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Do you think that the Links are literally descendants?


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#61 Person

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Posted 24 May 2009 - 11:50 PM

he somehow got ahold of a new sword and shield in between OoT and MM.

Actually, the sword he starts out with in MM is called Kokiri sword, so I'm guessing he just had it reforged...

I thought it was something generic like "Hero's Sword" in Japanese?

#62 SOAP

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Posted 25 May 2009 - 01:02 AM

Anyone notice how the Kokiri Sword (Oot) looks like the Four Sword?


....

What!?

#63 Fin

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Posted 25 May 2009 - 01:25 AM

Anyone notice how the Kokiri Sword (Oot) looks like the Four Sword?


Don't tell Lex. It probably proves something about how Nintendo have been planning everything in his timeline from the beginning or something. :ph34r:

#64 SOAP

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Posted 25 May 2009 - 07:58 AM

I HAVE to find out who this Lex person is. Everyone talks so bad about him that I want to read one of his theories just to see what big deal is.

#65 Raien

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Posted 25 May 2009 - 09:11 AM

I HAVE to find out who this Lex person is. Everyone talks so bad about him that I want to read one of his theories just to see what big deal is.


The infuriating thing about Lex is that his theories don't rely on fanfiction, but they rely heavily on twisting evidence to mean things that they obviously don't mean. For all intents and purposes, Lex is a historical negationist.

One of my favourite examples is where he took one of the last lines from FSA, "Ganon has been sealed away from the world", to argue that Ganon had been sealed in another dimension, in order to justify his argument that Ganon had been sealed in the Dark World, not the Four Sword. I beat that argument down for two months, during which he tried twisting other things, like arguing that the image of Ganon being sucked into the Four Sword actually showed his soul separated from his magic.

A more recent example is where he argued that the King of Hyrule used the Triforce by, get this, ...NOT using the Triforce.

#66 Duke Serkol

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Posted 25 May 2009 - 09:16 AM

Anyone notice how the Kokiri Sword (Oot) looks like the Four Sword?


I most certainly did yes.
I consider it further evidence that MC Link's clothes are explained by those of the Kokiri being made by the Minish (who also made the Four Sword).

#67 Billy Goat

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Posted 25 May 2009 - 11:42 AM

I consider it further evidence that MC Link's clothes are explained by those of the Kokiri being made by the Minish (who also made the Four Sword).



I don't think the creators had this in mind, but this is incredibly inciteful @_@ makes lots of sense. But then again, the Minish made LOTS of things. In fact, they probably helped make most of the Hyllian items anyways, like Bows, Arrows, Pegasus boots, and probably most of all the other magical items that link can use.


But that's just theory.

#68 Duke Serkol

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Posted 25 May 2009 - 11:52 AM

Well, the idea here is to reconcile the origin story of Link's clothes as given in OoT (they are the clothes worn by Kokiri the people that adopted he who was once unanimously considered the first Link) with the origin story of Link's hat as given in MC (in which we see that a previous hero did wear the same clothes but no hat).

If the Minish crafted the clothes for the Kokiri (and if not, did they go around naked until the Deku Tree taught them to weave? ...and why would a tree know that??) then they could have done so with the hero(of men, of MC)'s clothes as a model and thus the problem would be solved.

#69 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 25 May 2009 - 10:38 PM

...and why would a tree know that?


The same reason why a tree would know how to speak, form forrst babby, and cast magic.

Edited by Arturo, 26 May 2009 - 10:50 AM.


#70 SOAP

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 06:36 AM

Well, the idea here is to reconcile the origin story of Link's clothes as given in OoT (they are the clothes worn by Kokiri the people that adopted he who was once unanimously considered the first Link) with the origin story of Link's hat as given in MC (in which we see that a previous hero did wear the same clothes but no hat).

If the Minish crafted the clothes for the Kokiri (and if not, did they go around naked until the Deku Tree taught them to weave? ...and why would a tree know that??) then they could have done so with the hero(of men, of MC)'s clothes as a model and thus the problem would be solved.


Well I just figured the Koroks in TWW were their natural forms and the Koikri form was just an illusion to immitate Hylian children. The gren garbas I always took to be styled after what the Hylain children wore, escept they all wore the same green.

#71 Duke Serkol

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 07:30 AM

...and why would a tree know that?

The same reason why a tree would know how to speak, form forrst babby, and cast magic.

