144 replies to this topic

[Raien]

If Aryll had long ears, that would make her just as valid a candidate for kidnapping as Tetra would. The bird was not specifically told to catch Tetra.

[Hero of Legend]

Yes, that is what Quill SHOULD have said - but instead he claimed the bird mistook them for one another, when in reality the King probably didn't care as long as he snatched one long eared girl. Frankly, it just seems like an unnessesary thing to say, which is why I pointed it out.

[Raien]

Yes, that is what Quill SHOULD have said - but instead he claimed the bird mistook them for one another, when in reality the King probably didn't care as long as he snatched one long eared girl. Frankly, it just seems like an unnessesary thing to say, which is why I pointed it out.

I guess it was Quill's way of placing responsibility on Tetra for Aryll's kidnapping.

[LionHarted]

The long ears detail actually seems to be overemphasized, at least in the NoA translation.

I think that's HoL's point.

[Hero of Legend]

Yes, that is what Quill SHOULD have said - but instead he claimed the bird mistook them for one another, when in reality the King probably didn't care as long as he snatched one long eared girl. Frankly, it just seems like an unnessesary thing to say, which is why I pointed it out.

I guess it was Quill's way of placing responsibility on Tetra for Aryll's kidnapping.

Yeah, probably. Still, I think it would be interesting to hear what the litteral Japanese translation has to say - for all of us.

The long ears detail actually seems to be overemphasized, at least in the NoA translation.

I think that's HoL's point.

Not really, no.

[Raien]

The long ears detail actually seems to be overemphasized, at least in the NoA translation.

I think that's HoL's point.

Wishful thinking, Lex. There's no reason at all to believe the detail is overemphasised; in fact, it's a major plot point since it leads to the kidnapping of Aryll and the very reason Link leaves Outset Island for his quest to save the Great Sea.

Edited by jhurvid, 02 April 2008 - 05:17 PM.

[Impossible]

Logic time!

Until TWW, Hyrule is sealed at the bottom of the ocean. So, no part of Hyrule proper, in the very least, was actually flooded. Hyrule is deserted in TWW, basically frozen in stasis. Ergo, nobody in Hyrule died in the flood, because Hyrule wasn't damaged. So everyone fled to the mountaintops, and probably didn't know that Hyrule was still down there.

Do we all feel like fucking idiots now?

[MikePetersSucks]

Uh, so? That doesn't necessarily effect the debate here. And do you always have to be so damn hostile and every one of your posts?

[Jumbie]

Logic time!

Until TWW, Hyrule is sealed at the bottom of the ocean. So, no part of Hyrule proper, in the very least, was actually flooded. Hyrule is deserted in TWW, basically frozen in stasis. Ergo, nobody in Hyrule died in the flood, because Hyrule wasn't damaged. So everyone fled to the mountaintops, and probably didn't know that Hyrule was still down there.

Do we all feel like fucking idiots now?

Not exactly, no. I've actually had that understanding since when I first played TWW.
That's why earlier I got upset about jhurvid implying the Hylians were the only people that survived the flood.

[Impossible]

It certainly does affect this debate, if we're trying to suggest that people died in the flood, changing the balance of Hyrule's races. Maybe the Gerudo could have been outside the preserved area, but aside from that, it's not possible.

What you choose to interpret as hostility is your problem. I was making fun of myself just as much as anyone else, because for some reason, that didn't occur to me. Or if it did, I just kind of ignored it with debates about races and Hylians.

[MikePetersSucks]

No one's ever suggested people had to die in the Flood. All this derailment was for nothing.

[Impossible]

Actually, jhurvid was talking about the flood survivors, as though there were many in Hyrule who did not survive the flood, and others have in the past, too. Jumbie said that it only makes sense that everyone would be saved, but I don't think he provided the proof.

[Raien]

Were the lands outside of Hyrule also sealed under the Great Sea? Because I notice that the short-eared people in TP were said to be outside of "Hyrule proper".

Edited by jhurvid, 07 April 2008 - 10:23 AM.

[Jumbie]

Actually, jhurvid was talking about the flood survivors, as though there were many in Hyrule who did not survive the flood, and others have in the past, too. Jumbie said that it only makes sense that everyone would be saved, but I don't think he provided the proof.

Right, I didn't. So it's not bad that you did then.

