Jump to content

IPBoard Styles©Fisana

Photo

where does the triforce go??


  • Please log in to reply
94 replies to this topic

#31 Evilsbane

Evilsbane

    Scout

  • Members
  • 190 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 16 March 2009 - 04:11 PM

Plotholes up the wazoo. "Hey um...you know how we said Ganon seized the whole Triforce, and these seven human old guys sealed him up with the help of the knights of Hyrule? Well it turns out he only got one Triforce piece, there was only one guy helping them, and they were pretty much all chicks from different races. But everyone somehow forgot about that, Ganon seized the other two Triforces with...plot magic and the family trees of the Sages somehow turned into pure Hylian blood. Shut up, OOT is the Seal War we said so!"

They were never 'Wise Men' in the original Japanese. The word was always 'Sages'. This was clarified in the GBA port. So the bit about human old guys, I'm assuming, is based solely on the picture in the intro?

Right, rising from all three of them. As opposed to the entire thing being in a room right behind Ganon's fucking throne room which he's been sitting in for centuries. Unless he totally had no goddamned idea the Triforce was behind him, it makes no sense. Also, the game says Ganon has the Triforce, you lose.

It doesn't say how much of the Triforce he has. The Essence of the Triforce tells Link that if an evil person touches the Triforce they don't get their wish properly. OoT clarifies this by explaining that this occurs because the Triforce splits when one with an imbalanced heart touches it.

In OOT? The whole taking down a castle thing, and corrupting some temples, and recruiting monsters, and killing those that oppose him, etc. Basically acting like a real warlord who happened to have divine powers. As opposed to LTTP Ganon who made a wish and got the entire Sacred Realm magically transformed into his ideal world at the tip of a hat.

So all the stuff that happened while Link was asleep in the Sacred Realm, we never see Ganondorf doing and you're assuming he did manually? That stuff?

If extracanonical materials, and the implications of AOL are anything to go by, than the Triforce of Power and the Triforce of Wisdom were just floating on some pedestals in the castle somewhere. It's pretty obvious that in the LOZ/AOL era the Triforce pieces aren't entering people's bodies.

Why not?

#32 Showsni

Showsni

    The Fallen

  • Members
  • 13,386 posts
  • Location:Gloucester
  • Gender:Male
  • England

Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:29 PM

Trying to deny OoT=IW inconsistencies really doesn't work. There are just too many of them. Maybe you can explain one or two away by convoluted reasoning, but it hardly helps your cause; the mere fact that you need to jump through so many hoops to make a sensible narrative out of it shows that it really can't be canon.

A sage, in English, is a wise old person. That the seven in ALttP are Hylians is pretty obvious; they have Hylian descendants, they are depicted as Hylian, we're told the Hylians are a wise ancient race... Gorons, Gerudo, Sea Zoras, Kokiri and Sheikah don't even exist in ALttP. And the king is clearly one of the seven sages.

Ganon gets the whole triforce in ALttP and keeps it until his death. Fact. Trying to argue against this is just ignoring the game, basically.


#33 Evilsbane

Evilsbane

    Scout

  • Members
  • 190 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:44 PM

Trying to deny OoT=IW inconsistencies really doesn't work. There are just too many of them. Maybe you can explain one or two away by convoluted reasoning, but it hardly helps your cause; the mere fact that you need to jump through so many hoops to make a sensible narrative out of it shows that it really can't be canon.

Convoluted reasoning? Is that what you call the word 'Sages' replacing 'Wise Men'?

A sage, in English, is a wise old person. That the seven in ALttP are Hylians is pretty obvious; they have Hylian descendants, they are depicted as Hylian, we're told the Hylians are a wise ancient race... Gorons, Gerudo, Sea Zoras, Kokiri and Sheikah don't even exist in ALttP. And the king is clearly one of the seven sages.

The king? How do you figure?

Ganon gets the whole triforce in ALttP and keeps it until his death. Fact. Trying to argue against this is just ignoring the game, basically.

Fortunately, I'm not alone.

