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On the nature of Hylianness


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#121 Raien

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 05:27 PM

May I just point out that the people with long ears had a better chance of survival because they could hear the guiding voices of the gods?

#122 Hero of Legend

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 06:02 PM

May I just point out that the people with long ears had a better chance of survival because they could hear the guiding voices of the gods?

Which brings back the old question: What are the "voices of the gods"? I gett the feeling it's not something the average Hylian ever experiences, so it's not likely to be very useful on a day-to-day basis... unless it's subconscious, but that's quite an assumption to save your little theory.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 08 April 2008 - 05:13 AM.


#123 Raien

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 06:16 PM

Which brings back the old question: What are the "voices of the gods"? I gett the feeling it's not something the average Hylian ever experiences, so it's not likely to be very useful on a day-to-day basis... unless it's subconscious, but that's quite an assumption to save your little theory.


Well, clearly hearing the voices of the gods requires the gods to speak to the Hylians. If the gods have no reason to speak to the Hylians, then I doubt the people would ever experience that sensation. But TWW's back story does clearly involve their connection; the gods spoke to the Hylians and guided them to the mountains, so that when the flood arrived, the people were safe above the water.

And btw, I'm not using this point to support the use of genetics in Zelda mythology. If you read through my science topic, you would have seen that I am vehemently against referring to contemporary science in the Zelda mythology. And Arturo also agrees that genetics is not relevant to the Zelda mythology, as he told me on MSN tonight (before going to bed). The reason this scientific principle has been raised is because it is good evidence that genetics is an incompatible concept with the decline of the Hylian race.

Edited by jhurvid, 07 April 2008 - 06:17 PM.


#124 SOAP

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 06:31 PM

Guys.

There's a difference between pointed ears and long ears. Which is why they say long ears in the game as opposed to simply saying pointed. I think most of the confusion comes from people assuming long ears encompasses all ear types besides round.

#125 Raien

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 06:38 PM

There's a difference between pointed ears and long ears. Which is why they say long ears in the game as opposed to simply saying pointed. I think most of the confusion comes from people assuming long ears encompasses all ear types besides round.


Taking recent discussion into account, I would say the notion of short-pointed ears is debatable. The strongest evidence to support short-pointed ears are the character models in TWW, but when we acknowledge that lower points give the ears a more rounded shape, I think we can determine those ears to be round.

#126 Hana-Nezumi

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 07:03 PM

There's a difference between pointed ears and long ears. Which is why they say long ears in the game as opposed to simply saying pointed. I think most of the confusion comes from people assuming long ears encompasses all ear types besides round.


Taking recent discussion into account, I would say the notion of short-pointed ears is debatable. The strongest evidence to support short-pointed ears are the character models in TWW, but when we acknowledge that lower points give the ears a more rounded shape, I think we can determine those ears to be round.

I feel the need to point out that the shorter ears are a result of the art style. The lower points merely give the ears a shape with a larger earlobe, which is cuter and more chibi-like. You can tell the difference between pointed ears and round ears because the upper point sticks out ever so slightly more than normal. Quill says long ears, but he just a well could have said pointed ears, because the people with pointed ears do have long ears in comparison to people with round ears.

Edited by enchantedtoast, 07 April 2008 - 07:08 PM.


#127 Raien

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 07:08 PM

^My point exactly. As I said somewhere else, the easiest way to distinguish long ears from short ears is to see whether the top tip of the ear is the furthest point away from the head. If a point lower down is further away, this distinguishes the round shape of short ears.

#128 Hana-Nezumi

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 07:23 PM

Oh, I see, I thought you were referring to the lowest point, by the earlobe, but I see now that you're talking about the lower of two points at the top of the ear. In any case, I think because of the technical limitations (well, I'm sure Nintendo could have made the ears more detailed, but placed the limitations themselves in order to be more efficient) we need to look to the official artwork when possible, with the exception of Sue-Belle, who appears to have round ears in-game, and clearly has round ears on her trophy, yet has pointed ears in her artwork.

