79 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

Unless the act of creating the seal trascends both timelines

If the act of creating the seal transcends both timelines, then there's no "ending where Adult Link defeated Ganon", because this happens in both timelines.

[Arturo]

No, because it doesn't happen in both Timelines at the same time.
Let me ellaborate on the theory:

Adult Timeline-------------------->Ganondorf is sealed
^
|
Seven Years
|
Original (Child) OoT---------------->Ganondorf is sealed

Is my point clear enough?

[spunky-monkey]

Well the Sacred Realm exists outside of Hyrule and normal space-time so anything's possible. Zelda did mention that as soon as the seal was cast "Ganon would vanish from this world".

[Chaltab]

Okay, here's my theory. It may sound a bit fanficcy, but so be it.

When the Sages and Zelda cast their seal, Ganondorf is in his Ganon form. But when you see him floating in the void of the Evil Realm, he's back to his Ganondorf form. Why? My theory is that the moment Ganon is sealed away, the Evil King is ejected into the Evil Realm, and at the same time, the moment Link returns to the past, the Gerudo Theif is ejected into the Evil Realm from the time he first entered through the Door of Time, essentially combining the two versions of Ganondorf into one being that has memories of the seven years, and the Triforce of Power, but the body of his original form--which is why he's Ganondorf and not Ganon in TWW.

Of course Twilight Princess may void my theory, but there it is.

[LionHarted]

My theory is that the moment Ganon is sealed away, the Evil King is ejected into the Evil Realm, and at the same time, the moment Link returns to the past, the Gerudo Theif is ejected into the Evil Realm from the time he first entered through the Door of Time, essentially combining the two versions of Ganondorf into one being that has memories of the seven years, and the Triforce of Power, but the body of his original form--which is why he's Ganondorf and not Ganon in TWW.

Logically impossible. If Ganondorf the Gerudo thief was sealed in the past, then Ganon the Evil King couldn't have been sealed in the future (since he would have already been sealed).

[TheAvengerLever]

Exactly why a split timeline can't work at all.

[Arturo]

No, that's exactly what makes the split work. You don't understand at all mechanics of time travel. If someone traveled to the past, according to Hawking, and changed something, he would either do something that was already in the Hystory (like in HP3) or create two alternative timelines, the original from whre the traveler came from, that shows no alteration, and the other, that shows the alteration.

In OoT it is the same. In the Adult Timeline is Ganondorf sealed, and so is he in the Child Timeline, but that doesn't affect the Adult Timeline's apsat, because they are independent, alternative timelines. I know it's difficult to understand, but that's how it is.

I think I said it quite well in my schema

[mmmmm_PIE]

Well, those are two possibilities. The grandfather paradox has other possible resolutions which are less applicable to out situation.

Anyway, Arturo, could you logically, explain why the seal extends back in time to the moment where the timeline plsits (and where you beleive that moment is)?

PS: Darkknuckle/Cucco, curse you and your tactics!

Edited by mmmmm_PIE, 17 November 2006 - 07:16 PM.

[Arturo]

Why?

I accept it as a given fact, shown in OoT, MM and the MM manga.

When? Seven years before. To solve many paradoxes, just after Ganondorf touches the Triforce.

[TheAvengerLever]

No no no, Arturo. By rules of time travel, you're not creating two timelines but two dimensions in which the same Time exists.

[Arturo]

And the difference is?

[mmmmm_PIE]

Well, your attempting to logically enforce an OOT-MM connection, which I beleie is a silly thing to attempt. Before I let you off, I expect your logic to be empicable.

Unless you can somehow explain why the seal extended backwards in time to your exact chosen moment, then, IMO, you simply inventing fan fiction to enforce your theory.

And avenger, you concept of "a time" seems foreign to me, artuto, and who knows how many other users. Could you expand on or define it?

Edited by mmmmm_PIE, 17 November 2006 - 07:22 PM.

[Arturo]

In OoT, in the ending we see Zelda back in the Courtyard, even though she has already fled away. In MM we see the same. It's a peaceful Hyrule, Ganondorf is not ariound anymore. The seal must have trascended.

[TheAvengerLever]

There is a watch. What does it tell? Time. What Arturo defines as an alternative timeline is a parralel universe. But according to theory on parralel universe, put against the future in OoT, a parralel universe cannot be made in that time. It can't split there. It would look like this.
OoT Future
|
OoT
|
New OoT Past.

if I am correct in my understanding of a parralel universe.

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 17 November 2006 - 07:32 PM.

[Arturo]

Look at my schema. It's just more complicated way of saying it.

[TheAvengerLever]

Your schema?

[Arturo]

No, because it doesn't happen in both Timelines at the same time.
Let me ellaborate on the theory:

Adult Timeline-------------------->Ganondorf is sealed
^
|
Seven Years
|
Original (Child) OoT---------------->Ganondorf is sealed

Is my point clear enough?

Yup

[TheAvengerLever]

Who sealed Ganon in the past?

[Arturo]

The seal from teh future. Its creation trascends timelines

[mmmmm_PIE]

Yes Arturo, I know the argument for the seal transcending time. However, you suggest that the seal transcends to an exact moment. Takes Ganon there, and extends back no further.

