94 replies to this topic

[Arturo]

I consider just about anything to be fair game against Lex, since he attacks members here (including myself and MPS) all the time over on ZU, when we're not there to respond (that's how he gets away with rehashing old arguments that were disproved here). Usually with straw men, or taking things they've said out of the context of their actual place in those arguments (just like he takes everyone and everything out of context here), while they can't actually defend themselves and point out that what he's saying isn't true at all.

But I do not. And my powers do not extend outside of LA's boundaries XD

Now, seriously. I don't care what he says over there, I care about what he or you might say here. No personal attacks against anyone are justified.

[CID Farwin]

I would agree, except ALttP GBA came out after OoT, technically taking precedence once more over OoT. Also, the state of the Triforce is always a significant timeline detail, even if all the other differences between OoT and the IW can be ignored.

But, they just re-released ALttP for GBA, similar to what they've done with the Final Fantasy's. They weren't going to change the game to be consistent with OoT. (in-game consistency over timeline consistency)

I don't assume to know what the developer's intentions were.

We've all made logical assumptions about developer intentions in various discussions about the timeline, so I don't buy the argument that we can't use logic in this particular case. If the OoT-ALttP connection was an established standard, Nintendo wouldn't have broken it. TWW pretty much proves that they had, at which point we can deduce there was a good reason.
Breaking a faulty connection sounds to me like a perfectly valid reason.

so you're saying they chose to put TWW after OoT because of the inconsistencies of OoT->ALttP.

I'm not aware of that being implied in anything I've seen.

What's an S&D? (aside from an anti-spyware program)

S&D stands for "Sound & Drama". It was part of a CD soundtrack released after ALttP, which told the story of how Zelda was kidnapped shortly before the events of ALttP. S&D was completely inconsistent with Agahnim's takeover, so the core components of the story were fixed onto OoT's retelling of the IW. S&D is responsible for the plotlines involving Ganondorf's invasion of the castle, Zelda's control over the gateway to the Sacred Realm (reimagined as the Ocarina of Time), and Link getting the power of the Triforce of Courage (reimagined as Link actually obtaining the Triforce of Courage).

So, the retelling of ALttP in the S&D is more consistent with OoT?

....Then what's your point here?

[Raien]

so you're saying they chose to put TWW after OoT because of the inconsistencies of OoT->ALttP.

I'm not aware of that being implied in anything I've seen.

It's not something to be found within the text, it's a reason for the very existence of the text. There's no other reason to break the connection.

So, the retelling of ALttP in the S&D is more consistent with OoT?

....Then what's your point here?

My point is that all the evidence leads us to believe that Nintendo were immediately aware of the mistakes they made with OoT and broke its connection to ALttP. S&D establishes their awareness of changes to the storyline during/after development, TWW establishes their willingness to retcon the inconsistencies by breaking the OoT/ALttP connection. FSA also establishes that Nintendo have had plans to try and reform that connection to some degree.

With this in mind, having to "accept that the inconsistencies between OoT and ALttP are meaningless" is a pointless exercise.

Edited by Raien, 17 March 2009 - 08:16 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Now, seriously. I don't care what he says over there, I care about what he or you might say here. No personal attacks against anyone are justified.

Except Picman. My sig is a quote from an admin, so HA.

[Impossible]

Now, seriously. I don't care what he says over there, I care about what he or you might say here. No personal attacks against anyone are justified.

It's not so much personal as it is against his arguments and methods.

But, they just re-released ALttP for GBA, similar to what they've done with the Final Fantasy's. They weren't going to change the game to be consistent with OoT. (in-game consistency over timeline consistency)

It had a retranslation to add plenty of consistency. And it wasn't a straight port, there were content edits. Not the same deal as, for example, the Classic NES series. The issue is that they could have made the manual at least fit in better with OoT without changing the story, and they didn't.

Actually, the bigger issue is that it still tells the same damn story as the SNES manual, which ZU has taken to ignoring simply because there's a GBA one. Even though it's the same story. So while you're right, the fact that ALttP GBA didn't alter the story or backstory of ALttP SNES is starting to get completely ignored.

[Raien]

It had a retranslation to add plenty of consistency.

It really only affects the NOA translation, though. Unless we can get some translations of the Japanese game to see if there are any changes there as well.

And it wasn't a straight port, there were content edits.

There was added content; the original game was more-or-less untouched by the FS additions.

[Evilsbane]

They're highly implied to be hylian old men either way you slice it. Hell, a Sage is typically a smart old guy, which is probably what the word meant before it got retconned by OOT to be a spiritual plane of being. Everything before OOT, and everything after OOT, rely on different mythologies.

Yeah, but instead of saying that the games have nothing in common, doesn't it make more sense that they just changed their mind about what they wanted the Sages to look like for OoT? They hadn't pinned themselves down with anything over-committal: they never said the Sages were Hylian, they just made an image in an intro. If you'll notice, in TWW's intro Ganon looks nothing like he did in OoT. A drawing in an intro that is very careful not to even show what the Sages look like is not a reason to say that OoT != IW.

The Essence of the Triforce said no such thing.

If a person with a good heart
touches it, it will make his good
wishes come true... If an evil-
hearted person touches it, it
grants his evil wishes.

