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#61 Fyxe

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 04:33 PM

In response to 'Question 3', I just want to say that I'm surprised that people still don't realise that the backstory of ALttP is still legend. It doesn't have all the details. When you look at the similarities, the backstory of ALttP gets almost all the details of OoT accurate, except for a few very minor issues.

The Sages DID have to search for the Master Sword. Before the Sacred Realm was opened, the only active sage was Zelda, although she wasn't exactly a sage then. Zelda did not know where the Master Sword was. Nobody seemed to realise it was in the Temple of Time.

However, I totally disagree with FSA following on from OoT, for the reasons all your questions have brought up. And more reasons besides all that.

It's nuts. There's no evidence suggesting that it follows on from OoT, yet there is more evidence suggesting it doesn't, so WHY argue it at all?

Even if there WAS no evidence suggesting it doesn't, there's no basis for it at all.

#62 Hero of Legend

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 05:28 PM

I give up on arguing with you mohammedali. You change in-game facts before you change your opinion. Thus, it is pointless to debate with you and I won't waste my time and energy doing it.

But I do have one question: If FSA follows a few months after OoT, how come the Deku Scrubs are REVIVED in FSA? In OoT they are alive and well, and more importantly, they are an independent race with no connection to Ganondorf. Yet, in FSA they say that Ganon is their master who awakened them from their slumber. And the people of Hyrule do not even know what they are. What do you say about the return of a race that was never gone?

Oh yeah, go right ahead and IGNORE it like everything else. Make up some farfetched explanation that has no support in facts. Because it is impossible that the people forget Ganon in the same way as they forget Link. Bah.

The Sages DID have to search for the Master Sword. Before the Sacred Realm was opened, the only active sage was Zelda, although she wasn't exactly a sage then. Zelda did not know where the Master Sword was. Nobody seemed to realise it was in the Temple of Time.


Um... The Sages never looked for the MS in OoT. Zelda did not look for the MS because she had no intention on finding it, and she knew that Link had it after Ganondorf got the Triforce (She says so). Rauru knew where the MS was all along. And the other Sages didn't even know that they were Sages.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 16 December 2005 - 05:34 PM.


#63 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 05:28 PM

(Fyxe) In response to 'Question 3', I just want to say that I'm surprised that people still don't realise that the backstory of ALttP is still legend. It doesn't have all the details. When you look at the similarities, the backstory of ALttP gets almost all the details of OoT accurate, except for a few very minor issues.

The Sages DID have to search for the Master Sword. Before the Sacred Realm was opened, the only active sage was Zelda, although she wasn't exactly a sage then. Zelda did not know where the Master Sword was. Nobody seemed to realise it was in the Temple of Time.

Actually they didn't have to search for it. Keep in mind, Rauru is an ancient sage who resides inside the Chamber of Time. So he knows about the MS. As for Zelda's knowledge of it...she knew as well. Why do you think she apologized to Link about tampering with the Sacred Realm at the end of OOT? She led Link to the Temple of Time so that he may pull the MS to stop Ganon. However, her plan wasn't that peachie.

Also, the Jap version suddenly goes into the situation being to urgent, suggesting a hero or the sword were not found. This also adds up to why the hero is not mentioned in the sealing of Ganon, but rather only the knights and sages. In addition to that, the MS at the time of aLttP is still is in an unknown location until Link figures out the puzzle to find it. This also helps to confirm the MS was not found at the time of the IW--it just adds up to what was said in the IW story: 1) too 'urgent' to find a hero and the MS 2) the MS and hero not being mentioned as helping in the sealing of Ganon 3) the sages at the time of aLttP don't even know the MS's exact location. Also, the TWW BS is legend as well, but at least it mentions the hero as being involved with the sealing of Ganon.

However, I totally disagree with FSA following on from OoT, for the reasons all your questions have brought up. And more reasons besides all that.

It's nuts. There's no evidence suggesting that it follows on from OoT, yet there is more evidence suggesting it doesn't,


Thank you for seeing the light.

Edited by Tri-Enforcer, 16 December 2005 - 05:49 PM.


#64 Fyxe

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 07:33 PM

Seeing the light? I never agreed with the concept in the first place.

And why are you guys suddenly experts on Rauru all of a sudden? We know virtually nothing about him. We don't know where he comes from, what he's been doing, whether he showed up AFTER the entrance was opened or was there before.

The fact is, the differences between ALttP's backstory and OoT's story are extremely minor, and, if you argue that the Imprisoning War is not OoT, then you're arguing that almost *identical* events to OoT occured sometime after OoT, and fitting those into the timeline without falling into plotholes is far more fraught with inconsitencies.

Oh, and Tri-Enforcer, the Master Sword in ALttP is NOT in an unknown location, that is just plainly wrong. Sahasrahla and his wife know where it is, and I think some other characters mention it being in the Lost Woods too.

Edited by Fyxe, 16 December 2005 - 07:35 PM.


#65 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 12:40 AM

And why are you guys suddenly experts on Rauru all of a sudden? We know virtually nothing about him. We don't know where he comes from, what he's been doing, whether he showed up AFTER the entrance was opened or was there before.

Well he announced himself as an ancient sage and then goes on to say 'we ancient sages' as if he were amongst the ancient sages that built the temple of time. He also, knows that the MS is the final key that opens the gateway to the Sacred Realm. I think it's plausible that a sage who helped to build the Temple of Time would already know about the whereabouts of the MS--he built the place that houses and uses the Master Sword!!!! Makes sense to me.

I am Rauru, one of the ancient Sages...
Ages ago, we ancient Sages built the Temple of Time to protect the entrance to the Sacred Realm...
This is the Chamber of Sages, inside the Temple of Light...
The Temple of Light, situated in the very center of the Sacred Realm, is the last stronghold against Ganondorf's evil forces.
The Master Sword--the evil-destroying sword that you pulled out of the Pedestal of Time--was the final key to the Sacred Realm.



#66 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 02:00 PM

Also, while it's on my mind, Tri-Enforcer, and everyone else, please cease using the term "Jap" because it racially offends me. Two letters is not going to kill you.