In the SNES edition game, the story "Long ago, there was a war called the Imprisoning War" was passed along. A name in the Imprisoning War era is the name of a Town later.



#34 Raien

Raien

    Famicom

  • Members
  • 4,833 posts
  • Location:Luton
  • Gender:Male
  • United Kingdom

Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:53 PM

Convoluted reasoning? Is that what you call the word 'Sages' replacing 'Wise Men'?


I wouldn't say so. "Nitpicking" would be a better word to describe your argument here. The fact that the Sage descendants are all Hylian is conclusive proof that their ancestors were Hylian. Unless you want to argue that the Sages can magically change race or something. Good luck proving that theory.

The king? How do you figure?


Because Zelda is a Sage descendant, which means her ancestor must be royalty.

Fortunately, I'm not alone.

In the SNES edition game, the story "Long ago, there was a war called the Imprisoning War" was passed along. A name in the Imprisoning War era is the name of a Town later.


Yes, everyone and their dog is aware of that quote thanks to Lex shoving it down everyone's faces. No one here believes that the quote is still relevant after Nintendo killed the connection by flooding and destroying Hyrule.

#35 Evilsbane

Evilsbane

    Scout

  • Members
  • 190 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:18 PM

I wouldn't say so. "Nitpicking" would be a better word to describe your argument here. The fact that the Sage descendants are all Hylian is conclusive proof that their ancestors were Hylian. Unless you want to argue that the Sages can magically change race or something. Good luck proving that theory.

Yeah because descendants of Sages have always been of the same race:
Posted Image->Posted Image
Posted Image->Posted Image

You're right, I have absolutely no chance there.

Because Zelda is a Sage descendant, which means her ancestor must be royalty.

Like a previous Princess Zelda?
Posted Image
Oh no, that wouldn't make ANY sense.

Yes, everyone and their dog is aware of that quote thanks to Lex shoving it down everyone's faces. No one here believes that the quote is still relevant after Nintendo killed the connection by flooding and destroying Hyrule.

Sounds like Lex does. And I do. And Toru Osawa does. Who are you, again?

#36 Raien

Raien

    Famicom

  • Members
  • 4,833 posts
  • Location:Luton
  • Gender:Male
  • United Kingdom

Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:26 PM

You're right, I have absolutely no chance there.


1) It is stated that the Kokiri were transformed into Koroks.
2) I personally believe that the Zoras were forcibly transformed into Rito by the gods, to prevent them from disturbing Hyrule's seal. I reject the theory that they somehow "evolved". And no, don't bother to show me the "before we evolved wings" quote because that phrased is used in a completely different context. It refers to magic, not the process of survival by adaptation. The process of scientific evolution is completely contradictory to the nature of Zelda mythology, as I have explained in my "symbolism" article linked in my signature.

Once again, show me context that implies a change of race from OoT to ALttP. I call bullshit otherwise.

Because Zelda is a Sage descendant, which means her ancestor must be royalty.]Oh no, that wouldn't make ANY sense.


I never said it couldn't be Zelda. But that doesn't mean it isn't the King.

Sounds like Lex does. And I do. And Toru Osawa does. Who are you, again?


Ask Toru Osawa what he thinks now that Hyrule was destroyed in a flood, and then get back to me.

Btw, everyone who has theorised around Lex for more than a year is fully aware that the guy makes up bullshit ALL THE TIME. I've got a new favourite line in my signature, if you're willing to take a gander downwards. And Lex is known to have a habit of ignoring refuting evidence and pretending the debates never took place. You really don't gain anything for yourself by arguing that Lex has an entire theory dedicated to propping up a ten-year old outdated quote.

Edited by Raien, 16 March 2009 - 07:38 PM.


#37 Evilsbane

Evilsbane

    Scout

  • Members
  • 190 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:41 PM

1) It is stated that the Kokiri were transformed into Koroks.
2) I personally believe that the Zoras were forcibly transformed into Rito by the gods, to prevent them from disturbing Hyrule's seal. I reject the theory that they just magically "evolved". And no, don't bother to show me the "before we evolved wings" quote because that phrased is used in a completely different context. It refers to magic, not the process of survival by adaptation.