Ever wonder why they make the distinction? It definitely sounds like it treats good wishers better. They way it says it indicates a certain element of disdain for an evil wish. Like 'they get their wish but the Triforce doesn't worry too much about whether it's to the wisher's satisfaction'. And then OoT was released and explained why wishing was different for balanced(good) and imbalanced(evil) people. The developers are laying it out on a silver platter for you.

It took him seven years to get as far as he did and he's still not done taking over. Clearly, things did not magically transform at the top of the hat. He had to use his Triforce piece as support to get things the old fashioned way. People with only 1/3 of the Golden Power don't get a wish.

If an evil-
hearted person touches it, it
grants his evil wishes.

How can it grant the wish if an evil person will make the Triforce split? And even in ALttP, Ganon is talking about making his wish come true himself.

It wasn't invented yet, for one. Two, they're depicted as fictional objects in all related media. Three, the Triforce pieces can be collected from dead people's bodies, when both TP and TWW outright state, and imply, respectively, that killing someone while a Triforce is inside them sends it to a new owner or back to the Sacred Realm.

No no, I asked WHY not. WHY is there a difference between the way LoZ Zelda owns her Triforce and TP Zelda owns her Triforce. Is there an in-universe reason?

First off, the TWW Sages are not the same set as the OOT Sages, so they are nigh-entirely irrelevant. And the Japanese word for "Descendant" in the TWW context does indeed refer to a spiritual sense of heredity. It's earliest recorded usage is to describe Abe-no-Seimei's "descendants" of Abe-no-Yasunori and onward, even though Abe-no-Seimei was never with a woman and never sired children. It is generally agreed by scholars that he either passed on his powers spiritually, or in some wilder interpretations, created a homunculus or similar creature to be his son.

First off, and I'm glad you included the word 'nigh' so I know you realise this, the TWW Sages demonstrate the changing appearance of OoT races, whether or not you want to believe they're related to the OoT Sages. Second, just so we can be sure of what exact relationship they have, can you dig up the translation for these:

You must find the one who carries on
my bloodline... The one who holds this
sacred instrument...
Nothing can stop the flow of time or the
passing of generations...but the fate carried
within my bloodline endures the ravages of
all the years. It survives.

It is my fate to return the power to repel
evil to your Master Sword.
...And to ease the regrets of my ancestors.
Oh, [player_name], please! You must take
me with you to the Wind Temple.

[player_name], I have fully restored the
power to repel evil to your Master Sword.
...And my ancestors are most satisfied.

Because I know you guys have done some translations and you'd probably find them quicker than me.

And also, it's impossible for there to be a Hylian descendant of a Kokiri Sage because Kokiri do not sexually reproduce with each other, much less with non-Kokiri. Therefore, the theory is BUNK.

There you go, assuming the Maidens are Hylians again.

Listen. Can we AT LEAST agree that at the time of OoT's release, OoT=IW? This is essential, because otherwise I don't know how to reason with you.

Move along people, Evilsbane loses, again.

'Loses'? You have a very different idea of theorising than I do. In fact, I get the feeling you want me to leave?

[MikePetersSucks]

Yeah, but instead of saying that the games have nothing in common, doesn't it make more sense that they just changed their mind about what they wanted the Sages to look like for OoT? They hadn't pinned themselves down with anything over-committal: they never said the Sages were Hylian, they just made an image in an intro. If you'll notice, in TWW's intro Ganon looks nothing like he did in OoT. A drawing in an intro that is very careful not to even show what the Sages look like is not a reason to say that OoT != IW.

Their descendants are Hylian, and LTTP makes this big deal about how the Hylians, the ancient, powerful, wise race chosen by the gods defeated Ganon. And besides, the existence of TWW and TP makes OOT as the IW impossible either way, since they both involve OOT's seal either never existing, or being broken, and Ganon dies in both. A different event has to be LTTP's Imprisoning War.

Also, that TWW drawing is nowhere near comparable. He still looks like piggy Ganon, complete with cape. It's just the art style. This is different than, say, changing someone's race.

If a person with a good heart
touches it, it will make his good
wishes come true... If an evil-
hearted person touches it, it
grants his evil wishes.

Ever wonder why they make the distinction? It definitely sounds like it treats good wishers better. They way it says it indicates a certain element of disdain for an evil wish. Like 'they get their wish but the Triforce doesn't worry too much about whether it's to the wisher's satisfaction'. And then OoT was released and explained why wishing was different for balanced(good) and imbalanced(evil) people. The developers are laying it out on a silver platter for you.

That quote says no such thing, quit lying and changing the facts. It simply says that it grants the person's wishes, while it's good, like "save everyone", or evil, like "destroy the kingdom." The Triforce splits depending on whether or not someone's heart is balanced, but this has nothing to do with Good or Evil, as the Triforce cannot judge that. The Triforce judges the heart's balance, but it cannot judge good and evil. Therefore, while good people tend to be balanced, and evil people tend to be unbalanced, it is not the same thing.

If an evil-
hearted person touches it, it
grants his evil wishes.

How can it grant the wish if an evil person will make the Triforce split? And even in ALttP, Ganon is talking about making his wish come true himself.

It doesn't. See above, only an imbalanced person splits the Triforce.

No no, I asked WHY not. WHY is there a difference between the way LoZ Zelda owns her Triforce and TP Zelda owns her Triforce. Is there an in-universe reason?

