164 replies to this topic

[Raien]

Yes, but what the hell has that got to do with Christianity?

God made both Jesus and Satan, yet he only favoured Jesus in the battle between good and evil. In fact, God made Jesus to draw people away from evil. Likewise, the gods may have made both Light and Darkness, yet we only have evidence from previous games that they favour Light. The Hero was chosen by them to fight evil.

Examples? Fine, if you really need them, but I recommend you do some actual research yourself. Greek mythology is filled with examples of the gods creating and favouring people as chosen heroes, and controlling their fates, almost in an identical manner to Link's role in Zelda. While there are many gods in Hindu, the main gods make up a trinity, but the trinity of the gods is much closer to the trinity in Zelda than the trinity in Christianity, which is vague and undefined. In Hindu, there is the creator, the destroyer, and the maintainer. The way the gods have their own talent and own 'job' is clearly paralleled by the gods in Zelda.

If by paralleling the Hindu gods, you mean that the Zelda goddesses each play a different role in Hyrule's creation, then that is a valid connection (although somewhat loose, IMO). Likewise, the connection with Greek mythology is very strong (and in my opinion, the Zelda goddesses use destiny to guide the Hero and Princess). Yet I don't see how this denounces the Christian concepts of absolute good and evil. All mythologies appear to have valid influences on the Zelda series, they need not conflict with each other.

What clues are there that he was empowered by a vague word?

Their hatred bled across the void and awakened me. I drew deep of it and grew strong again.

Yes, if you like to blatantly misread things.

We know that the desert holds both the mirror and the malice, but there is no direct evidence that they are held separately. For all the text tells us, the malice being in the desert comes as a consequence of the mirror being in the desert. As examples of this:

"My friend brought home the magazine and the free gift."
"George Bush won the people's hearts and the votes."

Since Auru then completely focuses his legend on the Mirror, this suggests that the Mirror is the key to the legend, not the desert.

Big whoop, people think it's 'cursed', who cares? We know that already. Nothing to do with the malice of doomed inmates.

Then considering that the Twilight Mirror has had no contact since the Twili's ancestors were sealed inside (after all, it was guarded by the Sages), please explain exactly how the Mirror came to possess evil power.

Since when?

Since Midna tells us so.

The evil within the shards is more powerful than you can imagine... It might be something we'll ultimately have to destroy.

Edited by jhurvid, 31 January 2007 - 09:47 AM.

[Mgoblue201]

My point wasn't that we can't trust the text, obviously. It's that it's too easy to interpret it the way you want. Visual cues can be reinterpreted too, but what we see is a lot more solid than what we read.

Of course it's an accursed mirror. The entire place is accursed. That doesn't mean what you want it to mean. They clearly made a distinction. It said the inmates held the malice. The mirror itself is cursed because it has been used on so many evil men. That's why they keep saying that the prison is condemned, that the malice of the inmates still haunts the place.

1) Please show me where we see an empowerment during the cutscene where Ganondorf meets Zant.

It's an inference. He approached Zant the moment Zant was in the thralls of hatred. Don't act like you have irreposable truth. Ganon may have been empowered in the Arbiter's Grounds cutscene, but you have the opposite problem. You cannot prove that it was directly because of the mirror or the Twili or whatever.

2) Please explain to me why Ganondorf's form is not with power when we see it destroy the Fused Shadows.

I think I know what you're saying here, but it's silly to equate a depowerment with the ball of flames. It's simply a form.

3) Please explain to me why Ganondorf would need to be empowered twice in a row.

I explained this multiple times. Ganon was asleep in a sense after he was thrown into the Twilight Realm. Thus why the hatred "bled across the void" and "awakened" him.

1) Ganondorf needed Zant to return to the Light World (as stated by Midna). It was Zant that merged the Light World and Twilight Realm to make darkness there. No evidence of an empowerment. No evidence = speculation.

If Zant could do this, then why would he need Ganon? Of course Ganon needed him to return to the Light World. But that doesn't make any sense if Ganon was fully empowered. There is absolutely no power that Zant has that would be of use to Ganon. Does Ganon and Zant's combined power somehow equal to something special? Now that's speciulation.

2) Ganondorf approaches Zant with the words used by the Triforce in ALTTP's manual. If the Triforce represents absolute power to Ganondorf, then Ganondorf ("Zant's god") represents absolute power to Zant. If Ganondorf was weak, as you suggest, then Zant would be under no illusion of power and there would be no point in those words.

I didn't say he was weak. I said he was weaker than normal. That's still more powerful than Zant. He simply used Zant to cause pain and suffering. Again, if he was simply at full power, he would have no need of Zant. Zant needed Ganon's power to merge light and shadow. If Zant could have done that on his own, he would have. If Ganon could have done that on his own, he would have. What changed then? If a full strength Ganon simply housed his power in Zant, then he's the same old Ganon. Nothing's changed. Thus it would not make sense for Ganon to use Zant unless he actually needed him to escape the Twilight Realm.