#129 LionHarted

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 07:52 PM

How does the great flood change genotypic frequences? By killing selectively people with long ears? Do you realize that you just don't understand what you have posted?


The population of Hyrule proper is not necessarily as balanced (or unbalanced, more likely) as the population of any of the individual islands on the Great Sea. Simple logic tells us that people will be more likely to remain in their local areas if they are in an isolated community (such as an island) as opposed to a typical village within a larger province. While it is still possible for islanders from different islands to mate, it will happen at a much lower frequency than it would between villagers from different villages.

If an island were to have mostly normal humans and only a few Hylians, we would expect human phenotypes to dominate over time, even if Hylian traits are dominant, simply because the genotype ratio is slanted towards human characteristics. The same applies in reverse, but if Hylian traits are dominant, then we would expect the Hylian traits to dominate the phenotype pool even faster.

In the larger Hyrulean population, we have a greater and more diverse population, and therefore a much smaller sampling error among genotypes.

The shift from the larger, more diverse population to smaller, more isolated communities will result in what is called genetic drift, or a shift in genotype frequencies among the sample population.

Note to jhurvid: Obviously the genetic evidence I'm presenting is actually in favour of Hylian traits diminishing. I just think it will take longer than the time that passes between the flood and TWW for it to happen. Since I think TMC happens after TWW, and TMC seems to spread long ears across most of the population, I would say it hasn't happened by that point, either. All I really know is that it has happened by the time of ALttP.

Since I also think that the "New Hyrule" that I posit is the result of the Deku Tree's plan to reunite the world will be constantly growing between TMC and ALttP, as the smaller communities are annexed into the larger community, we'll get the sums of all the genetic drift from the shift from a larger population to a smaller one, and then have another case of genetic drift, this time as smaller local communities are annexed into one larger landmass.

The Hyrule seen in TMC would be a community that bore mostly Hylian traits, which would account for the prominence of long ears and the statement in ALttP that "long ago, the Hylians lived in this land."

While I admit that this theory is VERY imaginative, until the developers give us an account of how it took place, I think any explanation will suffice.

For those of you who say I'm fitting evidence to the theory, I should have you know that one of the reasons I put the 2D games after TWW is because I feel TWW provides a strong scenario in which the decline of Hylian civilization and the race itself would have taken place. So really I'm theorizing according to evidence that I already thought was in favour of my timeline.

If you don't understand the basics of genetics


I understand the basics of genetics. I also understand the basics of statistics.

#130 Impossible

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 01:36 AM

My understanding is that the Goddesses caused the flood by lowering the soil the Kingdom of Hyrule is built on beneath the sea surface. This accurately restricted the flooded area to Hyrule, sparing all adjacent lands.


I think we should stick with the idea of massive amounts of rain. The Great Sea clearly extends beyond the reach of Hyrule, as we see nothing but more ocean in every direction, and PH is an entirely separate region. I think the whole world would be affected... Although if the Goddesses created Hyrule, not a planet, you'd think that Hyrule would be all there is. Since it's fantasy anyway, maybe Hyrule isn't on a planet, but simply a flat surface (i.e. Golden Sun's world).

May I just point out that the people with long ears had a better chance of survival because they could hear the guiding voices of the gods?


That was the point of my post before. Surely, anyone in Hyrule went to the mountaintops. Perhaps even people from surrounding areas like Ordona did, too, and that's the reason for the mixing of races.

There's a difference between pointed ears and long ears. Which is why they say long ears in the game as opposed to simply saying pointed. I think most of the confusion comes from people assuming long ears encompasses all ear types besides round.


I said that, too... Many ears in TWW appear pointed, but they aren't long, nor do they point in the way Hylian ears do. It's possible that jhurvid is right, too, but we can't say they're round when they aren't, even if they're supposed to be.

#131 LionHarted

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 03:31 AM

Many ears in TWW appear pointed, but they aren't long, nor do they point in the way Hylian ears do. It's possible that jhurvid is right, too, but we can't say they're round when they aren't, even if they're supposed to be.


