114 replies to this topic

[spunky-monkey]

And that's not a plot hole anyway. A plot hole is a designer's oversight that causes the game to contradict itself. TWW has none of those, but your beloved OoT has plenty.

You mustn't forget that TWW follows after OoT. But with its weak plot has many times contradicted itself not to mention the storylines of Ocarina and ALttP as well, it didn't correct inconsistencies in the timelines by rejoining the parallel Hyrules, instead they ignored them or tried to blow details out of proportion, failing miserably to explain what happened to the Kingdom/Royal Family after HoT left, the Triforce parts and that so-called 'seal' on Ganon's power when you retrieve the Master Sword.

Of course it did! They were the ones who told the Hylians to forge it in the first place! They are the ones who send a Hero with the power to wield it whenever evil strikes!

If you've played your games you'll know in ALttP the Master Sword was made as a 'failsafe' should an evil person seize the Triforce. It's so powerful that it can repel the Triforce's own magic. Gods had nothing to do with it, meaning the guys who did Wind Waker's story screwed up.

Except it's not.

As much as I love the hostility coming from you for simply criticizing a dumb theory that's completely oblivious to time paradoxes, the sheer thought that OoT doesn't compare to WW is too much to bear.

Adieu.

[LionHarted]

You mustn't forget that TWW follows after OoT. But with its weak plot has many times contradicted itself not to mention the storylines of Ocarina and ALttP as well, it didn't correct inconsistencies in the timelines by rejoining the parallel Hyrules, instead they ignored them or tried to blow details out of proportion, failing miserably to explain what happened to the Kingdom/Royal Family after HoT left, the Triforce parts and that so-called 'seal' on Ganon's power when you retrieve the Master Sword.

TWW doesn't contradict itself.

You just don't get it. =/

If you've played your games you'll know in ALttP the Master Sword was made as a 'failsafe' should an evil person seize the Triforce. It's so powerful that it can repel the Triforce's own magic. Gods had nothing to do with it, meaning the guys who did Wind Waker's story screwed up.

I'm kind of curious why you think you know more than the story directors.

As much as I love the hostility coming from you for simply criticizing a dumb theory that's completely oblivious to time paradoxes, the sheer thought that OoT doesn't compare to WW is too much to bear.

He was responding to your attitude that OOT IS TEH GREATEST and TWW IS TEH SUXXORZ.

[Hero of Legend]

You mustn't forget that TWW follows after OoT.

Nah, I recon that's a plot hole.

But with its weak plot has many times contradicted itself

Examples?

not to mention the storylines of Ocarina and ALttP as well

Not any more than they already contradicted each other. OoT, for instance, said the Triforce would split if an evil person touched it, which makes zero sense with ALttP. How lovely hypocritical of you!

it didn't correct inconsistencies in the timelines by rejoining the parallel Hyrules, instead they ignored them

That might be because the "parallel Hyrules" you made up never existed in the first place.

or tried to blow details out of proportion

Like?

failing miserably to explain what happened to the Kingdom/Royal Family after HoT left

They never tried to explain it. And know what? There's nothing wrong with that.

the Triforce parts

They were shattered and hidden after the HoT left. What's so hard to understand about that?

and that so-called 'seal' on Ganon's power when you retrieve the Master Sword.

The Gods made it, and they used the Master Sword as the key. This is stated.

If you've played your games you'll know in ALttP the Master Sword was made as a 'failsafe' should an evil person seize the Triforce. It's so powerful that it can repel the Triforce's own magic. Gods had nothing to do with it, meaning the guys who did Wind Waker's story screwed up.

You'll also know the Gods were the ones who ordered the Hylians to make it, and that's its powers are of divine origin.

And for the record, TWW is the only game in which the Master Sword abides by the same rules as it did in ALttP, requiring a Hero to wield it in order to unlock its power. But then, why would you care? TWW sucks anyway.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 18 November 2006 - 12:57 PM.

[Alardonin]

You'll also know the Gods were the ones who ordered the Hylians to make it, and that's its powers are of divine origin.

