100 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

Fortunately I don't have to prove anything to you as you're not the authority you sometimes make yourself out to be. Really it's getting annoying.

I wear the authority of "typical fan well-versed in objective facts regardless of interpretation." Just because I'm vocal doesn't mean I'm arrogant or that my ideas are better. I just find it important that if an idea isn't convincing, it's not really worth considering. Since your only retort in defense of the theory is "I don't have to prove anything to you", I think that makes it pretty clear the hypothesis doesn't have shit to stand on.

Even though the whole Hero's Shade thing is not a big issue with me (it does not affect the timeline either way) but since you're being so condescending about this, look at the blade of the Hero's Shade's sword. Look what hand he holds it in in the Gamecube version.

OH MAH GAWD HES HOLDIN' IT IN THE SAME HAND LINK DOES

Just like Link's Uncle. That and it's obviously for the player's benefit, what with him mirroring moves and such.

The blade itself MPS. Does it look familiar at all to you?

Here's the only image I could find.

http://www.zeldawiki...:Herospirit.jpg

Hard to make a direct comparison because that's not the Mastersword in Link's hand but the blade of the Hero's Shade is highly reminiscent of the Mastersword. The hilt is different of course but I'm not saying it's the same sword obviously. But the Mastersword's blade is pretty distinct and it's odd that they would make the Hero's Shade's sword's blade (gah so many possessive nouns) so simmilar if they weren't hinting at something.

Edited by SOAP, 19 May 2009 - 01:38 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I'm not seeing any resemblance that isn't superficial. It looks as much like the Master Sword as it does TP Link's starting sword. Again, for the purposes of mirroring. Besides, it's not like swords are particularly diverse in Hyrule, unless they're special, like the Biggoron sword.

Really, it's just complete and utter reaching.

[SOAP]

I'm not seeing any resemblance that isn't superficial. It looks as much like the Master Sword as it does TP Link's starting sword. Again, for the purposes of mirroring. Besides, it's not like swords are particularly diverse in Hyrule, unless they're special, like the Biggoron sword.

Really, it's just complete and utter reaching.

Hardly. The Mastersword's blade is very distinct and is easily recognizable. Same with the hilt. It's defiantly not a run of the mill Hyrulean sword. The blade of the Hero's Shade's sword does not look as much like Link's starting sword as it does the Mastersword because the Mastersword and Link's starting sword don't look the same either. The blade of Hero's Blade and the Mastersword are more simmilar to each other, albeit with different hilts, down to the Triforce emblem being in the same place on both swords, which is one of the Mastersword's distinguishing marks, than they are to any generic sword.

What's reaching is chalking everything up to mirroring.

Edited by SOAP, 19 May 2009 - 04:52 AM.

[Raien]

I'm siding with MPS on this one. Visual references are an incredibly unreliable source of timeline information, as they are not only dependant on individual perspective, but the reader must assume a context where there is none. Visual references are fine when used in conjunction with other evidence, but on their own, you can make them connote whatever you want them to connote. Lex used to do that quite a lot.

I mean, we have SOAP's assertion that the Hero's Shade's blade looks somewhat like the blade of the Master Sword. Are we supposed to believe that the Hero's Shade is carrying the Master Sword? No, because the blade and hilt are clearly different. But if it's not the Master Sword, then what properties does the sword have that says "the Hero's Shade was Link"? Are you saying that all Links carry a specific type of blade? Are you saying that the developers expected players to look past all the differences between the Master Sword and Hero's Shade's sword to see the similarities and say "Hey, the swords look alike in some ways. Therefore the Hero's Shade must be Link!"? It doesn't really work.

Edited by Raien, 19 May 2009 - 06:03 AM.

[SOAP]

I'm siding with MPS on this one. Visual references are an incredibly unreliable source of timeline information, as they are not only dependant on individual perspective, but the reader must assume a context where there is none. Visual references are fine when used in conjunction with other evidence, but on their own, you can make them connote whatever you want them to connote. Lex used to do that quite a lot.

I mean, we have SOAP's assertion that the Hero's Shade's blade looks somewhat like the blade of the Master Sword. Are we supposed to believe that the Hero's Shade is carrying the Master Sword? No, because the blade and hilt are clearly different. But if it's not the Master Sword, then what properties does the sword have that says "the Hero's Shade was Link"? Are you saying that all Links carry a specific type of blade? Are you saying that the developers expected players to look past all the differences between the Master Sword and Hero's Shade's sword to see the similarities and say "Hey, the swords look alike in some ways. Therefore the Hero's Shade must be Link!"? It doesn't really work.