Most of the characters have identical or near-identical ears in the in-game sprites, and all of these characters are depicted with long ears in the official art.

#132 Arturo

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 07:17 AM

How does the great flood change genotypic frequences? By killing selectively people with long ears? Do you realize that you just don't understand what you have posted?


The population of Hyrule proper is not necessarily as balanced (or unbalanced, more likely) as the population of any of the individual islands on the Great Sea. Simple logic tells us that people will be more likely to remain in their local areas if they are in an isolated community (such as an island) as opposed to a typical village within a larger province. While it is still possible for islanders from different islands to mate, it will happen at a much lower frequency than it would between villagers from different villages.

If an island were to have mostly normal humans and only a few Hylians, we would expect human phenotypes to dominate over time, even if Hylian traits are dominant, simply because the genotype ratio is slanted towards human characteristics. The same applies in reverse, but if Hylian traits are dominant, then we would expect the Hylian traits to dominate the phenotype pool even faster.

In the larger Hyrulean population, we have a greater and more diverse population, and therefore a much smaller sampling error among genotypes.

The shift from the larger, more diverse population to smaller, more isolated communities will result in what is called genetic drift, or a shift in genotype frequencies among the sample population.

If you don't understand the basics of genetics


I understand the basics of genetics. I also understand the basics of statistics.

What you said is perfectly right.

But it has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

You have explained how Hylian phenotype can disappear from certain islands, while I have asked you how the flood would make the Hylian phenotype disappear from the whole world. There will always remain islands with a majority of Hylians, and in those islands without phenotypical Hylians, the genotype will remain constant. And once the islands are rejoined (as you claim they do), isolation should stop being an argument.

No matter how you make it look, pure-blood Hylians should still exist in AoL unless some selective genocide happens.

#133 Showsni

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 02:01 PM

No matter how you make it look, pure-blood Hylians should still exist in AoL unless some selective genocide happens.


And they do. Link, for example, is a pure blooded Hylian. Hylianness should not die out in any Zelda game, and it's comforting that you have evidence to support that.

I think part of the "Hylian blood has grown thin" we see is also due to people's beliefs; i.e. not necessarily strictly true. I wouldn't call myself a Celt, though for all I know I have strong Celtic blood. It's possible the same thing happens with the Hylians.

Plus we have to take migration into account. From ALttP, we know the Hylia settled in many different parts of the world; this implies they were originally nomadic. For all we know Hylia migrate into and out of Hyrule in between games; we can't say with any certainty that Hylianness constantly declines at an even rate, or even stays the same.


#134 Jumbie

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 06:07 PM

I think we should stick with the idea of massive amounts of rain.

I cannot stick to something I never believed.

The Great Sea clearly extends beyond the reach of Hyrule, as we see nothing but more ocean in every direction, and PH is an entirely separate region.

If we assume the seal encompassed the entire Hyrule of AoL (since TWW's Hyrule Castle is in the place of AoL's North Castle anyway), we'll be just fine with seeing nothing but ocean in TWW - because there was nothing else but ocean around AoL's Hyrule.

Although if the Goddesses created Hyrule, not a planet, you'd think that Hyrule would be all there is. Since it's fantasy anyway, maybe Hyrule isn't on a planet, but simply a flat surface (i.e. Golden Sun's world).

Haha, these ideas are getting more and more ridiculous every second! :blink:
Is it surprising I'm a Zelda theorist and not a Golden Sun theorist?
I've actually seen Zelda fans calculate the diameter of TWW's planet, based on the vanishing point of islands in the game. (Just to demonstrate how fans feel about the series.)

#135 Raien

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 06:13 PM

OoT's introduction refers to the goddesses creating "the red rock", which suggests it is a planet.

Edited by jhurvid, 08 April 2008 - 06:16 PM.


#136 LionHarted

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 07:10 PM

Although if the Goddesses created Hyrule, not a planet, you'd think that Hyrule would be all there is. Since it's fantasy anyway, maybe Hyrule isn't on a planet, but simply a flat surface (i.e. Golden Sun's world).


