144 replies to this topic

[CID Farwin]

This argument has officially confuzzled me.

so what if her ears are pointed, round, or like this guy's?
 getimage.php.jpg   11.68K   15 downloads

what exactly is anyone trying to prove here?

Quill notes that girls are getting kidnapped because of their long ears. This would have to be a rarity (or at least, not a common feature,) otherwise there is no point in saying so. Long ears are a sign of the Hylian people. Through other aspects of the game one comes to the conclusion that Ganondorf is kidnapping girls in hopes of getting Zelda, who as the Hylian princess would have long ears.

Where is this going????

Edited by CID Farwin, 31 March 2008 - 06:38 PM.

[LionHarted]

Quill notes that girls are getting kidnapped because of their long ears. This would have to be a rarity (or at least, not a common feature,) otherwise there is no point in saying so. Long ears are a sign of the Hylian people.

You gave the point in saying so in the sentence immediately following the sentence in bold.

Edited by LionHarted, 31 March 2008 - 07:27 PM.

[Jumbie]

what exactly is anyone trying to prove here?

Well, I'm trying to prove that nonsensical debates have a certain appeal to people.^^

Quill notes that girls are getting kidnapped because of their long ears. This would have to be a rarity (or at least, not a common feature,) otherwise there is no point in saying so.

LionHarted, Showsni and me do not see it that way. Meaning that it's not that obvious.

Long ears are a sign of the Hylian people.

And of the Rito people!

[Raien]

1) Any argument pertaining to the Ritos' long ears is irrelevant to the distinction of humans with long ears. To cite a previous example, just because blonde hair is common amongst white people doesn't make it any less distinct when visible amongst black people.

2) If long ears were commonplace amongst humans on the Great Sea, then it would be useless for Ganondorf to identify Zelda by the long ears. The process of elimination requires a large degree of elimination to be effective. Whatever the size of the Great Sea's population, the long ears must still be a small percentage in order for Ganondorf to effectively apply his method.

3) If the two kidnapped girls were the only girls on Windfall island, the long ears would not be distinguished by the islanders (and Quill tells us that it was the Islanders who made that initial distinction). Thus, we can deduce that there were girls on Windfall Island who were not kidnapped, and the only visible difference between them were the long ears. In other words, evidence of an invisible population that the game only represents, not shows.

The point of this argument is that since we know the far majority of flood survivors (if not all the flood survivors) were Hylian due to their ability to hear the voices of the gods, any evidence pertaining to the distinction of the long ears is evidence pertaining to the decline of the long ears since the flood. This potentially puts it at odds with ALTTP, where the decline of the long ears is not as recognisable.

Edited by jhurvid, 31 March 2008 - 09:05 PM.

[LionHarted]

And of the Rito people!

And the Sheikah. And the Kokiri. And the Picori. And the Oracles.

[CID Farwin]

LMFAO MAGIKLE CRETURZ LIEK ELFZ HAZ POIENTY ERZ!

Which is why everyone in the early games has pointy ears.

Which is why the distinction is made with Hylians' long ears.

If there were nothing special about the long ears (which there is, because they mean Hylian) then there would be no point in bringing it up.

If everyone on the Great Sea had long ears then they wouldn't be something used as a means of identification, because everyone would be Hylian.

Which is what I've been saying.

jhurvid's argument confuses me, because it's not clear what he's arguing against, or what opposing posts are arguing against.


Freakin' crap, guys, this is ridiculous.

[Impossible]

jhurvid is arguing against LionHarted, it's LionHarted whose point nobody understands.

I've been saying the entire time that people in TWW don't have LONG ears, except for the ones more directly related to Hylians, most of whom are STATED (or in the case of the pirates, hinted) to have long ears in the story.

[LionHarted]

My point is that all Quill is saying is that Ganondorf is hunting girls who are descended from Hylians (as opposed to Rito, for instance, or normal humans). How is that hard to understand, please and thank you?

My argument against jhurvid's point is that he's saying that this implies long ears are rare, when they are in fact not if we look at the characters in the game.

Edited by LionHarted, 01 April 2008 - 06:13 AM.

[Impossible]

Based on the facts the story gives us (1. It's observed from two people that long ears are the connection between kidnapped girls, 2. Ganondorf uses long ears to narrow down his search), we have to assume that the people we see in the game are NOT an accurate reflection of everyone on the Great Sea. There are other girls who don't have long ears (again, keep in mind that Ganondorf shouldn't know how old Zelda is), but most of them have no relevance to the game, so we don't meet them.

