132 replies to this topic

[Raien]

When I first read the ancient inscription next to the resting place of the Magic Trident, I immediately assumed that there must be some sort of evil spirit within the Trident itself, same as everyone else. However, after reading the inscription over a few times, I realised that this interpretation makes no sense within the context of the rest of the script.

If you read the script below, it is obvious that the purpose of the inscription is to address the person who is reading it. However, the term highlighted in bold doesn't appear to speak out to the reader but as a separate description altogether, as if it is talking to itself. The term is in a different context to the rest of the script.

Seek...you...the world? Seek you...power? Does your...soul...despise peace and...thirst for...more? Does your soul...cry...for...destruction and...conquest? We...grant you...power to...ruin...the world. The power of...darkness. Evil...spirit of magic trident. You are...the... King of Darkness.

However, if you change the term in bold from a description to an address toward the reader (to reflect the rest of the script), the words "Evil Spirit" become a title of the reader and implicate the reader with the Trident itself. This raises the question: was it just mere coincidence that the first individual to find the Trident would fit the inscription perfectly? Ganondorf's soul sought power and destruction and the inscription was calling out to someone with those desires. Likewise, Ganondorf's predecessor also possessed the powers of darkness as his desires sought Hyrule's destruction as well.

So is it possible that the Trident was not placed just to be found by anyone but specifically by Ganondorf, the Ancient Demon Reborn, the King of Darkness? Is it possible that Ganondorf was the "Evil Spirit" who was destined to find the power of darkness and use it to ruin the world?

Edited by jhurvid, 16 November 2006 - 06:38 PM.

[LionHarted]

Is it possible that Ganondorf was the "Evil Spirit" who was destined to find the power of darkness and use it to ruin the world?

Ganondorf is not an "evil spirit." He might possess an evil spirit.

Edited by LionHarted, 16 November 2006 - 07:27 PM.

[Raien]

Ganondorf is not an "evil spirit." He might possess an evil spirit.

He is the human incarnation of an evil spirit; the soul of darkness.

Edited by jhurvid, 16 November 2006 - 07:32 PM.

[LionHarted]

He is the human incarnation of an evil spirit; the soul of darkness.

The "incarnation" of the evil spirit is the "demon", not the human. Ganon literally "becomes the devil" when he touches the Triforce/takes the Trident. If he was already the devil prior, what would be the point?

Edited by LionHarted, 16 November 2006 - 07:40 PM.

[Chaltab]

I think the Red Maiden (I believe it was the Red one) was having trouble translating it, hence all the ellipses points. The implication is that whoever takes the Trident of Power will become the King of Darkness. While we know from ALTTP and OOX that Ganondorf was destined to find it, this doesn't neccessarily mean that a previous incarnation of Ganon forged it.

It's possible, but also entirely speculation, especially considering the Pyramid itself was bult by ancestors of the Zuna Tribe.

[Raien]

The "incarnation" of the evil spirit is the "demon", not the human. Ganon literally "becomes the devil" when he touches the Triforce/takes the Trident. If he was already the devil prior, what would be the point?

You're actually right. I was being picky over definitions.

Just so we understand:

Ganondorf: Gerudo Thief = Body of a human / Soul of a demon
Ganon: King of Darkness = Body of a demon / Soul of a demon

Edited by jhurvid, 16 November 2006 - 07:49 PM.

[LionHarted]

Ganondorf: Gerudo Thief = Body of a human / Soul of a demon
Ganon: King of Darkness = Body of a demon / Soul of a demon

If Ganondorf "becomes the devil", that means he wasn't the devil before.

[Raien]

If Ganondorf "becomes the devil", that means he wasn't the devil before.

That depends on the definition of devil. You cannot argue that the Triforce of Power alone created every definable representation of Ganondorf as the King of Evil when a lot of those characteristics were inherent to Ganondorf before he got such power. Likewise, FSA states that Ganondorf was unnaturally evil. How this does not show that Ganondorf possessed a demonic soul before he got the power and title "King of Evil" is beyond me.

[LionHarted]

That depends on the definition of devil. You cannot argue that the Triforce of Power alone created every definable representation of Ganondorf as the King of Evil when a lot of those characteristics were inherent to Ganondorf before he got such power.

Ganondorf did not possess the power to ruin the world, the title of "King of Evil/Darkness", or the ability to transform into a monster until he took the Triforce/Trident. Being evil does not automatically mean someone is possessed by a demon. Is Vaati possessed by a demon?