None that's outright stated, but their possessions are treated differently. Perhaps a result of the Great King's wish involves keeping anyone from absorbing a Triforce so that the Chosen One can claim it, or perhaps the Triforce of Wisdom was the property of the "Royal Family" as a collective instead of "Zelda."

First off, and I'm glad you included the word 'nigh' so I know you realise this, the TWW Sages demonstrate the changing appearance of OoT races, whether or not you want to believe they're related to the OoT Sages. Second, just so we can be sure of what exact relationship they have, can you dig up the translation for these:

You must find the one who carries on
my bloodline... The one who holds this
sacred instrument...
Nothing can stop the flow of time or the
passing of generations...but the fate carried
within my bloodline endures the ravages of
all the years. It survives.

It is my fate to return the power to repel
evil to your Master Sword.
...And to ease the regrets of my ancestors.
Oh, [player_name], please! You must take
me with you to the Wind Temple.

[player_name], I have fully restored the
power to repel evil to your Master Sword.
...And my ancestors are most satisfied.

Because I know you guys have done some translations and you'd probably find them quicker than me.

I'm not really the guy to come to for the translations, but I do know the context. Lemme try.

I've gotten the passages about the sages done.


Laruto:

マスターソードに選ばれし勇者よ
Oh, hero chosen by the Master Sword.
O great hero, chosen by the Master Sword!

私の名前は　ラルト
My name is Laruto.
My name is Laruto.

その昔から、この大地の神殿で マスターソードに退魔の力を宿すため 神への祈りを捧げて来た　ゾーラ族の賢者
Since ancient times, I have been lifting up prayers to the gods in this Earth Temple in order to keep the anti-demon power in the Master Sword. I am a sage of the Zora race.
I am a Zora sage. For an age, I offered my prayers here in the Earth Temple, praying that the power to repel evil would ever remain within the Master Sword.

残念ながら、アナタの持つマスターソードは ガノンドロフの策謀によって すでに　その力を失っています
Unfortunately, the Master Sword you possess has already lost that power due to Ganondorf’s strategy.
And yet...unfortunately, due to Ganondorf's evil designs, the Master Sword you hold has lost this power.

時の勇者により滅ぼされたガノンドロフが 再びハイラルに蘇った時 ガノンドロフは、その剣の力を消し去るべく この神殿を襲い、私の命を奪い去りました その剣に再び　退魔の力を蘇らせるには 私に代わり　この神殿で 神に祈りを捧げる者が　必要なのです
When Ganondorf, who had been destroyed by the Hero of Time, was revived to Hyrule, he attacked this temple and took my life in order to erase that sword’s power. In order to restore the anti-demon power to the blade, someone to pray in this temple in my stead is needed.
After his defeat at the hands of the Hero of Time, Ganondorf was sealed away...but not for all time. He was revived, and he returned to Hyrule in a red wrath. He attacked this temple and stole my soul, knowing that he had to remove the power contained in that enchanted blade. In order to return the power to repel evil to your sword, you must find another to take my stead in this temple and ask the gods for their assistance.

私の　血を引き、この聖なる楽器を持つ者
The person to do this is the one descended from me, the one who possesses this sacred instrument.
You must find the one who carries on my bloodline... The one who holds this sacred instrument...

時が流れ、代が変わっても 血に込められた使命は 伝承されているはずです
Time flows and the world changes, but the mission present in this blood has surely been handed down.
Nothing can stop the flow of time or the passing of generations...but the fate carried within my bloodline endures the ravages of all the years. It survives.

アナタが今、指揮した曲は その者に神への祈りの曲を思い出させ 賢者として目覚めさせるためのモノなのです
The song you just directed will cause that person to remember the song used to pray to the gods and awaken them as a sage.
The song you just conducted is one which will open the eyes of the new sage and awaken within that sage the melody that will carry our prayers to the gods.

この扉は、その者の奏でる曲でのみ開きます
This door will only open when that person plays that song.
The door that blocks your way will only open when the sage plays that song.

どうか、御武運を
May you have fortune in your battles.
May the winds of fortune blow with you.

Fado/Fodo:

オマエが　あたらしい勇者か？
Are you the new hero?
Are you the new hero?

オイラは　コキリ族のフォド こう見えても、と～っても偉い賢者なんだぜ
I’m Fodo of the Kokiri tribe. I don’t look like it, but I’m a most excellent sage.
I am Fado of the Kokiri tribe. I know I appear to you as a child, but the eyes can oft deceive. I am a most esteemed sage.

そのマスターソードに 退魔の力を入れるために ここで　お祈りをしてたんだけど・・・
I used to pray here in order to put the anti-demon power in the Master Sword, but…
I had been praying here so that the power to repel evil would continue to be contained within the blade of the Master Sword...

ガノンドロフのヤツに襲われて こんな姿にされちまった
Ganondorf attacked and I ended up like this.
But I was attacked by the evil Ganondorf... and this is what happened to me.

その剣に、力を取り戻したいんだろ？
You want to return power to that blade, right?
You wish to return the power to your blade, don't you?

それだったら、オイラと同じ この楽器を持っているヤツを探して さっきの曲を教えてあげな
To do so you need to find the guy who has the same instrument as I do and teach him that song.
In that case, look for the one who has the same instrument that I hold, and teach him the song you just played.

そしたら、そいつも 自分が賢者の血を引いてるって きっとわかるはずさ
Then he will surely know that he has the blood of a sage.
Once you do, I'm certain the holder of the instrument will feel the blood of the sages awaken within his veins.