I wonder, if the seal did transcend time, why didn't it transcend all time?

Edited by mmmmm_PIE, 17 November 2006 - 07:49 PM.

[CID Farwin]

I'll try and say this as blunt as I can on such short notice.

Time is a dimention, like length, width, and height; albiet humans have a limited knowledge of time only being able to travel along it one way. As I see it, time travel is no more than teleporting from one point along time to another.

The most logical theory of time travel is what happenes in "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" or the third Harry Potter where one goes to the past and causes things to happen, which in their time period have already happened. In simpler words, time loops. This is what happenes in 99.99% of OoT, the Windmill man and song of storms being an example.

When Link travels to the past the final time, he closes the door of time and leaves Hyrule. The door of time is then closed in 7 years when Link leaves the Sacred Realm, essentially creating a paradox. Saying anything else is fanfiction unless Nintendo decides to make a game on the matter.

When a Paradox is created, the subject gets a little iffy, seeing as how nobody has gone back in time and created one.

I'll stop there for now.

P.S. There are already two timelines, whether the universe splits or not: Link's timeline and everything else's timeline. B)

{edit} There have been some posts while I was writing, so I'll elaborate: The split happened, if at all AFTER Link traveled to the past the last time, so I don't really get the transcending seal stuff.

Edited by CID Farwin, 17 November 2006 - 08:02 PM.

[Vimes]

Yes Arturo, I know the argument for the seal transcending time. However, you suggest that the seal transcends to an exact moment. Takes Ganon there, and extends back no further.

I wonder, if the seal did transcend time, why didn't it transcend all time?

...

*head asplodes*

What's a schema?

[Showsni]

Time's just a useful way of looking at things one after the other. It doesn't really exist - it just lets you know that stuff is in a different place to how it used to be. The past does not exist (nor does the future), and it is thus impossible to reach it - the best you can do is rearrange every atom in the present into the positions they used to occupy, except for whoever is travelling through time. I.e. change teh present so that it looks exactly like teh past. This is, to all extents and purposes, time travel. A seal that "transcends time" would be one that it is impossible to ever move the atoms of again, so that it stays where it is no matter how else you rearrange the universe. It's possible, I guess.

[Chaltab]

Logically impossible. If Ganondorf the Gerudo thief was sealed in the past, then Ganon the Evil King couldn't have been sealed in the future (since he would have already been sealed).

It's not logically impossible if the sacred realm transcends normal Hyrulean time, as both Split Timeliners and Single Timeliners generally espouse. If Ganondorf of the future was already sealed in the Realm, then it wouldn't matter what happened to the Ganondorf of the past--the future version would still exist.

That said, if the single timeline is true, then it's more likely that Link changed nothing. Wind Waker implies this is the case with the pictures of the sages in the Master Sword chamber. On the other hand, if Link changed nothing it would be difficult to explain Zelda's presence back in the courtyard at the end of the game.

No, that's exactly what makes the split work. You don't understand at all mechanics of time travel. If someone traveled to the past, according to Hawking, and changed something, he would either do something that was already in the Hystory (like in HP3) or create two alternative timelines, the original from whre the traveler came from, that shows no alteration, and the other, that shows the alteration.

And you do understand the mechanics of Time Travel? Congradulations, Dr. Brown. Gonna get a patent on that flux capacitor? Seriously, brilliant a mind as Professor Hawking may be, until he demonstrates that he's actually engaged in time travel, his theories are not fact, and under no circumstances do they have to be strictly followed by a game or any other media.

In OoT it is the same. In the Adult Timeline is Ganondorf sealed, and so is he in the Child Timeline, but that doesn't affect the Adult Timeline's apsat, because they are independent, alternative timelines. I know it's difficult to understand, but that's how it is.

Um, seriously dude, you come across as kind of arrogant saying that 'it's difficult ot understand' and 'that's how it is' as if you can't possibly be wrong. Split Timelines is no more fact at the moment than single timelines, and spoilers for TP indicate that there is strong evidence in that game for a single-timeline.

[mmmmm_PIE]

...if the sacred realm transcends normal Hyrulean time, as both Split Timeliners and Single Timeliners generally espouse....

Why do people keep saying this?
No one has ever shown a good argument as to why this should be true, whereas general happenings in AlttP and OoT (7 year SR sleep, 7 year real world horror) make it laughably rediculous.

The truth is, people see Zelda in the garden, come up with a quick and silly explanation, and ignore all arguments, when the simple fact of life is that there is no explanation for Zelda in the garden.

[LionHarted]

It's not logically impossible if the sacred realm transcends normal Hyrulean time, as both Split Timeliners and Single Timeliners generally espouse. If Ganondorf of the future was already sealed in the Realm, then it wouldn't matter what happened to the Ganondorf of the past--the future version would still exist.

But the events surrounding the sealing of Ganondorf in the future would by effect cease to exist, when they clearly do not.

Event A happens in the future.
Event B happens in the past, effectively accomplishing what Event A would have done.
Because of Event B, Event A could not have happened.

Edited by LionHarted, 17 November 2006 - 08:39 PM.