#67 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 04:23 PM

Also, while it's on my mind, Tri-Enforcer, and everyone else, please cease using the term "Jap" because it racially offends me. Two letters is not going to kill you.


Oh sorry about that, I didn't mean anything by it. I was actually using that country's abbreviated form. Again I apologize.

#68 Hero of Legend

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 05:05 PM

The fact is, the differences between ALttP's backstory and OoT's story are extremely minor, and, if you argue that the Imprisoning War is not OoT, then you're arguing that almost *identical* events to OoT occured sometime after OoT, and fitting those into the timeline without falling into plotholes is far more fraught with inconsitencies.


To my knowledge, the events of FSA have already occurred. No, I'm not saying that it is the IW, but it is definitely almost identical to OoT/the IW. Also, FSA does indeed seem to be connected to the IW. Why else would Nintendo bother making certain parts of the game an even better match to the IW legend than OoT? Besides, if Ganon can become the King of Darkness, take over the Dark World, fight the Knights of Hyrule, and become sealed by seven "Sages" twice it can damn well happen a third time.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 17 December 2005 - 05:08 PM.


#69 mohammedali

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 08:50 AM

Question #1 earlier in OOT when Link and Zelda first met, Zelda gives you all sorts of info about Ganondorf and who he is (and also later in the future). She tells Link everything with the exception of him being an ancient demon reborn--which is what she says about Ganon in FSA, but not in OOT. I know things will happen differently and all, but both timelines still share the same past and that doesn't change who Ganondorf once was in that shared past.

She says she has a bad feeling about him, and that although he says he is loyal to Hyrule, she doesn't trust him.

Question #2) You still have not offered a solid canon source supporting that when Link returns to the past, he won't remember anything about the alternate future. Through out OOT, when Link is going between past and future, Link still remembers what he has to do. How could he complete certain dungeons that required for him to use ideas he learned in the future if he didn't remember? Also, if Link doesn't remember anything he's still going to make the same mistake, which will allow Ganon into the Sacred Realm-again. The reason I bring this issue up is due to your speculation of FSA occuring a little after child Link returns to the past. Link would've known about Ganon and what he was up to once he saw Dark Link at the beginning of FSA. Especially since Adult Link fought against Dark Link, who was the boss of the water temple level, in the alternate future. In FSA...Link knows nothing about Ganon. Once again, it is absolute fanfic to suggest that Link remembers nothing when he goes back into the past.

I know it's fanfic, but I'm suggesting that the difference here is that because Zelda sent him back in time instread of the MS like before, it had an effect on his memory so that he could live like a happy go lucky child without the memories of the alternate future.

Question #3) The above quote was taken from the Japanese version of the IW. You know...the version many of you love so much. Like the American version, it says the sages had to search for a hero. However, the American version doesn't mention that the sages had to search for the Master Sword's existence--only the Jap version mentions this. I don't recall the sages needing to search for the MS in OOT. Zelda (who's also a sage) and Rauru (the sage of light) knew of the Master Sword's whereabouts.

I think Fyxe already answered this question.

Question #4) If Ganon had the Triforce at the time of FSA, then Zelda would've known along with the maidens (who are traditionally sage descendants). In OOT, when the Triforce was breached, Zelda said that a voice from the Sacred Realm reaches out to the sages when evil threatens it. However this is not the case in FSA--why? This is because Ganon does not have the Triforce in FSA. Like I said before people, espcially the sages, knew the source of Ganon's power at the time of the IW.

My point was that FSA doesn't talk about the Triforce even though they may know that Ganondorf has it. I was thinking of a more complex idea, but as I haven't played the game, I'm not sure if it will work. For now I'm happy to say that FSA simply doens't show any discussion on the Triforce even if Zelda knows that Ganondorf has it. I may be wrong for some reason and need to rework the idea, but I'm just theorising at present.

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#70 mohammedali

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 09:10 AM

I give up on arguing with you mohammedali. You change in-game facts before you change your opinion. Thus, it is pointless to debate with you and I won't waste my time and energy doing it.

When have I changed the ingame facts? I'm suggesting a theory and I will keep changing it till it either works or is disproven. Surely that's fair enough. I haven't even placed FSA straight after OoT child in my timeline yet, which is why I'm talking to you lot about it. I placed FSA after OoT Child because it makes the most sense to me. I've suggested theories before, some I still defend, some I've ruled out - that's what we do here right?

But I do have one question: If FSA follows a few months after OoT, how come the Deku Scrubs are REVIVED in FSA? In OoT they are alive and well, and more importantly, they are an independent race with no connection to Ganondorf. Yet, in FSA they say that Ganon is their master who awakened them from their slumber. And the people of Hyrule do not even know what they are. What do you say about the return of a race that was never gone?

I can't find the quote that says the Deku Scrubs were revived. The closest I could find was Ganon woke them from their slumber which is very different. Post the revived quote so I can see it in context.

Oh yeah, go right ahead and IGNORE it like everything else. Make up some farfetched explanation that has no support in facts. Because it is impossible that the people forget Ganon in the same way as they forget Link. Bah.

Tell me, what is the point in posting a question if you already have a pre-emptive answer to my responce? I'm simply suggesting a theory. Some people like the theory, some people don't. I'm not convinced it's impossible yet. I do doubt the theory, which is why I've put it here for scruitiny.

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#71 Fatgoron

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 01:53 PM

Also, while it's on my mind, Tri-Enforcer, and everyone else, please cease using the term "Jap" because it racially offends me. Two letters is not going to kill you.

Is this a joke, or are you serious. It's occasionally hard to tell with you, and it sounds like the kind of thing that might use triplespresso's comment as a springboard.
(Just making sure, so I know wether or not to ask if it's ok to start calling it the "nip version" :P )

#72 Fyxe

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 06:08 PM

To my knowledge, the events of FSA have already occurred. No, I'm not saying that it is the IW, but it is definitely almost identical to OoT/the IW.


Actually, not really. FSA lacks some rather vital issues... For instance, the TRIFORCE. Secondly, Ganon being IMPRISONED in the Sacred Realm. He was sealed in the Four Sword. Very different. Thirdly, it also lacks the Master Sword and anyone looking to use the Master Sword or even a mention of the Master Sword.