オマエの持ってるタクトは 昔、オイラたち賢者を指揮して 神様を呼ぶ曲を演奏する時に使われてたんだ
In ancient times, that baton you have was used to conduct us sages when we were playing the song to call the gods.
That Wind Waker you hold was used long ago to conduct us sages when we played our song to call upon the gods.

その時は、いつも国王様が 指揮していたんだけどね
At that time, it was always the king who conducted us.
In those days, it was always the king who conducted for us...

オイラは天国でも、 ちゃんと演奏しているって 国王様に伝えてくれよな！
Please tell the king that I’ll be playing even in heaven!
Please... Tell the king that I will still play...even in the next world!

And when Medli mentions her instrument:

ワタシにとって、この楽器は 運命の楽器なんです
For me, this instrument is an instrument of fate.
This instrument is called one of fate's tools.

コレを持っているワタシを、呼び止め 今のお付きになることをすすめてくれたのが
I was seen with it, was told to stop, and was advanced to my current position of attendant.
Prince Komali's grandmother saw me carrying it one day and called out to me to stop. She'd seen my fate in the curves of the instrument, you see.

コモリ様のおばあ様で ワタシの師匠でした
Komali-sama’s grandmother was my master.
She eventually became my teacher, and that's how I became the attendant you see before you today.

だから、師匠のためにも　早く一人前になって みんなのお役に立たないと
That’s why, for my master’s sake, I need to quickly grow to adulthood and be of use to everyone.
So, now you understand why I need to hurry and improve my skills, so that I may help the aerie.

Note: When Medli calls it an "instrument of fate", the Japanese word can only mean a musical instrument, so NOA was incorrect in calling it "fate's tool". But NOA has obviously embellished on Medli's story anyways.

The Japanese words used that got translated into Jumbie's blue, middle lines required some context. The Sages and their powers are remniscent of Arahitogami, "living gods" who pass their powers to non-blood "descendants" through a spiritual lineage. The word that got translated as "descendant" can also appropriately mean "successor" or "heir", and in conventional Japanese often comes up when comparing one person's work to another's, such as "This painter is surely the successor/descendant of Da Vinci." A good parallel would be the relationship of Master and Apprentice, for simple understanding.

There you go, assuming the Maidens are Hylians again.

Because they are. Their blood is deluded, but they explicitly say that they're descended from the ancient Hylians like Zelda and Link are. None of the seven have any non-Hylian features.

Listen. Can we AT LEAST agree that at the time of OoT's release, OoT=IW? This is essential, because otherwise I don't know how to reason with you.

At the intent, yes, OOT was officially the Imprisoning War, but the reasoning was always stupid and riddled with plot holes, requiring too many stretches and assumptions to make it work. TWW and TP address and solve the issue perfectly fine.

Loses'? You have a very different idea of theorising than I do. In fact, I get the feeling you want me to leave?

We weren't "just" theorizing, we were also debating. When two ideas clash and are argued over, this is what we call a debate. In a proper debate, it is indeed possible, and infact normal, for someone to lose when their arguments and ideas don't hold up.

Edited by MikePetersSucks, 18 March 2009 - 02:16 PM.

[Evilsbane]

Their descendants are Hylian, and LTTP makes this big deal about how the Hylians, the ancient, powerful, wise race chosen by the gods defeated Ganon. And besides, the existence of TWW and TP makes OOT as the IW impossible either way, since they both involve OOT's seal either never existing, or being broken, and Ganon dies in both. A different event has to be LTTP's Imprisoning War.

Also, that TWW drawing is nowhere near comparable. He still looks like piggy Ganon, complete with cape. It's just the art style. This is different than, say, changing someone's race.

*sigh* OK, you know what? Just gimme the quote that says that the IW Sages were Hylians and I'll let it be. The picture in ALttP's intro shows nondescript figures in cloaks.

That quote says no such thing, quit lying and changing the facts.

Well if we're taking 'ALttP makes a big deal about Hylians so the Sages must be Hylians too' as evidence, I thought that personal interpretation was allowed. What are the rules, then?

It simply says that it grants the person's wishes, while it's good, like "save everyone", or evil, like "destroy the kingdom." The Triforce splits depending on whether or not someone's heart is balanced, but this has nothing to do with Good or Evil, as the Triforce cannot judge that. The Triforce judges the heart's balance, but it cannot judge good and evil. Therefore, while good people tend to be balanced, and evil people tend to be unbalanced, it is not the same thing.

It doesn't. See above, only an imbalanced person splits the Triforce.

The very fact that the Triforce splits for Ganondorf has already been shown. So how do you propose he got other pieces for ALttP?

None that's outright stated, but their possessions are treated differently. Perhaps a result of the Great King's wish involves keeping anyone from absorbing a Triforce so that the Chosen One can claim it, or perhaps the Triforce of Wisdom was the property of the "Royal Family" as a collective instead of "Zelda."

Seems a bit of a stretch, doesn't it?

The Japanese words used that got translated into Jumbie's blue, middle lines required some context. The Sages and their powers are remniscent of Arahitogami, "living gods" who pass their powers to non-blood "descendants" through a spiritual lineage. The word that got translated as "descendant" can also appropriately mean "successor" or "heir", and in conventional Japanese often comes up when comparing one person's work to another's, such as "This painter is surely the successor/descendant of Da Vinci." A good parallel would be the relationship of Master and Apprentice, for simple understanding.

