91 replies to this topic

[Tekky]

Ok so we know the drill: After impaling Ganondorf with the Master Sword, and him going on about something I can't remember...

Zant appears, cracks his neck to the side and Ganondorf "dies"

There seems to be a big divide among people; some say that Zant was the one who killed Ganon; others say that it represents Ganondorf's demise, and is nothing more than symbolism...

My question is; where do the wonderful people here at LA stand on this issue?

Discuss.

[~Light Goddess~]

Did Zant really kill himself...? I didn't want to think that it ended that way, even though it seemed that Ganny still wouldn't FREAKIN' DIE!!!

[Fyxe]

Um, no, Zant didn't kill Ganon. That's absolute nonsense. It's symbolism. Doesn't anyone remember what Zant said before Midna 'popped' him? He said something along the lines of 'as long as my God exists, he will resurrect me endlessly'. Zant's neck snapping represents the fact that Zant is finally dead for good, meaning Ganon has died.

I can't believe this is even an object of discussion.

[SteveT]

Zant's neck snapping represents the fact that Zant is finally dead for good, meaning Ganon has died.

Or that Ganon was making space for his own soul in Zant's body.

Paves the way pretty well for Link to the Past, eh?

Incidentally, Tekky, you might consider changing the title of this thread to something more not-a-spoiler.

[Fyxe]

Or that Ganon was making space for his own soul in Zant's body.

Paves the way pretty well for Link to the Past, eh?

HI FANFIC.

But yes, Tekky, change the topic title. In fact, jhuvid needs to change the title of his topic, too.

Edited by Fyxe, 22 January 2007 - 07:38 PM.

[FDL]

Yeah, I sorta see it as Zant just insanely saying, "I guess we've lost, huh buddy?" He was smiling because he's crazy, not because he was killing Ganondorf.

[SteveT]

HI FANFIC.

Hi there!

Here's the problem with what you're saying, Fyxe. Yes, Zant said that Ganon would continue to resurrect him. That does not imply that Ganon's death would result in Zant's immediate demise. Bringing someone back to life is not the same as sustaining that person's life. For instance, say I had a heart attack and nearly died. EMT saves me with a defibrillator. Then he turns it off. Do I immediately have a second heart attack? No. I'm alive now, and something bad would have to happen before I died again.



All we know is that Zant died at the same time as Ganondorf. No mechanism was established in-game.

Your theory only has validity if Ganon did NOT resurrect Zant before Link killed Ganon. In that case, we saw Zant's spirit being laid to rest.

So you'll just have to indulge us if we want to talk about this.

Edited by SteveT, 22 January 2007 - 07:54 PM.

[Fyxe]

Yeah, cos defibrillators are exactly the same as being given life by a demonic god. o.o

And some people need defibrillators to stay alive, I'll have you know.

[Showsni]

Titles changed. Though, if you want them changed to something better, just post.

For the record, the Zant neck snapping thing was just weird.

[Nevermind]

I think the fact that Midna assploded Zant into tiny little pieces more than accomodates for Zant needing Ganondorf to stay alive from that point on, seeing as he - as far as we know - had yet to be resurrected again.

[SteveT]

And some people need defibrillators to stay alive, I'll have you know.

I'm pretty sure a constant electric potential of that magnitude would do very, very bad things to neurons.


If that were the case, Ganon would have let him die so he could focus his full power on smiting Link and Zelda. Especially when he started losing. He's doesn't give a crap about his minions after they fail, let alone when they're holding him back.

Edited by SteveT, 22 January 2007 - 08:37 PM.

[Raien]

In response to the question.

-The Sages stabbed Ganondorf with their blade in an attempt to destroy his evil magic (stated).
-Ganondorf's evil magic was what prevented Zant from true death.

I infer from this that the Master Sword completed what the Sages' blade failed to achieve; it destroyed Ganondorf's evil magic. Without that magic to sustain him, Zant died (with the neck-snapping symbolising this).

[D~N]

Why does everyone insist Zant dies? Does it say that in game, or are you infering this? Because to me, it was a very symbolic way of Zant "getting over" his obsesion with his god, Ganon. In other words, he realizes Ganondorf is not as great as he thought he was, so he decides to observe the final battle. When Ganondorf dies, Zant cracks his neck in a very "in-yo-face!" kinda way. No one kills anyone, except Link; he kills Ganondorf.