[Raien]

My point is that all Quill is saying is that Ganondorf is hunting girls who are descended from Hylians (as opposed to Rito, for instance, or normal humans). How is that hard to understand, please and thank you?

Because that's not what Quill says, and that is not the information Quill received from the islanders. The distinction is the long ears on humans, not the race of humans. You're deliberately changing the context of Quill's speech to make him say what you want him to say.

My argument against jhurvid's point is that he's saying that this implies long ears are rare, when they are in fact not if we look at the characters in the game.

I've just turned on the game and now I see where the confusion's arising from. Although most ears are meant to be round, the sprites don't have the polygon count to depict accurate roundness; so round ears still appear elongated and pointed when viewed from certain angles. And yet when you look at them from other angles, you can see another point further down that gives the ear a more rounded shape so that it doesn't elongate upwards. I find that the character trophies make it much easier to distinguish long ears from round ears, although the distinction can be made with the main character sprites.

And from my observation, I can see that just about everyone on Windfall Island has round ears; even Maggie's father. On the other hand, long ears are more commonplace on Outset Island (but not everyone there possesses them either). But since the distinction of long ears came from Windfall Island, the visuals at least show that this distinction is supported.

Edited by jhurvid, 01 April 2008 - 08:20 AM.

[LionHarted]

How am I changing the context of what Quill is saying? I'm taking it at its bare meaning.

Although most ears are meant to be round, the sprites don't have the polygon count to depict accurate roundness; so round ears still appear elongated and pointed when viewed from certain angles.

No; they definitely have the ability to produce accurate roundness. They do it with the faces and eyes, after all, as well as with the few characters who don't have pointed ears in the official art.

Also, the ears of people on Outset are no different than the ears of people anywhere else.
Case in point

Edited by LionHarted, 01 April 2008 - 08:51 AM.

[Raien]

How am I changing the context of what Quill is saying? I'm taking it at its bare meaning.

It's bare meaning would be that the girls are distinguished by their long ears, but you've been arguing that the long ears are only representative of another meaning; that they're Hylian descendants. That's not taking the bare meaning; that's deriving a different meaning from the stated meaning.

No; they definitely have the ability to produce accurate roundness. They do it with the faces and eyes, after all, as well as with the few characters who don't have pointed ears in the official art.

For all the characters said to have long ears, the top tip of the ear is the farthest point away from the head. For everyone else on Windfall Island, the farthest point away from the head is a point lower down, which creates a more rounded shape. This distinguishes the round ears from the long ears.

Also, the ears of people on Outset are no different than the ears of people anywhere else.
Case in point

Grandma is debatable, but certainly everyone except Rose and her children have long ears.

Edited by jhurvid, 01 April 2008 - 09:23 AM.

[Impossible]

And from my observation, I can see that just about everyone on Windfall Island has round ears; even Maggie's father.

I pointed this out quite some time back, now. >_> Their ears aren't perfectly rounded, but they are NOT long. They remain up against the sides of peoples' heads, with the polygons kind of melding into their heads, not sticking out.

I guess Maggie gets her ears from her mother...

[FDL]

This is the most ridiculous debate I've seen in a while...

[Jumbie]

I've just turned on the game and now I see where the confusion's arising from. Although most ears are meant to be round, the sprites don't have the polygon count to depict accurate roundness; so round ears still appear elongated and pointed when viewed from certain angles. And yet when you look at them from other angles, you can see another point further down that gives the ear a more rounded shape so that it doesn't elongate upwards. I find that the character trophies make it much easier to distinguish long ears from round ears, although the distinction can be made with the main character sprites.

Doesn't anyone know a good game designer / 3D modeller we could call in in regards to the ear polygons issue? This uncertainty is giving me sleepless nights!

[Showsni]

Well, it is April the first...

But I'm afraid everyone here is actually quite serious.

So how many pixels are required to say whether an ear is definitely pointy or not?

Which is more accurate; Sue-Belle's official art, in game appearance or figurine?

Just how many unseen girls are in TWW?

How many of these are:
a) kidnapped
b) pointy eared
c) hot?

Are pointy ears enough to define Hylianness?

Is being Hylian sure to result in pointy ears?

Can blood thinning dilute Hylianness?

Can Hylianness be lost magically despite pure breeding?

Where does Quill get his information?

Has he performed a statistically significant test, or is he just guessing?

[Raien]

For the last time everyone, the purpose of this debate is to decide whether the Hylians' long ears declines with the Hylian bloodline in TWW. I am arguing for the decline of the long ears, and Lex is arguing against. To begin with, we can all deduce that the majority of humans on the Great Sea are Hylian descendants, because it was the Hylians who had the ability to hear the guiding voices of the gods. Thus, in order to show that no decline of the long ears exists, Lex must argue that most people on the Great Sea have long ears.