And for the record, TWW is the only game in which the Master Sword abides by the same rules as it did in ALttP, requiring a Hero to wield it in order to unlock its power. But then, why would you care? TWW sucks anyway.

Sorry i haven't picked up on all of the discussion, so i could be taking this out of context, but i think i got it and i have to say that you both can be correct on this. There is just no more amount of proof from any of the perspectives(at least that i am aware of). If in any case there is, i wouldn't mind knowing it actually.

I really have [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of theories on this, but there is one that i usually stick to. There are also clues that might tell us, that the reason for the creation of the Master Sword was do to some kind of prophecy that ocurred in the past, but to put it all down, its really only just a theory, more like a fanfiction if you will, so i will spare you of that .

Also, just to point out the weak reference of the Master Sword by Ricky and your second Paragraph from above, there is a moment in OOT that might desprove, what both of you said. I'm not really in the mood to write some theories about it , but that moment was when the Master Sword shined in Links hand, before the final blow....

[SOAP]

The only reason the Master Sword was "miserably weak" was because it was being used to keep Ganon's Triforce powers locked in Hyrule perpetually for hundreds of years, which drained it's powers considerably. And even then, Ganon's powers were still locked until the moment Link pulled out the sword. If anything it shows the Master Sword is [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] stronger than any other game has shown before. It locked an ENTIRE Kingdom in Time for hundreds of years! Which other game has the Master Sword do that?

Edited by SOAP, 18 November 2006 - 08:59 PM.

[Raien]

The only reason the Master Sword was "miserably weak" was because it was being used to keep Ganon's Triforce powers locked in Hyrule perpetually for hundreds of years, which drained it's powers considerably. And even then, Ganon's powers were still locked until the moment Link pulled out the sword. If anything it shows the Master Sword is [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] stronger than any other game has shown before. It locked an ENTIRE Kingdom in Time for hundreds of years! Which other game has the Master Sword do that?

I'm sorry, has this become a joke topic?

The Master Sword had lost the power it once had because Ganondorf killed the Sages that prayed for it to maintain that power.

Also, only the Hero of Time could pull out the Master Sword in OoT. The connection between the Hero and the Master Sword remains in every game where they appear.

Edited by jhurvid, 19 November 2006 - 10:53 AM.

[LionHarted]

The Master Sword had lost the power it once had because Ganondorf killed the Sages that prayed for it to maintain that power.

More accurately, he killed the Sages who "infused the blade with the gods' power." i.e., the descendants of the Ancient Sages. This next part should make you happy, jhurvid:

"...the blade of evil's bane... was crafted by the wisdom of the ancient sages."

[Arturo]

More accurately, he killed the Sages who "infused the blade with the gods' power." i.e., the descendants of the Ancient Sages. This next part should make you happy, jhurvid:

"...the blade of evil's bane... was crafted by the wisdom of the ancient sages."

You made that up, Lionharted. There is no proof of the ancient Sages having made the Master Sword. That is disproved by ALttP Manual and OoT (where they only claim to have buiolt the Temple of Time).

[coinilius]

Hmm, where did that quote come from Lionharted? It doesn't seem familiar to me, but unlike Artuto I won't automatically assume you made it up - can you provide a reference for where it comes from?

[LionHarted]

*****BEWARE--HUGE SPOILERS AHEAD!!! QUOTES FROM IN-GAME!!!*****

Hmm, where did that quote come from Lionharted? It doesn't seem familiar to me, but unlike Artuto I won't automatically assume you made it up - can you provide a reference for where it comes from?

I'm insulted that Arturo would even suspect that I'd make something up. =/

I got the quote from Twilight Princess. The game, itself. Along with all these (thanks to TSA at TheHylia.com for posting the videos):


I'll save my commentary for another time. Transcribing all these took forever.







