91 replies to this topic

[Raien]

You guys do realise that 'malice' isn't a tangeable object, right? It's a word. You can't 'bottle' malice into a mirror or whatever. Have you NO concept of the term 'metaphor'?

Malice is indeed a metaphor, to describe an emotion. Yet in The Legend of Zelda, such emotions can possess physical powers. By this, I am referring to the concept of "evil giving birth to evil".

For example, in the presence of malice (whether it be the Twilight Mirror or Zant), Ganondorf, the King of Darkness, is empowered.
In TP & Oracles, Zelda represents the people's hope and when she disappeared, the people became distressed (the people fell into despair, according to Oracles).
In Oracles, Destruction, Sorrow & Despair are keys needed to revive Ganon.

In short, the argument cannot be disregarded. Ganondorf tells us he was empowered and we see an empowerment. Ganondorf tells us that the Twili's ancestors' malice empowered him, Auru tells us that the Twilight Mirror possessed their malice, Ganondorf was in the presence of the Twilight Mirror during the scene of his empowerment.

I don't see why we should make up that Ganondorf had been empowered twice when we only see connections to one empowerment.

[BourgeoisJerry]

Malice is indeed a metaphor, to describe an emotion. Yet in The Legend of Zelda, such emotions can possess physical powers. By this, I am referring to the concept of "evil giving birth to evil".

Not arguing against emotions having physical powers, but I think in this case malice is a metaphor for the undead. I mean, seriously, talking about a place that "still holds ... the malice of the doomed inmates" sure sounds like the speaker is referring to a haunted place to me, especially after I've been to said place and seen the ghosts and skeletons that are all over the place.

For example, in the presence of malice (whether it be the Twilight Mirror or Zant), Ganondorf, the King of Darkness, is empowered.
In TP & Oracles, Zelda represents the people's hope and when she disappeared, the people became distressed (the people fell into despair, according to Oracles).
In Oracles, Destruction, Sorrow & Despair are keys needed to revive Ganon.

Assuming the malice of the Twili's ancestors is contained in the mirror, would you say "their hatred bled across the void and awakened [Ganondorf]," and if so could you please explain exactly how that works? After Ganondorf was sent through the Twilight mirror that quote can make sense, but it's a very strange quote to describe him being empowered after he got stabbed.

In short, the argument cannot be disregarded.

A lot of the facts you go on to mention aren't actually facts.

Ganondorf tells us he was empowered and we see an empowerment.

The empowerment Ganondorf tells us of doesn't match up with the moment the Triforce of Power appeared/activated/whatever. If you're referring to a different quote than the following one please post it.

Your people have long amused me, Midna. To defy the gods with such petty magic,
only to be cast aside... How very pathetic.
Pathetic as they were, though, they served me well. Their anguish was my
nourishment.
Their hatred bled across the void and awakened me. I drew deep in it and grew
strong again.
Your people had some skill, to be sure...but they lacked true power.
The kind of absolute power that those chosen by the gods wield.
He who wields such power would make a suitable king for this world, don't you
think?

As I said before, if you seriously think that quote is referring to the execution scene, could you please explain what that void he mentioned was? Also, what's up with Ganondorf being awakened?

Ganondorf tells us that the Twili's ancestors' malice empowered him.

The quote in this post doesn't specify Midna's ancestors. He may have been referring to them, or he may have simply been referring to Midna's people past and present.

Auru tells us that the Twilight Mirror possessed their malice.

No. No Auru doesn't. The desert contains the malice of the doomed inmates, as well as the mirror. Auru makes no connection between the malice and the mirror, and doesn't specify that the doomed inmates were the ancestors of the Twili. And if you don't believe the undeads all over the place have anything to do with the malice of the doomed inmates, could you please explain where exactly they came from? I highly doubt they were the guards.

Ganondorf was in the presence of the Twilight Mirror during the scene of his empowerment.

He was also in the desert, more specifically the part of the desert that is now filled with undead. If he was truly empowered by "malice," the mirror wasn't the source. However, Ganondorf's quote that says he grew strong again because of Midna's people doesn't make sense in the context of the mirror scene, so we don't even have a reason to believe he was empowered by malice at that moment.

I don't see why we should make up that Ganondorf had been empowered twice when we only see connections to one empowerment.

As I have said, the empowerment he mentioned in that one quote doesn't make sense in the context of the execution scene. Also, we don't know for sure Ganondorf was empowered in the execution scene, we just know that the Triforce mark appeared and he killed a Sage. Even if he was empowered in the execution scene we aren't given any indication that it has anything to do with him being in the presence of the mirror. You just read one quote and took it to mean the mirror contained the malice of the Twili (which the quote simply didn't say) and decided Ganondorf must have been empowered by it.

Edited by BourgeoisJerry, 27 January 2007 - 12:31 AM.

[BourgeoisJerry]

Did that last post I tried to make get posted? The forum went down when I tried to post and it shows on this computer but "last action" still shows "Last post by: jhurvid."