Likewise, FSA states that Ganondorf was unnaturally evil.

"Yet the man has gone there by himself. All for the sake of his own mad desire!"
"But this child, its heart grew twisted with every passing year. The child became a man who hungered for power at any price."

Neither of these qualities is unnatural. People are perfectly capable of having power-hungry desires without being possessed by demons.

Edited by LionHarted, 17 November 2006 - 07:19 AM.

[Raien]

Ganondorf did not possess the power to ruin the world, the title of "King of Evil/Darkness", or the ability to transform into a monster until he took the Triforce/Trident. Being evil does not automatically mean someone is possessed by a demon. Is Vaati possessed by a demon?

"Yet the man has gone there by himself. All for the sake of his own mad desire!"
"But this child, its heart grew twisted with every passing year. The child became a man who hungered for power at any price."

Neither of these qualities is unnatural. People are perfectly capable of having power-hungry desires without being possessed by demons.

People are capable of desiring power, but desire is not the only aspect of evil that defines Ganondorf, as I have stated at least twice before.

1) Ganondorf in OoT can create monsters, cast curses and control dark enery BEFORE he took the Triforce of Power and "became the devil". Are you trying to tell me that this evil power somehow generated from his desire alone? The other Gerudo did not possess this ability.

2) The Gerudo Kings in FSA are destined to be honourable guardians of the tribe, as stated in the game. Ganondorf did not care about honour but his own power. By breaking destiny, which has gone as far as to decide the Heroes and the Princesses of Destiny, we see that Ganondorf's desire is unaffected by the Gods' power, which implies chaos. The inscription then reiterates this point and fits Ganondorf's character perfectly. I fail to see how that when the inscription could be talking to any reader, that the reader should be Ganondorf by coincidence. It is as if the inscription was meant to speak directly to him.

3) Vaati's desire for power was defined as the weakness of the hearts of men, not an innate wish to destroy Hyrule. Likewise, Vaati possessed no unnatural power until he stole the wishing cap.

"Becoming the devil" is a vague statement. Since OoT is the first time that the source of chaos had a physical embodiment that could actually threaten and destroy the order of Hyrule, the term is very likely referring to that transformation. The devil as only a soul has no command or ability to actually show the properties of the devil in question. If Damien did not have the potential to destroy the world with his demonic powers, could he be considered the devil?

Edited by jhurvid, 17 November 2006 - 08:24 AM.

[LionHarted]

1) Ganondorf in OoT can create monsters, cast curses and control dark enery BEFORE he took the Triforce of Power and "became the devil". Are you trying to tell me that this evil power somehow generated from his desire alone? The other Gerudo did not possess this ability.

With a pair of witches as his surrogate mothers, I wouldn't be surprised if he could fly, too.

2) The Gerudo Kings in FSA are destined to be honourable guardians of the tribe, as stated in the game.

Just because the word "destiny" is used does not suggest the divine are involved. The destiny of the special child to become the guardian Gerudo is based on the fact that tradition says it will be so more so than any kind of destiny-driven coincidence.

3) Vaati's desire for power was defined as the weakness of the hearts of men, not an innate wish to destroy Hyrule. Likewise, Vaati possessed no unnatural power until he stole the wishing cap.

You are wrong in both of these.
1) Vaati was infatuated with the hearts of men;
2) Neither did Ganondorf possess "unnatural power" until he touched the Triforce/Trident

"Becoming the devil" is a vague statement.

You're right. But when coupled with the parallel--that the identity of Ganon was "born" when he touched the Triforce--it becomes much less so.

The devil as only a soul has no command or ability to actually show the properties of the devil in question.

This is lovely concept that you've made up.

[Raien]

With a pair of witches as his surrogate mothers, I wouldn't be surprised if he could fly, too.

Question: Why didn't Twinrova teach the whole tribe evil desire/magic if that was possible? I find it inconsistent that they serve darkness and yet they don't teach darkness to anyone other than Ganondorf, unless Ganondorf has abilities that mirrors his soul (i.e. the power of darkness).

Just because the word "destiny" is used does not suggest the divine are involved. The destiny of the special child to become the guardian Gerudo is based on the fact that tradition says it will be so more so than any kind of destiny-driven coincidence.

If Ganondorf had been brought up to conform to tradition of the Gerudo, there would have been no reason for his heart to seek desire beyond what he already had. The evil heart that Ganondorf possessed was especially emphasised in FSA, and for a good reason. It was unnatural.