****THIS IS YOUR LAST WARNING****














Ordon Village – Introduction

Rusl:
“Tell me… Do you ever feel a strange sadness as dusk falls? They say it’s the only time when our world intersects with theirs… The only time we can feel the lingering regrets of spirits who have left our world. That is why loneliness always pervades the hour of twilight…
“But enough talk of sadness… I have a favor to ask of you, Link. I was supposed to deliver something to the royal family of Hyrule the day after tomorrow. Yes, it was a task set to me by the mayor, but… would you go in my stead?
“You have… never been to Hyrule, right? In the Kingdom of Hyrule there is a great castle, and around it is Castle Town, a community far bigger than our little village… and far bigger than Hyrule is the rest of the world that the gods created. You should look upon it all with your own eyes.
“It is getting late… We should head back to the village… I will talk to the mayor about this matter.”

Yelling Man:
“Hey, Link! You there?!
“Hey, you mind helpin’ me herd the goats? They ain’t listenin’ to me lately!
“Hey, where’s Epona?”


Goron Mines

Midna:
“Zant. That’s the name of the King of Darkness who cast this pall of shadows over your world. He’s very strong. You would be nothing to him in your current state. But Zant will never be my king! I have nothing but scorn for his supposed strength. Not that your Zelda is much better…
“It still appalls me that this world of light is controlled by that princess. A carefree youth, a life of luxury… How does that teach duty?
“…But I guess I shouldn’t begrudge her for the circumstances of her life. She didn’t choose it, after all. And I would never wish harm on her… No, as long as I can get my hands on the Fused Shadows, I’ll be just fine.
“Well, just one more left. Shall we? Eee hee hee!”

Fyrus:
“Ungh, uhh… Hmm? What am I doing here? Unngh… My head, it aches…”


Kakariko Village – After Clearing Goron Mines

Spirit of Light (don't know its name, sorry):
“Heroic Link… North of here, across the plain and past the great stone bridge, in the lands guarded by the spirit Lanayru… You shall find one who you seek…”

Colin:
“Link…
“Ilia… You’ve got to save Ilia! Those monsters left me with the other kids, but they must have taken her somewhere else! Whenever I thought I couldn’t go on, I would think of you and Ilia and hold on, Link… See? I… I’m fine now. Remember what I told you back in Ordon, Link? ‘When I grow up, I’m going to be just like you, Link!’ So you don’t have to worry about me anymore! Go help Ilia!”

Kakariko Chief:
“Leave the children to me. I will watch over them, I swear it. Do not let their fates trouble you. Go to those who need you. In Hyrule, countless tales are told of the ancient hero… and your deeds bring them all to mind. May the grace of the great goddesses who shaped Hyrule bear you on your way.”


Lanayru’s Spring

Lanayru, Spirit of Light:
“You must know that it was the will of the goddesses that we lock away the forbidden power…
“When all was chaos, the goddesses descended and gave order and life to the world. They granted power equally to all who dwelt in the light, and then returned to the heavens. The lands where the goddesses descended came to be known as the Sacred Realm. For ages, the people lived at ease, content in mind and body…
“But soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread through Hyrule, and a great battle ensued…
“Among those living in the light, interlopers who excelled at magic appeared. Wielding powerful sorcery, they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm. It was then that the goddesses ordered us three light spirits to intervene. We sealed away the great magic those individuals had mastered.
“You know this magic… It is the dark power you seek… the Fused Shadow. O hero chosen by the goddesses… Beware… Those who do not know the danger of wielding power will, before long, be ruled by it. Never forget that…
“The dark power that you seek is within the sleeping Lakebed Temple in Lake Hylia…”


Lanayru’s Spring – After Clearing the Lakebed Temple

Midna:
“Zant!”

Zant:
[-steals the Fused Shadows from Midna-]
“Did you honestly mean to take an ancient and withered power like this and turn it against me? You are a foolish traitor, Midna. Why do you defy your king?”

Midna:
“My KING? You, who do nothing but abuse the magic of your tribe? You must be joking!”