[Fyxe]

There is precedence. In ALttP manual it stated how Ganon's evil mood or malice flew to Hyrule. That is exactly the same as what Rauru said about ganondorf's evil "radiating from the temples of Hyrule".

Again, metaphor. His malice is personified in monsters and beasts and foul winds that make plants rot and storms form. It's still not a tangeable object in itself. Besides, there's no talk of malice as being able to revive him.

Jerry, your post worked, don't worry, and a good one it is.

On the subject of the Oracle games, the difference was that in those games it was repeatedly and clearly stated that Despair, Destruction and Sorrow were needed for Kotake and Koume's spell. It was a spell, and the three things were still just words for actions that were enacted. They clearly referred to and often capitalised as actual requirements for Ganon's revival. If they had intended malice to mean anything other than a description and a metaphor in TP they would have made it clear that this was the case, instead of using it like a normal word.

[Showsni]

Bathed in that light, all people were pure and gentle…

Their hatred bled across the void and awakened me. I drew deep in it and grew
strong again.

What if Midna's mistaken, and the Twilight actually had such a calming effect because of Ganondorf "leeching" away their hatred? Certainly the Twili would have been angry when they first entered the TR, and from Ganondorf's words they were still hateful and anguished when he entered the TR. But then he drew deep on their hatred, and it strengthened him - what if removing their hatred is also what caused them to become calmer?

[Duke Serkol]

Very nice theory!

Personally though, I think Midna is biased, like the rest of the Twili really. My take on it is that they saw (and see) their banishment as a punishment, but that the Goddesses put them in Twilight precisely so they would benefit of its soothing effect.
As a result they became pure and gentle toward one another, but still clinging to their resentment for the people of the world they were kicked out of.

That's how I see it, at least.

[Fyxe]

ARGH.

Minda says Ganondorf used Zant.

Why can't people just settle for the ACTUAL BLATANT EXPOSITION.

And Serkol, Showsni, why? Why won't you let them have their redemption without saying they had no choice? The underlying tale of the Twili is them dealing with their punishment and redeeming themselves, represented by Midna learning the good of the Light World and represented by Zant's failure to rule. The whole ending, where Midna cracks and destroys the mirror, makes no sense if you claim that the Twili only got their redemption because they were calmed by some divine power/fluke.

Besides, if he was leeching from their hatred, then everything involving Zant makes no sense.

I don't understand why people have a desire to bend the underlying morals of a story by coming up with some hidden twist that's hidden so well that people have to guess wildly.

Edited by Fyxe, 27 January 2007 - 06:28 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Personally though, I think Midna is biased, like the rest of the Twili really. My take on it is that they saw (and see) their banishment as a punishment, but that the Goddesses put them in Twilight precisely so they would benefit of its soothing effect.
As a result they became pure and gentle toward one another, but still clinging to their resentment for the people of the world they were kicked out of.

Yes, that is how I understood it as well. The goddesses generally seem more intent on restoring order to the world than punishing potential evildoers. Banishing the Twili did not only eliminate the threat they posed to Hyrule, but also gave them a 'calming' world of their own where they could live in peace.

And Serkol, Showsni, why? Why won't you let them have their redemption without saying they had no choice? The underlying tale of the Twili is them dealing with their punishment and redeeming themselves, represented by Midna learning the good of the Light World and represented by Zant's failure to rule. The whole ending, where Midna cracks and destroys the mirror, makes no sense if you claim that the Twili only got their redemption because they were calmed by some divine power/fluke.

Fyxe, the thing is that the goddesses didn't punish the Twili when they sent them to the Twilight Realm. If they wanted to, they could just as easily have destroyed them all. But they didn't. Instead they removed them from cause of their greed - the Triforce - and gave them a second chance. This is supposed to say something about the goddesses.

This doesn’t take away anything from how the Twili redeemed themselves, either. Because, as we are told, the Twili saw nothing good come of the goddesses decision, and they had also come to blame the light world just as much as they blamed the goddesses. It is the folly of these things that Minda comes to realize during the course of the game, and that is why she acted as she did in the end.

[Fyxe]

I understand that Hero of Legend, but my problem is the concept that some innate power of their world, or some outside force (such as Ganondorf) is the reason for them finding peace and redemption, when the story is about how the solitude and unique beauty of the Twilight Realm that made them accept their punishment and no longer feel the hatred and lust of their ancestors (with the exception of Zant, of course).

[Duke Serkol]

the solitude and unique beauty of the Twilight Realm that made them accept their punishment and no longer feel the hatred and lust of their ancestors (with the exception of Zant, of course).

But that's exactly what I meant... minus the accepting their punishment part since I think they are still resentful of it and only in the end Midna realizes it was for the best.

[Fyxe]

I think it's fairly clear that the majority of the Twili are largely at peace with their punishment, and only Zant remains truely resentful. The dialogue pretty much states both of these things. I don't feel the need to argue about those facts, I recently finished the game, I remember it very well.