Were the lands outside of Hyrule also sealed under the Great Sea?

I'd say no, because we have no reason to assume so. My understanding is that the Goddesses caused the flood by lowering the soil the Kingdom of Hyrule is built on beneath the sea surface. This accurately restricted the flooded area to Hyrule, sparing all adjacent lands. The game only mentions torrential downpours, which would accordingly be the water masses of the Hyrulean ocean pouring down into the hole created, sealing the ancient kingdom beneath a vast ocean. That's at least the theory I've always been going with.

Moreover, this also explains why the sea level doesn't drop at the end of TWW even though the entire Hyrulean airspace is suddenly filled by water: because the overall ocean of the Zelda planet provides the filling water.

Edited by Jumbie, 07 April 2008 - 12:58 PM.

[Raien]

I'd say no, because we have no reason to assume so. My understanding is that the Goddesses caused the flood by lowering the soil the Kingdom of Hyrule is built on beneath the sea surface. This accurately restricted the flooded area to Hyrule, sparing all adjacent lands. The game only mentions torrential downpours, which would accordingly be the water masses of the Hyrulean ocean pouring down into the hole created, sealing the ancient kingdom beneath a vast ocean. That's at least the theory I've always been going with.

In my opinion, OoT and TP implicate that the land of Hyrule is populated mostly by long-eared Hylians. It is only in the outskirt areas (not part of "Hyrule proper", according to people in Castle Town) that we have evidence of short-eared humans. So if the Hylians are warned of an imminent flood, then people would have to ride very fast away from Hyrule in order to secure the lives of the people living outside of the kingdom. But wouldn't the Hylians be preoccupied with getting their own families to safety? It's not a simple matter of walking to the mountains; Hyrule was overrun by Ganon's monsters. The young and the eldery would need protection.

I know you say it's naive of me to presume there are no non-Hylians on the Great Sea (well, the part that is above Hyrule), but I think the storyline suggests that this is the case. The flood survivors are the descendants of Hyrule, and the King of Hyrule hoped that the people could revive the kingdom to its former glory.

Edited by jhurvid, 07 April 2008 - 01:11 PM.

[LionHarted]

In my opinion, you're attempting to change the common knowledge of ancestry and blood lineage to fit your theory of an exclusively Hylian population somehow becoming less Hylian.

[Raien]

In my opinion, you're attempting to change the common knowledge of ancestry and blood lineage to fit your theory of an exclusively Hylian population somehow becoming less Hylian.

Define "common knowledge". What we know from the Zelda universe is that people inherit the characteristics of their parents and the Hylian blood is inherently magical, giving the Hylians magical powers and the ability to hear the voices of the gods. These traits can be identified with traditional mythology, and the nature of the decline of the Hylian blood is ambiguous. I refuse to apply contemporary scientific knowledge to Zelda mythology, because contemporary science is not compatible with traditional mythology. Name one Greek myth or legend that incorporates protons/electrons into the development of lightning and then I'll accept genetics and evolution can be incorporated into Zelda mythology.

Edited by jhurvid, 07 April 2008 - 01:33 PM.

[LionHarted]

What we know from the Zelda universe is that people inherit the characteristics of their parents and the Hylian blood is inherently magical, giving the Hylians magical powers and the ability to hear the voices of the gods.

Yep.

Now tell me how the Hylian blood declines.

There is actually a compelling reason given, and it's that they "spread to all parts of the world." Which of course would imply that they settled down outside of traditional/Old Hyrule, which would further imply that they integrated into non-Hylian societies.

This is a very basic conclusion. You're arguing for a more complex conclusion.

NOTE: This was why I used to argue that TWW showed the decline of the Hylian blood. It does not necessarily show such a decline, but it DOES show Hylians being spread all across the world, and not in the sunken Hyrule.

Edited by LionHarted, 07 April 2008 - 01:48 PM.

[Raien]

Now tell me how the Hylian blood declines.

I don't claim to know how the Hylian blood declines. My argument is that whatever the exact reason is, it doesn't involve contemporary science.

There is actually a compelling reason given, and it's that they "spread to all parts of the world." Which of course would imply that they settled down outside of traditional/Old Hyrule, which would further imply that they integrated into non-Hylian societies.