When did I say they were the same sword?

[Raien]

When did I say they were the same sword?

You didn't, but my point is that Link possessing the Master Sword is a different iconography to the Hero's Shade possessing a sword with a blade that looks similar to the Master Sword. You are stretching to make the connection work (to make the image say what you want it to say, without any other supporting evidence).

Edited by Raien, 19 May 2009 - 06:17 AM.

[SOAP]

When did I say they were the same sword?

You didn't, but my point is that Link possessing the Master Sword is a different iconography to the Hero's Shade possessing a sword with a blade that looks similar to the Master Sword. You are stretching to make the connection work (to make image say what you want it to say).

I'm not saying that anymore than I'm saying that the Hero's Shade HAS to be OoT Link. In fact I stated earlier that my opinion is that the Hero's Shade is not Link but at least a part of Link's soul, mainly his regrets, made manifest into a warrior-like spirit, rather full blown ghost of Link. That is just opinion and I'm not saying that's evidence for anything. It' explanation for my beliefs. Nothing more. What I'm saying is that it can be interpreted that way and others have interpreted it that way as well. Does that alone prove anything, no. All I can do explain why I chose to interpret things a certain way.

That said, Nintendo doesn't need to hold our hands and explain every detail about every connection between every little thing Zelda related. Some things are left to fans to decide. Some things are just interpretations. To write off every interpretation because it's not "obvious enough" is in the same lines as those who think Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf had something other than the Triforce pieces in TP simply because the word Triforce never appears in the dialogue whatsoever. Not every interpretation is a stretch.

Edit: What I will apologize for though is speaking so matter-of-factly about the Hero's Shade/OoT Link connection as if it were canon which it's not and I'm sorry if I came across that way.

Edited by SOAP, 19 May 2009 - 07:25 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I'm not saying that anymore than I'm saying that the Hero's Shade HAS to be OoT Link. In fact I stated earlier that my opinion is that the Hero's Shade is not Link but at least a part of Link's soul, mainly his regrets, made manifest into a warrior-like spirit, rather full blown ghost of Link.

It's really quite irrelevant if it's Link's full or partial ghost, the arguments you presented are still incredibly flimsy and poorly-founded (and introducing new metaphysics like Link's regrets becoming a separate entity violates Mr. Occam's Razor).

That said, Nintendo doesn't need to hold our hands and explain every detail about every connection between every little thing Zelda related. Some things are left to fans to decide. Some things are just interpretations. To write off every interpretation because it's not "obvious enough" is in the same lines as those who think Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf had something other than the Triforce pieces in TP simply because the word Triforce never appears in the dialogue whatsoever. Not every interpretation is a stretch.

There's a difference between "Not obvious enough" and "Hey, his sword looks KINDA link Link's sword/The Master Sword, which was held by other Links. Despite the five differences, I spotted one similarity, therefore this guy is somehow related to a past Link!"

Edit: What I will apologize for though is speaking so matter-of-factly about the Hero's Shade/OoT Link connection as if it were canon which it's not and I'm sorry if I came across that way.

Thank you.

[Sir Turtlelot]

That said, Nintendo doesn't need to hold our hands and explain every detail about every connection between every little thing Zelda related. Some things are left to fans to decide. Some things are just interpretations. To write off every interpretation because it's not "obvious enough" is in the same lines as those who think Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf had something other than the Triforce pieces in TP simply because the word Triforce never appears in the dialogue whatsoever. Not every interpretation is a stretch.

SOAP, it's good to know that I'm not the only one who thinks this.

What I want to know is, what is so wrong with creating an explanation for a character Nintendo clearly did not. I could see this being a problem if it actually had an effect on the timeline's state, but this theory clearly does not. And with it being SOAP's opinion, then who are you to say whether it's right or wrong?

[MikePetersSucks]

Because the character has little to nothing in common with any incarnation of Link whatsoever, for one.

[SOAP]

Because the character has little to nothing in common with any incarnation of Link whatsoever, for one.

There a big difference between YOU not seeing any similarities and there being no similarities period. There are connections between the Hero's Shade and OoT Link, all which don't maen anything seperately and on their own of course. But there's just too many to throw out the case altogether.

