. He's dying regardless of anything about Zant. we then see Zant jerk and some sort of snapping sound. Very likely this is meant to be Zant's neck breaking. And then Ganondorf slumps, dead.(at least he's not breathing anymore)

Oh god, now I'm gunna sound stupid. They aren't floating in the sky??!

They could be, but for some reason, the common consensus is that they aren't.

[Fyxe]

You guys do realise that 'malice' isn't a tangeable object, right? It's a word. You can't 'bottle' malice into a mirror or whatever. Have you NO concept of the term 'metaphor'?

I'll respond properly when I have time, but just think about that for a bit. I think some people have to understand that some things are implied, some things are suggested, and not everything in a good story is told blatantly in stone cold factual terms.

[coinilius]

You guys do realise that 'malice' isn't a tangeable object, right? It's a word. You can't 'bottle' malice into a mirror or whatever. Have you NO concept of the term 'metaphor'?

However, emotions and other abstract, non-tangible qaulities like good and evil are often represented as if they were forces that could be harnessed and controlled/used against others/trapped etc in fiction - just look at Ghostbusters 2! I'm not saying it has to be in this case, but it's not completely unheard of. Nor is it completely out of the realm of the possible that the strong malicious emotions of the Interlopers who were sent through the Mirror didn't 'imprint' on it in a way that could be felt by others.

[BourgeoisJerry]

The Gerudo Desert once held a prison built to hold the worst criminals this
land has ever known...
The criminals who were sentenced to death were sent directly to the underworld
by a cursed mirror that was kept in the prison...
Now that prison is condemned, and even the road leading to the desert is
impassable.
This desert at world's end... It still holds the cursed mirror and the malice
of the doomed inmates...

As Tekky said, "technically that quote DOESN'T say that the mirror contain's the Twili's malice." It actually doesn't say anything about the Twili, just the doomed inmates, and the quote makes no connection between the malice and the mirror. It's also worth noting that the desert, which Auru says still holds the malice of the doomed inmates, happens to have a TON of undead enemies. Seriously, take a stroll through that dungeon and tell me "the malice of the doomed inmates" isn't already accounted for without it being contained in the mirror.

[Fyxe]

just look at Ghostbusters 2!

...o.o Riiiight. Totally comparible. ¬.¬

I'm not saying it has to be in this case, but it's not completely unheard of. Nor is it completely out of the realm of the possible that the strong malicious emotions of the Interlopers who were sent through the Mirror didn't 'imprint' on it in a way that could be felt by others.

I'm not saying it isn't completely impossible, but since it's stated that Ganondorf used Zant to revive himself (as well as we actually visually see it) then can't we just see malice as a word and a metaphor, and has much more relation to the undead that live in the Aribiter's Grounds?

Edited by Fyxe, 26 January 2007 - 07:55 AM.

[coinilius]

...o.o Riiiight. Totally comparible. ¬.¬

Well it is going by the point I was making, which was just that there is precedence in other fictional works of intangible things like 'malice' being used as if they were were tangible (since your earlier comment was about how 'malice' couldn't be used as if it was a tangible object). Other plot specifics of Ghostbusters 2 were irrelevent.

I'm not saying it is, but since it's stated that Ganondorf used Zant to revive himself (as well as we actually visually see it) then can't we just see malice as a word and a metaphor?

Well, I wasn't really trying to support the 'malice of the mirror reviving Ganon' theory (yeah, I know the post sounded like I was, but I actually think that whole malice of the mirror idea of jhurvid's seemed to come out of left field), I was mostly just trying to point out that emotions/abstract concepts are often treated as if they can be 'harnessed' in fiction. Like BourgeoisJerry pointed out, however, the quote in question doesn't really say that the mirror holds the malice of the twili anyway, just that the prison holds the mirror and the malice of the doomed inmates. If malice is being contained anywhere, it certainly doesn't have to be in the mirror.

Edited by coinilius, 26 January 2007 - 08:14 AM.

[Fyxe]

Well it is going by the point I was making, which was just that there is precedence in other fictional works of intangible things like 'malice' being used as if they were were tangible (since your earlier comment was about how 'malice' couldn't be used as if it was a tangible object). Other plot specifics of Ghostbusters 2 were irrelevent.

There's no precedant in Zelda, and if this were so, they would have made it clear instead of using malice in exactly the same way anyone else would use malice.

Well, I wasn't really trying to support the 'malice of the mirror reviving Ganon' theory (yeah, I know the post sounded like I was), I was mostly just trying to point out that emotions/abstract concepts are often treated as if they can be 'harnessed' in fiction.

Fair enough, but usually, when this is the case (such as, say, the Force in Star Wars) this is made clear and even when it's done subtly, there's no question that something mystical is going on. One or two vague quotes (one of which quite blatantly is talking about the undead monsters) do not lend themselves to such a massive hypothosis of 'malice' as a containable force.

[coinilius]

There's no precedant in Zelda, and if this were so, they would have made it clear instead of using malice in exactly the same way anyone else would use malice.

In terms of precedence, what about the way evil is treated in the Zelda series?

Edited by coinilius, 26 January 2007 - 08:29 AM.

[Arturo]

There's no precedant in Zelda, and if this were so, they would have made it clear instead of using malice in exactly the same way anyone else would use malice.

There is precedence. In ALttP manual it stated how Ganon's evil mood or malice flew to Hyrule. That is exactly the same as what Rauru said about ganondorf's evil "radiating from the temples of Hyrule".