79 replies to this topic

[Vimes]

Right. Hmm. Where to begin?

Time travel. It's a tricky subject, isn't it? You never know exactly how it's working or what's going on, or what rules it's applying to, if any. But let's go with what we do know. Majora's Mask is the game that involves the most major use of time travel out of the series, and so it's probably a safe bet to use it as a starting point. Link frequently uses the Ocarina of Time to travel backwards in time back to the start of the three days, effectively "rolling back" time to a starting point.

However, when he rolls time back, he is still able to retain items gained during the three days, such as weapons and masks and diary entries. This shows that although the time has been rolled back and effectively no longer exists, a record of these events still does.

In Ocarina of Time as time is rolled back after Ganon is defeated, Link appears again as a child in the Temple of Time with a memory of the events that have taken place, and though he cannot use them he still retains items from the future (such as the bow) when he travels back to childhood.

If you apply the rules of rolling back time from Majora's Mask to what happens in Ocarina of Time, Link goes to the future, defeats Ganon and, with the aid of the Sages, locks him into the Sacred Realm. Time is then rolled back to seven years previously, and all is well. But what would be the point in this if it meant that Ganon would repeat his rise to power all over again?

It's simple: Just as Link retains his items from the rolled back futures of Majora's Mask, when Ganon is imprisoned in the Sacred Realm he is still there even when time is rolled back. Who knows why? Maybe time doesn't affect the Realm in the same way as it does the real world. However, this could also account for why Ganon often appears to be "immortal" and is able to return after hundereds, if not thousands, of years.

So therefore there can't be any split timeline, because instead of time splitting off into different directions, it just rolls back on itself. Not to mention the fact that if the time travel in Ocarina of Time caused a split timeline, wouldn't that mean countless split timelines from every time you traveled back in time in Majora's Mask?

Besides, who in their right mind would actually make the story for a set of video games contain a timeline with a bunch of paradoxes that splits into parallel universes at the drop of a hat?

[Sentient]

Nice find. I've always thought that the Sacred Realm has a different (if any) time frame to Hyrule. I like your way of thinking. Although in OoT, it was the Master Sword that allowed Link to travel back and forth through time, not the Ocarina, so different rules may apply to Ocarina time travel.

[SOAP]

I don't see split timelines holding out for much longer if rumors about TP are true. I've made simmilar arguements against split timelines back in the ady but I disagree on your final conclusion. I don't think time works differently in the Sacred Realm than in the real world. This isn't Narnia. If that were the case then every time Link went into Dark World in ALttP, ages would have passed while he was gone. There's no proof that it it does and it most certianly wouldn't work backwards.

Rather, I think that Link is sent back after he pulls the Master Sword but before Ganondorf leaves the Sacred Realm. Link replacing the Mastersword in the child timeline, closing the gate to the Sacred Realm and thus sealing Ganondorf inside. This actually accounts for Link have the ToC, ect. After that, any number of things could've happen, like the Sages Seal transcends time or Ganon breaks free several years later, takes over Hyrule, and an adult Link mysteriously appears in time to stop him in the adult half of OoT. This Link gets sent back in time to live out his childhood, ect and everything loops around again. I prefer the latter but it's a bit shaky.

[Vimes]

I didn't mean exactly like Narnia, I mean that, well, in the Sacred Realm time doesn't pass. At all. Things can exist inside but they will never age and the perception of time is completely different and probably impossible to estimate. Maybe the Dark World had time because it was given time by the magic, but then again, we never saw anything actually changing or growing there or the sun rising.

[CID Farwin]

Let me say it, plain and simple. TP will clear up any arguments made by TWW. It should answer the burning question about OoT's ending, and it better anihalate one of the timeline theories.

That being said, I've never thought of OoT's end in that way, and it is SO very possible, and is a very nice explanation of the "time trancending seal" theory.

[Chaltab]

Let me say it, plain and simple. TP will clear up any arguments made by TWW. It should answer the burning question about OoT's ending, and it better anihalate one of the timeline theories.

That's not really plain and simple. That's more like cryptic and obtuse.

[Jumbie]

If you apply the rules of rolling back time from Majora's Mask to what happens in Ocarina of Time,

It just isn't possible to apply the rules of MM's rolling back time to OoT. MM involves a time loop, OoT involves two alternate times. Time isn't rewound in OoT, but rather Link switches between two times.

So therefore there can't be any split timeline, because instead of time splitting off into different directions, it just rolls back on itself. Not to mention the fact that if the time travel in Ocarina of Time caused a split timeline, wouldn't that mean countless split timelines from every time you traveled back in time in Majora's Mask?

