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On the nature of Hylianness


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#31 LionHarted

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 03:31 PM

Then why bother to mention the Ritos' long ears?


I suppose it was to demonstrate that long ears are not peculiar to Quill.

You at least have to discount FSA's map as evidence, then. If backgrounds are that damn important.


Do I? The islands in the background are not as close as they appear in LoZ/AoL, this is true, but there ARE islands there.

#32 Showsni

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 05:53 PM

And it's an interesting thing that no villain has ever been shown to come from within Hyrule; it's always presented in the context of an invasion.


Except possibly LoZ Ganon; he could come from Hyrule.

Looking around TWW, we can see there aren't enough girls to say anything about them; so you have to speculate a lot more girls "off camera." Can we do this? It's like saying there must be unseen crop fields in the games to feed so many people, or something. Are we allowed to add things the game doesn't show us, but should logically be there? (I.e. enough extra girls on the Great Sea to make Quill's remark sensible.)


#33 Raien

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 08:35 PM

I suppose it was to demonstrate that long ears are not peculiar to Quill.


But long ears on humans would be peculiar, just like most people would find blonde hair on black people peculiar.

#34 LionHarted

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 09:21 PM

But long ears on humans would be peculiar, just like most people would find blonde hair on black people peculiar.


Either that or he just doesn't know that they're called/descended from Hylians, so that's the only way he can refer to them, or that he's trying to say this without explicitly saying "Hylian."

Which is what I'm arguing, more or less.

#35 Raien

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 09:54 PM

Either that or he just doesn't know that they're called/descended from Hylians, so that's the only way he can refer to them, or that he's trying to say this without explicitly saying "Hylian."


Well, the kingdom of Hyrule is all but forgotten, except for a vague legend on Outset Island. But I still don't see your point. If the long ears were prominent among humans, the long ears would not be recognised as the connection between the (two) kidnapped girls. And likewise, it would not be suitable for Ganondorf's process of elimination, which was the primary purpose behind the "long ears" plot point to begin with.

#36 LionHarted

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 09:57 PM

If the long ears were prominent among humans, the long ears would not be recognised as the connection between the (two) kidnapped girls. And likewise, it would not be suitable for Ganondorf's process of elimination, which was the primary purpose behind the "long ears" plot point to begin with.


It would if girls with long ears were being captured and no girls without long ears were.

#37 Raien

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 10:06 PM

It would if girls with long ears were being captured and no girls without long ears were.


The two long-eared girls from Windfall Island, Tetra and Aryll fit that statement.

#38 LionHarted

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 10:28 PM

The two long-eared girls from Windfall Island, Tetra and Aryll fit that statement.


Considering they're the only girls in that age range in the entire game...

#39 Raien

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 10:30 PM

Considering they're the only girls in that age range in the entire game...


In which case the long ears would not need to be mentioned. Except they are, of course.

#40 LionHarted

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 10:31 PM

In which case the long ears would not need to be mentioned. Except they are, of course.


That there are no girls in that age range in the game without long ears doesn't serve to support your point in the slightest, I'll have you know. If long-eared girls are so rare, then there should be more short-eared ones than there are.

#41 Raien

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 10:46 PM

That there are no girls in that age range in the game without long ears doesn't serve to support your point in the slightest, I'll have you know.


If there were really only two girls on Windfall Island, all that would need to be said was "two girls were kidnapped". The long ears would be a completely pointless and unnecessary distinction, and it would not realistically occur in that situation. Therefore, we can deduce from the fact that the long ears are distinguishable that the long ears are a rarity among Windfall Islanders, not the population of young girls.

If long-eared girls are so rare, then there should be more short-eared ones than there are.


To repeat an old argument, you assume that more people have long ears than there actually are. The reason for this is that the TWW art style does not clearly distinguish the long ears from the short ears. And then as Fyxe proved, there are even disrcepancies between the official artwork and the character sprites. It's unreliable to determine the number of long-eared people on the Great Sea from visuals, and so we must rely on the plot point as the main indication.

Edited by jhurvid, 29 March 2008 - 10:48 PM.