[D~N]

Fyxe is dead on, I think.

The only thing I might add is that Ganondorf doesn't need to have just one thing that empowers him. I mean, the game is unclear; just accept it. There's doesn't need to be one definate thing that makes Ganon strong. All that really matters is that he gets his Triforce power in a Desert near a Mirror, and that he was sealed in said mirror. Then he finds Zant having a hissy-fit and uses him to escape. This whole malice thing doesn't mean anything; it's just good story-telling. He used *someone's* anger to his own advantage. Doesn't really matter who it was, we have all the information we need. *Someone* or *some people* got angry and Ganon uses this hatred to empower himself.

And since when do the Twili find peace and redemption??? They're mad as heck until Midna, who represents the Twili as a whole (much like Zelda represents Hyrule), undergoes a character change. Then the Twili are t3h happy. There's no fancy leaching of malice or whatnot. Ganondorf gets his power from *someone* or *some people* being angry.

Geeze, it's not a science, it's a discusion on how a fictional character got magic powers. There's no pointing and saying "There!!!1 His magic came from that jar!!!" It's the fact that he has magic that matters. I really don't quite understand how people could argue over something like this O_o quite perplexing...

edit; whoops, sounded rant-ish. didn't mean to be a fun-crusher. And what does this have to do with a snapping neck?
edit 2; also, when I say they're "mad as heck", I mean it to a much lesser extent. They're obviously gunna be mad, but only Zant is the really pissed one. The rest of the Twili are mad at the gods, the light world, or other non-specific things. But they're not angry as "a people", per say...

Edited by D~N, 27 January 2007 - 09:29 PM.

[Fyxe]

All that really matters is that he gets his Triforce power in a Desert near a Mirror, and that he was sealed in said mirror.

Why do people think that he got the Triforce after being 'killed'? No, I'm fairly sure the implication was that he had the Triforce all the time, and the Sages (and possibly Ganondorf himself) didn't know. You don't just pick it up for no reason. He has it in the same way Ganon in TWW has it.

And since when do the Twili find peace and redemption??? They're mad as heck until Midna, who represents the Twili as a whole (much like Zelda represents Hyrule), undergoes a character change.

Excuse me, NO. We do not see any Twili other than Midna and Zant until Link visits the Twilight Realm. And before we go there, Midna speaks of their peaceful nature. And when you're there, they're one of the most docile races in the game. Obviously as a whole they share some resentment, some more than others, but generally they've dealt with it all. Zant complains about this constantly.

edit 2; also, when I say they're "mad as heck", I mean it to a much lesser extent. They're obviously gunna be mad, but only Zant is the really pissed one. The rest of the Twili are mad at the gods, the light world, or other non-specific things. But they're not angry as "a people", per say...

Oh right. Well, fair enough, that's kind of what I'm saying.

[D~N]

*phew* yeah that second edit saved my butt.
Yes, what I ment is what you ment; they are very peaceful toward each other. But they've still gotta be mad at something, namely the gods or (people of) the light world. But then at the end of the story, they realize that they shouldn't be mad at even that. Thus Midna destroys the mirror. Otherwise, if they still had hatred toward their punishment, they would have escaped while the portal was wide open between temple 8 and temple 9. Midna shows this a bunch of times in her character development. So yeah, they're not that mad any more, I guess. At the beginning of that post I thought they were, but you made me realize they weren't. The more I think about it, the less mad they seem >_> Now I don't think they're mad at all! >_< Fyxe, your confusing my brain against itself!

Which now leads me to the conclusion that Ganondorf couldn't have gotten his power from the Twili; only Zant, like Midna clearly says. Even his Triforce-activation-power, which was from either the desert or the mirror, is sounding more and more like the desert, but I don't care.

Why do people think that he got the Triforce after being 'killed'? No, I'm fairly sure the implication was that he had the Triforce all the time, and the Sages (and possibly Ganondorf himself) didn't know. You don't just pick it up for no reason. He has it in the same way Ganon in TWW has it.

When I say get, I don't mean aquire. I mean "activate". I don't know how he got the Triforce or when, but that doesn't matter to me, so I might use the term "get", "aquire", or "activate" very losely. Because all we really know is that, at one point, no matter how long he's had it, it turns on. More specifically, it turns on when he gets stabbed, in a mirror chamber, in a desert. Something in that sentence made it happen, but it doesn't matter, it wont affect any timelines.

[Duke Serkol]

I don't feel the need to argue about those

Well then I shan't be the one to bother you about it

[Fyxe]

Because all we really know is that, at one point, no matter how long he's had it, it turns on. More specifically, it turns on when he gets stabbed, in a mirror chamber, in a desert. Something in that sentence made it happen, but it doesn't matter, it wont affect any timelines.

There's a few ways to look at that scene.