Oh, it also lacks seven sages.

What does it have that makes it similar to the Imprisoning War? Four Knights of Hyrule and Ganon. That's all.

Also, FSA does indeed seem to be connected to the IW. Why else would Nintendo bother making certain parts of the game an even better match to the IW legend than OoT?

How does ANY of it match the Imprisoning War better than OoT?

Besides, if Ganon can become the King of Darkness, take over the Dark World, fight the Knights of Hyrule, and become sealed by seven "Sages" twice it can damn well happen a third time.


Ganon was sealed by Link and Zelda and the Four Sword. He was not sealed by the 'sages', who aren't sages at all, they're maidens and are never called sages.

Ganon has always been the King of Darkness.

The Dark World is very different in FSA; the major difference being that people's forms do not change when they enter it.

#73 Hero of Legend

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 10:04 AM

When have I changed the ingame facts?


Well, perhaps you mix the facts with your own fan fiction and made up rules rather than actually change them. Some examples:

1. FSA cannot be after OoT because Ganon can never be forgotten.
2. There are two Kings in AoL's BS.
3. TWW isn't really connected to OoT, Nintendo just wanted to mention a game that everyone knew about.

None of these things are even hinted at in the games, yet you still argue them as if they were fact. Such arguments hold no power over theories supported by evidence.

I'm suggesting a theory and I will keep changing it till it either works or is disproven. Surely that's fair enough. I haven't even placed FSA straight after OoT child in my timeline yet, which is why I'm talking to you lot about it. I placed FSA after OoT Child because it makes the most sense to me. I've suggested theories before, some I still defend, some I've ruled out - that's what we do here right?

Yes, theories are of course acceptable. However, you need some kind of evidence that supports their validity. You have none in this case.

I can't find the quote that says the Deku Scrubs were revived. The closest I could find was Ganon woke them from their slumber which is very different. Post the revived quote so I can see it in context.


... To my knowledge you cannot be awakened from a slumber without being revived. Besides, it doesn't matter. The stories still do not match. Unless you somehow say that the Deku Scrubs were asleep during OoT? For some reason I doubt that.

Tell me, what is the point in posting a question if you already have a pre-emptive answer to my responce?

But I was not wrong, was I? You didn't answer my question, you only asked me for totally irrelevant evidence. It is just like when you said that "King = Guardian" because Ganondorf named himself King in OoT. That is despite that fact that Nabooru says that he was destined to be their King, whether the Gerudo liked it or not. Or when you said that Ganondorf did not become the King of Darkness FSA even though it was written on an ancient stone panel, meaning that the ones who wrote it KNEW that the person who got the Trident was the King of Darkness, resulting in the logical conclusion that the Trident had the power to make it's wielder into the King of Darkness. There is no other way they could have known.

I'm simply suggesting a theory. Some people like the theory, some people don't. I'm not convinced it's impossible yet. I do doubt the theory, which is why I've put it here for scruitiny.


Okay then.

Actually, not really. FSA lacks some rather vital issues... For instance, the TRIFORCE. Secondly, Ganon being IMPRISONED in the Sacred Realm. He was sealed in the Four Sword. Very different. Thirdly, it also lacks the Master Sword and anyone looking to use the Master Sword or even a mention of the Master Sword.


You are correct, but these differences do not change the fact that the events of FSA are SIMILAR to those of the IW and OoT. As I said, FSA is obviously not the IW itself, but there might be a connection.

Oh, it also lacks seven sages.

No. Sages, Maidens, whatever - It doesn't matter what they are called. They are still people with magic powers fulfilling the same role in the games. Thus, Nintendo has deliberately made FSA similar to OoT/ALttP/IW. That is a fact.

What does it have that makes it similar to the Imprisoning War? Four Knights of Hyrule and Ganon. That's all.


And what makes OoT similar to the IW? No War, no Knights of Hyrule, Ganondorf only got the ToP, the Sages did not search for Link and the MS, ect. Hell, Ganondorf wasn't even sealed by the seven Sages! He was sealed by Zelda. Very different.

How does ANY of it match the Imprisoning War better than OoT?

The Knights of Hyrule actually exist, Ganon is attacking Hyrule from the Dark World, the Links (Having taken up the roles of the old Knights) are protecting Zelda from Ganon while she cast her seal. Hm... Doesn't that sound familiar to you?

Ganon was sealed by Link and Zelda and the Four Sword. He was not sealed by the 'sages', who aren't sages at all, they're maidens and are never called sages.


I'd say that all the use of colourful magic indicates that the Maidens had some part in the seal.

Ganon has always been the King of Darkness.

WTF? It is stated that he originally became the King of Darkness when he obtained the Triforce. He latter regained that title in FSA. What proof do you have that the facts stated in ALttP and FSA are incorrect?

The Dark World is very different in FSA; the major difference being that people's forms do not change when they enter it.


That is no real problem as it seems that it is the power of the Triforce which transform people, not the Dark World itself. Thus, if Ganon did not have the Triforce, nobody would transform. And they do not transform in FSA.

#74 mohammedali

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 11:35 AM

Well, perhaps you mix the facts with your own fan fiction and made up rules rather than actually change them. Some examples:

1. FSA cannot be after OoT because Ganon can never be forgotten.
2. There are two Kings in AoL's BS.
3. TWW isn't really connected to OoT, Nintendo just wanted to mention a game that everyone knew about.

1. is my opinion, and seems to be suggested by WW and the rest of the series. Ganon is the one consistant thing in the games. We've always had one Ganon, and there is no suggestion that the evil spirit reborn was Ganon. If anyone is making something up, it's you.
2. is the only way that Zelda can be a first generation princess (which is a canon line) and this doesn't go against the information we have on AoL. It's the only way that I see AoL BS making sense, and there are lots of people of place Sleeping Zelda first.
3. is you putting words in my mouth. I said that other games could have come between OoT and WW as it says OoT is 'one of the legends'. I never said that OoT isn't connected to WW period, just that OoT was highlighted as it is a game many people are familiar with.