Yeah and I'm sure he's not only an excellent tailor but also a proficient carpenter. Why? BECAUSE!

It just seems silly to me to imagine the Deku Tree teaching the Kokiri how to weave. He could have created their clothes with magic, yes, but does magic have to be our default answer for everything?

Well I just figured the Koroks in TWW were their natural forms and the Koikri form was just an illusion to immitate Hylian children.

Me too. But if Link's clothes are real, why not theirs?

The gren garbas I always took to be styled after what the Hylain children wore

I don't believe any otehr children wore clothes like that though (that I can remember, at least).

Edited by Duke Serkol, 26 May 2009 - 07:33 AM.


#72 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 03:28 PM

Yeah and I'm sure he's not only an excellent tailor but also a proficient carpenter. Why? BECAUSE!

It just seems silly to me to imagine the Deku Tree teaching the Kokiri how to weave. He could have created their clothes with magic, yes, but does magic have to be our default answer for everything?


I figured it was pretty clear that the Deku Tree knew just about frickin' everything. If it suits you, maybe an earlier Kokiri invented those skills, and told "Daddy Great Deku Tree about the neat thing I learned!" and he held on to the knowledge to teach to future generations of his children.

#73 Duke Serkol

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 03:35 PM

You know, looking back it at this really seems kind of piintless... I mean, why are we arguing over something like this in the first place? It's not like we'll be able to determine which is the case anyway :lol:

#74 Person

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 04:12 PM

I HAVE to find out who this Lex person is. Everyone talks so bad about him that I want to read one of his theories just to see what big deal is.


The infuriating thing about Lex is that his theories don't rely on fanfiction, but they rely heavily on twisting evidence to mean things that they obviously don't mean. For all intents and purposes, Lex is a historical negationist.

One of my favourite examples is where he took one of the last lines from FSA, "Ganon has been sealed away from the world", to argue that Ganon had been sealed in another dimension, in order to justify his argument that Ganon had been sealed in the Dark World, not the Four Sword. I beat that argument down for two months, during which he tried twisting other things, like arguing that the image of Ganon being sucked into the Four Sword actually showed his soul separated from his magic.

A more recent example is where he argued that the King of Hyrule used the Triforce by, get this, ...NOT using the Triforce.

I had another argument with him over at ZU wherein he argued that because the latest versions of games are the most canon, that means that the Japanese versions (which include some stuff that conflicts with his theories) aren't canon. And that the Master Sword in OoX is totally canon, and that an OoS-OoA order is "highest canon" because he can twist it to support his messed-up theory about how the Master Sword from ALttP isactually a different one from the one in OoT. You see, he places most games after TWW, and that's his way around the whole "MS is in Ganon's head underwater" problem in time for ALttP. And the Dark Mirror being in FSA totally disproves that it could ever be after TP, but a Hyrule mostly identical to the one in OoT coming after TWW is just fine.

#75 Sir Turtlelot

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 05:06 PM

I had another argument with him over at ZU wherein he argued that because the latest versions of games are the most canon, that means that the Japanese versions (which include some stuff that conflicts with his theories) aren't canon. And that the Master Sword in OoX is totally canon, and that an OoS-OoA order is "highest canon" because he can twist it to support his messed-up theory about how the Master Sword from ALttP isactually a different one from the one in OoT. You see, he places most games after TWW, and that's his way around the whole "MS is in Ganon's head underwater" problem in time for ALttP. And the Dark Mirror being in FSA totally disproves that it could ever be after TP, but a Hyrule mostly identical to the one in OoT coming after TWW is just fine.

And I thought my theories were abstract.

#76 Duke Serkol

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 08:27 PM

And that the Master Sword in OoX is totally canon

Well, that little tiny bit (out of all you mention) might well be. Just saying.

And SOAP... where you really not around to read that theory about MM's Stone Tower being inspired by the Tower of Babel and meant as a giant phallic symbol pointed skywards, erected (pun intended) deliberately to offend the gods (the hand pointing up and the mocking face are certain proof!) and so that the Ikanians could reach up to the heavens? To which the Gods responded by flipping the tower upside down (like you can in the game) and thus making them open a portal to hell (where you fight Twinmold) resulting in the curse of living death?

Oh and I forget, further evidence pointing to this undeniable inconvenient truth was that the blocks you climb up in the tower are sculpted in the form of people with tongues reaching down to their crotch, were they have a Triforce (oooh burn gods!)