3) We have no evidence that Ganondorf was in the Twilight Realm for more than a few years. Hence, the TP Sages (not the OoT Sages) were the ones who tried to kill him. Ganondorf was sealed in the Sacred Realm after all.

Okay, your original point was that the Twili's malice bled across the void. This would be impossible if it happened later. Now you're saying that the mirror was cursed, I think, and that awakened Ganon, and you're claiming this based on the phrase "cursed mirror". It's a rather flimsy pretext and doesn't make much sense within the game. That's what I'm saying about language. This is just reinterpreting it how you want it to go. I could've bought the Twili's malice bleeding over. This mirror thing is becoming too much though. And now you're proposing a theory that wasn't even in the game. Ganon was not trapped in the Sacred Realm. Stick to stuff that's in the game.

A final point. People often talk about an answer to prayer. They say that God helped them in their moment of need. Ever wonder why Zant would abandon himself to some ball of flames? Because his anguish and cries were answered at the exact moment of need. That would make sense if we take what we know, that hatred awoke Ganon.

Your last point is irrelevant. It still doesn't answer where chaos and darkness came from. And you're still not accounting for how readily evil is able to triumph sometimes.

EDIT: Wait, God made Jesus? Jesus is God. He's part of the trinity.

Edited by Mgoblue201, 31 January 2007 - 04:05 AM.

[Fyxe]

God made both Jesus and Satan, yet he only favoured Jesus in the battle between good and evil. In fact, God made Jesus to draw people away from evil. Likewise, the gods may have made both Light and Darkness, yet we only have evidence from previous games that they favour Light. The Hero was chosen by them to fight evil.

Jesus was not a hero, or a warrior, he was a savior, and he was 'God' himself, apparently. Link is not part of the goddesses.

The three goddesses in Zelda were all creators (Din made the red earth, Farore brought the spirit of law to the world, Nayru made everything that lives), so the creator/maintainer/destroyer concept doesn't work. I certainly haven't seen any evidence for it within the games themselves.

Yeah, like there's evidence for Christian references. There's not. The goddesses are certainly far closer to the Hindu trinity and were probably inspired by it, the Christian trinity is entirely different.

VISUAL CLUES, JUST LIKE YOU WERE ASKING FOR. You asked for visual clues for Ganondorf getting his power from Zant, so I turned it around. There's NO visual clues that malice empowered Ganondorf, and the dialogue is merely using it as a metaphor.

There's a whole cutscene where we *see* Ganondorf using Zant to revive himself.

Are you always this ****ing arrogant to everyone who wants to have a intelligent debate? The second item can be read as separate from the first item, or as a consequence of the first item. For example:

Yes, it could, but that would be a MISREADING.

Then considering that the Twilight Mirror has had no contact since the Twili's ancestors were sealed inside (after all, it was guarded by the Sages), please explain exactly how the Mirror came to possess evil power.

Within the mirror, there's the decendants of the dark tribe, the Fused Shadows, and Ganondorf and his dark magic. So it's no surprise that people say it holds an evil power.

Also, the references to it being cursed and holding a dark power tie it in with the Dark Mirror from FSA.

[Raien]

To mgoblue and Fyxe, I've made a lot of edits to my last post that I had meant to make earlier but was prevented by ZeldaLegends crashing on me. Please note that I have elaborated upon certain points that were not obvious before.

In response to Fyxe,

1) I am only misreading the text if I am taking it out of context. If you can't prove that I'm taking it out of context, then I can accuse you of misreading the text. In fact, I am.

2) Whether or not the Christian trilogy is relevant to Zelda, the Christian metaphors of absolute good and evil are relevant. If the Zelda mythology is a cooking pot of concepts from different religions, I fail to see how the only concept with a physical presence in the games can be disregarded.

3) The shards of the Twilight Mirror did not hold passage to the Twilight Realm since that was only fulfilled when it was complete. Therefore, the evil power must be held within the Mirror itself, not it's passage to the Twilight Realm.


In response to mgoblue,

1) The point I was trying to make is that you can't solely rely upon visuals and ignore text because both work together to make the story. Without being told Zant was in malice, we would not have made the inferred connection with Ganondorf's empowerment.

2) Ganondorf housed his magic in Zant, not himself. Ganondorf's magic is the Darkness that he used to curse Link at Lanyru's Spring.

3) Ganondorf needed Zant to break into the Light World. This is stated by Midna. It is obvious that there is a power within the Twili that Ganondorf does not have access to, which Zant became able to use because he was empowered by Ganondorf's magic. That is all we are told about Ganondorf having need of Zant.