1 - Ganondorf knows he has the Triforce, and knows he won't die, so he takes the hit then uses the Triforce to surprise the Sages and attempt to break free and use the sword as a weapon. This is fairly unlikely, because that sword left him with a wound that never went away, so I doubt he'd want to sit there and take it.

2 - Ganondorf knows he has the Triforce, but it doesn't grant him it's power until after he has been pierced by the blade. This is similar to how he did not/was not able to use the full power of his Triforce piece until he 'died' once in OoT and the tower collapsed around him. I find this very likely, as it would follow the theme of homaging OoT and other games in the series. Also, the music that plays when Ganondorf breaks free is a remix of the music that plays when Ganon's Tower is collapsing in OoT. Basically, I think Ganondorf usually needs to be in real peril/in a true rage to use the full might of the Triforce of Power.

3 - Ganondorf has no idea he has the Triforce of Power until this point. I find this unlikely. He laughs knowingly when it 'activates' (activates is the wrong word really, it's active all the time, it's just that some moments it grants the weilder more strength than others), and shows no surprise at his own ability to break free.

Edited by Fyxe, 28 January 2007 - 09:40 AM.

[Showsni]

ARGH.

Minda says Ganondorf used Zant.

Why can't people just settle for the ACTUAL BLATANT EXPOSITION.

And Serkol, Showsni, why? Why won't you let them have their redemption without saying they had no choice? The underlying tale of the Twili is them dealing with their punishment and redeeming themselves, represented by Midna learning the good of the Light World and represented by Zant's failure to rule. The whole ending, where Midna cracks and destroys the mirror, makes no sense if you claim that the Twili only got their redemption because they were calmed by some divine power/fluke.

Besides, if he was leeching from their hatred, then everything involving Zant makes no sense.

I don't understand why people have a desire to bend the underlying morals of a story by coming up with some hidden twist that's hidden so well that people have to guess wildly.

Keh?

Of course Ganondorf used Zant. Is that even an issue? And Ganondorf says plainly that he was empowered by the Twili, using plural words. But that was a long time ago. These present Twili are all peaceful and serene - they don't have anguish that's feeding Ganondorf.

I think it's fairly clear that the majority of the Twili are largely at peace with their punishment, and only Zant remains truely resentful. The dialogue pretty much states both of these things. I don't feel the need to argue about those facts, I recently finished the game, I remember it very well.

No one's arguing against that, are they?

I only mentioned the Twilight calming effect possibly coming from Ganon as a theory. You don't like the idea of it being an outside force at all; but Midna does say "Bathed in that light, all people were pure and gentle?" which at least implies that the realm itself had something to do with it, rather than their repentance being purely from inside.

[Kairu Hakubi]

Yeah I don't think that ending was supposed to mean squat. They didn't SHOW any of it... G-dorf just STOOD there. people don't stand like that when they're dead...
I dunno man, I just dunno. the only time Ganon has ever really DIED he was turned to ash. This time he freezes and his triforce mark fades away (but that's not the same as disappearing is it? It just means he's not using it anymore. It was invisible on his hand until he caused it to pop up, that's how marks work!) and... it's just.. completely wrong for any storyline if he actually dies here.. and worse if his triforce leaves..... .. where would it go? A triforce-holder has never explicitly DIED before, though people think that's what caused the ToC to turn into a really tedious (if kinda cool) exploring-game at the end of TWW..

[Raien]

Sorry for the delay in replying.

The quote in this post doesn't specify Midna's ancestors. He may have been referring to them, or he may have simply been referring to Midna's people past and present.

He was referring to the people who "defied the gods with petty magic". This statement refers to the Twili's ancestors; not the Twili themselves.

No. No Auru doesn't. The desert contains the malice of the doomed inmates, as well as the mirror. Auru makes no connection between the malice and the mirror, and doesn't specify that the doomed inmates were the ancestors of the Twili. And if you don't believe the undeads all over the place have anything to do with the malice of the doomed inmates, could you please explain where exactly they came from? I highly doubt they were the guards.

First of all, Auru's quote can be read in two different ways (the extra text is in italics):

-This desert at world's end... It still holds the cursed mirror and the malice of the doomed inmates inside of it...
-This desert at world's end... It still holds the cursed mirror and the malice of the doomed inmates as well...

Of course, if you talk to Auru inside Telma's Bar (after beating the Arbiter's Grounds), he then talks about the "accursed mirror" again

Secondly, the "undeads" you are referring to are officially called "Redeads", which according to OoT, are not actual corpses but manifestations of Ganondorf's magic. As for the poes, they are spirits normally aligned with evil (and therefore Ganondorf). The Poe sisters in OoT, for example, were not residents of the Forest Temple but dark servants of Ganondorf. Then if you look at the skulls in the Arbiter's Grounds, none of them are actually human.

Not arguing against emotions having physical powers, but I think in this case malice is a metaphor for the undead. I mean, seriously, talking about a place that "still holds ... the malice of the doomed inmates" sure sounds like the speaker is referring to a haunted place to me, especially after I've been to said place and seen the ghosts and skeletons that are all over the place.