Zant:
“How dare you?! Are you implying that my power is… our old magic? Now THAT is a joke! This power is granted to me by my god! It is the magic of the King of Twilight, and you WILL respect it!
[-Zant casts a spell on Link-]
[-Midna goes to help Link-]
“My Midna… Did you forget? That beast is one of the light dwellers who oppressed our people. No matter how much you may desire otherwise, you will never be more than a shadow in their world. You cannot consort with their kind! But if we can make their world ours, Midna… light and darkness will meet at last. Our tribe will take back their realm… and sweet darkness will blot out this harsh light!
“And that, Midna, is why…
“I need you.
“Not just for me, but for all of our people… lend me your power."
[-Midna goes back to help Link-]
“So be it… I will return you to the light world you covet!"

Lanayru:
“Link, hero chosen by the goddesses… Go to the princess locked away in the castle. That princess holds the key that can unlock you from your shadow form…”


Hyrule Castle Tower – The Sacrifice

Midna:
“Please… Please tell me… How do we break… the curse on this one? This… is the one… You need him… to save your world!
“That’s why… Princess… please… You must help Link…”

Zelda:
[-tries to dispel the spell with the Triforce of Wisdom-]
“What binds him is a different magic than what transformed him when he first passed the curtain of twilight. It is an evil power. Our world is one of balance… Just as there is light to drive away darkness, so, too, is there benevolence to banish evil. Head for the sacred grove that lies deep within the lands guarded by the spirit Faron. There you will find the blade of evil’s bane that was crafted by the wisdom of the ancient sages… the Master Sword. The Master Sword is a sacred blade that evil can never touch. Evil cloaks you like a dark veil… and that blade is the only thing that can cleave it.
“Link… hero sent by the goddesses… Like you, I have been granted special powers by the goddesses…”
[-Zelda shows Link the Triforce of Wisdom-]

Midna:
“Fine… Link… You can… You can get to the woods… on your own, right?
“Princess… I have one last request… Can you tell him… where to find the Mirror of Twilight?”

Zelda:
“Midna… I believe I understand now just who and what you are… Despite your mortal injuries, you act in our stead… These dark times are the result of our deeds, yet it is you who has reaped the penalty. Accept this now, Midna. I pass it to you…”
[-gives Midna the Triforce piece-?]

Midna:
“No! Link! Stop her!
“We go back, Link! Back to Faron Woods!
“Zelda… I’ve taken all that you had to give… though I did not want it.”


Faron Woods – Getting the Master Sword

Sentinel:
“Go now to the sacred place, beast… We yield passage to the Sacred Grove…”

Midna:
“The sword accepted you as its master…
“This thing is the embodiment of the evil magic that Zant cast on you. It’s definitely different than our tribe’s shadow magic… Careful… if you touch it, you’ll turn back into a beast! This thing is too dangerous… It’s probably for the best if we just leave it here, huh? But, on the other hand, if we kept it, you’d be able to transform into a beast anytime you wanted… Yes, since Zant was kind enough to give this to us, we should be thankful and use it all we can!
“If you need it, just call me. I want to keep a low profile, so I’ll just hide in your shadow whenever you’re human, but I can change you whenever. You can be a wolf anytime you like!
“Hey, but listen, Link… I’ve got a little favor to ask… Would you mind coming with me to find something called the Mirror of Twilight? It’s hidden somewhere in Hyrule… Yes, the Mirror of Twilight… Our last potential link to Zant!"


Lake Hylia – To the Desert

Auru:
“Master Link, is it? Please forgive my rudeness in the bar the other day. You do know Telma, don’t you? I am Auru. I am part of the group that Telma kindly allows to meet at her bar. I have heard all about your deeds from her.
“Now… You being a courageous youth… You have likely heard of the strange events in the desert and come to investigate, no? Or am I mistaken? You do know, don’t you, Master Link? The Gerudo Desert once held a prison built to hold the worst criminals this land has ever known… The criminals who were sentenced to death were sent directly to the underworld by a cursed mirror that was kept in the prison… Now that prison is condemned, and even the road leading to the desert is impassable.
“The desert at world’s end… It still holds the cursed mirror and the malice of its doomed inmates… Those old bones know that the evil currently plaguing Hyrule is related to this wicked place. So I have come to learn the truth…
“Master Link, I must ask… What will you do now? Don’t tell me you plan to enter the desert and confirm my suspicions with your own eyes?!”
[-Link answers “yes”-]
“Ah, is that so? Then let good old Auru help you out… You see Lake Hylia below us? A man named Fyer runs an amusement ride of sorts there. Give him this.
[-Link receives a letter to Fyer-]
“See, long ago, I saved this man Fyer’s life, and now he cannot refuse me if I ask a favor. If you leave the rest up to Fyer, all should go well.”