#42 LionHarted

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 11:08 PM

If there were really only two girls on Windfall Island, all that would need to be said was "two girls were kidnapped". The long ears would be a completely pointless and unnecessary distinction, and it would not realistically occur in that situation. Therefore, we can deduce from the fact that the long ears are distinguishable that the long ears are a rarity among Windfall Islanders, not the population of young girls.


You have to take the unrealistically small scale of the game into account.

The reason for this is that the TWW art style does not clearly distinguish the long ears from the short ears.


Yes, it does. Jumbie has demonstrated this.

#43 Impossible

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 12:44 AM

Do I? The islands in the background are not as close as they appear in LoZ/AoL, this is true, but there ARE islands there.


I'm talking about TMC's background. From the top of Mt. Crenel, Hyrule stretches on for miles more to the north, with no ocean in sight. This contradicts FSA, which suggests that ONLY the locations in that game are on an island.

If there were really only two girls on Windfall Island, all that would need to be said was "two girls were kidnapped". The long ears would be a completely pointless and unnecessary distinction, and it would not realistically occur in that situation. Therefore, we can deduce from the fact that the long ears are distinguishable that the long ears are a rarity among Windfall Islanders, not the population of young girls.


You have to take the unrealistically small scale of the game into account.


Er, yeah, that's jhurvid's point. There are more people on Windfall who we simply don't see. The fact that from two people, long ears are immediately identified as the thing they have in common, can only mean that the majority of people don't have long ears. If the people we meet were proportionately true to a realistic Windfall, there would be absolutely no reason to say that girls with long ears are being kidnapped. So the other girls don't have ears that long.

There are two things to consider here.

1. After two kidnappings, people immediately see that girls with long ears are being kidnapped.
2. Ganondorf uses long ears as a way to narrow down people who may be Zelda to a small number.

The only possibly conclusion from both of these points is that long ears, and hence Hylians, are a minority. There would be no other reason to link the two girls from Windfall like that. You would just say that girls are being kidnapped.

Also, Ganondorf doesn't know how old Zelda is. He could kidnap any female.

The reason for this is that the TWW art style does not clearly distinguish the long ears from the short ears.


Yes, it does. Jumbie has demonstrated this.


But there are people who have pointed ears that are not actually true Hylian ears (which in TWW, point outwards). In fact, many people on Windfall are like that, but the kidnapped girls are not.

If Lex's point is that people with long ears are not necessarily Hylians, that doesn't in any way show what he's actually looking for if he intends to prove something, which is presumably that all people with long ears are not Hylian. Which is never the case in any Zelda game, and never will be. I still can't see what he thinks he's proving, and he hasn't answered that.

#44 Fyxe

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 07:28 AM

That there are no girls in that age range in the game without long ears doesn't serve to support your point in the slightest, I'll have you know. If long-eared girls are so rare, then there should be more short-eared ones than there are.

Your logic is so agonisingly circular I HAD to speak out again.

You say on one hand that there aren't any other girls in that age range in the game.

Then you say on the other hand that there should be more short-eared girls.

...More out of a population of WHAT? Zero? You think more of that zero percent should be short-eared?

The fact is, there are no other girls of that age in the game. Now, logically, there aren't only three young girls in the whole world. That'd be nonsense. But they're the only ones in the game, because it's a video game.

That's about all there is to it. o.o

#45 LionHarted

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 07:54 AM

Your logic is so agonisingly circular I HAD to speak out again.

You say on one hand that there aren't any other girls in that age range in the game.

Then you say on the other hand that there should be more short-eared girls.

...More out of a population of WHAT? Zero? You think more of that zero percent should be short-eared?


Yes; if they're trying to show that a certain trait is rare (which jhurvid claims), then why does an overwhelming majority of the characters in the game share that trait? Particularly if they're trying to show that Ganon is capturing only long-eared girls, why are there no short-eared girls who haven't been captured?

Hence, I suggest they're not trying to show that, but that they're simply trying to say that Hylians/descendants of Hylians are being captured (which is all that Quill says; that long-eared girls are being captured).

Edited by LionHarted, 30 March 2008 - 07:57 AM.


#46 Raien

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 08:35 AM

You have to take the unrealistically small scale of the game into account.