I have put forward three points to show why the majority of people on the Great Sea don't have long ears.

1) Quill refers to what he has heard from the people of Windfall Island, and it is they who distinguish the kidnapped girls' long ears, which means there must be appropriate comparisons with short ears on Windfall Island. Now, there are three other girls on Windfall Island; one who is older than the kidnapped girls and is secretly in love with another man on the island, and the two young girls who tell secrets for rupees. If these three are not suitable comparisons, then there must be an invisible population on Windfall Island in order to make the distinction. Whichever is correct is up to the theorist.

2) The distinction of the long ears is also indicative of Ganondorf targetting Zelda by her long ears; the defining characteristic of the Hylian race. But if everyone on the Great Sea possessed long ears, then this process of elimination would be useless.

3) Lex is arguing that just about all people in TWW have long ears because they show a distinct point. My argument is that although the ears do have a distinct point, there is another distinct point further down that gives the ears a more rounded shape. Only in the characters said to have long ears, and several others on Outset Island, does this rounded shape not occur. Thus, I think this is a deliberate distinction of the long ears from the round ears on the Great Sea.


If no one has anything useful to say regarding the debate, then please let go of the cynicism and move on. No one is forcing you to read this topic, and all discussion does help people identify what is important to theorising.

[LionHarted]

1) It is an assumption that Quill hears this from Windfall Island. He could very well hear it from any number of other sources, such as the Fishmen. Additionally, assuming characters we don't see have short ears is preposterous.

2) Straw man. Neither I nor anybody else said everybody on the Great Sea had long ears. We're simply saying that there's no direct evidence of a decline of the ears.

Lex is arguing that just about all people in TWW have long ears because they show a distinct point.

Wrong. I am arguing that just about all people in TWW have long ears because there is little to no differences between most of their ears. A few characters on Outset Island (the mother of Zill & the other boy whose name I can't remember), as well as Zill and the other boy themselves.

My argument is that although the ears do have a distinct point, there is another distinct point further down that gives the ears a more rounded shape.

Which appears on Link's ears, too.

http://www.explodedg.../windwaker1.jpg

Edited by LionHarted, 02 April 2008 - 08:35 AM.

[Raien]

1) It is an assumption that Quill hears this from Windfall Island. He could very well hear it from any number of other sources, such as the Fishmen. Additionally, assuming characters we don't see have short ears is preposterous.

Given that the fishmen would never have seen the girls, and that no one else would have personally known the girls or noticed their disappearance, the only realistic source must have been the people of Windfall Island.

And if we can't assume an invisible population, that means the kidnapped girls must be distinguished from the other girls by their long ears, proving that the other girls are meant to have round ears.

2) Straw man. Neither I nor anybody else said everybody on the Great Sea had long ears. We're simply saying that there's no direct evidence of a decline of the ears.

You're saying that almost everyone has long ears then, which is the point of argument. I was generalising.

Wrong. I am arguing that just about all people in TWW have long ears because there is little to no differences between most of their ears. A few characters on Outset Island (the mother of Zill & the other boy whose name I can't remember), as well as Zill and the other boy themselves.

But there is a clear difference in ears due to the extent of the lower point away from the head, which creates a rounded shape. In all the cases where there are clear long ears, it is because the lower point does not extend further than the top point, so the shape remains triangular.

Which appears on Link's ears, too.

It does, but it doesn't extend further than the top point, so it doesn't create a rounded shape.

Edited by jhurvid, 02 April 2008 - 10:32 AM.

[Jumbie]

To begin with, we can all deduce that the majority of humans on the Great Sea are Hylian descendants, because it was the Hylians who had the ability to hear the guiding voices of the gods.

Did you ever consider the Hylians may have been kind enough to actually inform the other tribes of the flood? (I'm mainly referring to Ordonians and Gerudos, the other human tribes). There's no reason for any of OoT's tribes to be extinct by TWW, even if we don't see them in-game, the ocean is vast enough.
The Goddesses didn't intend to get rid of all peoples except Hylians, so don't twist Zelda's Great Flood into a Noah story.

Quill refers to what he has heard from the people of Windfall Island, and it is they who distinguish the kidnapped girls' long ears, which means there must be appropriate comparisons with short ears on Windfall Island.