But none of this is the case. You had better read the article that Arturo and I myself published recently:
A Defence of the Split Timeline Theory
It explains everything about how time travel in MM and OoT works differently, so if you could read through it all, or at least scroll down to the section with the headline "The time loop in Majora's Mask"..

Besides, who in their right mind would actually make the story for a set of video games contain a timeline with a bunch of paradoxes that splits into parallel universes at the drop of a hat?

You're not serious now, are you?!
There are *hundreds* of books, movies, manga, anime and videogame series out there that do involve a timeline split without caring about any confusing effects on the audience.. Sorry, but Zelda is not as "holy" as that its creators could not apply a timeline split to it if they chose to.

Edited by Jumbie, 15 November 2006 - 06:58 PM.

[mmmmm_PIE]

Maybe time doesn't affect the Realm in the same way as it does the real world. However, this could also account for why Ganon often appears to be "immortal" and is able to return after hundereds, if not thousands, of years.

Gah!

I can't beleive how much credit this theory is always given; considering it is suggested by 50% of the new theorists who post concerning the timeline.

1) During his coma, seven years passes for Link in the Sacred Realm while exactly seven years passes for everyone in Hyrule.

2) Link performs actions withing the Sacred Realm during AlttP, these action occur in a chronological order (1 first, 2 second, 3 third etc.) thias could not happen in a timeless world.

3) The Seal that holds Ganon in the Sacred Realm is eventually broken; if the seal saafter being created, exists in the past, thenthe break, after being created, exists in the past. Ganon could step out the the break the moment the seal was created. Or even before he was sealed.

4) If the Seal extended back through time, what reason would it have to stop. Why wouldn't it catch up with Ganon in his childhood, his birth, heck, his conception? If the Seal went back, it time, Ganon would never be unsealed (and therefore unsealable, paradox lol!)

5) A timeless world is beyond human imagination, because it is unrtesponsive to causality.Try to imagine something the happens for no reason and has no consequences. Its impossible. You just end up imagining nothing.

[Paviel]

Although in OoT, it was the Master Sword that allowed Link to travel back and forth through time, not the Ocarina,

If Sheik is to be believed, it was both the Master Sword and the Ocarina that allowed Link to travel back and forth through time. I seem to remember her saying something like "As long as you hold the Master Sword and the Ocarina of Time, you hold time itself in your hands."

It seems to me like time operates differently in Hyrule and Termina. Link never had the Master Sword while he was in Termina, yet the Ocarina alone was enough to give him plenty of control over time there.

That reminds me: Are the Sun Song and the fact that time stood still in certain zones in OoT relevant to these discussions?

Edited by Paviel, 15 November 2006 - 07:39 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

It just isn't possible to apply the rules of MM's rolling back time to OoT. MM involves a time loop, OoT involves two alternate times. Time isn't rewound in OoT, but rather Link switches between two times.

Two times? There's only one time. OoT isn't called Ocarina of Times, you know.

[mmmmm_PIE]

Huh?
12:05 is a time
4:38 is a time

12:05 and 4:38 are times... its a perfectly valid statement.

Edited by mmmmm_PIE, 15 November 2006 - 08:13 PM.

[Tekky]

That reminds me: Are the Sun Song and the fact that time stood still in certain zones in OoT relevant to these discussions?

Suns Song, probably as it accelerates time (Biggoron... lol) although clearly has no effect on time when you use it in caves, dungeons etc on a ReDead.

But time standing still in towns etc is just a game play mechanic, time also stands still on certain islands in TWW (e.g. Windfall)

[TheAvengerLever]

Huh?
12:05 is a time
4:38 is a time

12:05 and 4:38 are times... its a perfectly valid statement.

That's not what we're talking about...since 12:05 and 4:38 is time but it's not Time.

[Mad Scrub]

Suns Song, probably as it accelerates time (Biggoron... lol) although clearly has no effect on time when you use it in caves, dungeons etc on a ReDead.

Are you sure about that? When your inside a cave in OoT you can't really tell whether it's day or night.

Anyway I quite like Vimes's theory.

Edited by Mad Scrub, 15 November 2006 - 09:27 PM.

[mmmmm_PIE]

That's not what we're talking about...since 12:05 and 4:38 is time but it's not Time.

Well, the exact quote was:

MM involves a time loop, OoT involves two alternate times. Time isn't rewound in OoT, but rather Link switches between two times.

Year 0 is a time.
Year 7 is a time.

Year 0 and year 7 are times.
Link travels between year 0 and year 7.

It is a perfectly valid statement: "Link switches between two times"

[MikePetersSucks]

To the person who said the Sacred Realm is timeless or has a different time flow: LTTP.

[TheAvengerLever]

You're missing the key word in that sentence: "alternate."