Four things: first, that you say 'also' seems to imply to me that it can, as well as your interpretation, function as 'family descendant' perfectly fine. Second, the use of 'blood' several times reinforces this. Third, since the NOA interpreters seem to favour the 'bloodline descendant' translation, I'm inclined to go with them (I'm led to believe that Mr Trinen is fairly reliable). Fourth, are the two interpretations mutually exclusive?

Because they are. Their blood is deluded, but they explicitly say that they're descended from the ancient Hylians like Zelda and Link are. None of the seven have any non-Hylian features.

I'd like that quote. And exactly what features DO they have? You can't even see their mouths or noses. Did someone mention their pointy ears?

At the intent, yes, OOT was officially the Imprisoning War, but the reasoning was always stupid and riddled with plot holes, requiring too many stretches and assumptions to make it work. TWW and TP address and solve the issue perfectly fine.

OoT happens. Ganondorf breaks into Sacred Realm, gets wish, keeps only ToP, is pissed off at needing to hunt for the other pieces to get another wish. Ganondorf rules Hyrule with an iron fist for seven years. Is sealed in Dark World by Link and Seven Sages. ALttP happens, Sages descendants (who at the VERY WORST are Hylians who have been retconned) get sealed in crystals, Ganon tries to break free. Link saves them and kills Ganon, reassembling the Triforce. Makes a wish, setting everything right.

Where's the problem?

We weren't "just" theorizing, we were also debating. When two ideas clash and are argued over, this is what we call a debate. In a proper debate, it is indeed possible, and infact normal, for someone to lose when their arguments and ideas don't hold up.

Let me rephrase, then - you and I have very different concepts of 'debunked'.

[Impossible]

If the maidens in ALttP were retconned into being other races, what's up with FSA? I'd still say the Child Timeline retained Hylian sages and the Adult Timeline had them following a line of succession through race.

[Evilsbane]

If the maidens in ALttP were retconned into being other races, what's up with FSA? I'd still say the Child Timeline retained Hylian sages and the Adult Timeline had them following a line of succession through race.

Why, do they use different words for descendant in ALttP?

[MikePetersSucks]

Well if we're taking 'ALttP makes a big deal about Hylians so the Sages must be Hylians too' as evidence, I thought that personal interpretation was allowed. What are the rules, then?

Well, for one, you can start by being consistent. Comparing facts to other facts in the same game isn't the same thing as using a quote to mean it's referring to a concept that was invented several years later in another game.

The very fact that the Triforce splits for Ganondorf has already been shown. So how do you propose he got other pieces for ALttP?

He counted as "balanced" in LTTP for whatever reason, as it didn't split when he touched it in it's backstory.

Seems a bit of a stretch, doesn't it?

Not really, since the latter was the intent before the concept of Triforces existing inside of a person was invented a decade later.

Four things: first, that you say 'also' seems to imply to me that it can, as well as your interpretation, function as 'family descendant' perfectly fine. Second, the use of 'blood' several times reinforces this. Third, since the NOA interpreters seem to favour the 'bloodline descendant' translation, I'm inclined to go with them (I'm led to believe that Mr Trinen is fairly reliable). Fourth, are the two interpretations mutually exclusive?

The NOA interpreters are generally unreliable. That's the main reason why the fan translation project exists in the first place; because they get shit outright wrong. For example, the Japanese equivalent of the word "bloodline" isn't even in the original text, and I already explained that the word that got translated as "descendant" exists in the form of occupational entitlements and spiritual positions, like how one would turn over ownership of something, which is allegorically treated as a family-like bond due to how Japanese culture and language works. When referring to someone who is descended to you through blood and genetics, the Japanese use A TOTALLY DIFFERENT WORD. It's like translating "seem" and "seam" as the same word in another language. Wrong.

OoT happens. Ganondorf breaks into Sacred Realm, gets wish, keeps only ToP, is pissed off at needing to hunt for the other pieces to get another wish. Ganondorf rules Hyrule with an iron fist for seven years. Is sealed in Dark World by Link and Seven Sages. ALttP happens, Sages descendants (who at the VERY WORST are Hylians who have been retconned) get sealed in crystals, Ganon tries to break free. Link saves them and kills Ganon, reassembling the Triforce. Makes a wish, setting everything right.

Where's the problem?

Well, for one thing, Link didn't reassemble the Triforce. Ganon had the whole thing. Secondly, there's the issue of the Hyrulian Knights, which were fighting Ganon while the Sages were making the seal according to the story of the Imprisoning War, aren't around. Thirdly, the issue of races, which simply doesn't work. Fourthly, Ganondorf dies between OOT and LTTP. Either way, a new Imprisoning War event has to happen for LTTP to be possible. Therefore requiring new Sages, new hero(es), a new seal, a new seizing of the Triforce, and so on. Given that the land of Hyrule has a cyclic interpretation of destiny, this isn't a stretch by any means. What has happened will happen again is the cardinal rule, which is what perpetuates the war between Link and Ganon throughout the aeons.

Let me rephrase, then - you and I have very different concepts of 'debunked'.

Yours being the wrong one.

Why, do they use different words for descendant in ALttP?