Malice means Hatred. It's not a direct reference for the undead. And the term "still holds" is simply referring to the fact that the Twilight Mirror "still holds" the malice of the Twili's ancestors. Hence, it's evil power manifests into monsters and transforms Yeta.

As I have said, the empowerment he mentioned in that one quote doesn't make sense in the context of the execution scene. Also, we don't know for sure Ganondorf was empowered in the execution scene, we just know that the Triforce mark appeared and he killed a Sage. Even if he was empowered in the execution scene we aren't given any indication that it has anything to do with him being in the presence of the mirror. You just read one quote and took it to mean the mirror contained the malice of the Twili (which the quote simply didn't say) and decided Ganondorf must have been empowered by it.

Ganondorf was captured by the Sages, chained to a rock and then stabbed with a blade of light, yet was unable to resist. Then the Triforce of Power resonated, and Ganondorf was able to break his chains, pull out the sword and kill one of the Sages. To get from a weakened state where the Sages could capture him to a powerful state where he could kill the Sages is called an "empowerment".

Likewise, you read one quote about Zant possessing malice and took it to mean that malice was that which empowered Ganondorf, when that entire scene did not show any such empowerment at all. After all, Ganondorf approached Zant and offered him his power with words that mimicked the Triforce in ALTTP's manual. The Triforce represented absolute power, just as Ganondorf did to Zant.

He was also in the desert, more specifically the part of the desert that is now filled with undead. If he was truly empowered by "malice," the mirror wasn't the source. However, Ganondorf's quote that says he grew strong again because of Midna's people doesn't make sense in the context of the mirror scene, so we don't even have a reason to believe he was empowered by malice at that moment.

Ganondorf was in the presence of the Twilight Mirror when he changed from a weakened state to an empowered state. We know at least that he was "empowered" at that moment. Then he tells us not that Midna's current people empowered him, but that the tribe who "defied the gods with petty magic" (Midna's ancestors) empowered him. We also know that the Twilight Mirror possessed evil power, which is aligned with malice because Ganondorf's evil power WAS malice!

His abiding lust for power turned to purest malice? Perhaps that evil power has been passed down to Zant?

Therefore, everything connects around that one scene.

Assuming the malice of the Twili's ancestors is contained in the mirror, would you say "their hatred bled across the void and awakened [Ganondorf]," and if so could you please explain exactly how that works? After Ganondorf was sent through the Twilight mirror that quote can make sense, but it's a very strange quote to describe him being empowered after he got stabbed.

It's very simple. Ganondorf was in a weakened state when he was taken to the Arbiter's Grounds, hence the Sages captured him beforehand and stabbed him with a blade of light. The malice that the Twilight Mirror possessed empowered Ganondorf, causing the Triforce of Power to resonate and Ganondorf to survive his attempted execution. As for exactly what the void is, that is up for interpretation. Perhaps it represents a gap between the world of Hyrule and the afterlife, where the Twili's ancestors now live.

Edited by jhurvid, 30 January 2007 - 01:08 PM.

[D~N]

I dunno man, I just dunno. the only time Ganon has ever really DIED he was turned to ash. This time he freezes and his triforce mark fades away (but that's not the same as disappearing is it? It just means he's not using it anymore. It was invisible on his hand until he caused it to pop up, that's how marks work!) and... it's just.. completely wrong for any storyline if he actually dies here.. and worse if his triforce leaves..... .. where would it go? A triforce-holder has never explicitly DIED before, though people think that's what caused the ToC to turn into a really tedious (if kinda cool) exploring-game at the end of TWW..

His death works quite well in my theory. He dies in TP, and is an "ancient demon reborn" in FS. I think it works pretty darn well...That is, assuming that everything else in my theory is correct.

...which it's probably not.

[BourgeoisJerry]

I would like to apologize in advance for sounding overly arrogant and such in this post. My attacks to your theory are going to sound far more aggressive than they really are due to the nature of textual communication. I know bringing up dictionary definitions is going to make things even worse, but you seem to be taking liberties with the English language to help your theory, and I'm trying to tell you that the English language doesn't work like that. Also, please note that I am in no place attacking you personally, though at some points it may seem that way depending on how you read this. Anyway...

He was referring to the people who "defied the gods with petty magic". This statement refers to the Twili's ancestors; not the Twili themselves.

Your people have long amused me, Midna. To defy the gods with such petty magic,
only to be cast aside... How very pathetic.
Pathetic as they were, though, they served me well. Their anguish was my
nourishment.
Their hatred bled across the void and awakened me. I drew deep in it and grew
strong again.
Your people had some skill, to be sure...but they lacked true power.
The kind of absolute power that those chosen by the gods wield.
He who wields such power would make a suitable king for this world, don't you
think?