None of these things are even hinted at in the games, yet you still argue them as if they were fact. Such arguments hold no power over theories supported by evidence.
Yes, theories are of course acceptable. However, you need some kind of evidence that supports their validity. You have none in this case.

Look. We see the origin of Ganondorf, a leader of the Gerudos in both games. We see characters who look and are named the same, such as Kaebora Gaebora (who has only been seen and named as such in OoT). We see the DW meaning it is after OoT and before aLttP.
As for it being part of the IW, we see the Knights of Hyrule, we see maidens acting as sages, we see Ganon sealed in the FS which we later find out was placed in the PoFS in the DW essentially meaning he was sealed in DW. Hence, although I don't think it was the whole IW, I think it could be part of it.
There is obvious reason to conjecture a connection between OoT, FSA and IW. If you can't see there is a possible link then you're just being stubborn.

... To my knowledge you cannot be awakened from a slumber without being revived. Besides, it doesn't matter. The stories still do not match. Unless you somehow say that the Deku Scrubs were asleep during OoT? For some reason I doubt that.

Revived and awoken from a slumber are 2 very different things. It's obvious you made up the revived line then as you haven't provided it.

But I was not wrong, was I? You didn't answer my question, you only asked me for totally irrelevant evidence. It is just like when you said that "King = Guardian" because Ganondorf named himself King in OoT. That is despite that fact that Nabooru says that he was destined to be their King, whether the Gerudo liked it or not. Or when you said that Ganondorf did not become the King of Darkness FSA even though it was written on an ancient stone panel, meaning that the ones who wrote it KNEW that the person who got the Trident was the King of Darkness, resulting in the logical conclusion that the Trident had the power to make it's wielder into the King of Darkness. There is no other way they could have known.

Again, Look. Regardless of weither Ganon was destined to be King, it is perfectly reasonable for him to have been their guardian and then their king. In fact he can be both at the same time but that's besides the point. Given there is a time between them, it's possible he became King later in OoT but not in FSA.
As for the KoD title. FSA doesn't say he became the KoD - only you do. In FSA we see someone refer to Ganon as the KoD but doesn't say he became KoD. The only time we hear that Ganon became KoD is in aLttP BS and in OoT (which we are told are the same thing). Don't talk to me about making up facts when you're doing it yourself, hypocrit.

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#75 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 01:56 PM

Is this a joke, or are you serious. It's occasionally hard to tell with you, and it sounds like the kind of thing that might use triplespresso's comment as a springboard.


I'm serious. "Jap" is a racist term in the real world. Just like you can spell "You" instead of "U" you can spell "Japan" instead of "Jap."

#76 Fyxe

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 02:17 PM

You are correct, but these differences do not change the fact that the events of FSA are SIMILAR to those of the IW and OoT. As I said, FSA is obviously not the IW itself, but there might be a connection.


OoT has three Spiritual Stones, rather like ALttP. TWW also has similar items. Just because Zelda games borrows similar elements does not necessarily mean they're connected. What's more important when it comes to connections is that the creators intended OoT to be a prequel to ALttP. They've pretty much said so on more than one occasion now.

No. Sages, Maidens, whatever - It doesn't matter what they are called. They are still people with magic powers fulfilling the same role in the games. Thus, Nintendo has deliberately made FSA similar to OoT/ALttP/IW. That is a fact.

If they had intended them to be sages, they would of called them sages. Maidens is closer to the maidens from ALttP: that is the reference. And again, just because it borrows some characters and elements does not mean it is therefore connected.

And what makes OoT similar to the IW? No War, no Knights of Hyrule, Ganondorf only got the ToP, the Sages did not search for Link and the MS, ect.[/


No war: What do you think happened in the seven years Link was in the Sacred Realm?

No Knights of Hyrule: None that we SEE, but we don't see any when we're shown the backstory of ALttP either. Doesn't mean they don't exist.

No full Triforce: Well, he got the entire Triforce, then it split immediately afterwards. And as we see in TWW, Ganon can still obtain the remaining pieces without actually breaking the seal.

No searching: Zelda prophesised Link's coming, and part of the search for the Triforce was searching for the Master Sword.

Hell, Ganondorf wasn't even sealed by the seven Sages! He was sealed by Zelda. Very different.

That's a lie. He was HELD by Zelda, then sealed by the sages. Didn't you even PLAY the game?

The Knights of Hyrule actually exist,


Four of them. Hardly the sort of thing that classifies as a 'war'. Reusing a name doesn't mean anything. Besides, the translation of 'family of knights' in ALttP may be different from whatever they translated 'Knights of Hyrule' from. In Japan, their name in ALttP was never 'Knights of Hyrule'. It's quite possible that the Knights of Hyrule in FSA have no connection whatsoever.

Ganon is attacking Hyrule from the Dark World,

I thought he was in the Light World most of the time. We have no evidence that he ever actually visited the Dark World; he was merely trying to extend it's reach.

the Links (Having taken up the roles of the old Knights) are protecting Zelda from Ganon while she cast her seal. Hm... Doesn't that sound familiar to you?


Yep, reminds me of OoT too. Your point?

I'd say that all the use of colourful magic indicates that the Maidens had some part in the seal.

I'd have to check again, but just because there's pretty lights doesn't mean they were involved. Also, even if they were, he was sealed in the Four Sword, not the Dark World.

WTF? It is stated that he originally became the King of Darkness when he obtained the Triforce. He latter regained that title in FSA. What proof do you have that the facts stated in ALttP and FSA are incorrect?

That is no real problem as it seems that it is the power of the Triforce which transform people, not the Dark World itself. Thus, if Ganon did not have the Triforce, nobody would transform. And they do not transform in FSA.


You're contradicting yourself here. If the Triforce is not an element in FSA, then how can he be the King of Darkness? You say he regains the title. But the Imprisoning War is where Ganon got the Triforce for the first time, and became the King of Darkness. Therefore, FSA cannot be the Imprisoning War, as Ganon does not have the Triforce, and it must occur after ALttP by your logic because he regains his title.

Edited by Fyxe, 19 December 2005 - 02:20 PM.