It uses different words from the usage in other games, again another relic of the mythology shift. LTTP DOES use the earlier-mentioned Japanese word for actual bloodline descent, as opposed to TWW, which does not.

[Evilsbane]

Well, for one, you can start by being consistent. Comparing facts to other facts in the same game isn't the same thing as using a quote to mean it's referring to a concept that was invented several years later in another game.

Okay, set me straight: when DID Ganon get his ALttP wish to rule the world?

He counted as "balanced" in LTTP for whatever reason, as it didn't split when he touched it in it's backstory.

We're not told WHAT happened to the Triforce after he made his wish.

Not really, since the latter was the intent before the concept of Triforces existing inside of a person was invented a decade later.

The stretch I was referring to is that the rules change completely with no explanation.

The NOA interpreters are generally unreliable. That's the main reason why the fan translation project exists in the first place; because they get shit outright wrong. For example, the Japanese equivalent of the word "bloodline" isn't even in the original text, and I already explained that the word that got translated as "descendant" exists in the form of occupational entitlements and spiritual positions, like how one would turn over ownership of something, which is allegorically treated as a family-like bond due to how Japanese culture and language works. When referring to someone who is descended to you through blood and genetics, the Japanese use A TOTALLY DIFFERENT WORD. It's like translating "seem" and "seam" as the same word in another language. Wrong.

What does the 'blood' refer to, then?

Well, for one thing, Link didn't reassemble the Triforce. Ganon had the whole thing. Secondly, there's the issue of the Hyrulian Knights, which were fighting Ganon while the Sages were making the seal according to the story of the Imprisoning War, aren't around. Thirdly, the issue of races, which simply doesn't work. Fourthly, Ganondorf dies between OOT and LTTP. Either way, a new Imprisoning War event has to happen for LTTP to be possible. Therefore requiring new Sages, new hero(es), a new seal, a new seizing of the Triforce, and so on. Given that the land of Hyrule has a cyclic interpretation of destiny, this isn't a stretch by any means. What has happened will happen again is the cardinal rule, which is what perpetuates the war between Link and Ganon throughout the aeons.

For a guy who's arguing that everything that connects OoT to ALttP has been repurposed, you sure do have a hard time understanding how OoT repurposed ALttP's events. We never see Ganon with the whole Triforce. Link is the very definition of a Hylian Knight - who was lost afterwards to the flows of time. The issue of races has a plethora of explanations, and you haven't even disproven the first. And at the time of OoT's release, TWW didn't exist - so I'm still wondering why you found it so confusing back then.

Yours being the wrong one.

That would mean something if you could back it up with proof, kid.

[Impossible]

I love how you're both just as patronising.

My main question on this is that Laruto specifically mentions "the one who carries on my bloodline" and "the fate carried within my bloodline" in the Japanese version. While I agree with you on the idea of figurative descent, I just want to know if that contradicts it.

[Evilsbane]

I love how you're both just as patronising.

Move along people, Evilsbane loses, again.

I can talk trash when the other person wants to. And as trash-talking goes, 'kid' is pretty tame.

My main question on this is that Laruto specifically mentions "the one who carries on my bloodline" and "the fate carried within my bloodline" in the Japanese version. While I agree with you on the idea of figurative descent, I just want to know if that contradicts it.

That's what I was wondering. Fado also mentions that Makar will feel the blood of a Sage in himself.

[MikePetersSucks]

Okay, set me straight: when DID Ganon get his ALttP wish to rule the world?

The game says the Dark World, and the monsters pouring out of it, are the result of his wish. However, the Sages have Goddess-given powers, as does the Master Sword, so theoretically a seal on the Sacred Realm would bind the wish from crossing fully over.

We're not told WHAT happened to the Triforce after he made his wish.

We're told he owns the True Force. And he does; he got a wish.

The stretch I was referring to is that the rules change completely with no explanation.

Same thing you said about the Silver Arrows. Consistency isn't a luxury we're given in Zelda Timeline Fandom, or our job would be a lot easier.

What does the 'blood' refer to, then?

Given the context, I would assume it's figurative, like "the blood of the warrior", or whatever. Seeing as the Kokiri/Korok do not reproduce and are all born from the Deku Tree specifically, Makar can't be Fado's blood descendant; I don't see why they'd get special privilidges, and the text supports the notion, so it's pretty reasonable. Certainly fixes most, if not all, plotholes regarding Sage heredity.

For a guy who's arguing that everything that connects OoT to ALttP has been repurposed, you sure do have a hard time understanding how OoT repurposed ALttP's events. We never see Ganon with the whole Triforce. Link is the very definition of a Hylian Knight - who was lost afterwards to the flows of time. The issue of races has a plethora of explanations, and you haven't even disproven the first. And at the time of OoT's release, TWW didn't exist - so I'm still wondering why you found it so confusing back then.

We're told, with proof, that Ganon has the Triforce, Link does not equate to "The Knights of Hyrule", being one regardless, and I'm not the only one who tackles the races thing as silly. Nearly everyone at the time was trying to work out the plotholes between connecting the games, I was just one of the only people who realized it didn't fit properly. The fact of the matter is that OOT isn't the Imprisoning War anymore, and there were always problems.

My main question on this is that Laruto specifically mentions "the one who carries on my bloodline" and "the fate carried within my bloodline" in the Japanese version. While I agree with you on the idea of figurative descent, I just want to know if that contradicts it.