2) Neither did Ganondorf possess "unnatural power" until he touched the Triforce/Trident

OoT.

You're right. But when coupled with the parallel--that the identity of Ganon was "born" when he touched the Triforce--it becomes much less so.

"The identity of Ganon was born when he touched the Triforce". This is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Before taking on the form of Ganondorf, the source of chaos would have had no identity because he had never infilitrated the order of Hyrule that had been created by the Gods. His definition as Ganon: King of Darkness is the first title that defines who he is and what he represents and so we see this as the birth of the devil.

This is lovely concept that you've made up.

The human body has limits to the power that they wield, which is why Ganon/Vaati get more powerful by shedding their natural bodies. Hence, the transition from human to demon takes place as the characters get evil power.

Edited by jhurvid, 17 November 2006 - 09:18 AM.

[LionHarted]

Question: Why didn't Twinrova teach the whole tribe evil desire/magic if that was possible? I find it inconsistent that they serve darkness and yet they don't teach darkness to anyone other than Ganondorf, unless Ganondorf has abilities that mirrors his soul (i.e. the power of darkness).

Because they're his mother[s]? Perhaps they're supposed to help raise all the Gerudo Kings.

If Ganondorf had been brought up to conform to tradition of the Gerudo, there would have been no reason for his heart to seek desire beyond what he already had. The evil heart that Ganondorf possessed was especially emphasised in FSA, and for a good reason. It was unnatural.

One can be evil without being a demon. Again, see Vaati.

Before taking on the form of Ganondorf, the source of chaos would have had no identity because he had never infilitrated the order of Hyrule that had been created by the Gods.

None of this means anything, since it's all stuff that only you have said, not the game.

The human body has limits to the power that they wield, which is why Ganon/Vaati get more powerful by shedding their natural bodies. Hence, the transition from human to demon takes place as the characters get evil power.

See, I agree with you here.

[Raien]

Because they're his mother[s]? Perhaps they're supposed to help raise all the Gerudo Kings.

I would assume that if the witches who raised Ganondorf served darkness that they would have encouraged the other Gerudo to serve darkness as well. Despite that they are Gerudo, I see a definite separation between Twinrova and the rest of the tribe. Nabooru didn't appear to be expecting them at the Spirit Temple when she broke in. The carpenters said that Nabooru did brainwashing at the Temple, not Twinrova. It's as if no one really knows about Twinrova at all other than Ganondorf.

None of this means anything, since it's all stuff that only you have said, not the game.

We know that there was Chaos since the beginning of time.
We know that Chaos and Darkness are the same.
We know that Chaos has been seeking to destroy the order of Hyrule since the beginning.

That said, the source of darkness had never taken form before Ganondorf was born. Hence, Ganon becomes the identity that we recognise as the King of Darkness.

Edited by jhurvid, 17 November 2006 - 10:18 AM.

[LionHarted]

I would assume that if the witches who raised Ganondorf served darkness that they would have encouraged the other Gerudo to serve darkness as well. Despite that they are Gerudo, I see a definite separation between Twinrova and the rest of the tribe. Nabooru didn't appear to be expecting them at the Spirit Temple when she broke in. The carpenters said that Nabooru did brainwashing at the Temple, not Twinrova. It's as if no one really knows about Twinrova at all other than Ganondorf.

Other than the Gerudo King. Yes.

We know that there was Chaos since the beginning of time.
We know that Chaos and Darkness are the same.
We know that Chaos has been seeking to destroy the order of Hyrule since the beginning.

No, "chaos" in physical terms is not the same as "chaos" in social terms.

That said, the source of darkness had never taken form before Ganondorf was born. Hence, Ganon becomes the identity that we recognise as the King of Darkness.

The "source of darkness" had never taken form until Ganondorf touched the Triforce, you mean.

[Chaltab]

Okay. Well here's my take on it.....

1) I think it's clear that Ganondorf had unnatural abilities prior to touching the Triforce of Power or the Trident. He shot a fireball at Link in OOT, awakened ancient monsters, cast curses, and did other magic-related things. I also think that these abilities can easily be explained as magic taught to him by Kotake and Koume rather than Ganondorf somehow born with darkness in his soul. We know from TWW that Ganondorf's motivation for his deeds was not inherent evil but rather hatred born of envy. "The winds that blew across the green fields of Hyrule brought something other than suffering and ruin. I... coveted that wind, I suppose."