#77 Showsni

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 02:39 PM

So Mo's saying that FSA occurs immediately after OoT Child? But the Gerudos are thieves in OoT, and noble desert guardians in FSA. And the geography's completely different.

And in the ALttP IW, Ganon isn't really sealed at all - the Sages seal the whole SR. Ganon doesn't enter into it, except that he happened to be in it at the time.

#78 Fyxe

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 02:44 PM

Well, same thing in OoT then. They force him into the Evil Realm/Dark World, then seal it. Almost exactly like ALttP's backstory.

Oh, and there's a shedload of reasons why FSA following on from OoT's Young Link timeline doesn't make sense. It hurts my head, actually.

Edited by Fyxe, 19 December 2005 - 02:44 PM.


#79 mohammedali

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 07:02 PM

So Mo's saying that FSA occurs immediately after OoT Child? But the Gerudos are thieves in OoT, and noble desert guardians in FSA. And the geography's completely different.

And in the ALttP IW, Ganon isn't really sealed at all - the Sages seal the whole SR. Ganon doesn't enter into it, except that he happened to be in it at the time.

I was saying that the Gerudos might have been seen as theives in OoT, but considering this is supposed to be a short while after Child OoT and hence a while after they swore alligence to the king, I am assuming that they are given more credit now. The geography was explained in an earlier post.

As for the sealing of the whole SR, as I said before, I'm not suggesting that FSA is the whole IW, just a part of it. hence the sealing of the SR and the placement of the FS in the ToFS in the SR is all after FSA ends.

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#80 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 07:43 PM

(Mohammedali) I know it's fanfic, but I'm suggesting that the difference here is that because Zelda sent him back in time instread of the MS like before, it had an effect on his memory so that he could live like a happy go lucky child without the memories of the alternate future.

Sorry bub...but there is no canon evidence that even at least infers Link may forget everything once Zelda sends him back. That still would defeat the purpose of sending him back. What would keep Link from still listening to Zelda about entering the Temple of Time, if he he doesn't remember everything? If Link does the same thing over, then he definitely won't get a chance to live like a 'happy go lucky child' or whatever corny way you put it. Just drop it and smell the roses--stop trying to bend things.


(mohammedali) My point was that FSA doesn't talk about the Triforce even though they may know that Ganondorf has it. I was thinking of a more complex idea, but as I haven't played the game, I'm not sure if it will work. For now I'm happy to say that FSA simply doens't show any discussion on the Triforce even if Zelda knows that Ganondorf has it. I may be wrong for some reason and need to rework the idea, but I'm just theorising at present.


May be wrong for some reason? Uhmm...you ARE wrong. You mean to tell there is no mention of the Triforce...even though in game characters may know it's been seized by the very villain they're fighting? You can tell me that Ganon is of the Gerudos, he's empowered by the Trident, and he's also an ancient demon reborn, but you fail to mention he has the Triforce? That is BS to the extreme and you know it! In every Zelda game involving the Triforce, Link has been made aware by other characters that it is in danger or whatever. In every Zelda game that involves the Triforce, Link is briefed on it's status and importance. I want everyone to pay attention and witness the next load of crap Mohammedali tries to dish out in response to this.

I think Fyxe already answered this question.

I'm going to tell you the same thing I told Fyxe: TWW BS was also a legend, but they still gave a pretty accurate account about OOT, and it at least mentions the Hero of Time and even his exploits across time. In other parts of TWW we learn of the sages part in OOT, and also the Master Sword's role as well. Now keep in mind these facts about the events of OOT survived for several centuries after a cataclysmic flood. However in aLttP, the sages and Knights of Hyrule are remembered but not the Hero of Time and his exploits?

(Hero of Legend) And what makes OoT similar to the IW? No War, no Knights of Hyrule, Ganondorf only got the ToP, the Sages did not search for Link and the MS, ect. Hell, Ganondorf wasn't even sealed by the seven Sages! He was sealed by Zelda. Very different.


I think Fyxe addressed this earlier, but I'll add. At the end of OOT Zelda and the sages seal Ganon away together.

(Hero of Legend) Hell, Ganondorf wasn't even sealed by the seven Sages

Funny...you say that as if Zelda's not a sage. She's the seventh sage. So Ganon, in OOT was sealed by the Seven Sages. In case you don't believe it...feast your eyes on this:

ZELDA, WHEN SHE IS HOLDING GANON:
I'm using my power to hold the Evil King! You use your sword and deliver the final blow!
ZELDA, AFTER LINK GIVES GANON FINAL BLOW:
(centered)
Six Sages...
Now!!
RAURU, SEALING GANON:
(centered)
Ancient Creators of Hyrule!
Now, open the sealed door and send the Evil Incarnation of Darkness into the void of the Evil Realm!!


There ya have it.

(Fyxe) And as we see in TWW, Ganon can still obtain the remaining pieces without actually breaking the seal.

Uhmmmm you wanna elaborate on how Ganon was able to do this? From what I know, Ganon had already broken the sages seal back in the TWW BS, which is why the world was flooded. During that time the gods imposed another seal that was keyed by the Master Sword. This seal was made to keep Ganon at bay underneath the seas in ancient Hyrule. Apparently, that seal was breached as well, since he's above the surface when we first see him in TWW.

(Fyxe) Zelda prophesised Link's coming, and part of the search for the Triforce was searching for the Master Sword.


In OOT, Zelda already knew where the MS and Triforce was. That's why she threw the Ocarina to Link so that he may enter the Temple of Time. Zelda just needed Link to find the spiritual stones since those are the keys to accessing the place where the MS and Triforce lay.

#81 mohammedali

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 08:15 PM

Sorry bub...but there is no canon evidence that even at least infers Link may forget everything once Zelda sends him back. That still would defeat the purpose of sending him back. What would keep Link from still listening to Zelda about entering the Temple of Time, if he he doesn't remember everything? If Link does the same thing over, then he definitely won't get a chance to live like a 'happy go lucky child' or whatever corny way you put it. Just drop it and smell the roses--stop trying to bend things.