I didn't say that particular line wasn't referring to the ancestors, what I said was that his statement in its entirety was referring to the Twili in general, past and present. He called them pathetic with the comment: "To defy the gods with such petty magic, only to be cast aside... How very pathetic." It's also worth noting that he calls them Midna's people.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/your

By my understanding of the English language, I would take Ganon's referring to them as Midna's people to mean that Midna belongs to the group of people he is referring to, or Midna rules the group of people he is referring to. As such, I take his statement to be referring to Midna's people in general, not a singling out the ones his comment about "defying the gods with such petty magic" applies to. The ancestors belong to the group he's referring to, but the entire statement may not in reference to the ancestors.

First of all, Auru's quote can be read in two different ways (the extra text is in italics):

-This desert at world's end... It still holds the cursed mirror and the malice of the doomed inmates inside of it...
-This desert at world's end... It still holds the cursed mirror and the malice of the doomed inmates as well...

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/and

I see no definition of the word "and" that makes the addition of "inside of it" unnecessary, but the definition of the word does make the addition of "as well" unnecessary, as that's pretty much what the word "and" means. Please explain what word in Auru's sentence implies that the mirror contains the malice, because the only connection I see between the two in that sentence is the word "and" which only implies to me that the statement "This desert at world's end... It still holds" applies to both "the cursed mirror" and "the malice of the doomed inmates." If there's some definition of the word "and" that I'm missing, could you please point it out to me?

Of course, if you talk to Auru inside Telma's Bar (after beating the Arbiter's Grounds), he then talks about the "accursed mirror" again

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/accursed

You're using the English language in reverse. the word "accursed" could be used to describe something that contained malice, but that does not mean something described as "accursed" must contain malice.

Secondly, the "undeads" you are referring to are officially called "Redeads", which according to OoT, are not actual corpses but manifestations of Ganondorf's magic. As for the poes, they are spirits normally aligned with evil (and therefore Ganondorf). The Poe sisters in OoT, for example, were not residents of the Forest Temple but dark servants of Ganondorf. Then if you look at the skulls in the Arbiter's Grounds, none of them are actually human.
Malice means Hatred. It's not a direct reference for the undead. And the term "still holds" is simply referring to the fact that the Twilight Mirror "still holds" the malice of the Twili's ancestors. Hence, it's evil power manifests into monsters and transforms Yeta.

Actually, when I talk about a haunted prison I'm mostly referring to the ghosts, with the other undeads kinda clumped in with them. Now, as for the poes themselves, we're not talking about "The Poe Sisters" here, we're talking about "Earthbound Prisoners." Yup, they're called "Earthbound Prisoners." As for the Re-Deads, Stalfos, Bubbles, Cursed Sword, and Skeleton Army: I'd like to point out that the Armos in TMC were "Built by the Minish for the Wind Tribe long ago," yet have appeared in several Zelda games that make absolutely no mention of the Minish or the Wind Tribe. The Armos of TMC may have been built by the Minish, but the ones from other games seem to have different origins. It's quite possible that these Re-Deads (as well as the rest of the undeads) truly come from dead people. Of course, even without the zombies and skeletons and such, you still have the "Earthbound Prisoners" to explain.

Ganondorf was captured by the Sages, chained to a rock and then stabbed with a blade of light, yet was unable to resist. Then the Triforce of Power resonated, and Ganondorf was able to break his chains, pull out the sword and kill one of the Sages. To get from a weakened state where the Sages could capture him to a powerful state where he could kill the Sages is called an "empowerment".

My main point was that Ganondorf's quote didn't work in the context of that scene, so I'll just let this slide. My post is going to be really long anyway.

Likewise, you read one quote about Zant possessing malice and took it to mean that malice was that which empowered Ganondorf, when that entire scene did not show any such empowerment at all. After all, Ganondorf approached Zant and offered him his power with words that mimicked the Triforce in ALTTP's manual. The Triforce represented absolute power, just as Ganondorf did to Zant.

No, no I didn't. I never said it was Zant's malice that empowered Ganondorf, I simply said the malice didn't come from the mirror.

Ganondorf was in the presence of the Twilight Mirror when he changed from a weakened state to an empowered state. We know at least that he was "empowered" at that moment. Then he tells us not that Midna's current people empowered him, but that the tribe who "defied the gods with petty magic" (Midna's ancestors) empowered him. We also know that the Twilight Mirror possessed evil power, which is aligned with malice because Ganondorf's evil power WAS malice! Therefore, everything connects around that one scene.

Ganondorf tells us not that Midna's current people empowered him, but he also tells us not that Midna's past people empowered him. He tells us that Midna's ... people empowered him. The statement was not exclusive to past or present, though certain parts of the statement were.

It's very simple. Ganondorf was in a weakened state when he was taken to the Arbiter's Grounds, hence the Sages captured him beforehand and stabbed him with a blade of light. The malice that the Twilight Mirror possessed empowered Ganondorf, causing the Triforce of Power to resonate and Ganondorf to survive his attempted execution. As for exactly what the void is, that is up for interpretation. Perhaps it represents a gap between the world of Hyrule and the afterlife, where the Twili's ancestors now live.