2) Ganondorf of FSA seems to be the reincarnation of the original with some of the personality, at least, if not the memories as well. Ganondorf found the Trident of Power and with it became the King of Darkness, the giant-blue-pig form of Ganon (the Ganon of OOT is neither fat, nor blue, and seems to be half lizzard judging by his tail...)

3) Whether the Trident was forged by a previous version of Ganondorf/Ganon or by some other entity is unknown. Whether it somehow possesses the essence of the Original Ganon or if the essence was simply in the heart of the reincarnated Ganondorf (making the Trident just a powerful evil artifact) is also unknown. We know the ancestors of the Zuna built the Pyramid, so unless we find something in an as-of-yet unreleased game that connects the ancient Zuna or the Pyramid to a version of Ganon... assuming that Ganon forged the Trident of Power is speculation.

[Raien]

Other than the Gerudo King. Yes.

Then answer me this. Why didn't Ganondorf's predecessors curse the Deku Tree or try to steal the Ocarina? Whats so special about Ganondorf that only he desires to take the Triforce?

This is what I find difficult to understand about your interpretation of Ganondorf. Yes, characters can be evil and not demons, but no other evil characters have had entire prophecies written around them, the gods directly intervening to defeat them. Ganondorf is not just someone who happened to be evil, his evil soul was written into prophecy long before he was even born. It is obvious that his evil soul and his evil powers (before and after he gets more power) are directly connected to darkness, to the power that is inherent to him. As a simple Gerudo thief, Ganondorf/Ganon does not have an identity as the King of Darkness, the source of chaos. So ever after he gets this identity, he is called Ganon, he even when he is revived and with no connection to the Gerudo, like in LoZ.

No, "chaos" in physical terms is not the same as "chaos" in social terms.

I only used the physical terms for chaos. Before the gods established order, there was chaos. That which spread across Hyrule before LoZ was also chaos. The chaos took the form of the monsters and Ganon was revived as the chaos grew strong. There is heavy implication that chaos is the same as darkness.

When people refer to a particular situation as chaos or chaotic, then we can take it as social. I won't use such examples though when discussing chaos as a physical essence.

The "source of darkness" had never taken form until Ganondorf touched the Triforce, you mean.

No. Ganondorf as an average human can create darkness, but not very much (hence the monsters and ball of energy in OoT). The more power that he gains, the more darkness that he can produce. When he reaches his full power, he can shed his human body and take on the form of darkness (the demon).

Edited by jhurvid, 17 November 2006 - 04:19 PM.

[LionHarted]

Then answer me this. Why didn't Ganondorf's predecessors curse the Deku Tree or try to steal the Ocarina? Whats so special about Ganondorf that only he desires to take the Triforce?

You would be a fool if you said that Ganondorf was the only person in Hyrule who desired the Triforce.

Ganondorf is not just someone who happened to be evil, his evil soul was written into prophecy long before he was even born.

In FSA. Not in OoT.

As a simple Gerudo thief, Ganondorf/Ganon does not have an identity as the King of Darkness, the source of chaos.

As a simple human being, Ganondorf cannot inherently possses the soul of an evil demon.

So ever after he gets this identity, he is called Ganon, he even when he is revived and with no connection to the Gerudo, like in LoZ.

In the Oracles titles, he is still referred to as "Gerudo King."

I only used the physical terms for chaos. Before the gods established order, there was chaos.

i.e., nothing had order.

That which spread across Hyrule before LoZ was also chaos.

Chaos. As in... rampant destruction and turmoil. Also, the chaos didn't spread across Hyrule; the world was in chaos, but Hyrule was at peace until Ganon came.

When people refer to a particular situation as chaos or chaotic, then we can take it as social. I won't use such examples though when discussing chaos as a physical essence.

We're talking about a particular situation--the Age of Chaos.

No. Ganondorf as an average human can create darkness, but not very much (hence the monsters and ball of energy in OoT). The more power that he gains, the more darkness that he can produce. When he reaches his full power, he can shed his human body and take on the form of darkness (the demon).

Ganondorf "creates" the monsters? Do you have proof for this?

Edited by LionHarted, 17 November 2006 - 04:43 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Ganondorf was an evil asshole who desired power and got it. That's it.

[Raien]

In FSA. Not in OoT.