Gerudo Desert

Midna:
“Wait, Link. Before we go on, there’s something I want you to hear.
“…Do you remember what the spirit said about the Fused Shadows? What do you think happened to the magic wielders who tried to rule the Sacred Realm? They were banished. They were chased across the sacred lands of Hyrule and driven into another realm by the goddesses.
“It was another world entirely… The antithesis of Hyrule, where the sun shines bright. Its denizens became shadows that could not mingle with the light. Eventually, most came to call it the Twilight Realm, and from it, none could return to the world of light… They were forever doomed to live in the twilight, flitting in the half-light of dusk, mere shadows of Hyrule…
“This is the history of the Twili as it has been passed down from our ancestors… Do you now understand what I am? I’m a descendant of the tribe that was banished to the Twilight Realm!
“It was a peaceful place… until Zant took control of the Twilight Realm and transformed all the Twili into shadow beasts. It’s clear to me now that he somehow gained a great evil power previously unknown to our tribe… In any case, I was sent from there, and I could no longer get into the Twilight Realm without his power.
“…But there’s another tale told by my people. Though the goddesses forbade us to return to the world of light, they left one link between the light and the darkness. Something called the Mirror of Twilight was passed to the protectors of Hyrule… It’s our only path to the Twilight Realm, and we must get there!
“You’ll come with me… won’t you?”















*END SPOILERS*

Edited by LionHarted, 19 November 2006 - 08:29 PM.

[coinilius]

I figured it was probably from TP, since I didn't recognise it from any of the other games

[Alardonin]

OMG my innocent eyes..... Such a huge quantity of spoilers. How can i argue with that sentence, if all of that text could prove me wrong.....

[LionHarted]

Not all of it deals with the sentence I was supporting. But, yeah.

[Alardonin]

Not all of it deals with the sentence I was supporting. But, yeah.

Hmm i could...... Hold it i guess.... I'll find out, when i get the game.

[coinilius]

Hmm i could...... Hold it i guess.... I'll find out, when i get the game.

Simply put, the line Lionharted quoted earlier is in that section of spoilers.

[LionHarted]

Would I get lynched for saying that this game proves the single timeline outright?

Even just from what I've seen so far, FSA has to take place after TWW.

Edited by LionHarted, 19 November 2006 - 10:04 PM.

[coinilius]

Would I get lynched for saying that this game proves the single timeline outright?

Even just from what I've seen so far, FSA has to take place after TWW.

There certainly seems to be a lot of connections between TP and the FS series of games...

[LionHarted]

There certainly seems to be a lot of connections between TP and the FS series of games...

lol, they even mention TMC's Wind Tribe.

[coinilius]

*SPOILERS*

lol, they even mention TMC's Wind Tribe.

Yeah, I was thinking of that one as well... although I don't know if that really is a reference to the Wind Tribe or not, but it's certainly along similar lines.

Edited by coinilius, 19 November 2006 - 10:25 PM.

[LionHarted]

*SPOILERS*
Yeah, I was thinking of that one as well... although I don't know if that really is a reference to the Wind Tribe or not, but it's certainly along similar lines.

Compare:
"In this tower dwell the people of the
Wind Tribe.
We left your surface world long ago to
serve a greater duty."

to

"According to legend, long ago there was a race even closer to the gods, and some say THESE creatures made the Hylians. When they created the people of Hylia, they simultaneously created a new capital, a city that floated in the heavens. They dwelt there... and some scholars believe that this race lives there still, somewhere in the great sky."

and guess what my conclusion is.