[MikePetersSucks]

Like what? Being a hero? Being left-handed?

[Arturo]

Being of his bloodline, or being associated with the Prelude of Light and Requiem of Spirit...

[Average Gamer]

I'd also like to mention that the Hero's Shade knows some songs from Majora's Mask as well.

[Sparx401]

He also knows the bass part of the Twilight Princess theme, but that's not a song any character "hears" within the game. Are we to believe that the Hero's Shade breaks the fourth wall here? There's no precedence for that!

[Fin]

Yeah, I don't think the songs really count for evidence. They were just nods to previous games.

Though I do tend to think the shade is the legendary hero mentioned throughout the game. Considering he mentions himself to be a hero, and we're constantly told about this past hero, it just seems to fit. I mean, it's a story, not all the connections have to be perfectly spelled out.

[Sir Turtlelot]

Being that he is the only other person that we know of besides Link who is able to turn into a wolf, I'm pretty sure that counts as a connection.

I do agree with Fintin about the songs, they are just nods to previous games.

And even if the Hero's Shade had no connection to an particular incarnation of Link, it still doesn't justify you telling him his own opinion is wrong.

[SOAP]

Like what? Being a hero? Being left-handed?

Taken from the ZeldaWiki.org entry for Hero's Spirit:

Reasons supporting that the Hero's Spirit is an ancestor of Link:

1. At the end of his teachings, the Hero's Spirit said that he accepted the role as the hero long ago. This implies that he may be an earlier ancestor of Link. This theory is also supported by the Hero's Spirit saying the following to Link: "Go and do not falter, my child!" Though this in itself is not conclusive evidence, since many mentor-like characters in several stories refer to their young charges using the phrase "my child," it does serve to leave open the possibility of Link being his actual blood descendant.
2. Further more, evidence of the Hero's Spirit being an ancestor of Link is given just prior to learning the Mortal Draw. The Hero's Spirit said that the skills he taught Link were forgotten ways that "do not leave our bloodline"[1]. He implicitly used the word "our" instead of "my". This clearly indicates that Link and the Hero's Spirit are indeed related.
3. The Hero's Spirit was once one of the many great heroes of Hyrule[2]. It is still not known if his name was once Link as well, or perhaps even is the same man who became the Hero of Time. However, one thing that supports he may be the Hero of Time is that most of the songs used to summon the Golden Wolf are from Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, but why the Ballad of Gales is included is unknown.
4. In regards to physical appearance, the way the Hero's Spirit moves his feet is similar to the way Link moves his feet in Ocarina of Time when he targets an enemy.
5. Lastly, in both Wii and GameCube versions of Twilight Princess, Link and the Hero's Spirit both wield their swords in the same hand. The GameCube version (the version in which the game world was originally meant to be portrayed) shows Link to be left-handed. In every past game of the Zelda series, Link's sword-hand has always been his left one,[1] whereas there's been no other left-handed person to date in a Zelda game except in the Wii version of Twilight Princess.
6. It is also very worth noting the blade that the Hero's Spirit holds whenever he's seen in-game. The hilt is completely unrecognizable, although, along with the armor he wears, it appears archaic and much older than most of Link's gear was in Twilight Princess, or in Ocarina of Time for that matter. However, what makes this sword special is the blade: it is (or is at least an identical copy of) the blade of the Master Sword. Not only are the shapes and sizes consistent, but the two blades are the same right down to the etched emblem portraying the Triforce just above the hilt. Granted, the blade is worn, cracked, and tarnished, but when seen crossed with the real Master Sword during training, the fact is hard to ignore. Whether this is purely symbolic or is indicative of the Shade's true identity is still left undefined, but this glaring resemblance would imply that perhaps the Hero's Spirit was, in life, one of the few wielders of the Master Sword.

There are arguments against this theory, though:

1. While it is true that Link and the Hero's Spirit both wield their swords in the same hand, this proves nothing, seeing how Link's uncle in A Link to the Past also uses his sword on his left hand; therefore, Link is not the only left-handed person that has appeared in previous Zelda games.
2. The songs that summon the Golden Wolf are indeed songs that only Link from Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask knew. However, it is worth nothing that the Hero's Spirit does not teach Link the songs: on the contrary, it is Link as a wolf that howls them first, and the Golden Wolf responds to these howls.
3. After Link learns the final hidden skill from the Hero's Spirit, he mentions that although he accepted life as the hero, he could not convey the lessons of that life to those who came after. This might mean that the Hero's Shade failed in his mission and died (which Link from Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask did not fail in completing their missions); thus, he could not teach the skills to the next hero.
4. Finally, the hidden skills that the Hero's Spirit teaches to Link were not skills that were known by a previous Link, which means that these techniques could have possibly been made by another warrior.