Or that the magic in the Hylian blood declined as they left the sacred kingdom. Once again, I don't claim to know exactly how the Hylian blood declines in the Zelda mythology. But what we do know is that the concentration of long ears among humans centres strongly around the kingdom of Hyrule, which in my opinion ties the magic to the kingdom.

[LionHarted]

*shrugs*

I see it as unnecessarily complicated to say that anything besides Hylian blood has anything to do with their magical abilities and long ears.

[Raien]

I see it as unnecessarily complicated to say that anything besides Hylian blood has anything to do with their magical abilities and long ears.

That's because you see contemporary science as an alternative to the way magic works in traditional mythology. If you consider how blessings and curses are attached to people in other myths and legends, you can see that it has nothing to do with genetics. It's a symbolic attachment; something which affects the physical world without being strictly physical. The Belmont bloodline in the Castlevania series is blessed with the physical ability to wield Vampire Killer (the whip) and kill demons. So did the Belmonts get this ability through gene manipulation? Of course not. It's magical.

[LionHarted]

That's because you see contemporary science as an alternative to the way magic works in traditional mythology.

That's because this isn't traditional mythology; it's contemporary fantasy.

[Raien]

That's because this isn't traditional mythology; it's contemporary fantasy.

It's written by people living in the contemporary, but it emulates traditional mythology. The simple stories of heroes rescuing damsels in distress is a clear classic fairy-tale narrative structure. The way in which back stories are presented as legend is even clearer evidence of this emulation. If The Legend of Zelda emulated the contemporary world, the story and setting would be much closer to Final Fantasy, which uses contemporary narrative structures to bring out deeper, more character-driven storylines.


Also, as a separate point, Arturo has just told me that interbreeding cannot cause the decline of the Hylian bloodline because of the Hardy-Weinberg principle, which basically says genes don't disappear with interbreeding. So according to the principle, the Hylian blood should remain the same in AoL as it did in OoT.

http://en.wikipedia....dy_Weinberg_law

Edited by jhurvid, 07 April 2008 - 04:05 PM.

[Arturo]

Which is why genetics do not apply to Zelda

I'll elaborate a bit more...

Let's say we have a world. It is OoT and we have 1 million of Hylians there. All of them live in Hyrule. Outside of Hyrule you have 1 million of normal humans. Let's suppose that Hylian characteristic are controlled by one gene (for the sake of simplicity).

It is OoT. All Hylians live in Hyrule happily. They don't interbreed with normal humans. Their characteristics remain... until they came.

Humans slowly entered Hyrule peninsula. They married Hylians, and their children had none of Hylian characteristics. As they started to rule over the land of Hyrule, it seemed as if Hylian's blood would disappear forever... or would it?

Hardy Weinberg Law: (from Wikipedia ^^) states that the genotype frequencies in a population remain constant or are in equilibrium from generation to generation unless specific disturbing influences are introduced. Those disturbing influences include non-random mating, new mutations, selection, random genetic drift and gene flow. Genetic equilibrium is a basic principle of population genetics.

Application of Hardy Weinberg Law
p: Hylian gene
q: Human gene

In the beginning:
p=q=0.5
p+q=1
(p+q)²=1
p²+2pq+q²=1

p²=0.25: percentage of pure blood Hylians (pp)
2pq=0.5: percentage of half blood Hylians (pq)
q²=0.25: percentage of pure blood Hylians (qq)

As you see, even allowing complete interbreed, there would always be a 25% of Hylians. No matter how many generations passed, as the Law states, their numbers should never decrease from that point, unless there are disturbing influences (such as an advantage of humans over Hylians). And there are no disturbing influences, according to canon.

But what does canon say about Hardy Weinberg Law?
Maiden in Ice Palace:

But, over the long years, the Hylian blood has faded, and even we descendants of the Seven Sages do not have strong powers.

There's a clear conflict. Basic genetic Laws against Zelda canon. Who do you choose to believe?

[Hero of Legend]

That's only a contradiction if you assume that the mingling of Hylian blood (or genes) occurred before the Seal War, which seems to be the very opposite of what the game is trying to say. Furthermore, to assume that the Hylian characteristics are tied to only one gene, and that the gene in question is either dominant or recessive, is clearly oversimplifying the matter. Of course, I don't believe contemporary genetics apply to Zelda simply because of the apparently magical properties of certain bloodlines (See; Lanaruto and Medli), but that's just me.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 07 April 2008 - 05:02 PM.