The smaller the total population of Windfall Island, the less reason there would be to distinguish the long ears from the kidnapped girls. And if we speculatively add more people to Windfall Island's population, we are still left with the fact that the long ears are clearly distinguished as a noticeable feature. Whichever way you approach the situation, long ears among humans cannot be common.

Yes, it does. Jumbie has demonstrated this.


The long ears are not distinguished to the same degree. There are ears which from some angles look pointy but from other angles look round. This is a far cry from OoT/TP, in which the long ears pointed outwards to such an extent that you could not help but see that they were pointed.

And Fyxe has further demonstrated that the visuals are unreliable. Characters depicted with short ears in character sprites are depicted with long ears in official artwork. It's an unreliable source that you choose and it defeats the entire point of the "long ears" plot device, which was deliberately created to draw the player's attention to the fact that long ears are not commonplace and something people actively distinguish.

Edited by jhurvid, 30 March 2008 - 08:57 AM.


#47 Fyxe

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 08:37 AM

I think they simply assume that the audience will trust what the game TELLS THEM.

Of course the trait is fairly rare, else it would just say that Ganondorf was capturing young girls and wouldn't mention the ears. And if it wasn't rare, as you claim, don't you think he'd have more than three girls already?

...Just give it up already. Everyone, stop arguing with him. This is going to go on forever. @.@

#48 Arturo

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 08:38 AM

Yes; if they're trying to show that a certain trait is rare (which jhurvid claims), then why does an overwhelming majority of the characters in the game share that trait? Particularly if they're trying to show that Ganon is capturing only long-eared girls, why are there no short-eared girls who haven't been captured?

Hence, I suggest they're not trying to show that, but that they're simply trying to say that Hylians/descendants of Hylians are being captured (which is all that Quill says; that long-eared girls are being captured).

Maybe because they cannot make a limitless number of girls?

Games are limited, but the storyline clearly implies having pointed ears is... rare.

Edited by Arturo, 30 March 2008 - 08:39 AM.


#49 LionHarted

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 10:44 AM

Maybe because they cannot make a limitless number of girls?


Again, it would be easy to make a majority of the characters short-eared.

The long ears are not distinguished to the same degree.


This is true even among the characters said to have long ears so it's really a moot point.

Characters depicted with short ears in character sprites are depicted with long ears in official artwork.


Like whom?

And, nope, Sue-Belle has the same ears as the majority of the characters in the game.



Anyway, this argument is going in circles, so we can agree to disagree.

My argument: The long ears of the Hylian race are so prevalent in every game that there is no compelling basis for a significant decline of this trait among Hylian descendants. Quill's quote is merely meant to foreshadow Tetra's significance in the game's plot.
jhurvid's argument: The visuals in the game are misleading and unclear, and only the quote by Quill saying that Ganondorf is kidnapping girls with long ears is important in determining the prevalence of the trait.

Yes?

Edited by LionHarted, 30 March 2008 - 11:02 AM.


#50 Raien

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 11:19 AM

This is true even among the characters said to have long ears so it's really a moot point.


Right, so the fact that the long ears are not easily distinguishable is evidence that we can't rely upon visuals.

And, nope, Sue-Belle has the same ears as the majority of the characters in the game.


Sue-Belle has long ears in the artwork and round ears in the character sprite, according to the pictures that Jumbie and Fyxe has provided. This shows a clear discrepancy.

My argument: The long ears of the Hylian race are so prevalent in every game that there is no compelling basis for a significant decline of this trait among Hylian descendants. Quill's quote is merely meant to foreshadow Tetra's significance in the game's plot.
jhurvid's argument: The visuals in the game are misleading and unclear, and only the quote by Quill saying that Ganondorf is kidnapping girls with long ears is important in determining the prevalence of the trait.

Yes?


That sounds right. Quill's evidence that the long ears are distinguished is more reliable than the visuals, which have been shown to be confusing due to the nature of the art style.

Edited by jhurvid, 30 March 2008 - 11:20 AM.


#51 LionHarted

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 11:43 AM

Sue-Belle has long ears in the artwork and round ears in the character sprite, according to the pictures that Jumbie and Fyxe has provided. This shows a clear discrepancy.