4) Zant found Ganondorf as his god because Ganondorf possessed absolute power (the ToP) to grant Zant's wishes. If Ganondorf was weak, Zant would not be under the illusion that Ganondorf was a god.

Edited by jhurvid, 31 January 2007 - 10:10 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

No proof of Zant being empowered by Ganondorf?

"This is the power given to me by my god!"

[Fyxe]

1) I am only misreading the text if I am taking it out of context. If you can't prove that I'm taking it out of context, then I can accuse you of misreading the text. In fact, I am.

Oh ho? And how exactly am *I* misreading the text? You're the one taking the malice of doomed inmates totally out of context.

2) Whether or not the Christian trilogy is relevant to Zelda, the Christian metaphors of absolute good and evil are relevant.

Those metaphors are NOT INHERANT TO CHRISTIANITY ALONE. The concept has existed for far longer than Christianity.

If the Zelda mythology is a cooking pot of concepts from different religions, I fail to see how the only concept with a physical presence in the games can be disregarded.

What on Earth are you babbling about? The concept of light and dark, good and evil is in millions upon millions of stories, especially fantasy stories.

3) The shards of the Twilight Mirror did not hold passage to the Twilight Realm since that was only fulfilled when it was complete. Therefore, the evil power must be held within the Mirror itself, not it's passage to the Twilight Realm.

Who shattered the mirror? Zant, empowered by Ganon. It's no surprise that the shards are cursed.

[Raien]

Oh ho? And how exactly am *I* misreading the text? You're the one taking the malice of doomed inmates totally out of context.

No, you're taking it out of context.

Those metaphors are NOT INHERANT TO CHRISTIANITY ALONE. The concept has existed for far longer than Christianity.

What on Earth are you babbling about? The concept of light and dark, good and evil is in millions upon millions of stories, especially fantasy stories.

Yet you've provided religious influences where there are no "absolutes" of good and evil. Christianity at least, possesses the concepts that can be compared with The Legend of Zelda.

Who shattered the mirror? Zant, empowered by Ganon. It's no surprise that the shards are cursed.

Zant broke the mirror with Ganondorf's magic, but there is no inference that he cursed it as well. I certainly did not make that connection, and neither does Midna. There is no inference that the mirror was an object without evil before Zant broke it.

Edited by jhurvid, 31 January 2007 - 08:18 PM.

[Fyxe]

No, you're taking it out of context.

...What are you, eight?

So tired of arguing with you. You're free to ramble about your imaginary malice theories all you like. I'm going to go actually play the damn games.

[Raien]

...What are you, eight?

So tired of arguing with you. You're free to ramble about your imaginary malice theories all you like. I'm going to go actually play the damn games.

How did you expect me to reply? You've just stated your opinion without any form of justification, when I at least compromised that the quote could be interpreted in two different but perfectly valid ways.

The fact is, you are being arrogant. I've provided quote after quote, connection after connection. You've produced nothing but derogoratory statements and claims that are never supported, such as seeing Ganondorf empowered through Zant. To claim that I'm imagining things, when I am the one supporting my argument, is simply hypocritical.

PS: I forgot to add a quote from Midna that suggests that Zant is not to blame for the evil power contained within the Twilight Mirror. That's one more piece of evidence that I can provide (unlike some people).

To think the Mirror of Twilight has the power to change people like that? This world... ALL worlds... can be cruel...

Edited by jhurvid, 01 February 2007 - 07:43 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

2) Whether or not the Christian trilogy is relevant to Zelda, the Christian metaphors of absolute good and evil are relevant. If the Zelda mythology is a cooking pot of concepts from different religions, I fail to see how the only concept with a physical presence in the games can be disregarded.

Actually the metaphors of absolute good and evil are more Zorastrianist than anything.

As for this whole thing about the Twilight Mirror being evil/cursed, maybe it was made so by the Goddesses so that people didn't mess with the Mirror unless they REALLY had to.

[Fyxe]

but perfectly valid ways.

There's the flaw in your logic. One way is not valid. It's quite clear what the the quote is referring to.

The fact is, you are being arrogant.

That's because I'm right.

I've provided quote after quote,

Well done, you have a vast supply of out-of-context quotes, I have my crisp memory of the game as a whole.

connection after connection.

Yes, you said the word 'malice' a lot, I'm not sure that counts as a 'connection', but you said it a lot.

You've produced nothing but derogoratory statements and claims that are never supported,

No. I haven't.

such as seeing Ganondorf empowered through Zant.

What's all this about 'empowerment'? You're the one who uses the bloody word constantly. Why does Ganon need to be empowered anyway? Isn't he suitably empowered, what with him having the Triforce of Power? Ganondorf uses Zant and the Twili, Midna and Ganondorf himself clearly state this. End of discussion.

To claim that I'm imagining things, when I am the one supporting my argument, is simply hypocritical.