Although it is not specific, the fact that the Hero of Time was destined to appear and seal away the great evil, this proves that prophecy had to intervene to defeat Ganon. No other form of evil has been written into prophecy.

As a simple human being, Ganondorf cannot inherently possses the soul of an evil demon.

This presumes that Ganondorf in OoT/FSA is just a simple human being. The soul of a demon would make him less than human, even though it is only apparent on the inside until he gains more power.

In the Oracles titles, he is still referred to as "Gerudo King."

This presumes Oracles is a canon title. It was the third storyline for the games, originally meant to be remakes of older titles. No one from Nintendo, other than Miyamoto, had any involvement with the series. Every concept was either completely new/irrelevant or completely ripped from mainstream titles. I can't accept any terms there to be accurate until evidence from other games such as TP confirm this.

Chaos. As in... rampant destruction and turmoil. Also, the chaos didn't spread across Hyrule; the world was in chaos, but Hyrule was at peace until Ganon came.

We're talking about a particular situation--the Age of Chaos.

Out of interest, why didn't you contradict me on this when I gave you the full elaboration of Chaos in that post? You told me that most of it (everything relating to chaos at least) was perfectly fine.

Anyway, the fight between light and darkness reflects the fight between order and chaos. The chaos in LoZ was caused by the strength of darkness and the Gods own power made light, the same power that established order and the Triforce.

Ganondorf "creates" the monsters? Do you have proof for this?

I can imagine the Deku Scrubs are not his creations, since they generally possess independence to Ganon's power (giving you hints/items) despite being his followers. Yet there is no reason why Queen Gohma as Ganondorf's "curse" would not be Ganondorf's own creation, considering that he follows Ganondorf's command. Are you trying to tell me that Ganondorf somehow herded the Dodongos into the cave in mass numbers without anyone noticing or that he just encouraged Jabu-Jabu to open his mouth while he shoved Barinade down his throat? It is quite obvious that the creatures materialised within as the result of Ganondorf's magic (the curses). Then lets not forget the hordes of other monsters that appear within the dungeons and around Hyrule. The monsters in other games have been a sign of darkness gaining strength.

Edited by jhurvid, 17 November 2006 - 09:36 PM.

[LionHarted]

This presumes that Ganondorf in OoT/FSA is just a simple human being. The soul of a demon would make him less than human, even though it is only apparent on the inside until he gains more power.

He was "once human".

This presumes Oracles is a canon title. It was the third storyline for the games, originally meant to be remakes of older titles. No one from Nintendo, other than Miyamoto, had any involvement with the series. Every concept was either completely new/irrelevant or completely ripped from mainstream titles. I can't accept any terms there to be accurate until evidence from other games such as TP confirm this.

Then I can't accept any terms you present to be accurate, either, since no one from Nintendo has been involved with you.

Out of interest, why didn't you contradict me on this when I gave you the full elaboration of Chaos in that post? You told me that most of it (everything relating to chaos at least) was perfectly fine.

I tried to. You insisted that chaos=darkness.

Anyway, the fight between light and darkness reflects the fight between order and chaos.

Not necessarily. This is still your opinion.

Yet there is no reason why Queen Gohma as Ganondorf's "curse" would not be Ganondorf's own creation, considering that he follows Ganondorf's command.

Aside from the fact that Gohma exists in plenty of other games, including the Oracles titles (which I understand you don't include, despite my doing so just to spite you).

Are you trying to tell me that Ganondorf somehow herded the Dodongos into the cave in mass numbers without anyone noticing or that he just encouraged Jabu-Jabu to open his mouth while he shoved Barinade down his throat? It is quite obvious that the creatures materialised within as the result of Ganondorf's magic (the curses).

But Ganondorf himself did not create the monsters. His actions merely "poison the land."

[Duke Serkol]

3) Whether the Trident was forged by a previous version of Ganondorf/Ganon or by some other entity is unknown. Whether it somehow possesses the essence of the Original Ganon or if the essence was simply in the heart of the reincarnated Ganondorf (making the Trident just a powerful evil artifact) is also unknown. We know the ancestors of the Zuna built the Pyramid, so unless we find something in an as-of-yet unreleased game that connects the ancient Zuna or the Pyramid to a version of Ganon... assuming that Ganon forged the Trident of Power is speculation.

I concur (and also on point 1. Point 2 I wouldn't be so sure).
If you would like to reply to me about this Chaltab, then feel free to e-mail me as I'll be gone for a few weeks (for obvious reasons )

[Raien]

He was "once human".