[coinilius]

Well yes, I know they are incredibly similar and 1 + 1 should eqaul 2... I just don't want to commit myself to the idea that they are going to be the same until after I've seen a little more evidence.

Edited by coinilius, 20 November 2006 - 06:11 PM.

[SOAP]

Oh! There goes my theory taht the Wind Tribe are related to the Gerudo...

[coinilius]

Also of note, TSA has changed his mind about the split-timeline being made redundant by TP...

[SOAP]

Augh! He's toying with us now....

[Hero of Winds]

Against my better (read: all) of my judgement, I decided to spoil the ending myself. And quite frankly... I'm not disappointed at myself for doing so. For being a mainstream Zelda title (i.e. not a sidestory like MM or LA), this game's story is really disappointing, especially compared to TWW.

First impressions: this game is going to be near impossible to reconcile in a single timeline, especially if you try to place it between OoT and TWW. In fact, there is virtually no transition between OoT's adult ending and TP, nor is there any transition from TP to TWW.

I kind of hate to say it, but I think this game proves the split timeline theory more than ever, with TP following OoT's child ending and TWW following OoT's adult ending. I think, right now, that's the most plausible theory.

[coinilius]

Augh! He's toying with us now....

Well, I think it's more because there were some twists to the game that he hadn't encountered when he made the comment about the split-timeline being impossible...

I kind of hate to say it, but I think this game proves the split timeline theory more than ever, with TP following OoT's child ending and TWW following OoT's adult ending. I think, right now, that's the most plausible theory.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well - I haven't spoiled the ending for myself, but did pick up that there wasn't the transition to TWW that TSA was expecting.

Edited by coinilius, 20 November 2006 - 06:50 PM.

[LionHarted]

I kind of hate to say it, but I think this game proves the split timeline theory more than ever, with TP following OoT's child ending and TWW following OoT's adult ending. I think, right now, that's the most plausible theory.

This game pretty much destroys the idea of a timeline itself fairly completely by crushing any connections between TP and... anything. With Ganon dead, it is impossible for TP to be placed in the Child timeline, or at least one that includes ALttP as succeeding directly from OoT and featuring the same Ganon. With the Mirror "utterly destroyed", it is fairly impossible to place FSA after TP at all, and the same inconsistencies apply between it and TWW that apply between it and ALttP.

EDIT: Then again, this game suffers TMC syndrome--it kills off a villain who is undoubtedly featured again later in a future game's backstory (TWW, or, in some splits, ALttP)--so a sequel could easily remedy everything.

But won't, if this trend of fixing-then-destroying the timeline continues.

Edited by LionHarted, 20 November 2006 - 08:09 PM.

[Vertiboy]

With the Mirror "utterly destroyed", it is fairly impossible to place FSA after TP at all, and the same inconsistencies apply between it and TWW that apply between it and ALttP.

The mirror on TP is the Mirror of Twilight. The mirror on FSA is the Dark Mirror. The former leads to the Twilight Realm, and the latter "reveals the wickedness within a person and brings it to life. (-White Maiden, FSA)"

Edited by Vertiboy, 20 November 2006 - 08:11 PM.

[SOAP]

I'm not too worried. TWW talks of Ganon rising from the "depth of the earth." I take that as Ganon coming back from the dead. Though, in a split timeline, with TP in the child timeline, I'd put Loz and AoL next. I'd have to play the game first before I go any further than that but this may in fact support the Miyamoto Order.

[coinilius]

The mirror on TP is the Mirror of Twilight. The mirror on FSA is the Dark Mirror. The former leads to the Twilight Realm, and the latter "reveals the wickedness within a person and brings it to life. (-White Maiden, FSA)"

The Dark Mirror was also a prison for a dark tribe:

In the heart of the forest is a temple. The Dark Mirror can be found there.

Long ago, a dark tribe invaded Hyrule.

They were defeated and imprisoned within the mirror.

The tribe's mirror prison was then secreted away and hidden in the forest temple to sever its connection to this world.

That Dark Mirror must never fall into the hands of those with evil hearts.