As I said, Link forgetting stuff when Zelda sends him back is fanfic. I admit it. I am just suggesting that Zelda gives Link to get on with his life, and does something to prevent the same problems from happening. This could be the seal in Adult OoT having an effect on Child OoT world or something else entirely. Again, I know it's fanfic, but the thrust of my arguement is about where FSA goes, and not on why Link doesn't recognise Dark Link.

May be wrong for some reason? Uhmm...you ARE wrong. You mean to tell there is no mention of the Triforce...even though in game characters may know it's been seized by the very villain they're fighting? You can tell me that Ganon is of the Gerudos, he's empowered by the Trident, and he's also an ancient demon reborn, but you fail to mention he has the Triforce? That is BS to the extreme and you know it! In every Zelda game involving the Triforce, Link has been made aware by other characters that it is in danger or whatever. In every Zelda game that involves the Triforce, Link is briefed on it's status and importance. I want everyone to pay attention and witness the next load of crap Mohammedali tries to dish out in response to this.

STFU. If you want to ask me about the theory then fine. I'm not going to listen to pathetic rubbish like "I want everyone to pay attention and witness the next load of crap Mohammedali tries to dish out in response to this". Either talk with some manners or don't talk at all.

The Triforce isn't mentioned as it isn't relevant to the game. They don't have to mention it, and they didn't mention it. Hence, it's placing is unknown.

I'm going to tell you the same thing I told Fyxe: TWW BS was also a legend, but they still gave a pretty accurate account about OOT, and it at least mentions the Hero of Time and even his exploits across time. In other parts of TWW we learn of the sages part in OOT, and also the Master Sword's role as well. Now keep in mind these facts about the events of OOT survived for several centuries after a cataclysmic flood. However in aLttP, the sages and Knights of Hyrule are remembered but not the Hero of Time and his exploits?

They are in different timelines. Hence even though the HoT was remembered in WW, he wasn't remembered in aLttP. This could be because things got worse in Adult OoT (WW BS) than it did in FSA (perhaps part of aLttP BS), and hence people remembered the efforts of Link more in one timeline, who knows. Whatever the answer, it doesn't matter. aLttP may not big up Link even if WW does as they are in different timelines.

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#82 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 01:14 PM

Either talk with some manners or don't talk at all.


^ Hypocrisy

#83 Fyxe

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 07:23 PM

I'm going to tell you the same thing I told Fyxe: TWW BS was also a legend, but they still gave a pretty accurate account about OOT, and it at least mentions the Hero of Time and even his exploits across time. In other parts of TWW we learn of the sages part in OOT, and also the Master Sword's role as well. Now keep in mind these facts about the events of OOT survived for several centuries after a cataclysmic flood. However in aLttP, the sages and Knights of Hyrule are remembered but not the Hero of Time and his exploits?


You MUST remember, that TWW has no excuse for the legend at the start to contradict the rest of the game. It follows it's own internal canon just fine.

However, ALttP and OoT are different games entirely, with a fair few years seperating them. OoT, while it was fairly clear that it was referencing ALttP, was designed primarily as a game to work on it's own.

Uhmmmm you wanna elaborate on how Ganon was able to do this? From what I know, Ganon had already broken the sages seal back in the TWW BS, which is why the world was flooded.

Actually, nothing was ever said the seal was broken. In fact, it was specifically said to be a mystery how Ganon escaped.

During that time the gods imposed another seal that was keyed by the Master Sword. This seal was made to keep Ganon at bay underneath the seas in ancient Hyrule. Apparently, that seal was breached as well, since he's above the surface when we first see him in TWW.


Breached, but not broken. The seal is not broken until Link removes the Master Sword.

In OOT, Zelda already knew where the MS and Triforce was. That's why she threw the Ocarina to Link so that he may enter the Temple of Time. Zelda just needed Link to find the spiritual stones since those are the keys to accessing the place where the MS and Triforce lay.


Nobody even mentions the Master Sword until you see it. The entrance to the Sacred Realm was known, but not the Master Sword.

#84 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 03:01 PM

You MUST remember, that TWW has no excuse for the legend at the start to contradict the rest of the game. It follows it's own internal canon just fine.

I fail to see your point here. What are you getting at?

However, ALttP and OoT are different games entirely, with a fair few years seperating them. OoT, while it was fairly clear that it was referencing ALttP, was designed primarily as a game to work on it's own.
Actually, nothing was ever said the seal was broken. In fact, it was specifically said to be a mystery how Ganon escaped.


However he still somehow returned after he was sealed in OOT. If he's wreaking havoc in Hyrule...then I think it's easy to assume he's outside of the sages seal--that's a given. No question about that other than how--which is not important to the matter at hand. I say this since the question at hand is, 'did he break that seal?' Or maybe you're being technical, in that someone else could've broken the seal for him, similar to aLttP, which is plausible. Nonetheless, he's still outside of it according to the TWW BS.

Breached, but not broken. The seal is not broken until Link removes the Master Sword.

Since you wanna be technical. No matter what wording you use--it doesn't change the fact that Ganon is above the surface or OUTSIDE of that barrier. We see Ganon in TWW before Link ever removed the Master Sword.

Nobody even mentions the Master Sword until you see it. The entrance to the Sacred Realm was known, but not the Master Sword.


We don't know if Zelda knew or not. But she certainly knew about the location of the Sacred Realm. However I'm certain Rauru knew, since he's an ancient...who took part in the creation of the Temple of Time.

#85 Fyxe

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 03:56 PM

I'm not saying that Ganon *wasn't* beyond each seal. I was saying he WAS. You were asking how Ganon could obtain the remaining Triforce pieces without breaking the seal. We see both in TWW and even in ALttP that Ganon can have plenty of influence beyond even a seal created by the gods, manifesting himself beyond it or using an alter-ego in the form of Agahnim. So the idea of Ganon regaining the remaining pieces before ALttP occurs is not far fetched by any stretch of the imagination.

And again, we do not know if Rauru took part in the creation of the Temple of Time, whether the Master Sword was there when they first made it or not, whether the legend of ALttP actually refers to THOSE sages.