When Ganondorf gained the body of a demon, he lost all of his humanity. Even Ganondorf in TWW showed some human emotions in relation his homeland, but this doesn't stop him desiring complete destruction of Hyrule.

Then I can't accept any terms you present to be accurate, either, since no one from Nintendo has been involved with you.

Sorry, was that supposed to be an argument?

Why do we not treat the CD-i Zeldas as canon? Because Nintendo had no involvement with the series, so it is effectively fanfiction. Oracles had Miyamoto but then Miyamoto claimed ALTTP came after AoL and TWW was the oldest game in the timeline, so he is hardly going to be accurately representing the timeline for the home team. What makes Oracles appear to be more accurate than CD-i Zelda is that there was much more mainstream basis for the games to copy, such as OoT. It doesn't make it any more canon though.

I tried to. You insisted that chaos=darkness.

Not necessarily. This is still your opinion.

Want to see an interesting detail?

Your gods destroyed you!

The use of the term "your" implies that the gods did not create Ganon. Since only chaos existed before the Gods created order in Hyrule, does this not imply that Ganon was in-truth born from the chaos?

Aside from the fact that Gohma exists in plenty of other games, including the Oracles titles (which I understand you don't include, despite my doing so just to spite you).

You mean like Phantom Ganon and the Helmaroc King also reappeared after they were killed? Thanks for proving that Gohma was created by Ganondorf.

But Ganondorf himself did not create the monsters. His actions merely "poison the land."

Of course, so we can take "poisoning" the land as a literal meaning despite that we see no visual evidence of it (other than the monsters of course) and we can assume that Ganondorf literally shoved Barinade down Jabu-Jabu's throat because he didn't have the magic to create him through the curse.

Edited by jhurvid, 18 November 2006 - 09:01 AM.

[Crazy Penguin]

Has anyone tried getting a literal translation of the Japanese version of that trident passage?

[LionHarted]

When Ganondorf gained the body of a demon, he lost all of his humanity. Even Ganondorf in TWW showed some human emotions in relation his homeland, but this doesn't stop him desiring complete destruction of Hyrule.

I don't see how the form he takes can make him any more or less evil--maybe more or less powerful.

The use of the term "your" implies that the gods did not create Ganon. Since only chaos existed before the Gods created order in Hyrule, does this not imply that Ganon was in-truth born from the chaos?

"Your gods" = "the gods you serve." Ganon does not serve the gods; he defies them.

You mean like Phantom Ganon and the Helmaroc King also reappeared after they were killed? Thanks for proving that Gohma was created by Ganondorf.

No; I've just proven that there is more than one Gohma and more than one Roc.

Of course, so we can take "poisoning" the land as a literal meaning despite that we see no visual evidence of it (other than the monsters of course) and we can assume that Ganondorf literally shoved Barinade down Jabu-Jabu's throat because he didn't have the magic to create him through the curse.

Ganondorf "shoved Barinade down Jabu-Jabu's throat?" All he has to do is put a fish in front of his mouth. =/

[Raien]

I don't see how the form he takes can make him any more or less evil--maybe more or less powerful.

It's not about being more or less evil, its about being more or less human. Ganondorf has a demon soul, which grants him his evil heart and evil powers, but he was still born and rasied as a Gerudo. His primary desire is to conquer/destroy Hyrule with darkness, but as a human he still feels some emotion that we would associate with humanity.

"Your gods" = "the gods you serve." Ganon does not serve the gods; he defies them.

So why does Ganon/Darkness defy the Gods?

No; I've just proven that there is more than one Gohma and more than one Roc.

There would not be an abundance of these monsters without Ganondorf's magic. He obviously makes them with his own power.

Ganondorf "shoved Barinade down Jabu-Jabu's throat?" All he has to do is put a fish in front of his mouth. =/

So how did Ganondorf disguise Barinade and sneak him past King Zora then?

[LionHarted]

It's not about being more or less evil, its about being more or less human.

Ganondorf is human until he takes the Trident.

Ganondorf has a demon soul, which grants him his evil heart and evil powers

You don't need a demon soul to be evil and have evil powers.

So why does Ganon/Darkness defy the Gods?

Because he's got a lot of shortcomings, is greedy and selfish, and desires power.

You're making it WAY too complicated.

There would not be an abundance of these monsters without Ganondorf's magic. He obviously makes them with his own power.

This is faulty reasoning.