Yay for creative use of the English language!!! I'm not buying it. Almost every piece of evidence you have to support your theory is based on a leap you made, a prime example being the leap you made from "It still holds the cursed mirror and the malice of the doomed inmates" to "It still holds the cursed mirror and the malice of the doomed inmates inside of it." The theory is not based on implication or inferrence.

Edited by BourgeoisJerry, 31 January 2007 - 04:26 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

His death works quite well in my theory. He dies in TP, and is an "ancient demon reborn" in FS.

FSA, actually. And I agree

Besides it is pretty obvious he's dead. What kind of ending would that be if he was still alive and standing up comatose in the field??

[Raien]

I didn't say that particular line wasn't referring to the ancestors, what I said was that his statement in its entirety was referring to the Twili in general, past and present. He called them pathetic with the comment: "To defy the gods with such petty magic, only to be cast aside... How very pathetic." It's also worth noting that he calls them Midna's people.

Alright, I will admit that within the context of the quote, there is a possibility that Ganondorf could be referring to Midna's current people. However, this does contradict what both Midna and Zant tell us, that the Twili had lost their hatred and come to live in harmony in the Twilight Realm.

I see no definition of the word "and" that makes the addition of "inside of it" unnecessary, but the definition of the word does make the addition of "as well" unnecessary, as that's pretty much what the word "and" means. Please explain what word in Auru's sentence implies that the mirror contains the malice, because the only connection I see between the two in that sentence is the word "and" which only implies to me that the statement "This desert at world's end... It still holds" applies to both "the cursed mirror" and "the malice of the doomed inmates." If there's some definition of the word "and" that I'm missing, could you please point it out to me?

Let me explain what I mean better. We know that the desert holds both the mirror and the malice, but there is no direct evidence that they are held separately. For all the text tells us, the malice being in the desert comes as a consequence of the mirror being in the desert. As examples of this:

"My friend brought home the magazine and the free gift."
"George Bush won the people's hearts and the votes."

So, the desert held the Twilight Mirror and the malice of the Twilis as a consequence of holding the Twilight Mirror. Do you see what I mean now?

You're using the English language in reverse. the word "accursed" could be used to describe something that contained malice, but that does not mean something described as "accursed" must contain malice.

Of course, we can ask ourselves the question: "If the gods made the Twilight Mirror specifically for the Twili, and the Sages then guarded that mirror ever since, then how did it actually come to possess evil power?" We know that malice has been defined as evil power within the game; the Sages make that connection. In my opinion, it ties up that detail.

Actually, when I talk about a haunted prison I'm mostly referring to the ghosts, with the other undeads kinda clumped in with them. Now, as for the poes themselves, we're not talking about "The Poe Sisters" here, we're talking about "Earthbound Prisoners." Yup, they're called "Earthbound Prisoners." As for the Re-Deads, Stalfos, Bubbles, Cursed Sword, and Skeleton Army: I'd like to point out that the Armos in TMC were "Built by the Minish for the Wind Tribe long ago," yet have appeared in several Zelda games that make absolutely no mention of the Minish or the Wind Tribe. The Armos of TMC may have been built by the Minish, but the ones from other games seem to have different origins. It's quite possible that these Re-Deads (as well as the rest of the undeads) truly come from dead people. Of course, even without the zombies and skeletons and such, you still have the "Earthbound Prisoners" to explain.

Where are they called Earthbound Prisoners? I accept your argument is valid, but I want to know where you got the term from.

Yay for creative use of the English language!!! I'm not buying it. Almost every piece of evidence you have to support your theory is based on a leap you made, a prime example being the leap you made from "It still holds the cursed mirror and the malice of the doomed inmates" to "It still holds the cursed mirror and the malice of the doomed inmates inside of it." The theory is not based on implication or inferrence.

One question, do you believe that Ganondorf was empowered by Zant after he was sent to the Twilight Realm? If the answer is no, then our theories are very much alike and I would be happy to consider the desert in general as an alternative explanation to the mirror. I'm just trying to show that there was one empowerment, not two.

Edited by jhurvid, 31 January 2007 - 01:42 PM.

[BourgeoisJerry]

Alright, I will admit that within the context of the quote, there is a possibility that Ganondorf could be referring to Midna's current people. However, this does contradict what both Midna and Zant tell us, that the Twili had lost their hatred and come to live in harmony in the Twilight Realm.

We don't know how long Ganondorf has been imprisoned. I'm not saying it was the current people, but it also wasn't the ancient ones that were first sealed. There may have still been others like Zant, or it's possible Ganondorf had been in the Twilight Realm for generations, soaking in all the hatred until the moment finally arrived for him to reveal himself to Zant and take his "rightful" place as ruler of... everything.