Once again, show me context that implies a change of race from OoT to ALttP. I call bullshit otherwise.

Now who's nitpicking? I've shown you examples of Sage's race changing. The example takes place on the Adult Timeline, which presumably places it between OoT and ALttP. But you call bullshit because one is CONFIRMED, and the other happened due to magic? The Maidens of ALttP don't even claim to be Hylian, they just look human.

I never said it couldn't be Zelda. But that doesn't mean it isn't the King.

No, I think you'll find that you said it was 'clearly' the King.

Ask Toru Osawa what he thinks now that Hyrule was destroyed in a flood, and then get back to me.

I would, but then you'd probably tell me he's changed his mind in the five minutes since I asked. He's stated his position; the onus is on you to prove otherwise, not me to prove it again.

Btw, everyone who has theorised around Lex for more than a year is fully aware that the guy makes up bullshit ALL THE TIME. I've got a new favourite line in my signature, if you're willing to take a gander downwards. And Lex is known to have a habit of ignoring refuting evidence and pretending the debates never took place. You really don't gain anything for yourself by arguing that Lex has an entire theory dedicated to propping up a ten-year old outdated quote.

Best ad hominem ever - disproving my argument not simply by discrediting me, but someone who agrees with me. A+

#38 Raien

Raien

    Famicom

  • Members
  • 4,833 posts
  • Location:Luton
  • Gender:Male
  • United Kingdom

Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:56 PM

Right, I'm not wasting my time on this anymore. I swear I've spent half my life on the internet trying to explain context to people who don't want to listen, and I'm sick of people thinking they sound clever when they've just made points that require even further context to explain why they're stupid on reflection. Not this time, I'm done.

#39 Average Gamer

Average Gamer

    Master

  • Members
  • 818 posts
  • Location:The Haunted Wasteland

Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:57 PM

Now who's nitpicking?


You are, because Makar and Medli were of the same race as the previous MS Sages. Kokiri and Koroks are the same thing in different forms, and Ritos are transformed/evolved/whatever Zoras. They kept the Sagehood in the racial bloodline.

Also, in ALttP, if I'm not mistaken, the bloodline of the Sages mentioned was that of an actual bloodline, not a "lol you randomly qualify" thing.

The Maidens of ALttP don't even claim to be Hylian, they just look human.


They claim to have Hylian blood at some point. I'll find a quote, hold on.

#40 Evilsbane

Evilsbane

    Scout

  • Members
  • 190 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 16 March 2009 - 08:11 PM

I've got one:

Link, thanks to you, I was
able to escape the clutches of
the evil monsters. Thank you!
They say the Hylian people
mastered mysterious powers,
as did the seven sages.
But the blood of the Hylia has
grown thin over time. And we
who carry the blood of the
sages do not possess our
ancestors' powers, either.

Interesting how they talk about Hylians and then talk about the Sages as if they're separate.

You are, because Makar and Medli were of the same race as the previous MS Sages. Kokiri and Koroks are the same thing in different forms, and Ritos are transformed/evolved/whatever Zoras. They kept the Sagehood in the racial bloodline.

Also, in ALttP, if I'm not mistaken, the bloodline of the Sages mentioned was that of an actual bloodline, not a "lol you randomly qualify" thing.

So TWW's Sages are descendants of the OoT Sages but look nothing like them, and ALttP's descendants don't look like them either? So what's the problem?

Edited by Evilsbane, 16 March 2009 - 08:17 PM.


#41 Average Gamer

Average Gamer

    Master

  • Members
  • 818 posts
  • Location:The Haunted Wasteland

Posted 16 March 2009 - 08:26 PM

Interesting how they talk about Hylians and then talk about the Sages as if they're separate.


The Sages are depicted as Hylians in the intro of the game, and the Maidens are referred to as the actual bloodline descendants of the Sages. I'll try to find other quotes.

So TWW's Sages are descendants of the OoT Sages but look nothing like them, and ALttP's descendants don't look like them either?


Lol wut?