Edited by Duke Serkol, 26 May 2009 - 08:34 PM.


#77 Average Gamer

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 09:48 PM

And SOAP... where you really not around to read that theory about MM's Stone Tower being inspired by the Tower of Babel and meant as a giant phallic symbol pointed skywards, erected (pun intended) deliberately to offend the gods (the hand pointing up and the mocking face are certain proof!) and so that the Ikanians could reach up to the heavens? To which the Gods responded by flipping the tower upside down (like you can in the game) and thus making them open a portal to hell (where you fight Twinmold) resulting in the curse of living death?

Oh and I forget, further evidence pointing to this undeniable inconvenient truth was that the blocks you climb up in the tower are sculpted in the form of people with tongues reaching down to their crotch, were they have a Triforce (oooh burn gods!)


The sad thing is, that part of Hylian Dan's "theory" was actually the most plausible, though that really isn't saying much. The rest of his material consisted of fanfiction, ridiculously dolling up or otherwise exaggerating certain events, and basically fellating the entire game. The most laughable thing I ever saw was Dan writing fourteen paragraphs just to describe the tiny little tunnel between East Clock Town and the Observatory. He tried to make it all grimdark, but when I pointed out that it's a well-lit tunnel that a group of five-year olds can safely navigate he shut down for a bit then came back with something flimsy and generic about how "It was meant to be scary." Needless to say I called him out on that again.

Honestly, when dealing with that "theory" it was like one was facing numerous webs of deceit and lies, grouped into a ball and all made of crap. There wasn't any real opposition; it was just that one would say something, burn away a layer of crap, and there would be another layer of crap underneath it.

Sorry for the rant and if that was harsh, but I always wanted to say that.

Edited by Average Gamer, 26 May 2009 - 09:52 PM.


#78 Sparx401

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 01:59 AM

Ah, no problem Average Gamer. I have some steam to let off as well. Now, I'm not sure if this is worse than Lex or not because this problem may be categorically different, and the fact that I haven't debated with Lex since...I don't know, last year or so. I'm currently debating with this guy on GameFAQs and it's just gut-wrenching when I try to explain the split timeline to him. He's not a linearist, but he insists that Link gets sent back in time to the point before he meets Zelda for the first time, even though it contradicts the picture he shows. He repeatedly refuses to acknowledge the fact that Ganondorf chasing Zelda happens AFTER Link pulls the Master Sword as well as pulling BS evidence out of his arse (like saying the sages have the power to close the door of time; a power that he arbitrarily gives them to shield his theory from contradiction, or that Ganondorf attacked Hyrule Castle twice; one before the split, and one after on the CHILD timeline).

*sigh* This is getting real tiring. :(

But yeah, GameFAQs is pretty bad (and no, I haven't been to the IGN forums).

#79 Raien

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 06:34 AM

Sparx, I don't think anyone in this forum has come to a definite conclusion on what actually happened with OoT's timeline split, and that includes the point in which Link returned to the past. While I can understand your frustration at making a point on this subject, I really wouldn't put it in the same league as explaining to Lex why an obvious metaphor should not be taken literally, or vice versa.

#80 Sparx401

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 02:17 PM

Sparx, I don't think anyone in this forum has come to a definite conclusion on what actually happened with OoT's timeline split, and that includes the point in which Link returned to the past.


Yes, I am aware of that, and I didn't really push out my theory so much as try to show that it is, at the very least, plausible out of a set of certain possibilities (each covering one thing while leaving open another essentially), but the main thing I'm disgruntled at, beyond anything else, is the fact that he adamantly refuses to admit that Ganondorf chases Zelda out of Hyrule Castle before Link pulls the Master Sword out for the first time. Honestly, one doesn't need to theorize in order to show this as true.

#81 Raien

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 02:32 PM

Yes, I am aware of that, and I didn't really push out my theory so much as try to show that it is, at the very least, plausible out of a set of certain possibilities (each covering one thing while leaving open another essentially), but the main thing I'm disgruntled at, beyond anything else, is the fact that he adamantly refuses to admit that Ganondorf chases Zelda out of Hyrule Castle before Link pulls the Master Sword out for the first time. Honestly, one doesn't need to theorize in order to show this as true.


Yeah, that is a silly argument. What is it about timeline theorists that they just make up their own narrative conventions to suit whatever theories they have? It's one of the biggest reasons why people make a mess of timeline theorising.

#82 SOAP

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 02:36 PM

Me too. But if Link's clothes are real, why not theirs?