You're imagining some strange emotion-based empowerment due to vague out of context quotes. I played the game for 60 hours and I find it insulting to be told by you that there's this whole part of the story that we all missed.

[Raien]

There's the flaw in your logic. One way is not valid. It's quite clear what the the quote is referring to.

Once again, your opinion.

That's because I'm right.

Your opinion, but this time with extra arrogance.

Well done, you have a vast supply of out-of-context quotes, I have my crisp memory of the game as a whole.

It's funny, because you tell me that my quotes are all out-of-context, yet you are never able to justify why they are out of context. Using other people's arguments, I can at least find reasons to justify and modify my explanations in the correct context, but you have simply been repeating the same message over and over that I am taking quotes out of context without developing upon your reasoning. Please do so.

Yes, you said the word 'malice' a lot, I'm not sure that counts as a 'connection', but you said it a lot.

Considering that "malice" is defined as a physical entity in this game, why do you refuse to acknowledge it? Even Auru said that the malice of the Arbiter's Grounds is related to the evil plaguing Hyrule.

What's all this about 'empowerment'? You're the one who uses the bloody word constantly. Why does Ganon need to be empowered anyway? Isn't he suitably empowered, what with him having the Triforce of Power? Ganondorf uses Zant and the Twili, Midna and Ganondorf himself clearly state this. End of discussion.

Ganondorf tells us that he was empowered by the malice of the Twili's ancestors. If you argue that this is not the scene where Ganondorf was executed, then you have to argue a second empowerment. This argument is that Zant empowered Ganondorf, yet we see no evidence of it in the cutscene; in fact we see the complete opposite. The evidence I have found is that there was only one empowerment, and that empowerment took place in the execution scene. In fact, Ganondorf says that the malice "awakened him", which we visually see in the execution cutscene.

You're imagining some strange emotion-based empowerment due to vague out of context quotes. I played the game for 60 hours and I find it insulting to be told by you that there's this whole part of the story that we all missed.

How can I be imagining emotion-based empowerment when GANONDORF STATES HE WAS EMPOWERED BY MALICE!!?

If you feel insulted to be told that you didn't regard certain key evidence or connect important pieces of evidence together, then you cannot blame me for that.

Your explanation is inconsistent with the text and visuals.
My explanation is consistent with the text and visuals.

If you expect us to just be happy with being inconsistent, then why don't we all argue that Ganondorf turned into a cake in TP's ending? It doesn't matter if it's inconsistent with the visuals; IT'S OBVIOUS! I KNOW IT FROM MEMORY!

Edited by jhurvid, 02 February 2007 - 08:35 AM.

[Fyxe]

If you weren't so obsessive and insulting, I might actually bother to argue with you properly, but to be honest, I cannot see the point. You've deluded yourself into believing that 'malice' is some Star Wars style force based on one or two quotes that were clearly, CLEARLY metaphorical. I cannot be damned to write a whole bloody essay to prove this to you, because I don't think such a simple concept needs such effort.

I will leave this with a few statements.

I did justify why some of your earlier quotes were out of context, as have other people. I don't particularly want to repeat myself. You should know what 'out of context' means by now.

Malice is not defined as a physical entity. Try not to take everything so literally. It's really quite odd.

You seem to think that some 'malice' force empowers the Triforce of Power which then empowers Ganondorf. What on EARTH. I can't even begin to wonder why you would even come up with such an idea.

Please, please just go and look up what a 'metaphor' is, and maybe read a few books and things and realise how often metaphors are used in dialogue, literature and other video games. The 'malice' of the Twili's ancestors clearly lives on in Zant. Not somehow passing through a void into the hand of Ganondorf and 'activating' the Triforce of Power, or whatever you're suggesting.

Finally, please, dear the goddess, please get down off your high horse.

Edited by Fyxe, 02 February 2007 - 08:58 AM.

[Raien]

If you weren't so obsessive and insulting, I might actually bother to argue with you properly, but to be honest, I cannot see the point. You've deluded yourself into believing that 'malice' is some Star Wars style force based on one or two quotes that were clearly, CLEARLY metaphorical. I cannot be damned to write a whole bloody essay to prove this to you, because I don't think such a simple concept needs such effort.

I did justify why some of your earlier quotes were out of context, as have other people. I don't particularly want to repeat myself. You should know what 'out of context' means by now.

Malice is not defined as a physical entity. Try not to take everything so literally. It's really quite odd.

Malice, in its original context, is a simple emotion, a metaphor that is referred to as a personal possession. However, you fail to recognise that "malice" is used within a different context in TP.

If malice is an indiscriminate emotion, then it cannot belong to people, such as Ganondorf or the Twili's ancestors. Yet the malice that Ganondorf draws deep is described specifically as a possession of the Twili's ancestors. This quote transforms the context from metaphorical to physical.