I was pointing out that Sages keep the role of Sage in their racial bloodline. In other words, a Zora Sage chooses a Zora to fill in for them, a Goron Sage chooses a Goron to fill in for them, etc.

So what's the problem?


Unless you believe that every species in Hyrule suddenly transformed into Hylians, the literal Sage bloodline from ALttP doesn't work.

#42 Raien

Raien

    Famicom

  • Members
  • 4,833 posts
  • Location:Luton
  • Gender:Male
  • United Kingdom

Posted 16 March 2009 - 08:30 PM

Aren't TWW's Sages supposed to be following a spiritual bloodline anyway? At least that's what MPS has said (with his superior understanding of Japanese mythology).

#43 Evilsbane

Evilsbane

    Scout

  • Members
  • 190 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 16 March 2009 - 08:34 PM

Aren't TWW's Sages supposed to be following a spiritual bloodline anyway? At least that's what MPS has said (with his superior understanding of Japanese mythology).

Ah, the famous 'successors' translation. 'Successors' was also used in the japanese ALttP.

The Sages are depicted as Hylians in the intro of the game, and the Maidens are referred to as the actual bloodline descendants of the Sages. I'll try to find other quotes.

The Sages are depicted as robes. Pick out a single distinguishing feature under those hoods and I'll give you a cookie.

I was pointing out that Sages keep the role of Sage in their racial bloodline. In other words, a Zora Sage chooses a Zora to fill in for them, a Goron Sage chooses a Goron to fill in for them, etc.

And eventually the situation became: for 'Zora', read 'Rito'. Further evolution isn't impossible, or even unlikely.

Unless you believe that every species in Hyrule suddenly transformed into Hylians, the literal Sage bloodline from ALttP doesn't work.

Where does the game refer to the Sages or their descendants as Hylians?

Edited by Evilsbane, 16 March 2009 - 08:42 PM.


#44 Raien

Raien

    Famicom

  • Members
  • 4,833 posts
  • Location:Luton
  • Gender:Male
  • United Kingdom

Posted 16 March 2009 - 08:37 PM

Aren't TWW's Sages supposed to be following a spiritual bloodline anyway? At least that's what MPS has said (with his superior understanding of Japanese mythology).

Ah, the famous 'successors' translation. 'Successors' was also used in the japanese ALttP.


I'm not referring to a translation. I'm referring to MPS's specific interpretation of the relationship between OoT's Sages and TWW's Sages, which does not necessarily apply to the descendants of ALttP's Sages, as they are not Sages themselves. Of course, it would be nice to have MPS clarify his position here (looks out for him on the horizon).

#45 Average Gamer

Average Gamer

    Master

  • Members
  • 818 posts
  • Location:The Haunted Wasteland

Posted 16 March 2009 - 08:45 PM

Aren't TWW's Sages supposed to be following a spiritual bloodline anyway? At least that's what MPS has said (with his superior understanding of Japanese mythology).


Yeah, but even then they keep it within the racial bloodline.

Anyway, found a quote regarding the ALttP Sage bloodline. This is the commentary from Zelda Legends' ALttP game comparison translation:

子孫 (しそん, shison) means descendant, posterity, or offspring. Note its relationship to 一族 (ichizoku), which means family or household. This word is used to describe the family of sages, the family of Knights, the Goron people, etc. In OoT Ganondorf uses this word when he says he will exterminate everyones' descendants. He's actually promising to wipe out their respective families. So descendant, in this context, seems to mean a literal blood relation within a family.


The bloodline of the Sages from ALttP and its backstory is an actual bloodline, meaning that the original Sages who sealed Ganon in the IW had to be Hylian.

The Sages are depicted as robes. Pick out a single distinguishing feature under those hoods and I'll give you a cookie.


Well, other than them all having human hands (and I think white beards), you can faintly see Hylian ears. I gotta go, so I'll check later.

Edited by Average Gamer, 16 March 2009 - 09:06 PM.


#46 Evilsbane

Evilsbane

    Scout

  • Members
  • 190 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:02 PM

The bloodline of the Sages from ALttP and its backstory is an actual bloodline, meaning that the original Sages who sealed Ganon in the IW had to be Hylian.