It always seemmed to me taht Link being Hylian was this big elephnat in the room that all the Kokirri knew about but never talked about, or at least not in front of Link. Unless they're all a completely new set of Kikiri created after his arrival as an infant, they all saw him grow up from a baby. Eventually the act would out of the bag regardless. Link's clothes were probably the only real clothes there.

I don't believe any otehr children wore clothes like that though (that I can remember, at least).

They're not all taht odd. Just the color. They're just simple, vaguely medeval looking tunics that's not unlike whhat the peasants in OoT wear. The only exception would be the cap but I think I remember a few people wearing such hats before. Not children though.

and SOAP... where you really not around to read that theory about MM's Stone Tower being inspired by the Tower of Babel and meant as a giant phallic symbol pointed skywards, erected (pun intended) deliberately to offend the gods (the hand pointing up and the mocking face are certain proof!) and so that the Ikanians could reach up to the heavens? To which the Gods responded by flipping the tower upside down (like you can in the game) and thus making them open a portal to hell (where you fight Twinmold) resulting in the curse of living death?

Oh and I forget, further evidence pointing to this undeniable inconvenient truth was that the blocks you climb up in the tower are sculpted in the form of people with tongues reaching down to their crotch, were they have a Triforce (oooh burn gods!)


That sounds very familiar. I think I remember reading about that when I used to debate at VGF's Zelda forums.

#83 Showsni

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 09:30 AM

There aren't any clothes shops, sheep, cotton plants, etc. in Hyrule at all, that we see. So everyones clothes must be magic. Or, you know, not important to the game. Anyway, fairies are supposed to be pretty good at making clothes, right?

#84 avroillusion

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 12:00 PM

In A Link to the Past, it sates that a Link's ancestor needs to merely be a Knight of Hyrule, not a Legendary Hero himself. The Links just need to be related, even distantly, to one of Hyrule's elite knights.

It has been said that whenever disaster waylays the royal family, a Hero shall emerge from the bloodline of the Knights of Hyrule...


I believe OOT Link's father was some sort of noble or even a high ranking knight. TP Link's may have been a knight as well, but since he is absent, I'm assuming he died. ALttP's Link's uncle knew sword techniques unique to the Knights. In the Four Sword's manga, Link's father is a Knight of Hyrule. In MC, Smith was said to be close to the King, it wouldn't be surprising if he or one of his children offered their warrior services to the King.

#85 Duke Serkol

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 02:34 PM

Nice collection of evidence... some (in particular, of course, the manga) can't be considered solid/univocal, but the ALttP quote certainly seems all we really need (since it says whenever thus not only referring to one prophesized crisis).

#86 Fin

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 03:22 PM

It has been said that whenever disaster waylays the royal family, a Hero shall emerge from the bloodline of the Knights of Hyrule...


For the record, it's said by Sahasrahla when you bring him the Pendant of Courage in the GBA version.

Here's KWhazit's translation of the SNES text.

They were called the Knight Family, who kept charge of the Crest of Courage, but when the Seven Sages' seal was carried out, I'm afraid most of them perished in the battle with the demons. The hero is supposed to appear out of that family.


Which doesn't include the "whenever" of the GBA translation. :(

#87 jacensolo06

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 03:26 PM

Average Gamer actually PM'd me about that line recently, so I have my translation of that line:

Long ago, there was a family of people who protected the Hyrule Royal Family.

They ruled over the crest of courage and were called the Family of Knights.
But when the Seven Sages' Seal was being done, they fought the Mazoku (Demon Clan) and almost all of them were destroyed.
The/A hero is supposed to appear from that Family of Knights.

So the concept of all the Link's being related to the Family of Knights was an NoA invention.

#88 Raien

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 04:04 PM

So the concept of all the Link's being related to the Family of Knights was an NoA invention.


NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! My faith in NOA translations is shattered!

#89 Duke Serkol

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 05:28 PM

Ah, quite unfortunate.

#90 Person

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 01:09 AM

So the concept of all the Link's being related to the Family of Knights was an NoA invention.


NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! My faith in NOA translations is shattered!


Of course all of the Links can't be related to the Knights. I think that Oracles Link and LoZ Link are in the same boat as TWW Link, not of any special bloodline, but chosen by fate nonetheless. The main jist of the translation was that the Link of ALttP is the last of the Knights' line (as the inscription in front of the Master Sword states).




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