To go against my own argument and show that I'm open minded, here's something that has been spotted in the Arbiter's Ground:
That on the right looks like a Shadow Assassin to me. ...of course Shadow Assassins shouldn't have ever existed before Zant came along... but maybe Zant didn't quite invent them?
If you remember, the inscriptions on the Deku Tree in OoT showed Link and Navi fighting Ganon in the future. So it is not impossible that this also represents a prophecy of sorts.
Elements of the beast look like Shadow Assassins and other elements look like Ganon. For example, the hands have three prongs, pretty much identical to the blades Ganon wielded in OoT. Then there is that round spot around the torso area, which could be Ganon's bulbous tail. On the other hand, the head looks like a Shadow Assassin. The head is not big enough though in proportion to the body for it to be a Shadow Assassin. And is that a necklace I see around the beasts neck?
What interests me is the man standing next to the beast. The inscription on the sheild is certainly distorted and unidentifiable. Personally, it looks most like the Sheikah symbol (that represents fighting evil). Yet I notice that the man isn't depicted as fighting the beast. Could this imply that they are two forms for the same individual (a la Ganon) or that they are allied in some way?
PS: Where exactly can this image be found in the Arbiter's Grounds?
If you remember, the inscriptions on the Deku Tree in OoT showed Link and Navi fighting Ganon in the future. So it is not impossible that this also represents a prophecy of sorts.
What inscriptions? (You don't mean the dinosaur on Link's home tree, right?)
The inscription on the sheild is certainly distorted and unidentifiable. Personally, it looks most like the Sheikah symbol
Speaking of that... is it just me, or did the undead soldiers protecting the boss have that symbol on their shields?
Where exactly can this image be found in the Arbiter's Grounds?
Just about anywhere. Two good places to look are the rotating room to the side of where you first meet the four ghosts and that long Corridor with a army of StalChildren.
Edited by Duke Serkol, 26 January 2007 - 09:46 AM.
If you remember, the inscriptions on the Deku Tree in OoT showed Link and Navi fighting Ganon in the future. So it is not impossible that this also represents a prophecy of sorts.
Actually, that's on Link's house. So it's more likely that Link was having prophetic dreams, not the battle being prophesied.
I didn't know where to put this, but I just watched an entire video for direct quotes for you guys. It can be used for a bunch of arguements, so I'll put it in the most general thread (this one) for now.
Taken from the battle with Zant.
(Midna) Zant. Isn't this ironic? Here we are, all thanks to the dark magic curse you placed on Link.
(Zant) You speak of magic? Still your tounge for a moment, whelp, and I will tell you of both magic and the oppresion of ages.
The people of our tribe...a tribe that mastered the arts of magic...were locked away in this world, like insects in a cage.
In the shadows we regressed, so much that we soon knowing neither anger nor hatred...nor even the faintest bloom of disire.
And all of it was the fault of a useless, do-nothing royal family that had resigned itself to this miserable half-existence!
I had served and endured in that depraved houshold for far to long, my impudent princess.
And why, you ask? Because I beleived I would be the next one to rule my people! THAT is why!
But would they acknowledge me as their King? No! And as such, I was denied the magic powers befitting our ruller.
It was then, in the thrall of hatred and dispare, that I turned my eyes to the heavens...and found a god.
(Ganon's Burning Head-Spirit) I shall house my power in you... If there is anything you desire then I shall desire it, too.
(Zant) My god had only one wish...
To merge shadow and light...and make darkness!
*fight Zant*
(Zant) Y-You...TRAITORS!
(Midna) Traitors, ha! You want to know why none would call you king? It was your eyes, Zant! All saw it, a lust for power burning in your pupils...Did you think we'd forget our ancestors lost their king to such greed?
(Zant) Midna...Foolish Twilight Princess...The curse on you cannot be broken...
It was placed on you by the power of my god! The power you held as leader of the Twili will never return!
Already he has decended and been reborn in this world...
As long as my master, Ganon, survives, he will resurect me without cease!
*Zant does creepy oooooaaaaoaoaoaoao thing, Midna stabs him*
(Midna) I...I just used a fraction of the power that's in me now...