#86 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 04:46 PM

I'm not saying that Ganon *wasn't* beyond each seal. I was saying he WAS. You were asking how Ganon could obtain the remaining Triforce pieces without breaking the seal. We see both in TWW and even in ALttP that Ganon can have plenty of influence beyond even a seal created by the gods, manifesting himself beyond it or using an alter-ego in the form of Agahnim. So the idea of Ganon regaining the remaining pieces before ALttP occurs is not far fetched by any stretch of the imagination.

That is true, however, if Ganon were to get his alter ego to steal let's say the ToW, then Zelda and the Royal Family would know this, since it's passed on from generation to generation like in TWW. This is not the case prior to or even during aLttP.

And again, we do not know if Rauru took part in the creation of the Temple of Time, whether the Master Sword was there when they first made it or not, whether the legend of ALttP actually refers to THOSE sages.


Rauru specifically says that he and the ancient sages built the Temple of Time to protect the entrance to the Sacred Realm and the MS was the final key to accessing it. Even if the sword wasn't a key when the Temple was first built, the MS would still have to be placed there by someone later to serve as a key. I don't see why Rauru or any other sage wouldn't know this considering the Chamber of Sages is like their place of conference.

From the Zelda bloopers and outtakes: "Oh how did that sword get there...and how on earth did someone change the final lock to the Sacred Realm."

#87 Fyxe

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 07:49 PM

That is true, however, if Ganon were to get his alter ego to steal let's say the ToW, then Zelda and the Royal Family would know this, since it's passed on from generation to generation like in TWW. This is not the case prior to or even during aLttP.


Ok, looking at both OoT and ALttP, where is it that it's said that it's passed down generation to generation? That doesn't come about until TWW gets involved, and just because there's a tradition doesn't mean it won't go away and be forgotten about at some point.

Besides, so what if the Royal Family knew it or not? It's irrelevant how Ganon regained the remaining pieces, the point is he has the whole of the Triforce at the time of ALttP.

Rauru specifically says that he and the ancient sages built the Temple of Time to protect the entrance to the Sacred Realm and the MS was the final key to accessing it. Even if the sword wasn't a key when the Temple was first built, the MS would still have to be placed there by someone later to serve as a key. I don't see why Rauru or any other sage wouldn't know this considering the Chamber of Sages is like their place of conference.

From the Zelda bloopers and outtakes: "Oh how did that sword get there...and how on earth did someone change the final lock to the Sacred Realm."


No, Rauru said he was ONE of a group of sages, a group that built the Temple of Time but that does not necessarily mean he was there when they did it, or was involved in any way. We know virtually nothing about the sages. Are they a race? An organisation that he is merely the last of, like the Sheikah? After all, he's still alive, isn't he? I don't think it's ever suggested that he was actually alive at the time that the Temple of Time was made.

Anyway, I do find it odd that Rauru would not know the location of the Master Sword, that is right. But Zelda did not necessarily know, and if something is going to become a legend, she is going to be the focus. Since she was the only active sage during the child time, it was true that she was searching for the Master Sword.

And it's clear that Rauru and the other sages are hoping that Link is the one who will weild it. Not only were they searching for the sword, but mainly they were searching for someone who could weild it. This is clear in ALttP's backstory. Both these events in OoT and the backstory of ALttP may not tie in perfectly, but they are so similar that it would just wouldn't make any sense why the creators would copy it so closely without intending a connection. Remember, OoT was the first major Zelda game after ALttP. The connections were obviously intended. They were not followed perfectly, because, to be quite honest, I doubt they thought some people would be so damn nitpicky about something that was clearly just a legend. And you KNOW that they do gameplay first, story second. With all the panic about OoT's release date, I doubt they really cared about following it 100% perfectly. If it makes a better game, they can take some liberties, because ALttP's backstory IS just a legend. Nobody should expect legends to be 100% accurate.

I should also point out that absolutely no talk about the legend in-game in ALttP ever contradicts anything about the Master Sword in OoT. It may simply be that the creators did not take the manual backstory into consideration, and concentrated purely on the in-game text.

#88 Hero of Legend

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 09:52 AM

Sorry for the late reply. I have been very busy (lazy) these past days... And **** those quote tags.

*Mohammed Ali* - 1. is my opinion, and seems to be suggested by WW and the rest of the series. Ganon is the one consistant thing in the games. We've always had one Ganon, and there is no suggestion that the evil spirit reborn was Ganon. If anyone is making something up, it's you.

Ganon is not a consistent thing in the series. He isn't even in every game. And there is nothing proving that there has only been one Ganon either. Also, do you know what "reborn" means? Simply, if Ganon is the rebirth of an ancient demon, that demon WAS Ganon (before he died), because they are the same person. Deal with it.

2. is the only way that Zelda can be a first generation princess (which is a canon line) and this doesn't go against the information we have on AoL. It's the only way that I see AoL BS making sense, and there are lots of people of place Sleeping Zelda first.

Well, either way you are making stuff up without having any evidence to support this fan fiction of yours. Therefore your theory is less likely to be correct, as Nintendo might very well think differently. It is much more probable that it is a mere plot hole that Nintendo just don't care about.

3. is you putting words in my mouth. I said that other games could have come between OoT and WW as it says OoT is 'one of the legends'. I never said that OoT isn't connected to WW period, just that OoT was highlighted as it is a game many people are familiar with.

But that is still contradicting in-game facts as TWW shows us a stronger connection between two games than any other Zelda games (Besides FSA).

Look. We see the origin of Ganondorf, a leader of the Gerudos in both games. We see characters who look and are named the same, such as Kaebora Gaebora (who has only been seen and named as such in OoT). We see the DW meaning it is after OoT and before aLttP.

All of that is true, but it does not prove anything other than that FSA is before ALttP. Returning characters mean nothing, and Ganon's double origin has an explanation.

As for it being part of the IW, we see the Knights of Hyrule, we see maidens acting as sages, we see Ganon sealed in the FS which we later find out was placed in the PoFS in the DW essentially meaning he was sealed in DW. Hence, although I don't think it was the whole IW, I think it could be part of it.
There is obvious reason to conjecture a connection between OoT, FSA and IW. If you can't see there is a possible link then you're just being stubborn.


Oh, but I agree with you about the connection between OoT, FSA and the IW.