There are globes in TWW...

#137 Hana-Nezumi

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 07:30 PM

Although if the Goddesses created Hyrule, not a planet, you'd think that Hyrule would be all there is. Since it's fantasy anyway, maybe Hyrule isn't on a planet, but simply a flat surface (i.e. Golden Sun's world).


There are globes in TWW...

Not to mention artwork depicting the world as round~
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#138 CID Farwin

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 07:38 PM

Haha, these ideas are getting more and more ridiculous every second! :blink:
Is it surprising I'm a Zelda theorist and not a Golden Sun theorist?
I've actually seen Zelda fans calculate the diameter of TWW's planet, based on the vanishing point of islands in the game. (Just to demonstrate how fans feel about the series.)

See, this (i.e. current arguments along that vein) is the reason why I'm not posting as often as I want to.

#139 Raien

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 07:59 PM

See, this (i.e. current arguments along that vein) is the reason why I'm not posting as often as I want to.


What do you mean exactly?

#140 CID Farwin

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 08:34 PM

What do you mean exactly?


I mean the pointless arguments about irrelevant semantics(The exact nature of the flood in TWW, Hyrulean genetics, science vs. mythology: Zelda style) Not that I'm not fond of a few irrelevant discussions(i.e. geography) but seriously, these threads are just getting ridiculous. I highly doubt that developers had, say, biology class in mind when they wrote about the thinning Hylian blood in ALttP.

I'll be back when a worthwhile debate shows up (or mayble I'll just make one of my own.)

#141 Raien

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 09:35 PM

The reason why discussion on the relevance of science is being brought up now is because for a long time, it's never actually been discussed in any depth. People who believe in using genetics built their theories on it, whereas the people who don't believe in genetics developed other ideas. Given the stage we are in timeline theorising, and that the nature of the Hylian bloodline is a definite part of timeline theorising, it would be nice to come to a consensus on the subject now.

#142 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 12:26 AM

I mean the pointless arguments about irrelevant semantics(The exact nature of the flood in TWW, Hyrulean genetics, science vs. mythology: Zelda style) Not that I'm not fond of a few irrelevant discussions(i.e. geography) but seriously, these threads are just getting ridiculous. I highly doubt that developers had, say, biology class in mind when they wrote about the thinning Hylian blood in ALttP.


Quoted For Truth.

#143 Jumbie

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 01:08 AM

the nature of the Hylian bloodline is a definite part of timeline theorising

I haven't really used bloodline much to support a theory. Earlier in this thread, my involvement in the Hylian blood question was for fun, as my opinion on TMC's placement stands already (well yeah, that was the original question...).
Also in general, I've been oblivious to all the pedigrees of Link, Zelda, or the Knights that were thrown around in the past.

it would be nice to come to a consensus on the subject now.

We never will. It's a fundamental question about how each person wants their Zelda. I want mine with physical and natural laws applying, that is all.

I'm quite sure that I won't bring up genetics and other "forbidden" issues often while theorizing, because they mostly aren't of much help in solving timeline questions anyway. So we're all fine, okay?

#144 Impossible

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:57 AM

I cannot stick to something I never believed.


The game says it.

The flat world thing was just a random idea... It doesn't really matter.

Haha, these ideas are getting more and more ridiculous every second!


I agree, this topic is ridiculous. CID Farwin seems to be the only one with much reason here. It would be nice to have a decent, worthwhile debate again, unlike most of the nonsense going on at the moment.

#145 Raien

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 07:40 AM

I don't think any discussion is irrelevant, because whichever side of the debate someone stands on, it will help people either develop or cement their theories. I'm quite happy with the conclusions made regarding the decline of the Hylian race in TWW, which is the reason this topic was made, and I've enjoyed the recent discussion on science. If people don't want anymore of this, then I suggest closing the topic, but don't say that nothing could be drawn from this whatsoever, because that simply isn't true.




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