It MEANS that the IW Sages were the ancestors of the ALttP maidens. As I've BEEN SAYING, the ancestors and descendants may look significantly different due to the passage of time and evolution, etc. Besides, most of the Sages WERE human - there was a Gerudo, a Sheikah and two Hylians (well, I assume Rauru was a Hylian). That leaves Gorons, Zora/Rito and Kokiri/Koroks. I don't think anyone will argue against a Kokiri/Korok's descendant possibly looking human (Kokiri looked human and TWW says they can change form). So that leaves Gorons and Zora/Rito. The Rito look human enough to me that the one of the maidens in ALttP might just be a young Rito, so that leaves Gorons. So the argument is about whether or not a Goron descendant can look human.

The part that really bugs me about all this is that the reaction I'm getting is 'OH NO! Your theory is ridiculous'.

Edited by Evilsbane, 16 March 2009 - 09:07 PM.


#47 Duke Serkol

Duke Serkol

    Famicom

  • ZL Staff
  • 1,413 posts

Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:04 PM

Plotholes up the wazoo. "Hey um...you know how we said Ganon seized the whole Triforce, and these seven human old guys sealed him up with the help of the knights of Hyrule? Well it turns out he only got one Triforce piece, there was only one guy helping them, and they were pretty much all chicks from different races. But everyone somehow forgot about that, Ganon seized the other two Triforces with...plot magic and the family trees of the Sages somehow turned into pure Hylian blood. Shut up, OOT is the Seal War we said so!"

Awesome way to put it! :lol:

If extracanonical materials, and the implications of AOL are anything to go by, than the Triforce of Power and the Triforce of Wisdom were just floating on some pedestals in the castle somewhere. It's pretty obvious that in the LOZ/AOL era the Triforce pieces aren't entering people's bodies.

It's certainly possible, likely even, but I wouldn't call it obvious.
And extracanonical matters nothing, otherwise Link would have the Triforce of Courage within him.

the king is clearly one of the seven sages.

Wait, what? Where did that come from? How could the king order the seven sages to seal away Ganon if he was one of them? He simply would have led them in doing so.
As it has been said, it would seem more likely that his daughter was one.

#48 Average Gamer

Average Gamer

    Master

  • Members
  • 818 posts
  • Location:The Haunted Wasteland

Posted 16 March 2009 - 10:56 PM

It MEANS that the IW Sages were the ancestors of the ALttP maidens.


And from the looks of it, the IW Sages were Hylian too.

As I've BEEN SAYING, the ancestors and descendants may look significantly different due to the passage of time and evolution, etc.


For your stance to work though, every race in Hyrule would suddenly need to become Hylians for no reason in the slightest.

I don't think anyone will argue against a Kokiri/Korok's descendant possibly looking human (Kokiri looked human and TWW says they can change form).


Kokiri are eternal prepubescent children. The maidens all appear to be somewhere in their teenage years, particularly Zelda (thanks to the official artwork of her).

The Rito look human enough to me that the one of the maidens in ALttP might just be a young Rito,


No beak, and they all look like humans with Hylian ears.

so that leaves Gorons. So the argument is about whether or not a Goron descendant can look human.


Gorons are giants made out of stone. Goron hair (assuming that it is hair and isn't stylish stone) is light brown, sticks up, and basically doesn't look like human hair at all. There's no way one of the Maidens is a Goron.

#49 MikePetersSucks

MikePetersSucks

    Actual Japanese Person

  • ZL Staff
  • 4,174 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 March 2009 - 12:08 AM

They were never 'Wise Men' in the original Japanese. The word was always 'Sages'. This was clarified in the GBA port. So the bit about human old guys, I'm assuming, is based solely on the picture in the intro?


They're highly implied to be hylian old men either way you slice it. Hell, a Sage is typically a smart old guy, which is probably what the word meant before it got retconned by OOT to be a spiritual plane of being. Everything before OOT, and everything after OOT, rely on different mythologies.