Zant realizes he's been dooped by Ganondorf at this point, and he kinda swtiches sides like the Moblin King did when you defeat him. It's just character development implimented in a dual-symbolic way; in both Ganon's death and Zant's character. I guess what i'm trying to say is that Zant has finially "gone to the good side", and the neck snap symbolizes that.


However, I have a question, which could perhaps support my theory; is Zant floating in the sky when he snaps his neck?

If so, I presume Zant's already dead by this point, from the battle with Link. Likewise, I beleive that Ganondorf did not revive Zant if he is, infact, dead and floating in the clouds.

Follow me on this, but I think that this "lack of revival" is what causes Zant to "switch sides"; since Ganondorf betrayed Zant by not reviving him, Zant hates Ganon from the afterlife/clouds/heaven/wherever he may be floating. In his hatred Zant does the "in-yo-face" neck-snap. (Although it doesn't kill Ganon)

But perhaps I'm wrong.

[Reflectionist]

"Anything you shall desire, I shall desire it too."

That sounds like signing away your soul to me.

[Fyxe]

I'm pretty sure a constant electric potential of that magnitude would do very, very bad things to neurons.

Oh those things? I was thinking of something else. My point still stands, though.

One thing for sure, the neck snap was not an 'in-yo-face' thing. My god. Of course it wasn't. It was a disturbing, chilling crack of bone that implies sudden and instant loss of life. It was freaky. It was out of the blue. It was symbolic. It was there to show that the threat from Ganondorf and Zant was gone in one fell swoop.

[SteveT]

One thing for sure, the neck snap was not an 'in-yo-face' thing. My god. Of course it wasn't. It was a disturbing, chilling crack of bone that implies sudden and instant loss of life.

Ever read "The Dark Knight Returns?"

And my point also stands. If we assume that Ganon was pumping his magic into keeping Zant alive (or there's no reason Zant would suddenly die upon Ganon's death), then why would Ganon have kept Zant alive throughout the fight with Link? He's wasting his energy and focus on a failed minion, and putting himself at risk by doing so.

Periodic, full resurrection makes sense from a character standpoint. Actively keeping Zant alive does not.

Edited by SteveT, 22 January 2007 - 10:59 PM.

[SOAP]

I'm with D~N on this one. We see Zant tilt his head but he doesn't drop dead. Ganon does.

Why would killing Ganondorf kill Zant instantly? More to thje point, why would it cause Zant's neck to snap? It seems more like Zant was giving Ganon the finger. Infact I'm pretty sure Zant is smirking.

Edited by SOAP, 23 January 2007 - 01:48 AM.

[Nevermind]

Zant always has a crazy smile. And to be precise, we don't see Ganondorf drop dead either, we only see his eyes roll back in his head, in which his death is implied - the same was as Zant's neck being awkwardly snapped implies the death of Zant. I think that Zant was dead throughout the entire ordeal, and had yet to be resurrected by Ganondorf, making the neck-snapping purely symbolic as a revelation to either the player, or Ganon himself, that it's over; he's dead, Zant is dead, and this is the end.

[Tekky]

Sorry for the spoilerness of the thread title! Completely didnt occur to me last night, evidentally my brain was not in gear before engaging my mouth!! Cheers for the change Showsni

Its interesting to hear you guys perspective on it; I was getting fed up of reading on Wikipedia etc about how Zant appeared and killed Ganon, etc!

[D~N]

for reference...

To me it seems like what I earlier mentioned, even after tripple-checking. He only tilts his head a little. It's about four minutes into the video, if you'd like to see.

[Raien]

Yet you clearly hear is neck snap. The neck is broken.

[Hero of Legend]

I am seriously questioning your status as video game nerds if you guys can't even recognize the classic 'neck-crack of death', which is used by villains much in the same way as the 'hand-wave of doom' (which Zant coincidentally excels at).

Yet you clearly hear is neck snap. The neck is broken.

Wow, I guess my neck must be broken then? Cuz I just did that same thing as Zant did.

[Fyxe]

The so called 'classic neck snap of death', which, quite franky, I have never heard of, doesn't exactly exist in Japanese manga or anime, or pretty much anything outside of American comic books or video games themed on an American basis that have absolutely no relation to Zelda in the slightest.

Zant doesn't do that, for one single reason.

IT'S DAMN STUPID. My god. This is Zelda. Not some mindless action movie. Zant is an insane, twisted fool who showed NO signs of disobeying his god. Why, dear the goddesses, would he do that *anyway*? It's completely against his character. Can you honestly see him going 'in yo face, beyatch' to Ganon?