No, he refers to what he has heard on "many different islands":

Now, as my work entails delivering letters,
I spend much of my time traveling amongst
the many different islands. As a result,
I hear many things...
Haven't any of you heard word that young
girls have been getting kidnapped lately
from all regions of the Great Sea?

No matter. Whether you've heard it or not,
that seems to be the case. Young girls with
long ears like yours have been getting
kidnapped, never to be seen again.
And unless my eyes fail me, the young girl
who was just kidnapped from this island
also has long ears, does she not? Much
like YOU do, Miss Fearsome Pirate.
My point is that the bird mistook that poor
girl for you, and that's why it grabbed her!

Edited by Jumbie, 02 April 2008 - 12:42 PM.

[Hero of Legend]

Funny Note: Quill's explanation that the Helmaroc King "mistook" Arryl for Tetra doesn't make much sense - unless that helmet made it very hard for him too see, and Ganondorf had equipped it with long-range-ear-radar for the occasion. I wonder, did NoA add that part?

Eh... On topic, I've got nothing, really. Fact: There are a limited number of Hylians in TWW, and Link and Zelda are two of them. That's about everything we know. Remember that no game has shown any special traits or abilities of the Hylian populace at large, so aside from the ears, there isn't a lot of evidence to go on either way, whether we are talking about TWW, TP or TMC.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 02 April 2008 - 01:26 PM.

[Fyxe]

Funny Note: Quill's explanation that the Helmaroc King "mistook" Arryl for Tetra doesn't make much sense - unless that helmet made it very hard for him too see, and Ganondorf had equipped it with long-range-ear-radar for the occasion. I wonder, did NoA add that part?

It's a bird. I'm sure all blonde-haired girls with long ears look alike to, y'know, a bird. Although it does beg the question why it didn't grab Link...

[LionHarted]

It's a bird. I'm sure all blonde-haired girls with long ears look alike to, y'know, a bird. Although it does beg the question why it didn't grab Link...

No kidding. Since he's wearing a skirt and Tetra's wearing very boyish clothes.

[Arturo]

It smells pheromones XP

[Raien]

Did you ever consider the Hylians may have been kind enough to actually inform the other tribes of the flood? (I'm mainly referring to Ordonians and Gerudos, the other human tribes). There's no reason for any of OoT's tribes to be extinct by TWW, even if we don't see them in-game, the ocean is vast enough.
The Goddesses didn't intend to get rid of all peoples except Hylians, so don't twist Zelda's Great Flood into a Noah story.

I never said that ALL the flood survivors were Hylian; I said MOST of the flood survivors were Hylian. Because let's face it; it's part of the storyline.

No, he refers to what he has heard on "many different islands"

That's interesting. Ganondorf has apparently kidnapped girls from places beyond Windfall Island, which is evidence of an invisible population. Well I never...

Haven't any of you heard word that young girls have been getting kidnapped lately from all regions of the Great Sea?

And it supports that Ganondorf was using the process of elimination with the long ears.

And unless my eyes fail me, the young girl who was just kidnapped from this island also has long ears, does she not? Much like YOU do, Miss Fearsome Pirate. My point is that the bird mistook that poor girl for you, and that's why it grabbed her!

[LionHarted]

That's interesting. Ganondorf has apparently kidnapped girls from places beyond Windfall Island, which is evidence of an invisible population. Well I never...

Which doesn't support either conclusion. References to an invisible population don't tell us anything about that invisible population, especially since there are members of a visible population who are also part of this reference.

[Raien]

Which doesn't support either conclusion. References to an invisible population don't tell us anything about that invisible population, especially since there are members of a visible population who are also part of this reference.

That's where both the distinction of girls with long ears and the process of elimination comes in. Both of these points support that long ears are in the minority.

[LionHarted]

Both of these points support that long ears are in the minority.

How does this happen if the majority of the survivors are Hylian?

[Raien]

How does this happen if the majority of the survivors are Hylian?

If the long ears decline with the bloodline, which is the very point of this debate.

[Hero of Legend]

Funny Note: Quill's explanation that the Helmaroc King "mistook" Arryl for Tetra doesn't make much sense - unless that helmet made it very hard for him too see, and Ganondorf had equipped it with long-range-ear-radar for the occasion. I wonder, did NoA add that part?

It's a bird. I'm sure all blonde-haired girls with long ears look alike to, y'know, a bird. Although it does beg the question why it didn't grab Link...

Yes, I had considered that, but like you said, he didn't take Link - in fact, he only took girls - and if he can tell the difference between Hylian girls and other people, I figure he'd notice if one of his victims was tanned or not.

I guess it doesn't make any great difference either way, I just thought it was worth mentioning.