It doesn't say how much of the Triforce he has. The Essence of the Triforce tells Link that if an evil person touches the Triforce they don't get their wish properly. OoT clarifies this by explaining that this occurs because the Triforce splits when one with an imbalanced heart touches it.


The Essence of the Triforce said no such thing.

So all the stuff that happened while Link was asleep in the Sacred Realm, we never see Ganondorf doing and you're assuming he did manually? That stuff?


It took him seven years to get as far as he did and he's still not done taking over. Clearly, things did not magically transform at the top of the hat. He had to use his Triforce piece as support to get things the old fashioned way. People with only 1/3 of the Golden Power don't get a wish.

Why not?


It wasn't invented yet, for one. Two, they're depicted as fictional objects in all related media. Three, the Triforce pieces can be collected from dead people's bodies, when both TP and TWW outright state, and imply, respectively, that killing someone while a Triforce is inside them sends it to a new owner or back to the Sacred Realm.

Aren't TWW's Sages supposed to be following a spiritual bloodline anyway? At least that's what MPS has said (with his superior understanding of Japanese mythology).


First off, the TWW Sages are not the same set as the OOT Sages, so they are nigh-entirely irrelevant. And the Japanese word for "Descendant" in the TWW context does indeed refer to a spiritual sense of heredity. It's earliest recorded usage is to describe Abe-no-Seimei's "descendants" of Abe-no-Yasunori and onward, even though Abe-no-Seimei was never with a woman and never sired children. It is generally agreed by scholars that he either passed on his powers spiritually, or in some wilder interpretations, created a homunculus or similar creature to be his son.

And also, it's impossible for there to be a Hylian descendant of a Kokiri Sage because Kokiri do not sexually reproduce with each other, much less with non-Kokiri. Therefore, the theory is BUNK. Move along people, Evilsbane loses, again.

#50 Impossible

Impossible

    Mage

  • Members
  • 586 posts

Posted 17 March 2009 - 03:55 AM

Best ad hominem ever - disproving my argument not simply by discrediting me, but someone who agrees with me. A+


That's not really ad hominem. In fact, I'd say what posters such as yourself did on ZU is closer to ad hominem: making baseless accusations about my reasons for posting something or my mentality in judging evidence, and using that in place of a legitimate argument. (For the record, I couldn't have judged evidence with a bias towards a placement in that case, since I came up with the placement IN LIGHT OF that evidence, which has objective value. Certain biased theories/evidence about TMC and FSA that are popular over there require this kind of subjective viewpoint of looking for a way to prove something based on an unrelated desire (i.e. OoT as the IW), giving them an inherent bias.) Attacking someone's shitty methods, theories and principles is fair game, and you shouldn't have mentioned Lex if you weren't implying his opinion was worth crap.

Context is explained in detail in my TMC topic from a year ago, if you haven't read that yet, for god's sake, just get on it. Doesn't need to be done again.

Personally, I admire the reasoning that ALttP's SNES manual no longer counts and only the GBA one does, even though:

- ALttP GBA's manual never mentions the IW at any point.
- Both convey, ultimately, an identical story that is not consistent with OoT, even though ALttP GBA was after OoT's release
- ALttP GBA had no fucking choice but to make these changes to fit into the normal size of a manual story, as they couldn't have the full one anymore.
- Due to that need, they simply made the manual story an exact reiteration of the intro story. Which also never mentions Ganon. Ganon's role in the story was a secret up until the maidens reveal his existence, as Agahnim was supposedly the villain before then. So it's not explained at the start.
- Ganon's role in those exact events of the manual/intro is explicitly detailed by the maidens, and it's clear that there's only one Ganon being referenced, who never left the SR after entering.

That first point actually also contributes to my belief that the whole argument has been disgustingly distorted and we should ACTUALLY be thinking of "ALttP's backstory", not an independent event - i.e., it's not a contradiction to assume that the IW happened, because ALttP factually states that it happened in a certain way. Besides, that certain way has never occurred in any game, yet is necessary for the proper circumstances of ALttP to exist. And it could only have been after FSA. (Obviously all the evidence in FSA that the IW hasn't happened yet was meant to be because it WAS the IW, but we're forced to push the IW to a later event now.)