[Raien]

That's only a contradiction if you assume that the mingling of Hylian blood (or genes) occurred before the Seal War, which seems to be the very opposite of what the game is trying to say.

The point is that no matter what point in which the Hylian blood mingled with other races, it can never decline. That is the scientific principle Arturo posted.

[Arturo]

That's only a contradiction if you assume that the mingling of Hylian blood (or genes) occurred before the Seal War, which seems to be the very opposite of what the game is trying to say. Of course, I don't believe contemporary genetics apply to Zelda simply because of the apparently magical properties of certain bloodlines, but that's just me.

Huh?

I think you didn't get it. When interbreeding happened doesn't matter. What matters is that no matter how much interbreeding there is, there will always be pure blood Hylians.

[LionHarted]

Hardy Weinberg Law: (from Wikipedia ^^) states that the genotype frequencies in a population remain constant or are in equilibrium from generation to generation unless specific disturbing influences are introduced. Those disturbing influences include non-random mating, new mutations, selection, random genetic drift and gene flow.

In all human populations, people usually select mates non-randomly for traits that are easily observable.

http://anthro.paloma...tic/synth_8.htm

So already we see that humans are subject to at least one of the disturbing influences.

In population genetics, genetic drift (or more precisely allelic drift) is the evolutionary process of change in the allele frequencies (or gene frequencies) of a population from one generation to the next due to the phenomena of probability in which purely chance events determine which alleles (variants of a gene) within a reproductive population will be carried forward while others disappear. Especially in the case of small populations, the statistical effect of sampling error during random sampling of certain alleles from the overall population may result in an allele, and the biological traits that it confers, to become more common or rare over successive generations, and result in evolutionary change over time.

i.e., if chance events change gene frequencies (such as a great flood which forces a population from a large landmass onto comparatively tiny islands), the genotype frequencies will change.

In population genetics, gene flow (also known as gene migration) is the transfer of alleles of genes from one population to another.

Migration into or out of a population may be responsible for a marked change in allele frequencies (the proportion of members carrying a particular variant of a gene).

Hopefully you can figure this one out. :]

[Hero of Legend]

Huh?

I think you didn't get it. When interbreeding happened doesn't matter. What matters is that no matter how much interbreeding there is, there will always be pure blood Hylians.

Yeah, I added a little about that. There's also the point to be made about dominant genes (sometimes) strengthening each other, which could explain a further (apparent) "weakening" of the bloodline. My point, however, was that there is no reason to believe there is not further non-Hylian immigration into Hyrule even during the time of ALttP, and so, the problem only arises if you make that assumption.

Like I said, though, it doesn't seem like the principles of genetics apply anyway (individual traits are carried on forever), so it does not matter.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 07 April 2008 - 05:11 PM.

[Arturo]

Hardy Weinberg Law: (from Wikipedia ^^) states that the genotype frequencies in a population remain constant or are in equilibrium from generation to generation unless specific disturbing influences are introduced. Those disturbing influences include non-random mating, new mutations, selection, random genetic drift and gene flow.

In all human populations, people usually select mates non-randomly for traits that are easily observable.

http://anthro.paloma...tic/synth_8.htm

So already we see that humans are subject to at least one of the disturbing influences.

For God's sake, it's a LAW. IT'S AN IDEALIZATION OF REALITY. IT'S NEVER PERFECTLY FULFILLED, BUT ALMOST ALWAYS FULFILLED.

There are disturbing influences, but those influences are small enough to be ignored.

i.e., if chance events change gene frequencies (such as a great flood which forces a population from a large landmass onto comparatively tiny islands), the genotype frequencies will change.

How does the great flood change genotypic frequences? By killing selectively people with long ears? Do you realize that you just don't understand what you have posted?

Hopefully you can figure this one out. :]

In my example, I supposed that the whole world interbred, so no more migration was possible. I picked an extreme example to prove that immigration cannot make it disappear. Anything inbetween would result with a much higher percentage of Hylians in Hyrule.

If you don't understand the basics of genetics, please, don't try to argue. I might not be an expert, but I know more than you about this certain topic. And trust me, Hardy Weinberg's Law predicts that Hylians shouldn't disappear.


And I still don't get your point, HoL.But oh well ^^