Honestly, go watch some Japanese horror movies. Or any classic Japanese/Asian films. That moment of Zant's neck snapping was akin to various symbolic methods used in Japanese films. It's common stylistic effect.

Edited by Fyxe, 23 January 2007 - 03:54 PM.

[Raien]

Wow, I guess my neck must be broken then? Cuz I just did that same thing as Zant did.

Breaking the neck is not reliant on it's position, since it is possible to break the neck without moving it at all (depending on how you do it). In TP, the cracking sound is what tells us that Zant's neck broke.

[Fyxe]

He doesn't move his neck in the same way that people do when they crack their necks anyway. It was a sudden snap, like a twig.

Edited by Fyxe, 23 January 2007 - 03:57 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

The so called 'classic neck snap of death', which, quite franky, I have never heard of, doesn't exactly exist in Japanese manga or anime, or pretty much anything outside of American comic books or video games themed on an American basis that have absolutely no relation to Zelda in the slightest.

You've never heard of it, and yet you know it is in American comics? Right... (Joke, BTW) Personally, I wouldn't know much about that, since I'm not American. I do know I have seen similar things before, though. Oh well, I'll just drop it.

hy, dear the goddesses, would he do that *anyway*? It's completely against his character. Can you honestly see him going 'in yo face, beyatch' to Ganon?

'
Given that Ganondorf failed his promise to revive him, I would say Zant has a perfectly undestandable reason of returning the favour.

He doesn't move his neck in the same way that people do when they crack their necks anyway. It was a sudden snap, like a twig.

I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove.

Breaking the neck is not reliant on it's position, since it is possible to break the neck without moving it at all (depending on how you do it). In TP, the cracking sound is what tells us that Zant's neck broke.

Duh. I was talking about the sound. Or what, you've never cracked any joints?

Edited by Hero of Legend, 23 January 2007 - 04:55 PM.

[Firelord-Link]

It could also have been Ganon's last thought. He was angry at Zant for losing the fight with Link, because, if Zant would have won, he wouldn't have been dead.

I know Ganon is a lot more powerfull as Zant and lost too, but he has to blame someone... And from his point of view, it would have been very satisfying to see Zant break his neck, even when it only was his imagination...

But it wasn't true, because Midna already killed Zant with the Fused Shadow...Or at least, that is what i saw...

[Fyxe]

Given that Ganondorf failed his promise to revive him, I would say Zant has a perfectly undestandable reason of returning the favour.

There's no evidence to suggest that Zant would not be revived. Ganon was a bit busy trying to kill Midna and Link, however.

I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove.

It means it wasn't Zant mocking his god. It was something else. It certainly didn't look anything like Zant mocking Ganon from beyond the grave, which doesn't make much logical sense anyway as Zant never made any reference to any disatisfaction with Ganon, and it *definitely* wasn't Zant killing Ganon, which is just bloody nonsense.

It comes down to this.

The last we see of Zant, he was defiant to the very end. One of his final words was him saying that he would never be defeated, because he would be revived again and again. Therefore, the player is left with the concern of Zant still in the background during the battle with Ganon. HOWEVER, once Ganon is defeated, we see Zant's neck snapping, signifying that the threat of both Ganon *and* Zant are gone.

Edited by Fyxe, 23 January 2007 - 05:13 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

There's no evidence to suggest that Zant would not be revived. Ganon was a bit busy trying to kill Midna and Link, however.

Whatever chanses Zant had of being revived were pretty much obliverated when Link did his little thing. And incidentally, it was only after that Zant appeared.

It means it wasn't Zant mocking his god. It was something else. It certainly didn't look anything like Zant mocking Ganon from beyond the grave, which doesn't make much logical sense anyway as Zant never made any reference to any disatisfaction with Ganon, and it *definitely* wasn't Zant killing Ganon, which is just bloody nonsense.

It sure looked like it. Even if it was only a vision, the sight apparently killed Ganon.

[Mgoblue201]

Ganon was dying. He knew he was dying. The Triforce mark disappeared. He wouldn've been dead without Zant. Therefore Zant killing him would have been absolutely useless. And Zant did nothing to do it. You don't tilt your head and suddenly your neck is snapped. Zant did absolutely nothing to "finish himself off". On the other hand, Ganon was dying, so it's much more probable that the Zant vision was a result of Ganon's death rather than the other way around.

Besides, if Zant turned against Ganon, it would have been poor character development. You don't have a character do a 180 without any explanation.