Let me explain what I mean better. We know that the desert holds both the mirror and the malice, but there is no direct evidence that they are held separately. For all the text tells us, the malice being in the desert comes as a consequence of the mirror being in the desert. As examples of this:

"My friend brought home the magazine and the free gift."
"George Bush won the people's hearts and the votes."

So, the desert held the Twilight Mirror and the malice of the Twilis as a consequence of holding the Twilight Mirror. Do you see what I mean now?

We only see that the free gift comes as a consequence of the magazine because of the (assumed) context of the statement. You can only say the malice is contained in the mirror if you have contextual support, but since the malice mentioned in that sentence is already accounted for by the undead enemies, there is no support for the mirror containing malice.

Of course, we can ask ourselves the question: "If the gods made the Twilight Mirror specifically for the Twili, and the Sages then guarded that mirror ever since, then how did it actually come to possess evil power?" We know that malice has been defined as evil power within the game; the Sages make that connection. In my opinion, it ties up that detail.

By some divine prank, he, too, had been blessed with the chosen power of the
gods.
His abiding hatred and lust for power turned to purest malice...
Perhaps that evil power has been passed on to Zant...

The quote you used to define malice as evil power was taken out of context. If you look at the context (as in the part they said just before the part you quoted) you see that the Sages didn't really define malice as evil power.

Where are they called Earthbound Prisoners? I accept your argument is valid, but I want to know where you got the term from.
One question, do you believe that Ganondorf was empowered by Zant after he was sent to the Twilight Realm? If the answer is no, then our theories are very much alike and I would be happy to consider the desert in general as an alternative explanation to the mirror. I'm just trying to show that there was one empowerment, not two.

Unfortunately we don't have a helpful fairy or miniature maker to tell us the names of the enemies, so I have to rely on the name given to the enemies by somebody I assume has the official player's guide. Here's my source.

As for Zant empowering Ganondorf, I wouldn't say he was solely responsible, but it is possible that Zant was the straw the broke the camel's back and finally awakened Ganondorf. It's also possible that Ganondorf had simply been waiting for the right opportunity to commence his plan, and when he saw Zant he decided it was time. I don't know when exactly Ganondorf was awakened, but I believe it was while he was in the Twilight Realm. The malice of the Twili bleeding across the void and awakening him just doesn't sound right to be describing what happened in the Mirror Chamber, but it does make sense to describe something that happened once he was already in the Twilight Realm.

[Fyxe]

I can safely say that those names are *not* from the official guide, and most of them are made up. It doesn't even call Bulblins by their correct name.

However, I have the official guide (recently got it), and *some* of the monsters are named. ReDead Knights, for instance, Helmasaurs and Helmasaurus, King Bulblin... But not many, it appears.

http://www.gamefaqs....ame/928519.html

If you look at the guide called 'Enemy Guide (GC)', those names look accurate. I don't know where they are from, however.

[BourgeoisJerry]

I can safely say that those names are *not* from the official guide, and most of them are made up. It doesn't even call Bulblins by their correct name.

However, I have the official guide (recently got it), and *some* of the monsters are named. ReDead Knights, for instance, Helmasaurs and Helmasaurus, King Bulblin... But not many, it appears.

http://www.gamefaqs....ame/928519.html

If you look at the guide called 'Enemy Guide (GC)', those names look accurate. I don't know where they are from, however.

Augh, you mean to tell me somebody decided to make a guide about the monsters in the game but didn't bother to find out what their real names were? Well, there goes that proof, but at least I still have a ton of undeads in a place said to contain the malice of the doomed inmates. Still, I'm not too happy about looking stupid because I took that information as accurate.

[Raien]

Those are good points, BourgeoisJerry, but I've decided it will be easier to rewrite my thesis to counter all the wonderful arguments that you and others here have tackled me with.

One point though. If Ganondorf was referring to the current Twili, as well as their ancestors, then why did he use past tense to describe how pathetic they "were"?

Edited by jhurvid, 31 January 2007 - 06:23 PM.

[BourgeoisJerry]

Those are good points, BourgeoisJerry, but I've decided it will be easier to rewrite my thesis to counter all the wonderful arguments that you and others here have tackled me with.

One point though. If Ganondorf was referring to the current Twili, as well as their ancestors, then why did he use past tense to describe how pathetic they "were"?

Pathetic as they were, though, they served me well.

Ganondorf seemed to be done with the Twili when he said that, thus he referred to them serving him well (as pathetic as they were) in the past tense.

[Raien]

Ganondorf seemed to be done with the Twili when he said that, thus he referred to them serving him well (as pathetic as they were) in the past tense.

He says "pathetic as they were", not "pathetic as they are". Does this not suggest that the people are not currently in existence?

[Fyxe]

You are the master of misreading, jhurvid. It's past tense. It does not mean they no longer exist. At all.

Edit: Apologies if that sounded rude, but it just feels like you're pulling at straws. Past tense doesn't mean anything more than past tense.

Edited by Fyxe, 31 January 2007 - 07:42 PM.