I did THAT using only a fraction of my ancestor's magic?!
Link! Now is the time! We must save Zelda!
The evil power Zant was weilding...I couldn't take it from him. But at least I still have the magic of my ancestors...
With it, I can return the cherished power Zelda bestowed upon me...
Now! Let's go! Princess Zelda is waiting!
*warps out*
(Midna) So, Ganondorf was just using Zant to help him return to the world of light...
I guess now we know the true nature of that barrier over Hyrule Castle...
He's in Hyrule Castle, Im sure of it...
Princess Zelda is in grave danger! We must return to the world of light and hurry to the castle!
--
A couple of things to note, after watching the video twenty times...
1) "Ooooooooooooooooaaah" - Zant 11 minutes into the video. He does this creepy ooooooooaaaa thing right before he is stabbed, and right after he states his god can revive him. What could this mean?
2) Zant says his god will revive him without cease. But one thing I just recently thought of was, can Ganondorf even do that?? Has anyone thought of this before?
3) Midna says that their ancestor's King was lost to greed. Any ideas who this might be? It could lead to discovering who the tribe originally was.
4) Midna CONFIRMS that Ganondorf was using Zant to enter the world of Light. Whether that is the source of Ganon's power or not is still up for debate, but at least we now know that that much is true; Ganondorf used Zant to some extent.
That's one handy snippit of information, that quote.
3) Midna says that their ancestor's King was lost to greed. Any ideas who this might be? It could lead to discovering who the tribe originally was.
Magic Emperor Mujura?
4) Midna CONFIRMS that Ganondorf was using Zant to enter the world of Light. Whether that is the source of Ganon's power or not is still up for debate, but at least we now know that that much is true; Ganondorf used Zant to some extent.
Considering that the Twili were banished and therefore none of them could normally get back into Hyrule, I suppose what Ganon needed was a body to place his own power into, but that it was with this power (whether it came in part from the resentment of the Twili or not), not Zant's, that he came back.
Speaking of that... is it just me, or did the undead soldiers protecting the boss have that symbol on their shields?
Did everyone ignore what I just said? The incription looks like it could easily represent a Stalfos and Stallord.
Just about anywhere. Two good places to look are the rotating room to the side of where you first meet the four ghosts and that long Corridor with a army of StalChildren.
The fact that the motif appears everywhere probably shows that it means nothing in particular. There's a difference between a reused texture used for effect in an ancient ruin and a drawing on a single tree of the main hero that only appears once.
1) "Ooooooooooooooooaaah" - Zant 11 minutes into the video. He does this creepy ooooooooaaaa thing right before he is stabbed, and right after he states his god can revive him. What could this mean?
Eh, he makes weird noises all the time. Doesn't mean anything other than he's insane.
2) Zant says his god will revive him without cease. But one thing I just recently thought of was, can Ganondorf even do that?? Has anyone thought of this before?
Probably, he is armed with the Triforce of Power and can turn into a big flaming head thingie.
Also, thanks for finding the quote I was talking about.
Did everyone ignore what I just said? The incription looks like it could easily represent a Stalfos and Stallord.
I didn't ignore it. In fact it's the reason I'm asking if anybody remembers what was on those shields. Hopefully Jumbie will have a screenie of them tonight.
Gamecube, the Wii version's warrior image has the shield in it's right hand if I recall correctly. That's why I think it could be of Link, people use the left handed reasoning for the Shade, why not a carving in a temple run by the Sages themselves.
It could make a difference - if it's the Gamecube version, you read it right to left, and it could mean something like the soldier changes into this monster thing.
It could make a difference - if it's the Gamecube version, you read it right to left, and it could mean something like the soldier changes into this monster thing.
Ganondorf never, ever carries a shield, so even if that was the intention (which is very hopeful reading) then they're doing a good job to throw people off.
FDS, if the soldier in the carving has the shield in the right hand on the Wii, then surely it *isn't* Link? He always holds his shield in the left hand on the Wii version.
I don't think Showsni meant Ganondorf to Ganon. Maybe normal person/Twili ancestor to Shadow Assassin?
I'm still more incline to believe the two figures represent enemies, but it's an interesting thought.