I just played the game.

She has the same ears as everybody else.

#52 Kairu Hakubi

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 01:18 PM

In this vein, y'know what confused the hell outta me? G-dorf looked like HE had pointy ears in TWW, and gerudos -definitely- don't.

#53 Arturo

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 02:09 PM

Sue-Belle has long ears in the artwork and round ears in the character sprite, according to the pictures that Jumbie and Fyxe has provided. This shows a clear discrepancy.


I just played the game.

She has the same ears as everybody else.

Then, what is this?

#54 Jumbie

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 02:50 PM

In this vein, y'know what confused the hell outta me? G-dorf looked like HE had pointy ears in TWW, and gerudos -definitely- don't.

That annoyed me for a long time, too. But when in TP they gave Ganondorf pointed ears *again*, I checked back in OoT and found that the Ganondorf of the Child Era still has the appropriate round ears whereas the Ganondorf of the Adult Era suddenly has long and pointed ears...

So since his ears apparently grow during the seven years in OoT, that makes his pointed ears in TWW and TP acceptable.
I think they grew pointed because he turned into a Maou, who are traditionally depicted with demonic features such as long ears, unhealthy skin colour and sharp fangs. All of these apply to Ganondorf in all three games.

#55 LionHarted

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 03:24 PM

Then, what is this?


Not close enough, that's what.

Although I was looking at the actual character, not the figurine...

And, as far as I know, the only ones who don't have them in the in-game sprites are the ones who don't in the Outset official art.

Edited by LionHarted, 30 March 2008 - 03:49 PM.


#56 Impossible

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 08:09 PM

I think they simply assume that the audience will trust what the game TELLS THEM.


...Not if one member of that audience claimed that TP Link was the Hero of Time. Remember who we're talking to here.

Even if his point (the long ears trait didn't really decline even when the Hylian race did) is true, there's still a difference between obvious, exaggerated, outward-pointing Hylian ears, and just normal elvish-looking ears. The former implies strong Hylian ancestry, and the latter just implies being a distant descendant. Only the characters who we KNOW are Hylian have the former in TWW. In TP, OoT and TMC, basically everyone in Hyrule does.

And since nothing in TMC suggests the possibility of the bloodline being weakened at any point (it's as consistent as OoT), there's nothing more that can be proven. The ears are basically irrelevant.

#57 Showsni

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 02:03 PM

Maybe Quill overheard the Helmaroc King's orders or something... From just two kidnapped girls, it would be impossible for him to deduce with any certainty that the ears were the common factor, however rare they are. Unless there are also more kidnapped girls we don't see!

Posted Image
Look rounded.


#58 Raien

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 02:47 PM

Maybe Quill overheard the Helmaroc King's orders or something... From just two kidnapped girls, it would be impossible for him to deduce with any certainty that the ears were the common factor, however rare they are. Unless there are also more kidnapped girls we don't see!


If those two girls were the only girls on the island to have long ears, that would be the main distinguishing factor from the other girls.

Posted Image
Look rounded.


Yes. I don't understand Lex's point.

#59 Jumbie

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 04:47 PM

Then, what is this?


Not close enough, that's what.

Although I was looking at the actual character, not the figurine...

It is close enough, her ears are clearly rounded. However: it's only the figurine, as you say. On the real person, her ears look pointed:
Posted Image

Maybe Quill overheard the Helmaroc King's orders or something... From just two kidnapped girls, it would be impossible for him to deduce with any certainty that the ears were the common factor, however rare they are. Unless there are also more kidnapped girls we don't see!

Finally another voice who's with us!^^

It's probably a plot hole. I'm sure Nintendo didn't expect anyone to overthink it.

That's what I think.

Posted Image
Look rounded.

But that's from the beta version... They probably changed her ears to pointed in the final game.

If those two girls were the only girls on the island to have long ears, that would be the main distinguishing factor from the other girls.

On which island? Quill speaks about girls being captued in countless places.

#60 LionHarted

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 04:59 PM

On the real person, her ears look pointed


As pointed as everyone else's, anyway (to those who will nitpick).

Edited by LionHarted, 31 March 2008 - 05:00 PM.





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