Edited by Impossible, 17 March 2009 - 04:05 AM.


#51 Arturo

Arturo

    I swear this game is Adults Only!

  • ZL Staff
  • 3,356 posts
  • Location:Un lugar de la Mancha
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 March 2009 - 06:04 AM

Btw, everyone who has theorised around Lex for more than a year is fully aware that the guy makes up bullshit ALL THE TIME. I've got a new favourite line in my signature, if you're willing to take a gander downwards. And Lex is known to have a habit of ignoring refuting evidence and pretending the debates never took place. You really don't gain anything for yourself by arguing that Lex has an entire theory dedicated to propping up a ten-year old outdated quote.

Oh please, don't say bad things about the dead: they can't defend themselves.

And trying to argue that way back in 1991, the sages were not supposed to be wise old Hylian men is just plain ridiculous, as is the belief that the destruction of Hyrule can happen inbetween the Imprisoning War and ALttP.

But whatever suit your beautiful theories, whatever...

#52 Raien

Raien

    Famicom

  • Members
  • 4,833 posts
  • Location:Luton
  • Gender:Male
  • United Kingdom

Posted 17 March 2009 - 08:50 AM

The part that really bugs me about all this is that the reaction I'm getting is 'OH NO! Your theory is ridiculous'.


Well, what do you expect? You've twisted and butchered every reference into something barely recognisable from the source material. And then you hold fast to the one quote that has been entirely broken by the destruction of Hyrule in TWW. This is pure, unadulterated Lex-logic, and everyone here has debated enough with Lex to know how horribly bad it is. If Uwe Boll wrote a Zelda timeline theory, it would be a scene-by-scene adaptation of Lex's theory and win a Razzie for "worst script".

Edited by Raien, 17 March 2009 - 08:51 AM.


#53 Duke Serkol

Duke Serkol

    Famicom

  • ZL Staff
  • 1,413 posts

Posted 17 March 2009 - 11:08 AM

Obviously all the evidence in FSA that the IW hasn't happened yet was meant to be because it WAS the IW, but we're forced to push the IW to a later event now.

That's interesting. Do you have this possible course of events written in more detail somewhere (here on the board, on some website)? I would be curious to hear how you have the events of FSA's ending lead into an imprisoning war just like that of ALttP's bakstory (is it the same Ganon the breaks free? Is it another reincarnation?)

#54 MikePetersSucks

MikePetersSucks

    Actual Japanese Person

  • ZL Staff
  • 4,174 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 March 2009 - 11:33 AM

I don't know the details, but apparently the original storyboard called for FSA Ganon to be sealed inside the Sacred Realm. The rest should fall into place.

#55 CID Farwin

CID Farwin

    Disciple

  • Members
  • 2,935 posts
  • Location:At the threshold
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 March 2009 - 04:53 PM

FSA is not the Imprisoning war any more than OoT is.

Unless you go by what they were doing before the game was released, in which case both OoT and FSA are the imprisoning war, ALttP goes after OoT's adult ending, and OoT->TP->TWW.

The Sages are depicted as robes. Pick out a single distinguishing feature under those hoods and I'll give you a cookie.

One's short. Gimme cookie.

If you people insist on nitpicking the differences between ALttP's IW and OoT, then you better not have at any point discredited the inconsistencies yourselves. OoT came out after ALttP and therefore takes presidence. Just because they're both old doesn't change that. The only things standing in the way of a OoT-IW connection are TP and TWW. That's what people should argue. Not the stuff that was glossed over when OoT first came out. Yes, the inconsistencies definitely hold up to the context of OoT, which was made to be the IW.

And there's more people than those you love to so badmouth that believe that Ganondorf didn't have the Whole Triforce in ALttP.

*sigh* this is another reason I stopped theorizing.

Edited by CID Farwin, 17 March 2009 - 04:54 PM.