Bloodline, even in English, can be used in a figurative context, and the Japanese get even wonkier with it. The Japanese rootword of how "Bloodline" was translated in those passages is more accurately translated as "lineage" or "legacy", and the context is determined by the surrounded words. If one makes the logic that the word Descendant is hereditary, "bloodline" is the natural accompanying word.

[Evilsbane]

The game says the Dark World, and the monsters pouring out of it, are the result of his wish. However, the Sages have Goddess-given powers, as does the Master Sword, so theoretically a seal on the Sacred Realm would bind the wish from crossing fully over.

Only, the Sacred Realm was transformed in OoT. After Ganondorf's wish to rule the world, which came true for seven years.

We're told he owns the True Force. And he does; he got a wish.

Where are we told that?

Same thing you said about the Silver Arrows. Consistency isn't a luxury we're given in Zelda Timeline Fandom, or our job would be a lot easier.

I have no problem with the rules changing. You do, because you refuse to acknowledge OoT's retcon of ALttP.

Given the context, I would assume it's figurative, like "the blood of the warrior", or whatever. Seeing as the Kokiri/Korok do not reproduce and are all born from the Deku Tree specifically, Makar can't be Fado's blood descendant; I don't see why they'd get special privilidges, and the text supports the notion, so it's pretty reasonable. Certainly fixes most, if not all, plotholes regarding Sage heredity.

Yes. Yes it does. ALL plotholes.

We're told, with proof, that Ganon has the Triforce, Link does not equate to "The Knights of Hyrule", being one regardless, and I'm not the only one who tackles the races thing as silly. Nearly everyone at the time was trying to work out the plotholes between connecting the games, I was just one of the only people who realized it didn't fit properly. The fact of the matter is that OOT isn't the Imprisoning War anymore, and there were always problems.

We're told that Ganon has the power of the Triforce behind him. But which Triforce?

Edited by Evilsbane, 19 March 2009 - 02:06 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

have no problem with the rules changing. You do, because you refuse to acknowledge OoT's retcon of ALttP.

We have no problem with the rules changing and we do aknowledge a retcon. OoT may have been the imprisoning war at the time of it's conception but the way the game creators are going with the timeline these present days makes this nearly impossible. Zelda history is not like real history. It is possible for it to be torn down and completely reworked. Either ALttP and it's back story were made into different events long after TP or removed from the timeline altogether. That the game creators made TWW and TP shows that they are not concerned with the events of ALttP.

[Evilsbane]

That's no problem; all I've been arguing is that it was true and reasonably logical at the time of OoT's release. Personally, I use FSA as the IW nowadays. My original point was that, although the OoT-ALttP connection has seemingly been retconned, the mechanics of how the Triforce works, instituted in OoT and retconning the story of ALttP, has not NECESSARILY been retconned itself, since none of the new games have suggested that things have gone back to the original, retconned idea of 'Ganon can get the whole Triforce without it splitting'. So I agree with you... kind of.

Edited by Evilsbane, 19 March 2009 - 07:25 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Only, the Sacred Realm was transformed in OoT. After Ganondorf's wish to rule the world, which came true for seven years.

There's no definite proof the Sacred Realm was transformed in OOT, and even if it was, it didn't become the Dark World, or the Temple of Light wouldn't be standing.

Where are we told that?

The game in general, Dark World residents, the Triforce itself, Ganon himself, etc.

I have no problem with the rules changing. You do, because you refuse to acknowledge OoT's retcon of ALttP.

I don't have a problem with retcons. I'm usually the ones arguing for the case of retcons when it comes up. However, OOT was not a retcon; especially since the post-OOT rerelease of LTTP didn't address the matter. Either way, retcon or not, it presents problems for the timeline.

We're told that Ganon has the power of the Triforce behind him. But which Triforce?

He had the True Force everyone was looking for in a room behind him. I doubt he somehow didn't know it was there, that'd be ridiculously stupid for the story.

That's no problem; all I've been arguing is that it was true and reasonably logical at the time of OoT's release.

I admit that at OOT's release, it was intended to be the Imprisoning War. I'm just arguing that the connection is riddled with problems and plot holes.

My original point was that, although the OoT-ALttP connection has seemingly been retconned, the mechanics of how the Triforce works, instituted in OoT and retconning the story of ALttP, has not NECESSARILY been retconned itself, since none of the new games have suggested that things have gone back to the original, retconned idea of 'Ganon can get the whole Triforce without it splitting'. So I agree with you... kind of.

And yet, there is no evidence, not so much as a developer's suggestion, that LTTP had been retconned in any way. When you start retconning without the nudge to do so, you enter into fanfiction territory.

[Impossible]

I like how OoT's retcon of ALttP counts, yet TWW's/TP's/FSA's retcons of the OoT-ALttP connection don't. 1998, pre-Aonuma canon is so great.

By the way, you may want to, you know, beat Ganon in ALttP... >_> In the next room... That's the entire Triforce there.

[Evilsbane]

I like how OoT's retcon of ALttP counts, yet TWW's/TP's/FSA's retcons of the OoT-ALttP connection don't. 1998, pre-Aonuma canon is so great.

That's NOT what I just said. I agree that OoT's connection to ALttP has been retconned. I'm merely stating that they don't seem to have retconned OoT's explanation of how the Triforce works. Not everything has to be an opportunity to mock me.