For each arguement for the Hero's Shade being OoT Link, there's a valid counter-arguement. I'm not denying that. However, if it were just one or even two or three of these circumstances, I'd agree with you and just chalk it up to gameplay, easter eggs, artistic license, overspeculation, ect. However, it's too many connections for me, as weak as they are separately, for me to throw out the possibility altogether.

[MikePetersSucks]

Being of his bloodline, or being associated with the Prelude of Light and Requiem of Spirit...

Link has Uncles and Grandpas. For all we know, the Hero's Shade is TP Link's Papa.

Plus, the Hero's Shade never really proves he knows these songs. TP Link sings them and the golden wolf sings them right back.

Though I do tend to think the shade is the legendary hero mentioned throughout the game. Considering he mentions himself to be a hero, and we're constantly told about this past hero, it just seems to fit. I mean, it's a story, not all the connections have to be perfectly spelled out.

Hyrule has more than one hero.

Being that he is the only other person that we know of besides Link who is able to turn into a wolf, I'm pretty sure that counts as a connection.

Being that he's a ghost, I don't think the shape he really takes means all that much. I mean, all the wolf form really is is a reflection of Link's heart and heroism, ala LTTP Link's bunny form. And since the Hero's Shade is a foil of TP Link regardless of his identity...

For each arguement for the Hero's Shade being OoT Link, there's a valid counter-arguement. I'm not denying that. However, if it were just one or even two or three of these circumstances, I'd agree with you and just chalk it up to gameplay, easter eggs, artistic license, overspeculation, ect. However, it's too many connections for me, as weak as they are separately, for me to throw out the possibility altogether.

I'm not denying that the Hero's Shade is an ancestor of Link, that's pretty clear. It's just OOT Link that I'm skeptical of, and unfortunately, these arguments are terribly poor and flimsy, I mean, "The way OOT Link shuffles his feet?" Well then, OOT Link is also Orca from Outset Island.

[Person]

I don't know why you guys are arguing over this when it doesn't really affect the timeline at all. It's one of those things that is just up to the player's imagination. I personally like to think that it's OoT Link, but I'm not going to say that that interpretation is canon. But what exactly prevents it from being OoT Link?

[SOAP]

I'm not denying that the Hero's Shade is an ancestor of Link, that's pretty clear. It's just OOT Link that I'm skeptical of, and unfortunately, these arguments are terribly poor and flimsy, I mean, "The way OOT Link shuffles his feet?" Well then, OOT Link is also Orca from Outset Island.

People, like me, just like the idea of it being OoT Link because they like the idea that TP Link is related to to OoT Link. Does it HAVE to be OoT Link. Not really. But in the minds of fans it comes a somewhat tangible connection. If the Hero's Sahde is in TP Link's bloodline and if the Hero Shade is OoT Link, then it's a connection.

I don't know why you guys are arguing over this when it doesn't really affect the timeline at all. It's one of those things that is just up to the player's imagination. I personally like to think that it's OoT Link, but I'm not going to say that that interpretation is canon. But what exactly prevents it from being OoT Link?

I'm not saying it's canon either. However, this whole fiasco is partially my fault for talking about the Hero's Shade being OoT like it was alraedy proven fact. It's not. But it's an opinion I like.

Edited by SOAP, 22 May 2009 - 12:57 AM.

[Fin]

Though I do tend to think the shade is the legendary hero mentioned throughout the game. Considering he mentions himself to be a hero, and we're constantly told about this past hero, it just seems to fit. I mean, it's a story, not all the connections have to be perfectly spelled out.

Hyrule has more than one hero.

My point was that in this particular story there's one past hero consistently being brought up, just as there's one heroic mentor figure consistently appearing. It just seems to make sense from a storyline point of view to conflate the two. <.< Well, that's my reasoning anyway. I agree with the others, this is kind of a pointless thing to argue over.