For example, if I say "This bubble contains happiness and if you put it in your mouth, the happiness enters your body.", then the term "happiness" becomes physical because it is not YOUR happiness that you come to feel, but the happiness within the bubble.

Therefore, you are wrong that I am taking the quotes out of context. I am recognising that the context has changed and applying my explanation to that context.

You seem to think that some 'malice' force empowers the Triforce of Power which then empowers Ganondorf. What on EARTH. I can't even begin to wonder why you would even come up with such an idea.

The Triforce of Power is never empowered; it is in itself a source of power. Yet if there is nothing to empower, it cannot do anything. Malice provided Ganondorf with evil magic for the ToP to empower, which is what it did.

Finally, please, dear the goddess, please get down off your high horse.

This comes from the person who said "I have a crisp memory. I am always right." You claim that you feel insulted without taking into consideration how others feel.

Edited by jhurvid, 03 February 2007 - 09:50 AM.

[Mgoblue201]

"Obvious" that Zant had a special power? How do you reason that? Like you said, Midna told us that Ganon needed Zant to break out of the Twilight Realm. The only reason to reach your conclusion is that if we assume the end result and use that conclusion as a bridge, which of course we cannot. So let's use what we know. We know that the Twili had some power. However, the power of the ancient Twili, the Fused Shadows, is even more powerful. Zant didn't have a chance compared to it. But Ganon's power is even more powerful than that. There is nothing in the game to even suggest that Zant had any power to break out of the Twilight Realm. We only know that he's much less powerful than Ganon. He couldn't even destroy the mirror even though Midna could. So how do we assume that Zant had any power that Ganon could use? On the other hand, Midna tells us that none could return to the world of light and that they were doomed to stay there forever.

The ToP does not give absolute power. That's about as far from the truth as you can get (the entire Triforce is much more powerful, and I don't even think that gives absolute power), and Ganon was probably deluded when he said that. But you said it yourself. Zant followed him because Ganon could make his dreams come true. As long as Ganon was powerful enough to do that, then Zant would follow him. Your mistake is assuming that a weakened Ganon could not do that. Perhaps I'm making an assumption too. But we do know that Ganon approached Zant in his thralls of hatred. He housed his power in Zant. He then caused suffering amonst the Twili (as said by Midna). He then turned to Hyrule in order to cover it in darkness. We then have a separate ocassion where Ganon said that hatred bled across the void and awakened him. He drew deep in it, using anguish as nourishment, to become strong again. The problem is, you're failing to link anything specific in that scene to what you're claiming. There is nothing to indicate that Ganon was empowered by anything. No, there's nothing in my scene either, but at least I know that there was anger from Zant. You have not accounted for any outside hate or malice or whatever specifically in that scene. You're simply taking quotes that might or might not refer to Ganon's empowerment and using them to prove that something happened. But you only have a receiver of this malice. We do not see any potential giver. The sages do not point toward this either. In my scene, however, I have both a giver and a receiver (beyond sexual metaphors). No, the evidence isn't perfect toward any theory, which probably means that either the translation wasn't perfect or that the original dialogue writer didn't get the meaning across that great. But from what we see, Ganon being empowered by Zant and the Twili seems to fit better.

[Duke Serkol]

I think Zant's special power was being incredibly emo

[Raien]

"Obvious" that Zant had a special power? How do you reason that? Like you said, Midna told us that Ganon needed Zant to break out of the Twilight Realm. The only reason to reach your conclusion is that if we assume the end result and use that conclusion as a bridge, which of course we cannot. So let's use what we know. We know that the Twili had some power. However, the power of the ancient Twili, the Fused Shadows, is even more powerful. Zant didn't have a chance compared to it. But Ganon's power is even more powerful than that. There is nothing in the game to even suggest that Zant had any power to break out of the Twilight Realm. We only know that he's much less powerful than Ganon. He couldn't even destroy the mirror even though Midna could. So how do we assume that Zant had any power that Ganon could use? On the other hand, Midna tells us that none could return to the world of light and that they were doomed to stay there forever.

Ganondorf had magnificent power, but he could not use that power to return to the Light World, which is why he needed Zant (stated by Midna). Therefore, Zant must possess some ability that he could only use once he had gained Ganondorf's magic. Most likely it is a general Twili ability, since it is unlikely Zant would possess any power unique to himself.

Power is useless if it is completely unable to perform a function. Weaker power, in such an instance, becomes more effective.