As for what hand the figure uses, Jumbie says it varies depending on the room its in
I'd like to know if this happens in the GC version since there are something they avoided mirroring in the Wii game (like the word wanted, it's not mirrored even though any other sign in Old Kakariko is)
There's a lot of interesting things in the Arbiter's Grounds. Sometimes above doorways you'll see a grouping of four medallions. It goes light, fire, spirit, and water in that order. However, it only does that because of space. On other columns, it has all six arranged. Sometimes you'll see a picture of some sort of creature with a really long nose and flowing hair. It almost looks like Twinrova, but it has a pitchfork or staff (maybe a broom?), and it's in front of something that looks like a torch. There's yet another set of symbols. There are two creatures standing side by side. One is facing you and the other is facing the side. Both are holding staffs. They look like fire creatures because of the way their bodies are contorted lke dancing flames.
I wish I could grab pictures, but I don't have the code to install the crap I need so I can get the Wii running on the computer monitor.
As for what hand the figure uses, Jumbie says it varies depending on the room its in I'd like to know if this happens in the GC version since there are something they avoided mirroring in the Wii game (like the word wanted, it's not mirrored even though any other sign in Old Kakariko is)
That's not really all that suprising - the texture is probably just mirrored in some places depending on how it is used.
I actually thought that picture looked a whole lot like the scene in the Oracles where Twinrova resurrects Ganon in front of those torches. Of course, the Oracles come near the end of the timeline supposedly. I'm not saying it has any implications on the timeline. I just thought that's what it looked like.
I think one easy way to reconcile OoT's ending with TP's backstory is.. well let's put it this way.
At the end of OoT I was like "what, you're just gonna leave him in there? With the triforce of power still with him? This guy just threatened to come back and kill all of your dogs and children, and you're just gonna let him sit and rot in prison.. a prison full of magical whatnot? Jeez, go in there and kill him properly!" .. now at the time I didn't realize OoT was a prequel and G-dorf had to come back, but when I saw the trial in TP my thought was that they had gone into the sacred realm, pulled him out, explained to him that that was merely Death Row, and it was time to run him through... but by then he'd grown a stylish beard and they'd conveniently forgotten he had the ToP (people are good at forgetting stuff in zelda, let's admit it). So, having just failed to execute bruce banner, they turn on the convenient portal machine and banish the hulk to a DIFFERENT prison this time. This one doesn't have the triforce in it.
TBH I don't see a single similarity between Mujura's Mask and the Fused Shadows. Mujura's mask is essentially the frill of a styracosaurus. The bottom is just tapered to a point, making it heart-shaped. Otherwise it's identical (they're even starting to paint them that way in paleo-art now). The Fused Shadows are grecian-style theater masks, like the ones the sages wear, but dark and twisted.. and having horns like Akajishi no Ou's.
I couldn't see a single polygon in this game, and I rather missed them. Anti-aliasing can suck my deku stick, cuz I like pixels and polygons!
As for the carving in the Arbiter's grounds.. all I can say is I scoured Link's house for a little carving of a boy fighting a monster, and was sad not to find one
Oh, the ol' switch Ganon from one "prison" to another "prison." Actually it's not that old but I heard before and it kinda makes since but I dunno hwo the Twilight Realm is any safer than leaving Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm. Or why they'd forget he had the ToP.
I have another theory. That the Mirror Chamber flashback can actually be spliced inbetween Ganon's defeat at the hands of OoT Link and the scene where he's floating in a white abyss. The only major kink is that in the Mirror Chamber flashback, the Water Sage gets killed and in OoT's ending you see Ruto with the other Sages after Ganon was already gets sucked into the void. So either the scenes aren't neccessarily in order and the Sages were warping off to the Arbiter's Grounds to deal with Ganondorf privately or the TP Sages are actually the Ancient Sages that Rauru is said to be part of.
Well, I should hope not. It would make little sense to banish someone in the land they want to conquer. That and Ganondorf was still going after the Sacred Realm long after the interlopers got banished into the Twilight Realm... so again I don't think it'd wrk very well for the sages to exile him there. So no, I didn't really see anything in the expositions (by Lanayru and Midna) that coul be interpreted in that sense (but I do see why you may wonder, what with the way the Twilight Realm looks...)