Revived and awoken from a slumber are 2 very different things. It's obvious you made up the revived line then as you haven't provided it.

Um... It is obvious that the Deku Scrubs were asleep for quite some time before Ganon awoke them, as nobody knows what they are. And, to my knowledge, when you awake someone from an "endless" slumber you revive that person...

Again, Look. Regardless of weither Ganon was destined to be King, it is perfectly reasonable for him to have been their guardian and then their king. In fact he can be both at the same time but that's besides the point. Given there is a time between them, it's possible he became King later in OoT but not in FSA.

No! Because Ganondorf was BORN to be King. And he already was King during the child part of OoT, as Nabooru and the Gossip Stones prove. Don't change facts.

As for the KoD title. FSA doesn't say he became the KoD - only you do. In FSA we see someone refer to Ganon as the KoD but doesn't say he became KoD. The only time we hear that Ganon became KoD is in aLttP BS and in OoT (which we are told are the same thing). Don't talk to me about making up facts when you're doing it yourself, hypocrit.

Do you have bad eyesight? I ask you because you obviously didn't see how I PROVED that Ganon became the KoD when he took the Trident. Besides, it is obvious what the text means. You're just bitching because you don't like it.

*Fyxe* - OoT has three Spiritual Stones, rather like ALttP. TWW also has similar items. Just because Zelda games borrows similar elements does not necessarily mean they're connected. What's more important when it comes to connections is that the creators intended OoT to be a prequel to ALttP. They've pretty much said so on more than one occasion now.

Hehehe... You know, all those games that borrow stuff from one another ARE connected. TWW is connected to OoT, as is ALttP. FSA seems to be connected to ALttP, and look, it features Maidens! Coincidence? I think not.

If they had intended them to be sages, they would of called them sages. Maidens is closer to the maidens from ALttP: that is the reference. And again, just because it borrows some characters and elements does not mean it is therefore connected.

No, the storyline makes it apparent that the games are connected.

About the Maidens: They are Sages in ever aspect other than being, well, maidens. You must remember that it is stated in ALttP that they are the descendants of the old Sages, and they do have magic powers. Thus they ARE Sages. That is what ALttP says.

No war: What do you think happened in the seven years Link was in the Sacred Realm?

*Impa* - On that day seven years ago, Ganondorf suddenly attacked... and Hyrule Castle surrendered after a short time. Ganondorf's target was one of the keys to the Sacred Realm...the hidden treasure of the Royal Family... The Ocarina of Time! My duty bound me to take Zelda out of Ganondorf's reach. When last I saw you, as we made our escape from the castle, you were just a lad...

Nothing happened it seems. The forces of Hyrule obviously surrendered after that first battle.

No Knights of Hyrule: None that we SEE, but we don't see any when we're shown the backstory of ALttP either. Doesn't mean they don't exist.

It doesn't mean they exist either. If Nintendo wanted them there they could have put them in the game. Andů WTF? We see the Knights of Hyrule in the intro of ALttP. Who do you think those soldiers fighting the monsters are?

No full Triforce: Well, he got the entire Triforce, then it split immediately afterwards. And as we see in TWW, Ganon can still obtain the remaining pieces without actually breaking the seal.

The seal is broken in TWW. Besides, Ganondorf lost the ToP and got turned into stone. He can't just go back into the DW for ALttP to happen. The fact is that neither OoT nor TWW works as ALttP's (real) BS.

No searching: Zelda prophesised Link's coming, and part of the search for the Triforce was searching for the Master Sword.

Not that I know off.

That's a lie. He was HELD by Zelda, then sealed by the sages. Didn't you even PLAY the game?

Didn't YOU pay attention to what she SAID?

*Zelda* - The six Sages will open the sealed door and lure Ganondorf back into the Sacred Realm. I will then seal the door to the Sacred Realm from this world.

And we latter see the Sages OPEN the portal, but we never see it get sealed. But we know who did it... Unless you are saying that she is a liar. Also, it doesn't matter that she is a Sage, she's still not SEVEN Sages.

Four of them. Hardly the sort of thing that classifies as a 'war'. Reusing a name doesn't mean anything. Besides, the translation of 'family of knights' in ALttP may be different from whatever they translated 'Knights of Hyrule' from. In Japan, their name in ALttP was never 'Knights of Hyrule'. It's quite possible that the Knights of Hyrule in FSA have no connection whatsoever.

Any Knights of Hyrule is better than no Knights at all. Simple as that.

I thought he was in the Light World most of the time. We have no evidence that he ever actually visited the Dark World; he was merely trying to extend it's reach.

Wasn't that what he did in the IW as well? Because he was not sealed in the DW until AFTER the war.

Yep, reminds me of OoT too. Your point?

It reminds me of the IW as well as OoT. Anyway, my point is that FSA share similarities with the IW that only OoT had before. And those games are connected.

I'd have to check again, but just because there's pretty lights doesn't mean they were involved. Also, even if they were, he was sealed in the Four Sword, not the Dark World.

True enough. Though I wonder why they included the Maidens at all if it didn't hold any significance.

You're contradicting yourself here. If the Triforce is not an element in FSA, then how can he be the King of Darkness? You say he regains the title. But the Imprisoning War is where Ganon got the Triforce for the first time, and became the King of Darkness. Therefore, FSA cannot be the Imprisoning War, as Ganon does not have the Triforce, and it must occur after ALttP by your logic because he regains his title.

Ah, sorry about the confusion there. You see, my theory is that OoT is the beginning of the IW when Ganondorf originally got the Triforce and became the King of Darkness. But the IW does not end until sometime after FSA when Ganon is sealed in the DW with the Triforce in his possession. And then ALttP happens.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 22 December 2005 - 10:07 AM.


#89 Guest_TripleEspresso9_*

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 12:07 PM

Just curious, what's the single timeline explanation for Ganon's reintroduction in FSA? It's a non issue in my theory. Also, the Deku scrub thing doesn't really matter in my theory, either. I've got FSA taking place decades after Child OoT/MM.

#90 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 03:45 PM

Single Timeline explaination? Reincarnation, I think.




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