By the way, you may want to, you know, beat Ganon in ALttP... >_> In the next room... That's the entire Triforce there.

Yeah, and when Ganon beat Link in TWW and the True Force appeared, does that mean that Link had the True Force the whole time? No: beating the other Triforce wielders makes the True Force reassemble in TWW, and I've merely suggested that this is what happens in ALttP. Again, you don't have to treat EVERY post as an opportunity to mock me. An occasional sarcastic comment here and there is a normal feature of conversation. EVERY sentence being a sarcastic dig at me starts to wear thin, and anyone would EVENTUALLY start to take it personally.

It's possible to be smart without needing someone else to be stupid.

[Impossible]

When my role in an argument is making sarcastic one-liners from the sidelines rather than being one of the major debaters, that's just how I'm going to talk to anyone. >_>

Your suggestion of that occurring in ALttP doesn't really make sense. The Triforce was there in a room the whole time, and ALttP says this clearly enough. It doesn't reform, it's never mentioned as not having been complete... and if they meant to make such a huge change to the story, it would have needed to be in ALttP GBA. This doesn't strike me as something that could logically be deduced as creator intent by looking at the games.

[Evilsbane]

When my role in an argument is making sarcastic one-liners from the sidelines rather than being one of the major debaters, that's just how I'm going to talk to anyone. >_>

You can be a major debater if you want. I don't mind. Your opinion can be as valid as anyone else's.

Your suggestion of that occurring in ALttP doesn't really make sense. The Triforce was there in a room the whole time, and ALttP says this clearly enough. It doesn't reform, it's never mentioned as not having been complete...

It clearly DOES reform at around 1:40. In much the same way it does when Ganon is the victorious one in TWW at around 2:00:

and if they meant to make such a huge change to the story, it would have needed to be in ALttP GBA.

That was more or less a straight port with FS stuff and Link's voice added. They didn't modify the story at all, to my recollection. Anyway, there was no need to do so: the retcon doesn't actually contradict anything in ALttP; just changes the way you look at it. Like the way Ben Kenobi says that Yoda taught him - the prequels clearly change what he means, but the statement is still true.

This doesn't strike me as something that could logically be deduced as creator intent by looking at the games.

Not by looking at ALttP, no. The original intent of ALttP was as you say. But then OoT changed our understanding of the details. You can't say 'TWW retconned OoT' and then say 'ALttP can't be retconned'.

Edited by Evilsbane, 19 March 2009 - 09:38 PM.

[Impossible]

...There's a difference between inventing events that don't exist in any version of the game and have never been implied or mentioned anywhere else, ever, and saying that the way two games are connected has been retconned - which is a fact to some extent, due to Ganondorf's death. ALttP's ending is nothing like TWW's. Where are you suggesting these other pieces even came from?

[Evilsbane]

...There's a difference between inventing events that don't exist in any version of the game and have never been implied or mentioned anywhere else, ever, and saying that the way two games are connected has been retconned - which is a fact to some extent, due to Ganondorf's death. ALttP's ending is nothing like TWW's. Where are you suggesting these other pieces even came from?

Where they always come from - their wielders. And, as I've said, when OoT was released this is the only way everything could have worked.

[MikePetersSucks]

I don't see one of those triangles coming out of LTTP Link, and Zelda wasn't in any condition to be having or giving a Triforce piece. The Triforce often comes apart and back together from the Aether when not in use, it seems, as it did vanish after Daphnes made his wish and he had proper ownership of it.

[Evilsbane]

I don't see one of those triangles coming out of LTTP Link,

Of course you don't. Of course, you don't see any coming from Ganon, either.

and Zelda wasn't in any condition to be having or giving a Triforce piece.

The Triforces were resonating when Ganon had her sealed in that crystally thing in OoT.

The Triforce often comes apart and back together from the Aether when not in use, it seems, as it did vanish after Daphnes made his wish and he had proper ownership of it.

From the Aether? Seems to me that Ganon reassembled it, the pieces spun around briefly and then reunited, and stayed stationary until wished upon. They then flew away, but any speculation on why or where can be little more than guesswork. Besides, look at it this way: when OoT was released, how did OoT lead into ALttP without this explanation?

[Fin]

Besides, look at it this way: when OoT was released, how did OoT lead into ALttP without this explanation?

The thing is, when OoT was released Aonuma wasn't yet in the director's chair. Story was never Miyamoto's strong point, and I think he was always more interested in the legend than consistency. Aonuma's answer to the OoT-LttP problem was to split the timeline, so given the current status quo I don't really see how we can look to the old OoT-LttP connection to explain anything about the timeline.

[Evilsbane]

Besides, look at it this way: when OoT was released, how did OoT lead into ALttP without this explanation?

The thing is, when OoT was released Aonuma wasn't yet in the director's chair. Story was never Miyamoto's strong point, and I think he was always more interested in the legend than consistency. Aonuma's answer to the OoT-LttP problem was to split the timeline, so given the current status quo I don't really see how we can look to the old OoT-LttP connection to explain anything about the timeline.

Miyamoto's still in charge of Zelda. If you read the 'Iwata Asks' interviews with all of TP's development staff, you see them go on and on about Miyamoto's input, and how he wanted this changed and that moved. I'm just saying, if you don't think the timeline makes sense while Miyamoto's in charge, then there's no timeline.

Edited by Evilsbane, 20 March 2009 - 04:52 PM.