[SOAP]

In all honesty how is the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time any different from from fans believing Link, Zelda, Malon, ect all reincarnate when nothing of the sort has been suggested by the games or the creators. The only direct reference to reincarnation was Ganondorf in FSA, but taht's Ganondorf who always comes back one way or another and FSA's story is a very recent addition to the the Zelda mythos. Fans have speculated that reincarnation is a part of how Hyrule operates long before that. It hasn't been proven yet it's what works for fans for lack of a better alternative. For some it just works taht the Hero's Shade is OoT Link, because it connects TP Link to OoT Link since it's hinted that the Hero's shade shares a bloodline with TP Link. TP Link being a decendant of OoT Link, while not really implied, just makes sense and it explain how the the ToC got from OoT Link to TP Link. We don't know if Triforce pieces are passed genetically but for lack of a better alternative, the assumption works.

[MikePetersSucks]

Even then, it's not really all that solid. I can bring up Japanese script semantics to break this apart, but it'd be much simpler to point how that if TP is on the child timeline, about half of these tales, items, etc. can't be attributed to OOT Link, like the tunic, the bow, the Zora tunic...

[SOAP]

Even then, it's not really all that solid. I can bring up Japanese script semantics to break this apart, but it'd be much simpler to point how that if TP is on the child timeline, about half of these tales, items, etc. can't be attributed to OOT Link, like the tunic, the bow, the Zora tunic...

Which why I never raelly got placing TP in the child timeline. But even one were to disregard creator comments--which I don't even if I disagree with them--TP doesn't work too well in the same timeline as TWW. In any acse, the child Link would have eventually grown up and I always interepretted him returning to Hyrule in MM's ending, so it's not a stretch to say he had slightly different adventures as an adult in the the laternate timeline. He had to anyways to explain things like bow and arrow description saying it was used by OoT Link to save the Gorons and the Zora Tunic supposedly tailored by the Zora King for OoT Link.

[MikePetersSucks]

In any acse, the child Link would have eventually grown up and I always interepretted him returning to Hyrule in MM's ending, so it's not a stretch to say he had slightly different adventures as an adult in the the laternate timeline. He had to anyways to explain things like bow and arrow description saying it was used by OoT Link to save the Gorons and the Zora Tunic supposedly tailored by the Zora King for OoT Link.

That strikes me as fairly contrived. The fact that OOT isn't proven to be responsible for the events attributed to him suggests to me that it's probably not him, and/or it's not supposed to matter.

[Person]

In any acse, the child Link would have eventually grown up and I always interepretted him returning to Hyrule in MM's ending, so it's not a stretch to say he had slightly different adventures as an adult in the the laternate timeline. He had to anyways to explain things like bow and arrow description saying it was used by OoT Link to save the Gorons and the Zora Tunic supposedly tailored by the Zora King for OoT Link.

That strikes me as fairly contrived. The fact that OOT isn't proven to be responsible for the events attributed to him suggests to me that it's probably not him, and/or it's not supposed to matter.

I do think that the items attributed to the Legendary Hero are those of OoT Link, he just didn't acquire them the same way as he did in the Adult Timeline. FOr instance, maybe the bow was the Hero's Bow he got in Termina, and maybe the Zora King made the tunic in response to some other adventure Link had. We know that he had become legendary in the child timeline by MM's opening, and he somehow got ahold of a new sword and shield in between OoT and MM.

[SOAP]

In any acse, the child Link would have eventually grown up and I always interepretted him returning to Hyrule in MM's ending, so it's not a stretch to say he had slightly different adventures as an adult in the the laternate timeline. He had to anyways to explain things like bow and arrow description saying it was used by OoT Link to save the Gorons and the Zora Tunic supposedly tailored by the Zora King for OoT Link.

That strikes me as fairly contrived. The fact that OOT isn't proven to be responsible for the events attributed to him suggests to me that it's probably not him, and/or it's not supposed to matter.

Okay, so what you're saying is TP, a game that makes many obvious references to OoT, is officially stated to be a sequel to OoT thus confirming the connection to OoT even more, makes references to a legendary Hero that isn't OoT Link? And I'm being contrived? Okay.

[Duke Serkol]

he somehow got ahold of a new sword and shield in between OoT and MM.

Actually, the sword he starts out with in MM is called Kokiri sword, so I'm guessing he just had it reforged...

[Billy Goat]

Actually, the sword he starts out with in MM is called Kokiri sword, so I'm guessing he just had it reforged...

Yup.

http://zelda.wikia.c...ki/Kokiri_Sword

Edited by Billy Goat, 24 May 2009 - 07:49 PM.