#56 Raien

Raien

    Famicom

  • Members
  • 4,833 posts
  • Location:Luton
  • Gender:Male
  • United Kingdom

Posted 17 March 2009 - 05:02 PM

Farwin, why do you think Nintendo would use TWW to break OoT from ALttP if not for the fact that there are severe inconsistencies between the two games? Despite that Nintendo did originally intend OoT to be the IW, I wouldn't be surprised if their incorporation of the S&D story did not throw off this original suggestion.

Edited by Raien, 17 March 2009 - 05:07 PM.


#57 MikePetersSucks

MikePetersSucks

    Actual Japanese Person

  • ZL Staff
  • 4,174 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 March 2009 - 05:05 PM

FSA is not the Imprisoning war any more than OoT is.


Yea, no shit? The idea was dropped in development.

#58 CID Farwin

CID Farwin

    Disciple

  • Members
  • 2,935 posts
  • Location:At the threshold
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 March 2009 - 05:52 PM

Farwin, why do you think Nintendo would use TWW to break OoT from ALttP if not for the fact that there are severe inconsistencies between the two games? Despite that Nintendo did originally intend OoT to be the IW, I wouldn't be surprised if their incorporation of the S&D story did not throw off this original suggestion.

I don't assume to know what the developer's intentions were.

What's an S&D? (aside from an anti-spyware program)

FSA is not the Imprisoning war any more than OoT is.


Yea, no shit? The idea was dropped in development.

>.>
<.<
Sorry, not aimed at you, but the people who insist on FSA replacing OoT as the IW. (as there's obviously less inconsistencies and more in common.)

Edited by CID Farwin, 17 March 2009 - 05:53 PM.


#59 Impossible

Impossible

    Mage

  • Members
  • 586 posts

Posted 17 March 2009 - 06:09 PM

I consider just about anything to be fair game against Lex, since he attacks members here (including myself and MPS) all the time over on ZU, when we're not there to respond (that's how he gets away with rehashing old arguments that were disproved here). Usually with straw men, or taking things they've said out of the context of their actual place in those arguments (just like he takes everyone and everything out of context here), while they can't actually defend themselves and point out that what he's saying isn't true at all.

If you people insist on nitpicking the differences between ALttP's IW and OoT, then you better not have at any point discredited the inconsistencies yourselves. OoT came out after ALttP and therefore takes presidence. Just because they're both old doesn't change that. The only things standing in the way of a OoT-IW connection are TP and TWW. That's what people should argue. Not the stuff that was glossed over when OoT first came out. Yes, the inconsistencies definitely hold up to the context of OoT, which was made to be the IW.


I would agree, except ALttP GBA came out after OoT, technically taking precedence once more over OoT. Also, the state of the Triforce is always a significant timeline detail, even if all the other differences between OoT and the IW can be ignored.

Edited by Impossible, 17 March 2009 - 06:11 PM.


#60 Raien

Raien

    Famicom

  • Members
  • 4,833 posts
  • Location:Luton
  • Gender:Male
  • United Kingdom

Posted 17 March 2009 - 06:12 PM

I don't assume to know what the developer's intentions were.


We've all made logical assumptions about developer intentions in various discussions about the timeline, so I don't buy the argument that we can't use logic in this particular case. If the OoT-ALttP connection was an established standard, Nintendo wouldn't have broken it. TWW pretty much proves that they had, at which point we can deduce there was a good reason. Breaking a faulty connection sounds to me like a perfectly valid reason.

What's an S&D? (aside from an anti-spyware program)


S&D stands for "Sound & Drama". It was part of a CD soundtrack released after ALttP, which told the story of how Zelda was kidnapped shortly before the events of ALttP. S&D was completely inconsistent with Agahnim's takeover, so the core components of the story were fixed onto OoT's retelling of the IW. S&D is responsible for the plotlines involving Ganondorf's invasion of the castle, Zelda's control over the gateway to the Sacred Realm (reimagined as the Ocarina of Time), and Link getting the power of the Triforce of Courage (reimagined as Link actually obtaining the Triforce of Courage).




Copyright © 2021 Your Company Name