Something I've been wondering: although the Sacred Realm and the Twilight Realm are obviously two different places, which one resembles the Golden Land/Dark World of ALttP?
Sacred Realm: 1. Houses the Triforce 2. White Void with Temple of Light somewhere 3. Entrance/exit via Temple of Time 4. Mentioned in OoT 5. Ganon was sealed inside 6. No transformation
Twilight Realm: 1. Doesn't house the Triforce 2. Eternal Dusk, golden sky 3. Entrance/exit via Twilight Mirror 4. Mentioned in TP 5. Ganon was sealed inside 6. Transformation into Wolf/Spirit
Golden Land: 1. Houses the Triforce 2. "In a realm beyond sight, the sky shines gold, not blue" 3. Entrance via portals sealed by Sages, exit by Mirror 4. Mentioned in ALttP 5. Ganon was sealed inside 6. Transformation into Pink Bunny/Monster/Something weird
Also, I believe the Twilight Realm is referenced indirectly as the Underworld. The Twilight Mirror was said to to send inmates straight to the underworld or something like taht. I don't think they meant the Underworld in LoZ. Judging by the context it seemed as though they were talking about the Hylain equivalent of Hell. Which would explain why people turn into spirits there. It's a place of eternal death. The Twilight Realm is also called a world of shadows which makes me think of Dark World but that makes no sense because Dark World is the Sacred Realm amnd the Twilight Realm is supposed to be another seperate realm altogether, right?
To make things more confusing, the Japanese manual for ALttP, I believe, says soething like "And their the Triforce shone, in the middle of the twilight" or something like that, creating more comparisons between the two realms.
Also, I believe the Twilight Realm is referenced indirectly as the Underworld. The Twilight Mirror was said to to send inmates straight to the underworld or something like taht.
That was clearly stated to be legend, tales, unconfirmed rumours, due to the fact that the Arbiter's Grounds was used as an execution ground, and it also houses the Twilight Mirror. The Twilight Realm isn't actually hell, it's clearly stated by Midna and other more reputable characters to be another world connected to Hyrule, much like the Sacred Realm.
I don't think they meant the Underworld in LoZ.
Considering the underworld in the original Zelda literally meant 'underground' and not makai (hell), then definitely not.
Judging by the context it seemed as though they were talking about the Hylain equivalent of Hell. Which would explain why people turn into spirits there. It's a place of eternal death. The Twilight Realm is also called a world of shadows which makes me think of Dark World but that makes no sense because Dark World is the Sacred Realm amnd the Twilight Realm is supposed to be another seperate realm altogether, right?
I think the point is that the game is meant to make you think it IS hell, and technically it is a *sort* of hell, as it's a punishment for the Twili. However, it isn't *actually* hell. I believe the Dark World from ALttP was also referred to as 'makai' in the Japanese versions.
Basically, the word 'hell' or 'underworld' is vague, it doesn't mean one set place, it's just a word for a hellish realm. Try and read it without thinking about a Christian background. Japan is not a Christian country, anyway.
Sacred Realm: 2. White Void with Temple of Light somewhere 6. No transformation
I still don't think we are to take the white void bit literally. And according to AlttP, transformation in the Dark World was caused by the wish of Ganon over the Triforce.
Golden Land: 2. "In a realm beyond sight, the sky shines gold, not blue" 3. Entrance via portals sealed by Sages
As somebody mentioned, the Japanese manual says Twilight, no gold sky. So all the better for your argument Was it said in the game that the Sages sealed those Entrance portals? they seemed pretty open, except when a stone happened to be onto one. Unless you meant sealed as in "make them a one way go".
Is Aonouma TRYING to confuse us?
Duh
Basically, the word 'hell' or 'underworld' is vague, it doesn't mean one set place, it's just a word for a hellish realm.
I think the 'underworld' in AoL was sort-of retconned to be the Dark World, or something like it. Remember, back at the time of Zelda II, Ganon and his minions had no backstory. So the makai mentioned in AoL was basically 'where all the monsters come from'.