The ToP does not give absolute power. That's about as far from the truth as you can get (the entire Triforce is much more powerful, and I don't even think that gives absolute power), and Ganon was probably deluded when he said that. But you said it yourself. Zant followed him because Ganon could make his dreams come true. As long as Ganon was powerful enough to do that, then Zant would follow him. Your mistake is assuming that a weakened Ganon could not do that. Perhaps I'm making an assumption too. But we do know that Ganon approached Zant in his thralls of hatred. He housed his power in Zant. He then caused suffering amonst the Twili (as said by Midna). He then turned to Hyrule in order to cover it in darkness. We then have a separate ocassion where Ganon said that hatred bled across the void and awakened him. He drew deep in it, using anguish as nourishment, to become strong again. The problem is, you're failing to link anything specific in that scene to what you're claiming. There is nothing to indicate that Ganon was empowered by anything. No, there's nothing in my scene either, but at least I know that there was anger from Zant. You have not accounted for any outside hate or malice or whatever specifically in that scene. You're simply taking quotes that might or might not refer to Ganon's empowerment and using them to prove that something happened. But you only have a receiver of this malice. We do not see any potential giver. The sages do not point toward this either. In my scene, however, I have both a giver and a receiver (beyond sexual metaphors). No, the evidence isn't perfect toward any theory, which probably means that either the translation wasn't perfect or that the original dialogue writer didn't get the meaning across that great. But from what we see, Ganon being empowered by Zant and the Twili seems to fit better.

I understand that the Triforce of Power is not absolute power; it is just the term I use to describe that it is the most powerful object in comparison to others in the game, just as Ganondorf is absolute Darkness.

Ganondorf was in a weakened state during the execution scene. Hence, the Sages captured him. He then becomes powerful enough to break his chains and kill one of the Sages. This is an empowerment. Another point to add is that Ganondorf said the malice "awakened him". During the execution scene, we see Ganondorf in a state of sleep and visually awakening when the Triforce of Power resonated.

Anyway, I've finished an article which outlines and elaborates my entire argument beyond what we have already discussed. It just needs a quote and a couple of edits and I'll see if I can get it put up as a storyline article. Arturo is also reading it, so he should be able to see what needs changing. From what he last told me, he said it was good.

Edited by jhurvid, 03 February 2007 - 11:07 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

Power is useless if it is completely unable to perform a function. Weaker power, in such an instance, becomes more effective.
I understand that the Triforce of Power is not absolute power; it is just the term I use to describe that it is the most powerful object in comparison to others in the game, just as Ganondorf is absolute Darkness.

Adult Zelda (OoT) mentioned that the Triforce of Power cannot be used properly by those with evil hearts - explaining why Ganondorf lost control, and in a fit of rage, became Ganon. Although Ganondorf himself is evil he isn't absolute darkness and I can't imagine why you insist on saying so as an interview with Shigeru Miyamoto explained his character represents the greed of men in the Zelda series. Evil yes, but not pure-evil for such a being has yet to be introduced by Nintendo.

Ganondorf was in a weakened state during the execution scene. Hence, the Sages captured him. He then becomes powerful enough to break his chains and kill one of the Sages. This is an empowerment. Another point to add is that Ganondorf said the malice "awakened him". During the execution scene, we see Ganondorf in a state of sleep and visually awakening when the Triforce of Power resonated.

The whole 'divine prank' thing slipped right past you didn't it? Watch the cutscene again, Ganondorf was on the verge of death therefore without the Triforce of Power/Gods intervention he would have simply died, what impaled him was no normal blade and left a permanent wound.

[Raien]

Adult Zelda (OoT) mentioned that the Triforce of Power cannot be used properly by those with evil hearts - explaining why Ganondorf lost control, and in a fit of rage, became Ganon. Although Ganondorf himself is evil he isn't absolute darkness and I can't imagine why you insist on saying so as an interview with Shigeru Miyamoto explained his character represents the greed of men in the Zelda series. Evil yes, but not pure-evil for such a being has yet to be introduced by Nintendo.

Ganondorf is absolute evil because he doesn't just possess the negative emotions that others feel (such as hatred, despair, sorrow, etc), he actually embodies those emotions and grows strong from them, hence the malice of the Twili's ancestors and the despair of the Hyrulians in Oracles. If a character ultimately seeks the destruction of the world and grows ever more powerful from that destruction, then this more than implies that Ganondorf is the ultimate evil in Hyrule.

The whole 'divine prank' thing slipped right past you didn't it? Watch the cutscene again, Ganondorf was on the verge of death therefore without the Triforce of Power/Gods intervention he would have simply died, what impaled him was no normal blade and left a permanent wound.

What actually intervened in Ganondorf's death was not necessarily the Triforce of Power. The Sages blamed themselves for Ganondorf's escape, not the goddesses, because they believed that the scene could have been avoided had they not attempted to execute Ganondorf in the first place. If they could not forsee that the goddesses would give Ganondorf the Triforce of Power, then they would not have any reason to blame themselves.

The Sages referred to the Triforce of Power because it was the only thing that they could establish as giving Ganondorf the power he had to prevent his own execution. They say that it was a source of Ganondorf's power, not the source of Ganondorf's empowerment. Considering that Ganondorf refers to his own empowerment, and an "awakening" which visually connects to the execution scene, I am comfortable with the idea that the malice empowered Ganondorf by giving him evil magic, and the Triforce then empowered that evil magic.