A does not entail B.

So how did Ganondorf disguise Barinade and sneak him past King Zora then?

Again, you're making it way too complicated.

[Raien]

Ganondorf is human until he takes the Trident.

He's not completely human; his soul is that of the demon. You need to understand that humanity is being defined by the body as well as as the soul and that there is no direct transition from just "complete human" to "complete demon". Ganondorf in TWW had already become "the devil" but he still thought about his homeland, the emotions of that situation, which shows he had not lost all of his humanity. Ganondorf in FSA was the Gerudo King but we see him as a pig monster in the ending. Zelda explains this by saying that he used to be human, but he is not any longer since all of him had been disconnected from the Gerudo.

You don't need a demon soul to be evil and have evil powers.

True, but then you don't appear to be understanding the upscale of evil that Ganon possesses in comparison to every other evil character. If others were such a threat as Ganon (even Vaati who at one point almost gained limitless magical power), they too would have prophecies written about them. No alternative evil character wishes to actually destroy Hyrule and remake it in darkness and those characters who do make it so by giving power to Ganon. Ganon is not just a human who becomes evil with power, he is the actual key to Hyrule's destruction. Whenever evil is revived, it is always through him.

This is why I can't accept Ganondorf as just an evil man who gets power. He has an unnaturally evil heart and evil powers to begin with in OoT. He is prophecised and stated as the only threat to Hyrule's very existence. Even Vaati becomes a servant of Ganon, despite almost gaining limitless magical power himself. Everything about Ganon implies/states the embodiment of darkness and every other form of evil supports him.

Because he's got a lot of shortcomings, is greedy and selfish, and desires power.

Well, lets put it like this. We know that both light and order are creations of the Gods. We know that darkness wants to destroy order and is repelled by the light. In other words, the power of the darkness is the opposite to everything that the Gods stand for. Reading the text again, I'll grant you that the use of the term "chaos" does not appear in LoZ's intro. However, if there is an opposite to order, it would have existed from the very beginning of time, as chaos. If darkness is against the light and seeks to destroy the order, then we can infer that it is chaos in a physical/metaphorical form.

As long as darkness existed since the beginning of time, the embodiment of darkness existed, which is Ganon. He is the incarnation of darkness.

It was the power left behind by the wicked heart of Ganon, that was thoroughly corrupting the order in Hyrule.

Again, you're making it way too complicated.

Hardly, you're trying to tell me that Ganondorf didn't have unnatural power as a Gerudo thief when it is the only sensible explanation of events before he took the Triforce of Power.

Edited by jhurvid, 18 November 2006 - 11:17 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Ganondorf doesn't have the soul of a demon. He was a greedy human(oid) that had no qualms of using demonic power to get what he wanted. It's nothing new. The Gerudo factually serve a different pantheon of Gods, or at the very least have an extra Goddess. And even if not, that doesn't rule out Ganondorf being an atheist, or not wanting to acknowledge the Goddesses as his creators. Humans in the real world are the same way some times.

You can say he has a demon soul all you want, but there's no evidence for it. Shit, there's no canon evidence of demons even EXISTING in Zelda. And even if so, all of Ganondorf's evil behavior can be explained with ordinary human impulses, desires, emotions, and psychology. He was an ordinary man that got the chance to seize his evil ambitions.

[LionHarted]

He's not completely human; his soul is that of the demon.

You. Made. This. Up.

We know that both light and order are creations of the Gods. We know that darkness wants to destroy order and is repelled by the light. In other words, the power of the darkness is the opposite to everything that the Gods stand for.

True, but then you don't appear to be understanding the upscale of evil that Ganon possesses in comparison to every other evil character.

Ganon is evil, but there are prophecies about him because he's fated to take the Triforce.
Curiously enough, this is the same concept used in Christianity. Only... Christianity doesn't believe that evil people have demonic souls--they're just evil for one reason or another, usually because they're tempted by other evil beings.

As long as darkness existed since the beginning of time, the embodiment of darkness existed, which is Ganon. He is the incarnation of darkness.

Indeed, the King of Evil Ganon, the one who has threatened Hyrule so, was born at this time.

Hardly, you're trying to tell me that Ganondorf didn't have unnatural power as a Gerudo thief when it is the only sensible explanation of events before he took the Triforce of Power.

Dark magic is hardly unnatural in a fantasy world.

Edited by LionHarted, 18 November 2006 - 01:11 PM.