Alternate means switching between two different states...and since Year 0 and Year 7 are part of the same state, it's one Time.

[LionHarted]

Time isn't rewound in OoT, but rather Link switches between two times.

I recall him returning to his "original time" at the end of the game.

Edited by LionHarted, 16 November 2006 - 12:36 AM.

[mmmmm_PIE]

You're missing the key word in that sentence: "alternate."

Alternate means switching between two different states...and since Year 0 and Year 7 are part of the same state, it's one Time.

According to who? It was Jumbie who used the word "alternate", and it is to jumbie to define it. The dictionary definition I bleive he was shooting for (constituting an alternative) has nothing to do with states, but, rather, the thought that the first year of OOT is an alternate timeframe to the seventh.

Whatever, this is a waste of energy. I'll let Jumbie account for himself here...

[TheAvengerLever]

But still under the same Time.

[jman]

Besides, who in their right mind would actually make the story for a set of video games contain a timeline with a bunch of paradoxes that splits into parallel universes at the drop of a hat?

You know Marvel right? They make Xmen comics, Spiderman and the like.... The Marvel universe i.e. all the comics that come out have nothing but split timelines, they have even dubbed their main timeline "Earth 616" where as storylines which don't follow this will be under another code i.e. Earth 745. They even have a series called "What if" which is devoted to situations that wouldn't happen in the norm of their comic series. So I'd say it's quite likely that the creators could have split the timeline if they wish.
Xmen did it, DBZ did it, both well known cartoons.
The creators don't neccessarily need to worry about those things because nobody really understands how time travel works.

[Vimes]

You know Marvel right? They make Xmen comics, Spiderman and the like.... The Marvel universe i.e. all the comics that come out have nothing but split timelines, they have even dubbed their main timeline "Earth 616" where as storylines which don't follow this will be under another code i.e. Earth 745. They even have a series called "What if" which is devoted to situations that wouldn't happen in the norm of their comic series. So I'd say it's quite likely that the creators could have split the timeline if they wish.
Xmen did it, DBZ did it, both well known cartoons.
The creators don't neccessarily need to worry about those things because nobody really understands how time travel works.

That was DC, and besides it just complicated things further. When did DBZ do it?

Keep in mind that it is impossible to change events that have happened by going back in time- the same thing will happen each time. So, we know that OoT and MM both definitely happened.

Says who? Oh, sorry. Congratulations for being able to travel through time and knowing exactly how it works, then.

Edited by Vimes, 17 November 2006 - 09:59 AM.

[mmmmm_PIE]

DarkKnuckles case (the theoretical "immutability" of time) can be applied to OoT with canonical support.

Take the case of the windmill man;
If travel back in time was allowed to change the future, then he couldn't possibly know the Song of Storms until after the timeline has been altered to accomodate.
If the timeline was constant and unchangable, then he would have learned the SoS in the past regardless of what Link yet accomplished.
Theoretically, time cannot be both alterable and permamnent.
But there's nothing to say that Nintendo knew or this or bothered to care...

Edited by mmmmm_PIE, 17 November 2006 - 10:12 AM.

[Vimes]

Keep in mind that it is impossible to change events that have happened by going back in time- the same thing will happen each time. So, we know that OoT and MM both definitely happened.

I don't need to travel through time to see how it works. No, I'm using logic. Example:

Little Billy is killed. Little Bob goes back in time to prevent this, but as he has already witnessed Little Billy dying, then it is inevitable that his attempt to change this event will fail.

Not nesscesarily. I said "rolling back"... Little Bob rolls back time to before Little Billy is killed.

That isn't the point anyway - If Ganon is trapped in the Sacred Realm because of what Link did to him in the now "erased" future, then he cannot return in the present. It's as simple as that.

[LionHarted]

If Ganon is trapped in the Sacred Realm because of what Link did to him in the now "erased" future, then he cannot return in the present. It's as simple as that.

Ganon is not trapped in the Sacred Realm if the act of trapping him is erased.

Similarly, Ganon is not sealed if the act of sealing him did not take place (as in a split timeline)--Ganon is not sealed in the Child timeline because the act of sealing him did not take place in that timeline (this is the same principle that says that the Adult events will not take place in the Child timeline).

Edited by LionHarted, 17 November 2006 - 12:38 PM.

[Arturo]

Ganon is not trapped in the Sacred Realm if the act of trapping him is erased.

Similarly, Ganon is not sealed if the act of sealing him did not take place (as in a split timeline)--Ganon is not sealed in the Child timeline because the act of sealing him did not take place in that timeline (this is the same principle that says that the Adult events will not take place in the Child timeline).

Unless the act of creating the seal trascends both timelines