Edited by jhurvid, 04 February 2007 - 02:35 PM.

[FDL]

Ganondorf already had evil magic. It was his defining feature, in both OoT and the Sages speech about him. Still, I think he got the Triforce before the Arbiter's Grounds.

[Raien]

Ganondorf already had evil magic. It was his defining feature, in both OoT and the Sages speech about him. Still, I think he got the Triforce before the Arbiter's Grounds.

Exactly. The object of Ganondorf's power is his evil magic, not the Triforce of Power. If Ganondorf lost most of his evil magic (perhaps from the battle in OoT), then the Triforce of Power would have nothing to empower. Then Ganondorf is granted more evil magic thanks to the tribe's malice, which the ToP then empowers and resonates.

At least, that is my theory.

[FDL]

I'm not entirely sure I agree with you about the malice but I also disagree with the idea that he got the Triforce of Power at the Arbiter's Grounds.

[spunky-monkey]

Ganondorf is absolute evil because he doesn't just possess the negative emotions that others feel (such as hatred, despair, sorrow, etc), he actually embodies those emotions and grows strong from them, hence the malice of the Twili's ancestors and the despair of the Hyrulians in Oracles. If a character ultimately seeks the destruction of the world and grows ever more powerful from that destruction, then this more than implies that Ganondorf is the ultimate evil in Hyrule.

For the record the two Oracle games were made by Capcom, so while indeed they are considered canonical many of us do not take a literal-minded approach when discussing their storylines. Now it's possible Ganon's revived spirit has become more twisted over time it still does not make him the very embodiment of evil for he was created, whereas good and evil have always existed independently. Majora's Mask has hinted there could be an evil deity/spirit but hasn't confirmed who (or what) is responsible.

What actually intervened in Ganondorf's death was not necessarily the Triforce of Power. The Sages blamed themselves for Ganondorf's escape, not the goddesses, because they believed that the scene could have been avoided had they not attempted to execute Ganondorf in the first place. If they could not forsee that the goddesses would give Ganondorf the Triforce of Power, then they would not have any reason to blame themselves.

That's the second Mirror Chamber cutscene; the gods chose Ganondorf to be a 'bearer of power' yet the Sages themselves are servants of said gods, so the outcome is inconsequential. It would be folly for them to question or turn on their own omnipotent masters. Therefore Midna isn't angry with them at all - she understands they had no choice but to banish Ganondorf to her home.

The Sages referred to the Triforce of Power because it was the only thing that they could establish as giving Ganondorf the power he had to prevent his own execution. They say that it was a source of Ganondorf's power, not the source of Ganondorf's empowerment.

Empowerment? Ganondorf is from the world of light so when he was exiled to the Twilight Realm he lost his physical form and thus was unable to return to Hyrule without Zant's help.

Edited by Ricky, 04 February 2007 - 07:02 PM.

[Raien]

For the record the two Oracle games were made by Capcom, so while indeed they are considered canonical many of us do not take a literal-minded approach when discussing their storylines. Now it's possible Ganon's revived spirit has become more twisted over time it still does not make him the very embodiment of evil for he was created, whereas good and evil have always existed independently. Majora's Mask has hinted there could be an evil deity/spirit but hasn't confirmed who (or what) is responsible.

Although subsequent characters such as Majora and Vaati were undoubtedly evil, we have no evidence that they gained strength from evil itself. This is where Ganondorf/Ganon is unique; he not only wields Darkness, he is empowered by Darkness.

That's the second Mirror Chamber cutscene; the gods chose Ganondorf to be a 'bearer of power' yet the Sages themselves are servants of said gods, so the outcome is inconsequential. It would be folly for them to question or turn on their own omnipotent masters. Therefore Midna isn't angry with them at all - she understands they had no choice but to banish Ganondorf to her home.

Hmmm... I can see where you're coming from. You are arguing that the Sages are simply referencing their actions in sealing Ganondorf within the Twilight Realm, not their attempt to execute Ganondorf. In other words, you are arguing they tried to destroy Ganondorf's evil magic by sealing him within the Twilight Realm.

I will admit, this is the most sensible argument I've heard so far. However, it does not explain the inconsistencies provided by Ganondorf's statement in Hyrule Castle. Ganondorf was "awakened" during his empowerment in the execution scene and he said himself that he was "awakened" by the malice of the Twili's ancestors. And then of course, Twili's ancestors =/= Zant.

Empowerment? Ganondorf is from the world of light so when he was exiled to the Twilight Realm he lost his physical form and thus was unable to return to Hyrule without Zant's help.

Link did not lose his physical form when he entered the Twilight Realm. In fact, the Twili themselves did not lose their physical form when they entered the Twilight Realm. The situation at the beginning of the game is misleading; the Twilight that Zant had covered Hyrule with had transformed Hyrule into a Dark World. It was in the presence of Darkness that the Hylians transformed into spirits and Link transformed into a wolf (just like when he absorbed the Shadow Crystal; an embodiment of Darkness).

Likewise, the disembodied form does not show weakness. That same form destroyed the Fused Shadows in TP's ending and subsequently showed Ganondorf as a human.

Edited by jhurvid, 04 February 2007 - 08:09 PM.

[FDL]

Although subsequent characters such as Majora and Vaati were undoubtedly evil, we have no evidence that they gained strength from evil itself. This is where Ganondorf/Ganon is unique; he not only wields Darkness, he is empowered by Darkness.

I actually agree that he is empowered by darkness. That's the most likely reason for why he felt he needed to break the Sages seal in ALttP and let the evil flow from the SR once more.

[Raien]

I actually agree that he is empowered by darkness. That's the most likely reason for why he felt he needed to break the Sages seal in ALttP and let the evil flow from the SR once more.

Exactly. I don't understand why some people feel that the concepts of "Ganondorf being an evil man who wants power" and "Ganondorf being an embodiment of Darkness who wants to cover Hyrule in Darkness" are in conflict. They are part of the same overall character of Ganondorf. Ganondorf IS Darkness, therefore what he wants and what Darkness wants are in mutual agreement.

[FDL]

Well, I don't believe he began as the embodiment of darkness, I think that he became it. He wasn't born like that, he just ended up that way.

[BourgeoisJerry]

Ganondorf was "awakened" during his empowerment in the execution scene and he said himself that he was "awakened" by the malice of the Twili's ancestors. And then of course, Twili's ancestors =/= Zant.

Well, I've stopped messing with that strict canon thing, so I guess I'm gonna start with here again since you're claiming something we've already determined isn't necessarily true.

Your people have long amused me, Midna. To defy the gods with such petty magic,
only to be cast aside... How very pathetic.
Pathetic as they were, though, they served me well. Their anguish was my
nourishment.
Their hatred bled across the void and awakened me. I drew deep in it and grew
strong again.
Your people had some skill, to be sure...but they lacked true power.
The kind of absolute power that those chosen by the gods wield.
He who wields such power would make a suitable king for this world, don't you
think?

As I've said before, the quote could conceivably be referring specifically to the ancestors that were originally sent through the mirror, but it can also be interpreted to be referring to the Twili as a whole. As for the debate in general, I may have thought of another argument for Ganondorf's empowerment/awakening happening after being banished to the Twilight Realm, but I couldn't find any good screenshots or videos to compare the past and present Arbiter's Grounds. Considering Zant's appearance hasn't changed since he met Ganondorf, I think it's safe to say Ganondorf wasn't in the Twilight Realm very long if the empowerment and awakening happened before he was even banished. The only excuses for him being in the Twilight Realm for more than a short while are if it took years and years for Ganondorf to finally break out of the Twilight Realm and Twili age slower than Humans, or if Ganondorf had to wait years and years for somebody like Zant to finally show up. Of course, there's no argument here if the Arbiter's Grounds haven't decayed since Ganondorf's banishment.

[BourgeoisJerry]

Don't you hate when it lags really bad and you end up making the same post twice?

Edited by BourgeoisJerry, 05 February 2007 - 02:03 AM.

[spunky-monkey]

Although subsequent characters such as Majora and Vaati were undoubtedly evil, we have no evidence that they gained strength from evil itself. This is where Ganondorf/Ganon is unique; he not only wields Darkness, he is empowered by Darkness.

Except 'darkness' is only becoming the most overused word in Zelda, the Japanese creators have their own beliefs and are probably applying different meanings to describe conflict between good & evil as a whole. Ganondorf is just a man who seeks power; Vaati wanted to become a god whereas the evil within Majora's Mask sought to destroy an entire planet.

Hmmm... I can see where you're coming from. You are arguing that the Sages are simply referencing their actions in sealing Ganondorf within the Twilight Realm, not their attempt to execute Ganondorf. In other words, you are arguing they tried to destroy Ganondorf's evil magic by sealing him within the Twilight Realm.

Actually I was making the point that circumstances were beyond the Sages' control and while they accepted blame for everything going wrong in the Twilight Realm it wasn't really their fault when Ganondorf got the ToP.

Link did not lose his physical form when he entered the Twilight Realm.

Well of course not, Link's Triforce of Courage works differently from Ganondorf's Triforce of Power.

Likewise, the disembodied form does not show weakness.

I didn't say it was a 'weakness' however this does show an inability to return to Hyrule - remember that Link couldn't escape the corrupted Hyrule/Twilight without Midna's help since the Twili can fully control the power of Twilight.